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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-08-02

---Logopened Fri Aug 02 00:00:36 2013
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02:18<dihedral>greetings
02:21<Xaroth|Work>sup dih
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03:36<__ln__>http://metro.co.uk/2013/07/27/man-builds-fully-functional-boeing-737-flight-simulator-in-his-sons-bedroom-3900819/
03:37<@planetmaker>moin
03:37<Xaroth|Work>o/
03:39<Xaroth|Work>only a few more packets to turn into events \o/
03:41<@planetmaker>:-)
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03:55<peter1139>could've done a better job with the screens
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04:11<aquse>hai
04:19<krinn>hi
04:28<@Alberth>o/
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05:25<Jogio>hi
05:26<@Alberth>o/
05:32<Jogio>@planetmaker: can you look at STR_AI_CONFIG_NONE. It's just "(none)" in english and translated as "(keine)". But in the game script selection menu it has to "(keines)" I think.
05:34<@planetmaker>but AI config != game script config, no?
05:34<Jogio>If it's possible to do something with genders, can you look at it please. Otherwise maybe just change the string to "-"
05:34<@planetmaker>or is it the same string?
05:34<Jogio>yes I think
05:35<Jogio>I found it ingame, and thought it has to be fixed
05:36<@Alberth>there is only one "CONFIG_NON" string
05:37<@Alberth>STR_AI_CONFIG_CAPTION :{WHITE}AI/Game Script Configuration <-- gs window uses AI prefix, it seems
05:37<@planetmaker>looking at it ingame, I see it *only* used for the GS
05:38<Jogio>hmm
05:38<@Alberth>probably just the window prefix
05:38<@planetmaker>yeah, likely, Alberth
05:38<Jogio>i try to clean AI folder for testing
05:39<@planetmaker>the AIs show as "Zufällige KI" which is greyed-out when not in use
05:39<@planetmaker>as you set the number of competitors in the top
05:40<@Alberth>STR_AI_CONFIG_CHANGE_GAMESCRIPT :Game Script <-- that confirms it
05:41-!-Aristide [~quassel@37.175.193.28] has joined #openttd
05:42<@planetmaker>Alberth, sounds like something to refactor when I'm bored... if that ever happens :D
05:42<@Alberth>a bored planetmaker? unlikely to happen :)
05:42<@planetmaker>^
05:43<@Alberth>at some point we'll change the window to more GSes :)
05:43<@planetmaker>:-)
05:43<@planetmaker>tbh, that does make sense
05:43<@planetmaker>to be able to combine town growth with nocargoal... or similar
05:43<@planetmaker>but I also see *many* problems ahead that road :-)
05:43<Aristide>Hi planetmaker and Alberth =)
05:43<@planetmaker>we end up in a new NewGRF land-like thing ;-)
05:44<@Alberth>s/problems/challenges/
05:44<@planetmaker>^ that's the spirit! :-)
05:44<@Alberth>well, I have plenty of those too :)
05:45<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
05:45<@planetmaker>if we have no challenges and tasks anymore we anyway could start digging. So, I guess, it's good this way :D
05:47<@Alberth>hi Aristide
05:47<@planetmaker>helo Aristide
05:50<Aristide>=)
05:50<Aristide>How are you ?
05:53<@Alberth>warm :)
05:54<@planetmaker>warm is the friendly description
05:54<peter1139>so when do we get occulus rift support?
05:54<@Alberth>you don't have a patch for it?
05:55<@planetmaker>peter1139, I'm sure you have a patch? ;-)
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06:00<LordAro>/o
06:05<@Alberth>\o
06:07<@planetmaker> /o
06:08<peter1139>well... no
06:08<@Alberth>bummer, so it's going to be a non-trivial addition :(
06:09<peter1139>but hey, i have rgb company colours somewhere ;p
06:13<@planetmaker>:-)
06:14<@planetmaker>maybe we should abandon 8bpp palette and do an auto-conversion of that to 32bpp. Non-trivial for the animation, but likely feasible ;-)
06:14<@planetmaker>and nicely slows down game :-P
06:17<peter1139>eh, it's already done for 32bpp blitters
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06:22<LordAro>this is most impressive: http://blog.kaspersky.com/the-history-of-programming/
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06:27<peter1139>"Back in 1992 computers were basically smart calculators with big screens (this is not a joke, kids)."
06:27<peter1139>well that's pretty bullshit
06:30<peter1139>"note that this is 1992 and there’s no Windows yet"
06:30<peter1139>wtf?
06:31<krinn>and i think the gathering was bigger
06:31<peter1139>people were making demos way before then
06:32<peter1139>factually that article is a load of tosh
06:32<krinn>and the assembly wasn't about the coding language (even for intro and 64k compete it was imply), but about been a group, many demo were made in c & pascal and some part in assembly, the speed wasn't the key, the challenge was the result
06:44<dihedral>and they don't even mention mac at that time?
06:44<dihedral>OS6 i think it was at that time
06:45<krinn>i remember demo on apple II, but the demoscene concept comes from amiga i think because of the battle crackers were doing with their cracktro
06:52<__ln__>peter1139: today computers are smart calculators with small screens
06:54<krinn>and it wasn't big screens, but small screens, inside big monitors yeah
06:59<krinn>any of you had use cthugha ? (the oscilloscope proggy, not the cthulu god)
07:00<@planetmaker>btw, anyone feel to comment on my suggestion to move the off-topic forum et al below the on-topic forms over at tt-f? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=67263
07:00<@planetmaker>please drop a note / your thought there :-)
07:02<krinn>i'm not sure i get it, want move general at last pos ?
07:03<dihedral>planetmaker, i only ever visit http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=55 :-P
07:03<@Alberth>it seems like a useful position, fitting below "read this first"
07:03<@Alberth>the only weird forum is the off-topic forum, but moving that on its own would also be weird
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07:09<peter1139>planetmaker, it is tt-forums, not openttd forums :p
07:10<@planetmaker>peter1139, the point is, that I find it actually very weired to have off-topc stuff first
07:11<peter1139>then you should have transport tycoon sections first
07:11<@planetmaker>also things like forum feed-back etc is not exactly... a main forum imho and can well be at the bottom
07:11<peter1139>really we should have our own forums
07:11<peter1139>then you can do single sign on the and like
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07:12<@planetmaker>what good would it do to have our own forums with tt-f that well-established?
07:12<peter1139>quite
07:13<roboboy>you would get people on both sites having to have two usernames and so on so you'd almost lose the benifits of single signon
07:14<dihedral>planetmaker, why care?
07:14<@planetmaker>dihedral, it's really only about the question "is it sensible to have off-topic stuff go first?"
07:14<peter1139>well it's owen's forums, he can do what he likes :)
07:15<@planetmaker>I usually never see the forum sorting view as I go by the "what's new" view. Just noticed this IMHO oddity yesterday
07:15<@planetmaker>peter1139, that's not the question either
07:15<@planetmaker>of course he can.
07:15<peter1139>so you never noticed, and now you are wanting change?
07:15<peter1139>that's illogical too :p
07:15<@planetmaker>it strikes me as odd. And it will be what (new) users see.
07:15<peter1139>no
07:16<@planetmaker>A forum which cares about off-topic a lot. but not about on-topic as it puts it below
07:16<peter1139>new openttd users will see http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=55
07:16<@planetmaker>will they?
07:16<peter1139>that's the forum.openttd.org link
07:16<krinn>tbh planetmaker i even think it's a wise position, put "trash" forum bellow and people won't use it but trash on-topic forum
07:16<@planetmaker>I know
07:16<@Alberth>planetmaker: they see "General" above the group
07:16<krinn>and you'll get a zillion obama thread in first one, so openttd one :)
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08:18<dihedral>planetmaker, if you were setting up a new community i would think that is a good question to ask. as the forums have existed for i don't know how long, i would beleve that discussion a restructure on that note is a waste of time
08:20<@planetmaker>dihedral, it's not the first time to move sections around...
08:21<@planetmaker>it's not like anything goes away or is added. Just the order of stuff changed
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08:44<peter1139>gah, bloody TN screens
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08:53<dihedral>planetmaker, in that case i don't care, like i said i only ever visit ?f=55 :-P
08:54<aquse>planetmaker: Your avatar on the forums, what is it? Looks like a really old gas mask that has been stonified with a torn mouth that reveals a green pond.
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09:00<peter1139>planet.tt-forums.net is pretty quiet :p
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09:04<dihedral>Rubidium, TrueBrain: may i push news into the admin network?
09:05<TrueBrain>that is like the weirdest thing anyone has ever said to me
09:05<TrueBrain>and that means a lot
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09:06<peter1139>$10,000 - One of a kind
09:06<peter1139>5 out of 50 claimed
09:06<peter1139>that's... not really one of a kind is it?
09:06<peter1139>i'm still amused at a for-profit company trying to raise $32,000,000 on an "indie" fundraising site
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09:11<@Belugas>hello
09:11<@Alberth>o/
09:11<@Belugas>hi hi Alberth :)
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09:23<Eddi|zuHause>why is there http://wiki.openttd.org/Priority and http://wiki.openttd.org/Priority_Merge ?
09:29<@Alberth>because it is too much work to refer to the relevant page at openttdcoop?
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09:49<dihedral>TrueBrain, all - do consider, it is me :-)
09:50<dihedral>I was just thinking of some website with updates to the ingame news, and that would be possible by pushing news from openttd to the admin network :-)
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10:16<Xaroth|Work>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoQ0OXJCbaE
10:23<TrueBrain>dihedral: I think you have to remember we don't have some kind of mind-reading-machine; still no clue what you are on about :P
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10:24<TrueBrain>but I guess I can safe you some time by mentioning I won't do any feature development for anyone except my own gain :D
10:25<TrueBrain>*being all egoistic this week* :D
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10:31<Xaroth|Work>s/ this week//
10:32<TrueBrain>@whoami
10:32<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: TrueBrain
10:32<TrueBrain>just mentioning :P
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10:33<Xaroth|Work>too warm in the office to care :P
10:33<TrueBrain>I agree
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11:29<@Belugas>no arco in the offices?
11:32<Xaroth|Work>nope, only arko (dutch joke)
11:32<Xaroth|Work>(loosely translates to 'all windows can open')
11:33<Xaroth|Work>it's.. 34.4C inside atm
11:34<@Alberth>my office still has single glass in a steel frame, no insulation whatsoever :p
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11:53<dihedral>TrueBrain, that was not what i was suggesting ;-) i was more hoping for feedback
11:53<dihedral>i do it myself ;-)
11:53<dihedral>with the exception of the commit of course :-P
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12:06<megakacktus>does this variable in src/fios_gui.cpp control the save/load dialog layout?
12:06<megakacktus>https://secure.openttd.org/docs/fios__gui_8cpp_source.html#l00115
12:07<megakacktus>I mean https://secure.openttd.org/docs/fios__gui_8cpp_source.html#l00072
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12:12<LordAro>the first one is the load dialog
12:12<LordAro>the 3rd one in that file is the save dialog
12:17<ecoste>When you make a train station that's only touching the edge of an industry but still says that it supplies the good that the industry offers, it will supply 100% right?
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12:31<henrik>Good evening.
12:31<henrik>Animals and developers.
12:33<@Alberth>those sets are not mutually exclusive, I think :p
12:34<henrik>ecoste, Alberth: I wss unaware of that the number of tiles between station and industry had any relevance to production, as long as it accepts or delivers?
12:34<henrik>Or did i missunderstand your discussion.
12:34<henrik>was*.
12:35<@Alberth>there is no relevance of the distance, except acceptance/delivery indeed
12:35<@Alberth>but ecoste seemed to believe there was (as in expressing worries when touch only a corner)
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12:38<henrik>I see.
12:38<henrik>Shouldn't it be, really? B-)
12:41<@Alberth>too much micro management imho
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13:38<@Belugas>[11:32] <Xaroth|Work> nope, only arko (dutch joke) <- I remember that one, Rubidium told and explained me :)
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25645 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2013-08-02 17:45:35 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>estonian - 58 changes by KSiimson
13:45<@DorpsGek>german - 3 changes by Jogio
13:45<@DorpsGek>italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<@DorpsGek>turkish - 2 changes by wakeup
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14:12<Wolf01>hello
14:15<@Alberth>hello
14:16<Xaroth|Work>where did the news setting menu option move to :o
14:16<@Alberth>advanced settings
14:17<Xaroth|Work>ah
14:17<frosch123>same place as where the difficulty settings moved :p
14:18<Xaroth|Work>:o
14:21<frosch123>oh btw. if you can find different translations for the two "all settings" strings, i would be happy :p
14:21<frosch123>well, not translations, but original strings
14:28<dihedral>Xaroth, what do you think of geting news items pushed to the admin port?
14:28<frosch123>most are company specific
14:28<frosch123>except if you got for all production changes
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14:29<Xaroth|Work>I'
14:29<Xaroth|Work>would rather have the infrastructure stats :P
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14:30<dihedral>actually - seeing as game scripts can interact with the admin port.... one could pass all details on one does not get
14:31<Xaroth|Work>:|
14:31<dihedral>what's wrong with that?
14:32<Xaroth|Work>it's a workaround
14:32<dihedral>no it's not
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14:32<dihedral>it's actually a perfectly valid way of extending the admin port without patching the game
14:32<@Alberth>imho, if you want details, spectate the game
14:33<frosch123>or an excel plugin
14:33<dihedral>hehe
14:34<Xaroth|Work>Alberth: isn't that the whole point of the admin port
14:34<Xaroth|Work>we get the economy info, the vehicle stats
14:34<Xaroth|Work>afterwards infrastructure stats were added
14:35<Xaroth|Work>so at that point it should also have been added to the admin port
14:35<@Alberth>where is the point to stop, is the question
14:35<frosch123>anyway, if you can write the newgrf and map setup and the monthly nocargogoal results into a database, that would make http://wiki.openttd.org/NoCarGoal a lot more detailed
14:36<@Alberth>frosch123: for who?
14:36<frosch123>for once to automate it :p
14:36<dihedral>the evonomy info are stats on companies
14:36<@Alberth>ie what is it to the non-watcher of the game, how to curve of deliveries runs?
14:36<dihedral>not on industries
14:36<frosch123>and to figure out what numbers make actually sense, for different game lengths
14:37<frosch123>Alberth: anyway, the point to stop would be when you can install a passive gamescript (one which only queries informaiton, but cannot run commands) via the admin port
14:37<@Alberth>imho nocargoal doesn't give enough information, it should tell me estimated cargo amount at the end
14:38<Xaroth|Work>frosch123: you could use a passive gamescript to provide the dimensions of the map
14:38<frosch123>i don't think it is linear
14:38<Xaroth|Work>yet they are in the welcome packet
14:38<Xaroth|Work>the fact it's a capability of one section should not mean it cannot be included in another
14:38<frosch123>Xaroth|Work: currently there is only one gamescript at most :p
14:38<@Alberth>it's definitely not linear, as we continue to push the network to higher production
14:38<frosch123>main reason to limit it to one was to avoid conflicts
14:39<frosch123>but there are no conflicts if only one is allowed to do real stuff
14:39<Xaroth|Work>frosch123: gamescripts are for interacting with the game
14:39<Xaroth|Work>admin port is for administrators
14:39<Xaroth|Work>you suggest using the game-interacting area to provide for admins
14:39<@Alberth>frosch123: my main point of when to stop was more about what do you log and what not, ie Alberth added a / track tile at position X at time Y ????
14:39<frosch123>well, call it adminscript then :p
14:40<Xaroth|Work>Alberth: we already have that!
14:40<dihedral>Xaroth, if there was no point in the communication between the two, there would be no packets for it ;-)
14:40<dihedral>besides - what would you do with infrastructure updates
14:40<frosch123>something which allows sending squirrel snippets across the admin port, executing them with the passive parts of the script api, and somehow get the result
14:40<Xaroth|Work>dihedral: detect when somebody destroys hundreds of pieces of track?
14:40<@Alberth>Xaroth|Work: crazy!
14:41<frosch123>Xaroth|Work: when did that last happen?
14:41<dihedral>Xaroth, analyze the docommands which are already present
14:41<frosch123>there are quotas on such actions today
14:42<dihedral>frosch123, they are on terra forming
14:42<dihedral>not on removing your own tracks
14:42<frosch123>terra forming, planting trees and clearing tiles
14:42<frosch123>3 independent sets
14:42<frosch123>but ok, i don't know whether the clearing also considers owned tiles
14:43<@Alberth>you naughty frosch123, you removed your own line, just like that! :p
14:44<frosch123>i think it applies to all dynamite things
14:44<frosch123>not to track conversion, removing signals or similar
14:45<frosch123>but removing signals requires more skill, so unlikely to happen
14:45<frosch123>you need ctrl or so
14:45<@Alberth>good, good, I'll just change the track type then :p
14:46<frosch123>yeah, might be fun when coop uses purr
14:46<frosch123>just randomly change some colors :p
14:50<@planetmaker>I have to agree though with xaroth. It doesn't make sense to need a GS in order to log XX with the admin port
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14:50<@planetmaker>if it is usual game data
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14:50<frosch123>there are infinitely many statistics
14:51<@planetmaker>of course. But for instance infrastructure is already counted
14:51<@planetmaker>by the game. So... it's not like it's really adding anything
14:51<frosch123>vehicle profit is also counted
14:51<frosch123>ever per group
14:51<frosch123>number of stations is counted
14:51<dihedral>planetmaker, it is the easiest clean solution i can think of, to get hold of data you want which is not available directly
14:51<frosch123>least profitable vehicle is checked
14:52<frosch123>it just does not make sense to add every stupid statistic to the admin port
14:52<frosch123>either allow adding custom statistics, or none
14:52<dihedral>and it uses the json interface between the two to its full potential :-)
14:52<frosch123>or very basic ones, like those we also display when joinnig a multiplayer game
14:52<dihedral>no more patching the game for such stuff
14:53<@Alberth>dihedral: yeah right, it just moves from patching the game to patching the squirrel interface :p
14:53<frosch123>alternatively to squirrel you could also try sql :p
14:54<dihedral>Alberth, wrong. it makes USE of squirrel, rather than patching ;-)
14:54<dihedral>its an interface that is present, why not use it
14:54<frosch123>SELECT sum(profit_last_year) FROM vehicles WHERE vehtype='TRAIN' AND owner='1';
14:54<dihedral>LOL
14:54<@Alberth>dihedral: but can you query everything that you want in squirrel?
14:54<frosch123>how hard would that actually be?
14:54<@Alberth>just select? not very
14:54<dihedral>Alberth, you get way more information in the GS
14:54<frosch123>to add a SELECT sql parser, and to define an table-like interface to the pools?
14:55<@planetmaker>I could tell you a point of contact for that question ;-)
14:55<dihedral>planetmaker, let my guess 'fuzzy little ass' :-D
14:55<@planetmaker>look through the server list...
14:55<dihedral>oh
14:56<frosch123>SELECT count() FROM tiles WHERE tiletype='TREE'; :p
14:56<dihedral>still, i have to think of luukland servers ... yet again :-D
14:56<@planetmaker>haha, frosch123 :-)
14:56<dihedral>GS and admin port have means of communicating between them
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14:57<dihedral>so rather than showing people patches to openttd that introduce what they are looking for, it would be an interesting thing to open up peoples minds to scripting a GS which provides exactly that
14:58<dihedral>i think that is an awesome approach
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15:00<andythenorth>o/
15:00<@Alberth>hi andy
15:01<@planetmaker>moin andythenorth
15:01<andythenorth>thought experiment: if I could buy (and own) industries, how would their profit be calculated? What would the newgrf spec be?
15:02<andythenorth>I know it's not in scope for a transport game...but what if?
15:02<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/related_strings.png I added related strings, but the table needs a bit of work
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15:03<@Alberth>if you want to make it interesting, you should be able to set buy and sell prices
15:03<dihedral>heh
15:04<ecoste>Would be nice for MP.
15:04<andythenorth>Alberth: can't start eints...I guess I need to rebuild some rights file(s)?
15:04<ecoste>mm Why did my name change.
15:04<dihedral>create IronOreTycoon
15:04-!-ecoste is now known as AquSe
15:04<andythenorth>industry owning would be an alternative strategy for money making, and might be interesting for GS
15:04<@Alberth>andythenorth: euhm, yeah, I moved several data files to *_example.dat
15:05<@Alberth>andythenorth: and removed the admin entry in 'rights.dat'
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.dkriesel.com/en/blog/2013/0802_xerox-workcentres_are_switching_written_numbers_when_scanning <--- wtf?
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15:07<@planetmaker>AquSe, you asked earlier. See what it is: https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/107191069901530811927/albums/5588142349480607121/5588142384912478386?pid=5588142384912478386&oid=107191069901530811927
15:07<AquSe>Hahaha, now it makes sense.
15:10<AquSe>Mmm I left my server running for 3 hours. My brother's main town is only at 2.5k while mine is at 11k. He has like 30 ships going to it and from it, while mine just has 60 buses connected to other cities. I guess buses ftw?
15:11<@Alberth>perhaps the combined covered area of bus stations is bigger?
15:12<AquSe>Possibly, he has not that many bus stations transfering in his.
15:13<@Alberth>adequately handling all pax is not that important, more regular visiting the stations, and moving some pax
15:14<@Alberth>ie keep good stattion ratings
15:14<andythenorth>so industry could just make arbitrary profts per month
15:14<AquSe>pax?
15:14<andythenorth>or could be based on cargo rates
15:14<andythenorth>some industries could be more profitable than others (good / bad management)
15:15<andythenorth>newgrf could set a multiplier for profit via cb
15:15<krinn>or yours is city, and his not : http://wiki.openttd.org/Towns#Cities
15:15<Xaroth|Work>dihedral: how do you expect to extract information from the savegame
15:15<frosch123>andythenorth: obviously they should be more profitable if the transport is cheap, i.e. short distance
15:15<andythenorth>frosch123: track each cargo packet? o_O
15:15<AquSe>Nah, both cities. And I already read the wiki although it's kind of confusing.
15:15<Xaroth|Work>I can extract docommand stuff from the admin port np
15:16<Xaroth|Work>but not when just connected
15:16<krinn>AquSe, pax : passengers
15:16<Xaroth|Work>I can't see how much of anything is built
15:16<frosch123>andythenorth: already done?
15:16<Xaroth|Work>hence, it'd be nice for the server to tell the admin port that
15:16<Xaroth|Work>just like the server tells all kinds of info when asked
15:16<andythenorth>frosch123: so industry could track all originating packets, and the amount spent on transport?
15:17<Xaroth|Work>and no offence, but claiming 'there are ways around that' or 'how far do we want to go' are excuses.
15:17<frosch123>siliconvalley does that
15:18<frosch123>Xaroth|Work: it certainly makes more sense to add a method which can supply you with any statistic, rather than adding 255 random fixed statistics
15:18<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, that's pretty amazing! specially for such a company, and what a odd "bug" seriously, amazing
15:19<Xaroth|Work>frosch123: in an ideal way the statistics system would be dynamic, but that all depends on how far we can go with newgrf
15:19<frosch123>newgrf?
15:20<Xaroth|Work>well, if you go for -all- stats, you also want to get train info and industry info
15:20<Xaroth|Work>which is subject to newgrfs
15:20<frosch123>yeah, and the script api has all that stuff
15:21<Xaroth|Work>true that
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15:33<AquSe>Anyone gonna be watching The International?
15:34<frosch123>wasn't Xaroth|Work the dota guy here?
15:34<@planetmaker>AquSe, we don't watch it. We sing it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale
15:35<AquSe>planetmaker: lol
15:35<frosch123>planetmaker: i guess we missed the chance last week :)
15:35<@planetmaker>ui we should have ;-)
15:36<frosch123>we could have tried to tell belugas that's it completely normal to do that in europe
15:36<@planetmaker>:D
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15:36<frosch123>also your neighbours might then have figured out what our meeting was about :p
15:37<@planetmaker>:-P
15:37<@planetmaker>tycoonez for the masses!
15:37<@planetmaker>tycoonez is opium for the people!
15:40<dihedral>i call bullshit
15:41<AquSe>Are airplanes OP?
15:41<frosch123>enable infrastructure maintenance
15:42<frosch123>or use av8
15:42<frosch123>if you do both, you might bankrupt :p
15:42<krinn>fix: if you do both, you bankrupt :p
15:42<dihedral>Xaroth, personally i see no use for infrastructure updates, sorry. And my hint towards using GS, if you do not like it, that might be your loss
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15:43<dihedral>sorry
15:43<AquSe>heh
15:43<frosch123>AquSe: airplanes in ottd are like protoss in sc2 :p
15:43<frosch123>easy mechanics, weak in higher levels
15:43<AquSe>Shut your dirty mouth, I play Protoss.
15:43<frosch123>:p
15:43<frosch123>nailed it!
15:43<AquSe>lol
15:44<dihedral>lol @ frosch123
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>again with the *other* sc2
15:45<frosch123>there is no other sc2
15:45<AquSe>Why the hell does it say 67% transported on an industry, but my trucks don't pick anything up and are just empty QQ
15:45<frosch123>there is sc2 and sc2000
15:46<frosch123>and s2, and s2.5 (or was it called s2ng?)
15:47<frosch123>but well s1 was more fun anyway
15:48<@planetmaker>was a great game :-)
15:49<AquSe>Still is :#
15:49<@planetmaker>it looks quite dated meanwhile :-)
15:49<AquSe>Well, yeah.
15:49<@planetmaker>more than ttd
15:50<frosch123>no, unpatched ttd looks more dated than s1
15:50<AquSe>TTD looks fairly new for some reason. The graphix are being updated I suppose?
15:50<AquSe>Well, yeah.
15:50<frosch123>just ottd makes it less dated
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15:51<@planetmaker>openttd makes a hell of a difference there, yes. Doesn't make it look modern either ;-)
15:51<frosch123>well, most important for playability is screen resolution
15:51<frosch123>you can play s1 on 800x600, while ttd only does 640x480
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15:54<@planetmaker>true, that makes a difference
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15:57<frosch123>hmm, or do i misremember the s1 resolution
15:57<frosch123>let's check :p
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16:00<Eddi|zuHause>s2.5 is a "fan" project, s2tng is a commercial product
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>s1 had an "svga mode"
16:01<frosch123>hmm, it even runs with 1290 x 960
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it was a fairly large resolution
16:01<frosch123>that's way more than graphics cards supported back then
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>but i thought it was something 1024-ish
16:02<frosch123>so, it's a really generic vesa implemenation :)
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe it dynamically detected the largest available at 256 colours?
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes, s1 came with vesa drivers
16:03<frosch123>well, dosbox does not need a driver
16:03<frosch123>it already has a vesa bios
16:04<frosch123>ah, s1 lacks a fast forward
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>i think i had lots of random crashes with s1
16:04<frosch123>it always crashed for me when exiting
16:04<frosch123>cannot remember ingame crashes
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>it usually crashed on startup, unless i used a special boot procedure
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>and when run in windows it couldn't save
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>and something prevented me from using SVGA mode
16:06<frosch123>ah, right, it did not run with nwdos' emm386, you had to use himem
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, something like that
16:06<frosch123>i had something like 3 y/n questions in my config.sys
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>and i always had some graphics error on the left border, like a blinking line
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>i had a batch script that replaced config.sys/autoexec.bat depending on what game i selected
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>i even made it draw boxes with escape-sequences for positioning the cursor
16:08<frosch123>hmm, i wonder whether s1 uses palette animation
16:08<frosch123>for stuff like water and trees
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>i only know that civ1 used palette animation for water
16:09<frosch123>the water animation is quite good actually
16:10<frosch123>hmm, trees are not palette animated
16:10<frosch123>they change shape :)
16:10<frosch123>so, unlikely that only the water would do then
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it's probably sprite animation, like people etc.
16:11<frosch123>hmm, i guess s1 is in general more advanced than ttd
16:11<frosch123>though it is a year older
16:11<frosch123>it even has cargodist :p
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>it had a weird pathfinder, i think. one that tried to find a path with the most flags inbetween
16:12<frosch123>and i just cannot remember whether ttd used dos4gw
16:13<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: least flags
16:13<frosch123>not most :p
16:13<frosch123>you can use that for routing
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>that's not what the manual said
16:13<frosch123>i did not read manuals at that time
16:14<frosch123>but i certainly made sure that all busy paths had length 2
16:14<frosch123>and that paths were "timetabled"
16:14<frosch123>s1 does not have breakdowns either, just economical regression due to switching soldiers :p
16:15<frosch123>s/gr/c/
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16:15*andythenorth plays openttd
16:15<andythenorth>more cdist madness
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16:18<frosch123>it's actually quite impressive how technically advanced s1 is compared to other games of that time
16:18<frosch123>stuff like smooth landscape shading
16:18<krinn>what is s1 ? simcity, starcraft... ?
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i just misread that part
16:18<frosch123>settlers
16:18<krinn>ah yes settlers
16:19<frosch123>oh, i lost
16:19<frosch123>apparently you have to build a castle, and cannot just watch the computers
16:19<+michi_cc>frosch123: I can't find any dos4gw in my copy of TTD, but the exe has a copyright string by PharLab in the fist bytes.
16:19<frosch123>oh, but i can continue the game anyway
16:20<Xaroth|Work>AquSe: yes, I might.
16:20<krinn>michi_cc, some game were using it inside their own exe
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>man, this manual is really falling apart :p
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>but i can't find the section i'm looking for
16:21<+michi_cc>krinn: Why do you think I've mentioned what's at the start of the EXE? :)
16:21<krinn>michi_cc, why do think i'm able to think ? :)
16:22<+michi_cc>The PharLap variant was called something like 386 DOS Extender or something like that, and was based on VCPI instead of DPMI like dos4gw and some others.
16:23<+michi_cc>TTD using dos4g*w* instead of dos4g would have been quite weired anyway, as the w specifically indicates bundled with Watcom compiler.
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have TTO on this computer (anymore)
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16:25<krinn>remind me bad days where i must tweak and battle with qemm to play a game
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>lots of games started with a "dos4gw" message. i can't really remember which ones
16:26<krinn>but nothing could beat ultima7 when speaking about memory hell
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>i remember TTO had some display about how much memory it used in the credits
16:28<krinn>i remember tto add network play while most game only offer modem network play by that time
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>never really had a network to try this stuff
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>people said orion2 was totally broken in that it took ages to continue
16:30<frosch123>oh, indeed, ttd allows me to sellect serial, modem (dial) and network ipx
16:30<frosch123>(dos version)
16:30<krinn>played ttd with a friends at home it was amazing
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16:30<frosch123>was there any network standard for dos? or did cs add a network driver to ttd? :o
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>allegedly tto desynced a lot
16:31<krinn>frosch123, ipx always
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>IPX became fairly standard at that time
16:31<frosch123>i remember novell networks, but nothing except novell stuff supported that
16:32<frosch123>there was some simple space fighter game included in novell dos :p
16:32<Xaroth|Work>I remember getting taught about novell networks
16:32<krinn>but the game was using rs232
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember trying to set up a network, but it never worked until win95 ran on both machines
16:32<frosch123>with a 20m bnc cable with my brother
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i remember that game. but i played it only in singleplayer
16:33<krinn>oh bnc, first game with it was doom for me :P
16:34<frosch123>well, it was faster than running with floppy disks from one room to another :p
16:35<krinn>it was cheaper than modem, man! france telecom has always been vampires
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>copying files between computers we always used laplink and a parallel cable
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16:36<krinn>never owned one parallel, only the rs232 version, that need something special but i don't remember what
16:37<frosch123>there was some parallel or serial copying tool which completely broke the fat once :s
16:37<frosch123>as if it implemented file system drivers itself
16:38<frosch123>or even gave raw sector access to the remote site :p
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>hm, weird. i can run s1 in dosbox, but if i make it fullscreen, the music is broken
16:39<krinn>ah found it, cable was null modem
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16:58<AquSe>When you change the config file and run an old save, will it use the new config file or it has the original one that it ran on saved?
16:59<krinn>the one saved
16:59<AquSe>Ah man that sucks ): Can't turn on auto renew now QQ
16:59<krinn>?
16:59<krinn>load save game / turn on autorenew
16:59<Xaroth|Work>can
16:59<Xaroth|Work>can't you change that while playing?
16:59<Xaroth|Work>I mean..
17:00<Zuu>AquSe: You can open advanced options from within the game. If the setting is not in there, you can still use the in-game console and the set command to set a setting.
17:01<Zuu>The only exception are a few settings that cannot be changed in a running game. However, autorenew shouldn't be one of those.
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17:06<AquSe>MMm, I just checked the setting in console and it says that engine_renew in on.
17:08<AquSe>renew_keep_length What does this do? Can't find explanation anywhere.
17:08<dihedral>Xaroth, thinking about it, numbers of vehicles, profit and ratings, etc. should be enough to give you an idea about the size of the networks
17:08<frosch123>AquSe: it's the wagon removal thingie in the autoreplace gui
17:10<@planetmaker>I believe we should think of a good way to make autorenew and autoreplace use the (visually) same interface
17:10<AquSe>Engine_renew_months 4, engine_renew_money 300000, renew_keep_length 1, engine_renew 1.
17:10<AquSe>Yet vehicles don't get replaced when I send them for service. They're like 5 years past their old stage and I have more than 300000.
17:10<@planetmaker>and the model is still available?
17:11<AquSe>Yeah, the very first bus.
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17:11<imachine_>hello
17:11<frosch123>check the news items
17:11<imachine_>I have issues with road vehicles and one-way carriageways.
17:11<@planetmaker>AquSe, no breakdowns?
17:11<AquSe>A lot of breakdowns
17:11<imachine_>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=36342 <- like so, only I use 1.3.2
17:12<imachine_>this issue still persists, like in that 2008 thread. anyone can help shed some light on this?
17:12<imachine_>are there any patches available for this functionality?
17:12<krinn>if i foreach a var and remove item in that var wile doing it, the foreach rerun iteself?
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17:13<@planetmaker>imachine_, no patch needed. Vehicles do overtake. But they need be reasonably faster. And reasonably long straight patch. And non-articulated
17:14<@planetmaker>thus the impression easily may be that they never overtake
17:14<@planetmaker>and they don't if one of them is articulated
17:14<AquSe>Autorenew only needs to be set in the server config to work, nothing else from the client is needed rite?
17:14<@planetmaker>thus might depend on your vehicle NewGRFs
17:14<frosch123>AquSe: it's a company setting
17:15<frosch123>you set it per company
17:15<frosch123>you must have joined a company to see the actual value resp. change it
17:15<imachine_>planetmaker, but, what about breakdowns.
17:16<imachine_>planetmaker, there's one empty lane, I think they should choose a lane similarly to quantum mechanics with station visiting. otherwise, at least overtake the broken down vehs.
17:16<AquSe>frosch123, so you mean if a company gets created when autorenew is off, the autorenew for that company is gonna be off or wat :3 I'm confused.
17:17<imachine_>planetmaker, I see otherwise no reason to build one way roads other than directing my traffic - it does not help congestion much if it's still one lane that is used most of the time.
17:17<@planetmaker>yes, there's little other reason than directing traffic
17:17<frosch123>AquSe: new cmopanies start with the client-side default settings of the company founder
17:17<imachine_>planetmaker, congestion is important, later in game.
17:17<@planetmaker>yes, one could improve vehicle behaviour there.
17:17<@planetmaker>patches welcome :-)
17:17<imachine_>especially with FIRS, where you do a lot of transporting more into the game.
17:18<imachine_>imachine_, I setup 2 public servers ;-P
17:18<imachine_>that's my contrib so far ;-)
17:18<frosch123>AquSe: everyone part of the company can change it later on
17:18<AquSe>frosch123: How?
17:18<frosch123>with the gui?
17:18<frosch123>go to advances settings
17:18<frosch123>set the filter appropiately
17:18<frosch123>and enable it
17:19<AquSe>Yea
17:19<AquSe>I see now
17:19<imachine_>planetmaker, so they won't overtake broken down vehs and it's unknown to you if any plans are otw regarding this behaviour?
17:19<frosch123>if it fails, checks the news items
17:19<AquSe>I was wondering why auto renew wasn't there, there were the filters.
17:19<AquSe>There I turned it on.
17:19<frosch123>or send one of the vehicles manually to a depot for stopping and press the upgrade butto in the depot
17:19<@planetmaker>there are no plans as far as I know, imachine_
17:20<@planetmaker>People patch and modify what bothers them most :-)
17:20<AquSe>frosch123: Yeah I just turned it on and send every single bus for servicing, it works now. Thanks.
17:21<AquSe>Cya erryone, gonna go to sleep.
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17:23<krinn>so guys: altering value in the foreach made the foreach reloop?
17:25<+glx>never a good idea to do that ;)
17:25<krinn>looks like... i have count()=4 and it loop 8 times
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17:39<imachine_>planetmaker, okies, cheers.
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17:55<Eddi|zuHause>oh i remember it now... a large number of soldiers entering/exiting your castle totally cripples your transport network
17:57<frosch123>yeah, you need to separate soldiers and cargo :)
17:57<frosch123>independent transport networks :)
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>well i built two warehouses but they aren't getting done because the cargo is not transported :p
17:58<frosch123>i always wanted some game whcih combines s1 (but without mine lifetime), colonization (education) and ttd (transport)
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>well widelands has experienced workers and stuff :p
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>and they even implemented evicting experienced workers to exchange with inexperienced ones
18:01<frosch123>but it also has mine lifetime
18:01<frosch123>which i should try to patch out the next time i play it :p
18:02<frosch123>anyway, i won't colonization style transportation
18:02<frosch123>just with yapf and proper orders
18:02<frosch123>settlers 2 style transportation is boring
18:02<Xaroth|Work>lol, valve is having issues with their network
18:03<Xaroth|Work>146k viewers through the dota2 client
18:03<frosch123>s1 transportation was somewhat interesting, but not something for the long run
18:03<frosch123>s2 transportation is just boring, esp. with the s2 production levels
18:04<frosch123>s1 mines and farms were at least able to completely flood your network
18:06<krinn>what a mind, gone make coffee, serve coffee, and back upstairs, forget my coffee cup down :(
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18:23<+glx>Xaroth: 333,014 (current) 416,806 (peek today) Dota 2 (from steam stats)
18:24<Xaroth|Work>aye, online
18:24<Xaroth|Work>half of which were watching TI3
18:24<+glx>that's almost 10% of connected players
18:24<+glx>s/players/steam users
18:25<+glx>/
18:25<Xaroth|Work>game 3 is starting now
18:25<Xaroth|Work>already 85k viewers :P
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18:49<Wolf01>'night all
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18:57<megakacktus>I'm trying to implement a text filter for the load window
18:57<frosch123>nice idea :)
18:58<megakacktus>It was suggested on the wiki
18:58<megakacktus>Sadly I'm unsure where to start
18:58<frosch123>there are multiple windows which supply text filters
18:58<frosch123>start with adding the editbox
18:59<frosch123>then connect its content with a stringfilter class
18:59<frosch123>then use the stringfilter to filter the list
18:59<Xaroth|Work>glx: 127k in-game viewers atm, and 140k watching on other streams
18:59<Xaroth|Work>it's madness
19:00<frosch123>i guess the load game list is somewhat different from other lists, so the last step might be hardest
19:00<megakacktus>frosch123: Can't you only have one textbox per window?
19:01<frosch123>maybe you can change the saveload gui to use a guilist
19:01<frosch123>no, the one textbox per window restriction was removed last year
19:01<megakacktus>I'll update the wiki then :)
19:02<frosch123>wiki page might be protected
19:04<megakacktus>Wait a minute, there isn't even an editbox in the load window, never mind :p
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19:18<megakacktus>Gtg, i'll be back later
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19:20<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i fear i didn't scale my wood production with the size of my empire...
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20:00<frosch123>night
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