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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-08-07

---Logopened Wed Aug 07 00:00:46 2013
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02:37<dihedral>good morning gents
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05:28<insulfrog>hello :)
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>i know The Ultimate Challenge for openttdcoop -> play future games without "firstred_twoway_eol"
05:45<Eddi|zuHause>and i postulate that (almost) all the constructions are still possible, with some slight modifications
05:50<montalvo>what does that do?
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05:55<@Alberth>moin Lo
05:56<@Alberth>I have a different keyboard, still getting used to it
05:56<LordAro>so you missed the tab key?
05:57<@Alberth>auto completion failed, as we also have lobsters here
05:57<LordAro>when i type "lo" it autocompletes to lobsters at this end
05:58<LordAro>i'd say that's your client, rather than your keyboard
05:58<@Alberth>fair enough :)
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>my client by default starts with the last nick that talked
06:01<@Alberth>that also fails sometimes, when you have several people discussing :)
06:03<LordAro>ah, i can also go with 'last spoke' also
06:04<LordAro>phew, that was scary - my fglrx module build failed when i updated the kernel, luckily triggering it manually seems to have done the trick
06:07<V453000>what is the point that Eddi :)
06:08<V453000>ofc most things are possible, just not as reliably
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06:28<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: the point is to reforge the way you are thinking, when suddenly the rules change :p
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06:29<V453000>I dont see how counting penalty values reforges anything
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>whatever... it's not like enlarging your horizon ever helped anybody...
06:32<V453000>wtf do you mean by that
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06:38<V453000>that isnt much Eddi :)
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08:15<roboboy>does anyone know if it's possible using php to include the servers directory listing into another page without using http?
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08:18<@Alberth>you can just access the file system for a directory listing?
08:19<roboboy>but then I have to format it :P
08:19<roboboy>I would rather the server do it for me
08:20<@Alberth>and the formatter is only accessible through http?
08:20<roboboy>and I have to get the timestamps and the type of directory entries
08:21<roboboy>well I got told the page didn't exist as there is no index file
08:21<roboboy>I presume it only works through http based on that
08:22<@Alberth>so you want to access a routine not through http, which can only be accessed through http?
08:22<roboboy>It looks like that is the case :(
08:23<@Alberth>the only other option is to duplicate/copy the formatter routine into your own code
08:23<@Alberth>(I think)
08:25<roboboy>it sounds like that is the case
08:26<@Alberth>hmm, or embed the server directory listing as a sub-page in your own page? :p
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08:26<@Alberth>(no idea if that's possible, I don't know enough of html)
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08:29<roboboy>I think I'll replicate the servers functionality
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08:37<krinn>hi guys
08:37-!-SamanthaD [] has joined #openttd
08:37<@Alberth>hi hi
08:38<krinn>hi SamanthaD
08:38<SamanthaD>hey Alberth and krinn!
08:39<SamanthaD>Does anyone know what's up with the Finnish Trainset?
08:39<krinn>it's not finish ? (ok not my best one)
08:40<SamanthaD>it's like... the steam engines cost ~20k but you get to the diesels and the electrics and they're running ~500k
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08:47<@Alberth>maybe coal is very cheap in Finland?
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08:50<SamanthaD>hmm... maybe!
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08:53<SamanthaD>why the heck doesn't `git clone` work?
08:53<SamanthaD>it's complaining that not found
08:53<SamanthaD>ah... I see
08:54<SamanthaD>I need to clone
08:55*SamanthaD has decided to use git instead of svn for tracking OpenTTD
08:56<Xaroth|Work>you can use the github repo
08:56<Xaroth|Work>and the github client
08:57<SamanthaD>I'd rather use the client I've got on my computer
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08:57<SamanthaD>why, is the github repo better for some reason?
08:57<Xaroth|Work>no, but the github client is
08:58<@Alberth>then someone needs to spend more time on the local applications, imho
08:59<SamanthaD>lots of people complain about git being confusing in its interface
08:59<SamanthaD>and honestly, it kinda is
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09:00<SamanthaD>I'm only using git because I want to maintain my own branch locally
09:00<@Alberth>it's the main reason I use hg instead
09:01<krinn>hg is easy
09:01<SamanthaD>to the mercurial!
09:01<@Alberth>hg and git can basically do the same things, but hg has a much easier ui
09:01<SamanthaD>I don't have any experience with Hg but if you folks say it's worth using instead of Git... I suppose I'll give it a shot
09:02<krinn>must be why i find it easy, i have no ui :)
09:02<@Alberth>hg is more svn-like, with commands to select what you want. git has less commands, and puts a lot of things in options to the commands
09:03<SamanthaD>and I can easily create a local branch with Hg, right?
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09:03<Xaroth|Work>the amount of commands hg has is confusing as hell
09:03<Xaroth|Work>git, especially with the github client means I don't have to think too much
09:04<Xaroth|Work>plus, it has a sane 'undo' button
09:04<Xaroth|Work>i -really- like the undo button
09:04<Xaroth|Work>as i derp around a lot
09:04<SamanthaD>don't we all ;)
09:04<@Alberth>Xaroth|Work: don't compare one VCS with a gui with another one without gui
09:05<Xaroth|Work>Alberth: I compare my experience with said VCS
09:05<Xaroth|Work>if HG doesn't have a sane gui, that's their fault
09:05<Xaroth|Work>git does, so I use it
09:05<@Alberth>git doesn't
09:05<LordAro>i'm told good things about tortoise[svn|hg|git]
09:05<@Alberth>at least plain git
09:05<Xaroth|Work>plain git, like hg, and svn, are command line client
09:05<@Alberth>SamanthaD: I have a clone to track upstream, and make local clones for experiments/patches
09:05<LordAro>well noticed :P
09:06<SamanthaD>Alberth: instead of branches?
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09:07<@Alberth>you can have branches, but if you do that in the same repo, you cannot easily compare one branch with another one, at the file system
09:07<Xaroth|Work>the gui clients are just to make things easier (if possible), and visualise things easier
09:07<SamanthaD>also, I don't like GUIs with my development tools. I had a bad experience with them in middle school where I got overdependent on my IDE
09:07<@Alberth>I found just making more clones easier, you can quickly make new copies and discard repos you messed up
09:08<@Alberth>SamanthaD: I hate guis for not being scriptable :)
09:08<SamanthaD>Alberth: Mouse pointer scripting?! ;)
09:08<@Alberth>note that clones at the same file system share the history
09:08<Xaroth|Work>SamanthaD: using them and being dependant on them are very far apart
09:09<@Alberth>SamanthaD: concurrently over 5 desktops ;)
09:09<SamanthaD>Alberth: That's okay! X11's network interface has you covered!
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09:10<@Alberth>for some reason, command-line tools seem a lot easier :)
09:11<krinn>Alberth, yeah just put the one need in a bash script, and voila, no need to remember or learn hg
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09:12<SamanthaD>I dunno... I suppose as long as you know how to use the CLI you can use the GUI too
09:12<Xaroth|Work>my deploy scripts all use the CLI; but I really can't be arsed having to type (or run the right script) stuff while developing on my desktop, when there's a perfectly useful GUI for that.
09:12<SamanthaD>it's just that when I was little I'd learn to use the GUI and then when the GUI didn't do what I needed to I'd be flat on my butt and helpless
09:13<Xaroth|Work>SamanthaD: there's google for those situations :P
09:13<@Alberth>SamanthaD: thg (tortoisehg) is very nice gui tool for examining a hg repo
09:13<Xaroth|Work>tortoise* by default offers nice interfaces
09:13<SamanthaD>and it's part of Debian!
09:14<SamanthaD>praise the great sky compiler!
09:14<@Alberth>what more can you desire! :)
09:14<blathijs>amiller: Using TortoiseSVN can be a challenge, even (especiallly?) if you know commandline svn...
09:14<SamanthaD>Alberth: A Debian backport in a year? ;)
09:14<Xaroth|Work>tsvn isn't that bad
09:15<Xaroth|Work>but the cli offers some stuff that's hard to find in tsvn
09:15<@Alberth>SamanthaD: switch to fedora :)
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09:15<SamanthaD>Alberth: I tried that a few months ago. It crashed a lot.
09:15<blathijs>Xaroth|Work: I wasn't saying it's bad, but sometimes they changed terminology in subtle ways, so you have to change the way of thinking at some points :-)
09:15<Xaroth|Work>hard to find sometimes
09:16<Xaroth|Work>thg and tgit have the same issue
09:16<@Alberth>SamanthaD: yeah, I agree it has some unstable edges every now and then
09:16<SamanthaD>I'll just stick to the CLI and maybe a program to graphically display commits
09:16<Xaroth|Work>SamanthaD: you're edging close to :P
09:17<@Alberth>searching through the commit history (hg annotate)
09:17<SamanthaD>They have a QT applet that apparently does just that already though
09:18<SamanthaD>hgview, according to apt-cache
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09:19<@Alberth>that's the package name?
09:19<@Alberth>yum doesn't know it
09:20<SamanthaD>that is the package name
09:20<SamanthaD>apt has hgview, hgview-common hgview-curses
09:20<SamanthaD>according to apt-cache, hgview is the qt4 interface so... maybe hgview-qt4?
09:22<SamanthaD>you folks are right... the mercurial CLI *is* a lot simpler than git!
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09:25<SamanthaD>yay! I know enough to use mercurial as an exceedingly complex wget!
09:25<SamanthaD>I feel hackerish now :3
09:26<LordAro>"mercurial as an exceedingly complex wget!" lol :D
09:27<SamanthaD>exceedingly complicated, bandwidth inefficient wget!
09:28<Aristide>Hi SamanthaD !
09:28<@Alberth>it pulls the entire project history, instead of just the current version
09:28<Aristide>Hi LordAro ! :)
09:28<Aristide>Hi NGC3982 :)
09:28<LordAro>hi Aristide !
09:28<SamanthaD>Alberth: That's why it's inefficient ;)
09:28-!-Aristide is now known as Citelis18
09:28<SamanthaD>hey Aristide!
09:28<Citelis18>LordAro: :)
09:28<Citelis18>SamanthaD: o/
09:29<SamanthaD>hey Citelist18!
09:29<SamanthaD>oh, right
09:29<Xaroth|Work>SamanthaD: ; the differences between git commands and hg commands
09:29<krinn>hey SamanthaD !
09:29<Xaroth|Work>I survive by that list :P
09:29<krinn>hi Citelis18
09:29<@Alberth>lol, hgview is still being added only since 2011 :p
09:29<Citelis18>Hi krinn :)
09:30<SamanthaD>I'm bookmarking that for sure!
09:30<krinn>Alberth, Latest version available: 1.7.1-r1 (love gentoo)
09:30<Citelis18>Service Temporarily Unavailable
09:30<Citelis18>The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later.
09:31<LordAro>Citelis18: github? worked for me, try again :)
09:31<Citelis18>LordAro: This website :
09:31<SamanthaD>the redhat bugtracker is bugged!
09:31<Citelis18>Proxy Error
09:31<Citelis18>The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server. | The proxy server could not handle the request GET /show_bug.cgi. | Reason: Error reading from remote server
09:31<LordAro>i get a "proxy error"
09:32<LordAro>fix your distro, Alberth :p
09:32<Citelis18>KDE > All
09:32<SamanthaD>XFCE > KDE
09:32<krinn>KDE > fat bottom gorilla
09:32<LordAro>Cinnamon > ... actually i'm not sure whether i like it yet
09:33<SamanthaD>fat bottom gorilla > Gnome3
09:33*krinn don't cares it still use gnome2
09:33<Citelis18>ALL > Gnome Shell
09:33<Xaroth|Work>SamanthaD: also explains some nice tricks (iirc it also links to that rosetta stone) you can pull off with git
09:34<SamanthaD>thanks Xaroth
09:34<SamanthaD>krinn: MATE?
09:34<Citelis18>Xaroth|Work: Fake (work)
09:34<krinn>didn't test it yet SamanthaD i don't like swap GUI/distro... and my latest try (gnome3) has calm me down for a year
09:35<Xaroth|Work>Citelis18: original.
09:35<Citelis18>My KDE desktop is GOOD !
09:35<Citelis18>Xaroth|Work: What is original ?
09:35<Xaroth|Work>your poor attempt at a joke
09:35<Xaroth|Work>it sais |Work, not |Working
09:36<SamanthaD>krinn: Ah! Maybe give it a try in a year or so. It's basically just a Gnome2 fork but somehow they managed to break stuff along the way. I haven't used it in a year or so though and never seriously.
09:37<krinn>SamanthaD, i'm not really into getting new things, that gnome2 is rock stable, it's enough for me, if i need a tools, i won't use the crappy version provide by the manager anyway
09:39<SamanthaD>well, carry on then :3
09:39<krinn>well, as long as i can maintain it without pain i will stick with it
09:39<SamanthaD>I haven't strayed from XFCE for the better part of a decade other than a few forays to try out the "new shiny thing(tm)"
09:40<SamanthaD>they haven't changed their UI significantly since then
09:40<SamanthaD>just been progressively more polished
09:40<krinn>and that's good no? if they change the UI it's not XFCE anymore
09:41<krinn>and you are using XFCE because you love the UI
09:41<krinn>that's the gnome3 stupid concept : change gnome to not be gnome.
09:41<SamanthaD>Yup! It's kinda like a cross between Gnome2 and KDE3
09:42<krinn>worst of the both world ? (kidding)
09:42<SamanthaD>no, best
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12:54<SamanthaD>Is there a convenient way for me to make mercurial update to a given SVN revision number?
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12:58<NGC3982>I guess having the feeling of living in the Groundhog Day makes for a bad day.
12:59<frosch123>SamanthaD: hg log -k r12345 --template '{rev}' | xargs hg up -r
12:59<frosch123>convenient enough? :p
12:59<SamanthaD>frosch123: Very! Thank you!
13:00<frosch123>actually the keyword might not be specific enough
13:00<frosch123>maybe you need '(svn r12345)' or so
13:00<frosch123>else it might hit on stuff like -Fix (r12345)
13:02*SamanthaD took a moment to work out what the command did
13:02<SamanthaD>that's clever!
13:03<frosch123>yeah, i learned it from alberth :)
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13:03<MadaraUchiha>Quick question
13:03<SamanthaD>frosch123: he seems like a clever guy!
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13:03<MadaraUchiha>I've read that the Difficulty Settings menu was removed from its place in the latest version.
13:03<MadaraUchiha>How can I access it (or the options it used to have, if it doesn't exist anymore?)
13:04<frosch123>difficulty and news settings were moved to advanced settings
13:04<frosch123>also mind the filter options at the top of the advanced settings
13:04<MadaraUchiha>Aha, thanks
13:04<SamanthaD>I don't think anyone ever played unmodified difficulties anyway...
13:04<frosch123>they defautl to "basic" settings", which hide a lot of the rarely needed options
13:05<SamanthaD>MardaraUchiha: But do note the filter! There's lots of difficulty-changing options that "basic" likes to hide!
13:05<MadaraUchiha>Mardara :D
13:07<SamanthaD>ah, sorry!
13:08<@Alberth>what did I do?
13:09<@Alberth>I really explained --template '{rev}' ? :o
13:10<@Alberth>well, ok, it seems to cover your needs :)
13:13<frosch123>Alberth: no, "-k"
13:14<@Alberth>ah, right, that seems more likely :)
13:16<frosch123>NGC3982: it's not only a sc2 player
13:16<NGC3982>The anime that should have ended with Zabuza.
13:18<NGC3982>Wait what. I'm wait out of context.
13:21<MadaraUchiha>@NGC3982 How uptodate are you?
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13:25<NGC3982>About what, the anime or the games?
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13:26<NGC3982>I think i ended Naruto around the Konoha attack thingy. I remember watching it as it was broadcasted, so i guesd it was a long time ago.
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13:32<SamanthaD>okay, one more stupid question: I need to find the last revision with a certian file in it (in mercurial)
13:33<SamanthaD>specifically, I need to figure out what's going on with src/table/settings.h
13:33<@Alberth>it got moved to src/table/*.ini
13:34<@Alberth>hmm, not sure what's in settings.h
13:34<SamanthaD>Alberth: Just a flat out move?
13:34<@Alberth>nah, that would be too easy :p
13:34<@Alberth>where is that settings.h file?
13:34<@Alberth>or perhaps when?
13:34<SamanthaD>anyway... my up-to-date version shows that there are two files. src/table/settings.h.postamble and a *.preamble
13:35<frosch123>well, i guess you can say that settings.h was moved into objs/settings/table/ :p
13:36<frosch123>it's now a generated file
13:36<SamanthaD>I see...
13:36<@Alberth>right, I was looking for that :)
13:37<@Alberth>what entry do you need?
13:37<SamanthaD>not sure yet
13:37<SamanthaD>I just have a patch that modified it and I was trying to find the revision that moved it so I could update to the one right before that, merge, then go forward
13:37<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25699 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2013-08-07 17:37:41 UTC)
13:37<@DorpsGek>-Fix-ish: Hopefully make the settings type filter dropdown less confusing.
13:38<@Alberth>ah, ok
13:39<SamanthaD>ah... it adds a bunch of settings
13:40<@Alberth>perhaps the first revision of a .ini file (which is svn r22172)
13:40<SamanthaD>thank you!
13:43<SamanthaD>why the heck is settings.h.postamble just an empty file?! O.o
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25700 trunk/src/lang/slovenian.txt (2013-08-07 17:45:14 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>slovenian - 21 changes by matej1245
13:46<NGC3982>You know you have a pirated version of Android when you get the error message: "You are low on battery. Please insert SIM card".
13:46<@Alberth>consistency with the other .postamble files
13:46<SamanthaD>Alberth: Thanks!
13:46<NGC3982>There isn't even hardware for a SIM card in the device.
13:46<SamanthaD>NGC3982: I dunno... I wouldn't count on it ;)
13:46<@Alberth>I cannot really find where the file disappeared
13:47<SamanthaD>Alberth: Lemmie dig around in this a bit, I might be able to figure it out
13:47<megakacktus>How exactly is the file list generated / stored? I'm having trouble setting up a filterable GUIlist :-/
13:49<@Alberth>SamanthaD: r22174 adds the new system, but without using it in the build process, so after that the switch was made
13:50<@Alberth>megakacktus: doesn't the code build a list?
13:50<frosch123>megakacktus: maybe keep the filelist generation as it is, but transfer it into a GuiList
13:50<SamanthaD>Alberth: Thank you, I'll keep that in mind.
13:50<frosch123>filelist generation is also used for console interface etc
13:51<frosch123>most lists use a Guilist<> to store/sort/filter the stuff
13:57<@Alberth>SamanthaD: ah, r22188 removes the file
14:02*SamanthaD is glad she's doing this doing this by hand
14:02<@Alberth>Luckily I have never had to deal with that so far :p
14:03<SamanthaD>there's a post 22174 update to the patch made by a third party on the forums but it diffs settings.ini
14:03<SamanthaD>and... since that's apparently a temp file now...
14:04<@Alberth>you'd need to find where the real switch is made
14:04<SamanthaD>I used her patch before
14:04<SamanthaD>I found it unreliable
14:05<SamanthaD>now maybe I know why >.<
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14:06<@Alberth>oh, it's also in r22188
14:09<megakacktus>frosch123: How would I transfer it into a GuiList? with a typedef?
14:10<frosch123>the guilist would be a member of your window
14:10<frosch123>then you have some BuildFileList ufnction tor so
14:10<frosch123>which queries the filelist using the existing functions, and adds all items to the guilist member
14:10<frosch123>then that thing is filtered and sorted
14:11<@Alberth>and displayed :p
14:16<frosch123>megakacktus: maybe take a look at the NetworkGameWindow
14:16<frosch123>i think it's kind of the easiest list with a filter
14:16<frosch123>the other lists with filters have some special stuff
14:19<megakacktus>ok... I'll see what I can do :)
14:19<frosch123>V453000: watching again?
14:20<V453000>wanted stephano to wreak all ass though :(
14:20<frosch123>yeah, it's unusual that protoss is winning :p
14:21<frosch123>but i think naniwas reaction to immediately place a second pylon for powering the gate was awesome
14:22<frosch123>anyway, all ro8 from last season are eliminated :p
14:22<frosch123>it's a game of pure luck :p
14:23<frosch123>(ok, prejuding happy here)
14:26<V453000>mhm :)
14:30<megakacktus>dumb question: what is CDECL?
14:30<frosch123>one of about infinitely many 32bit calling conventions
14:31<megakacktus>what does it stand for?
14:32<frosch123>megakacktus: enjoy 64bit, and ignore that stuff
14:32<frosch123>it's just needed to make it compile on 32bit
14:32<megakacktus>oh ok
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14:34<SamanthaD>quick question if anyone knows off the top of their head... in the translation files under the STR_CONFIG_SETTING there's a bunch of new entries that end in _HELPTEXT
14:34<Wolf01>hi o/
14:34<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
14:34<SamanthaD>anyway... the patch I'm applying is older than those
14:34<frosch123>SamanthaD: opent the advanced settings gui, and watch the bottom part closely :)
14:35<SamanthaD>right... my question is do I need to do anything special or should I just add a new entry in the translation file?
14:35<frosch123>you need to reference it from the .ini file
14:35<SamanthaD>which is autogenerated
14:36<frosch123>the .ini is not generated
14:36<@Alberth>no, the .ini is not
14:36<frosch123>.ini and .txt are source
14:37<SamanthaD>I thought we just established that esrc/table/settings.ini is autogenerated from settings.h.preamble...
14:37<SamanthaD>ah, screw it
14:37<frosch123>objs/.../settings.h is generated
14:37<SamanthaD>worst that can happen is I don't get a helptext
14:37<SamanthaD>oh! I see!
14:37<frosch123>"objs" is generated, "src" is source
14:38<SamanthaD>so, which .ini should I be editing?
14:38<frosch123>most liekly settings.ini
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14:39<SamanthaD>I can't believe I didn't see that staring me in the face >.<
14:39<SamanthaD>thanks, guys
14:39<SamanthaD>I'm going to go take a five minute break
14:39<SamanthaD>I'm obviously going crosseyed
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14:44<andythenorth>what's happened?
14:44<@Rubidium>andythenorth: you left, and then you joined again
14:45<andythenorth>sounds exciting
14:45<@Rubidium>andythenorth: nothing in between as the world revolves around you ;)
14:45<andythenorth>frick, that reminds me
14:45<andythenorth>I have to submit that bug report :(
14:45<andythenorth>have to make a savegame and everything
14:45<andythenorth>so much work :P
14:46<frosch123>and all of that only to cause work for others :p
14:47<andythenorth>the world is a sad place
14:47<frosch123>can we somehow buy some island in the southern hemisphere together?
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14:48<andythenorth>what would we do there?
14:48<frosch123>not work
14:48*andythenorth likes work
14:49<frosch123>isn't that the common dream to not do anything, and just vegatate staring straight into the sun?
14:49<andythenorth>vegetables can do that
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14:54<andythenorth>would we write code?
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15:08<megakacktus>so this is turning out to be much more complex than I original expected :(
15:12<frosch123>ottd is big and complex :p
15:12<frosch123>all custom code, few libraries
15:13<+glx>but at least a very big library ;)
15:18<andythenorth> so I had an idea about FIRS providing info to GS
15:18<andythenorth>dunno if it's useful or stupid
15:19<andythenorth>no idea how Squirrel consumes data
15:21<Xaroth|Work>it eats nuts
15:23<frosch123>andythenorth: static info or dynamic info?
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15:25<frosch123>or actually: 1) constants specific per industrytype, 2) specific per industrytype but depending on grf parameters, 3) dynamically depending on industry instance and changing over time
15:25<megakacktus>I'm trying to loop through _fios_items, which is declared from a SmallVector<T,S> template...
15:26<megakacktus>what should the type be that I'm pointing to?
15:26<frosch123>use it like a std::vector, just capitalise the member functions, and use S* as iterator
15:26<frosch123>err, T*
15:27<frosch123>nevermind, member functions are actualy vastly different
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15:30<frosch123>andythenorth: anyway, squirrel prefers to consume generic data as json
15:30<andythenorth>frosch123: constants
15:31<andythenorth>this would be outside of openttd
15:31<andythenorth>it would be compile time stuff, inserted via good old copy+paste
15:31<frosch123>inserted into what?
15:31<andythenorth>hang on
15:32<frosch123>wouldn't you rather add something to firs?
15:32<frosch123>so it is bundled with the grf, and fits to it?
15:32<andythenorth>'would rather' yes probably
15:32<andythenorth>'can'? dunno
15:32<frosch123>well, hardcoding industry ids into a script library would be a stupid solution
15:33<frosch123>that most likely just breaks
15:33<andythenorth>this was a hack idea to reduce work for GS authors having to personally maintain their script against FIRS
15:33<andythenorth>it's not optimal :)
15:33<frosch123>detecting industries on input/output cargo combinations might not be unique enough
15:33<andythenorth>it's not
15:33<andythenorth>we've had a groundhog day conversation about that kind of thing too many times :)
15:33<andythenorth>I want to add some kind of metadata to cargos
15:34<andythenorth>and maybe industries
15:34<andythenorth>maybe we should just extend newgrf spec :P
15:34<frosch123>(1) would be easy, it would just be adding a json string via a14, which scripts can read
15:34<frosch123>(2) and (3) are way more tricky, since you somehow need to isnert parameters into the json
15:34<andythenorth>this was actually wrt cargos, which is probably simpler
15:35<andythenorth>but the industry case is valid too
15:35<frosch123>what's the problem with cargos?
15:35<frosch123>scripts can identify them via cargo labels, what else do they need?
15:35<frosch123>or do their meaning change with firs parameters?
15:35<andythenorth>far as I can tell from the forum thread (waiting for a reply), a bit more info about 'intention' might be useful
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15:36<andythenorth>like, is this a good cargo for town growth?
15:36<andythenorth>this is all guesswork, no real use case yet
15:36<andythenorth>but guessing is fun
15:36<andythenorth>use cases are for paid work :P
15:37<frosch123>i rather thought about allowing newgrfs to tell scripts how the production mechanics of industries work
15:37<andythenorth>that is interesting
15:37<andythenorth>and complicated :)
15:37<frosch123>i have no idea what would be interesting about cargos
15:38<andythenorth>me neither yet
15:38<andythenorth>I want to play that GS though
15:39<frosch123>andythenorth: well, simplified like: cargo affects output few/lot, on its own/only with other cargos, unlimited/limited to 100 per month
15:39<andythenorth>yeah something like that
15:40<andythenorth>I think there is a need for something between 'totally generic' and 'GS author has to know all details of newgrf'
15:40<andythenorth>cargo labels and railtype labels have worked well imho
15:40<andythenorth>despite some arguments
15:40<frosch123>well "know all details of newgrf" will fail, considering how quickly firs economies change :p
15:40<andythenorth>point well made
15:40<andythenorth>and that's now by design, not by mistake :)
15:42<andythenorth>'cargo can make electricity' :P
15:43<frosch123>that either depends on the industry accepting it, or the script can decide from the cargolabel itself
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15:43<frosch123>there are not so many cargos overall
15:44<frosch123>scripts can easily detect the 5 they are interested in
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15:48<andythenorth>ok so maybe industries are the significant aspect
15:49<frosch123>yeah, but they depend on grf parameters, and maybe even more
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15:49<frosch123>so, we need some way to insert dynamic stuff into json strings with grfs :p
15:51<andythenorth>fun project?
15:51<frosch123>maybe :p
15:52<frosch123>should we create some examples how the result information could look like?
15:52<frosch123>to get an idea about what dynamic parts would be there
15:52<andythenorth>I am only +0.5 on the usefulness so far
15:52<andythenorth>but usefulness is over-rated :)
15:52<andythenorth>is it a neat thing to do? o_O
15:53<andythenorth>frosch123: you wrote a GS, what did you want to know about the industries?
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15:53<frosch123>well, if we have some examples we can give them to krinn and other gs authors, and make them flame us how useless the stuff is :p
15:53<andythenorth>static: 'this industry builds in towns'
15:53<frosch123>andythenorth: i made a automatic classification of cargos and industries into secondary and primary
15:54<andythenorth>using what criteria?
15:54<frosch123>but it cannot distinguish secondary from tertairy, nor rare from often
15:54<frosch123>so the goals turn out very different
15:54<frosch123>you can see the same with nocargoal
15:54<frosch123>goals are very different to achieve
15:54<frosch123>i even have a bug report for sv, that it is unbalanced in multiplayer :)
15:55<frosch123>anyway, industries have a raw/processing flag
15:55<frosch123>which constrols funding/prospecting
15:55<frosch123>that allows to classify industries into raw and processing industries
15:55<andythenorth>limited information content though
15:55<frosch123>and then i can look which industries produce what cargo
15:55<andythenorth>some info there, but not enough
15:56<frosch123>i.e. if cargo is only produced by raw, or only by processing cargos
15:56<frosch123>cargos produced by both, are dropped
15:56<frosch123>if you take a look at the debug output of sv, it prints the cargo classification at startup
15:56<andythenorth>but you had to figure all that out for yourself?
15:56<andythenorth>you can't just query the industry
15:57<frosch123>i can query the input/output cargos of the industrytypes, like the chain graph does
15:57<frosch123>and i can query funding/prospecting
15:57<andythenorth>so either that should be a GS library for reuse, or every author has to figure it out?
15:57<frosch123>maybe :p
15:57<andythenorth>we have not many GS yet, and the barrier to starting seems high
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15:58<frosch123>we can try to advertise it to zuu or krinn, so they include it into some superlib for gs :p
15:58<andythenorth>so industry is primary / secondary / tertiary seems valid
15:58<frosch123>but i don't feel like maintaining a gs library myself
15:58<andythenorth>me neither :P
15:58<andythenorth>maintaing API info in FIRS I would be happy to do
15:59<andythenorth>would also benefit from this info?
15:59<frosch123>i guess the info would be the same
15:59<frosch123>unless newgrf want to hide info from ais, and give gs extra tipps :p
16:00<andythenorth>so more detailed industry type info seems valid
16:00<frosch123>but i would rather prefer if newgrf/gs/ai team up against humans :p
16:00<andythenorth>industry can have production boosted?
16:00<andythenorth>supplying this industry should boost town growth?
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16:01<frosch123>andythenorth: "input cargo 2 affects output cargo a lot, but only together with other cargos, and only up to a soft maximum of 100 units per month" ?
16:01<andythenorth>how to express that in json?
16:02<andythenorth>FIRS uses production ratios
16:02<andythenorth>they might be valid
16:02<frosch123>i guess a map from keywords to integers
16:02<andythenorth>I am not bothered about making this totally generic; there are not many industry sets, and there are definitely _some_ similarities between ECS and FIRS
16:03<frosch123>i don't think it should contain more than 4 things per cargo
16:03<andythenorth>cargo 2: affects output cargos [1 | 2]; amount [high]; limit [100]
16:03<frosch123>else it is way too complicated for scripts
16:04<andythenorth>or express it in terms of what is needed to produce output cargos
16:05<andythenorth>dunno how
16:08<frosch123> <- some paper mill with production booster
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16:08<frosch123>"maximum_monthly_supply" for hard stockpile limits
16:09<frosch123>"recommended_monthly_supply" for production boosters that have some maximum effect at some point
16:09<frosch123>"direct_output" for stuff that is converted into output at a fixed rate
16:09-!-Sacro [~ben@] has joined #openttd
16:09<frosch123>"shortterm_output_multiplier" for stuff that increases output temporarily
16:10<frosch123>"longeterm_output_multiplier" for stuff that increases output permanently
16:10<frosch123>"minimum_transport" for stuff that must be transported from the industry, for it to be happy
16:10<frosch123>one would have to look up the weirdnesses of ecs and pbi :p
16:11<frosch123>outputcargo might also require some "reservoir_left" for pbi expiring mines
16:11<andythenorth>'recommended' is a nice idea
16:11<andythenorth>good point about PBI
16:12<frosch123>so, basically a bunch of keywords with either string, integer or float as value
16:13<frosch123>ideally only a few keywords, potentially estimating most industries of most sets approxiamtely
16:13<andythenorth>works for me
16:13<frosch123>anyone knows ecs?
16:13<andythenorth>george does :)
16:13<andythenorth>is there a way to do this without requiring all the tools (nml, grfcodec, renum) to be updated? :P
16:17<frosch123>oh, i remember there were steel mills in some set which required both coal and iore to produce anything
16:17<frosch123>so, maybe "minimum_supply_ratio"
16:17<frosch123>well, basically we need an overview of all industry mechanics there are :p
16:18<V453000>are you guys making new specs for industries or what :D
16:18<frosch123>V453000: we are trying to figure out a way, how newgrf can tell gs/ai how their industries behave
16:19<andythenorth>imho, idealy do this in a way where any group of industry author / GS author could agree to go and do something completely different to what we thought of
16:19<andythenorth>but meanwhile supporting the sets we know do exist, which aren't many
16:19<frosch123>andythenorth: anyway, some industry categorisattion like "city", "rural", .. would be entirely different
16:19<V453000>I might code my industries this year so expect anything :)
16:19<frosch123>might be rahter a list of arbitrary keywords
16:20<frosch123>though considering bananas keywords, keyword are crap
16:20<andythenorth>apply multiple
16:20<andythenorth>keywords are crap
16:20<andythenorth>make them a bit more costly: 4 letter labels or something
16:20<andythenorth>and you're only allowed 1 per industry?
16:21<andythenorth>then authors have to think harder
16:21<V453000>please make a label OMFG and I will use that
16:21<frosch123>no, 1 per industry would result in many different ones
16:22<frosch123>and usually newgrf authors do it the vehicle way and just set a flag "this vehicle is too complicated for ais" :p
16:23<frosch123>and considering banans tags, they would likely add keywords like "awesome" or their name, and even misspell them
16:24<frosch123> <- just to show it again :s
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16:26<V453000>realistic is a tag?
16:26<V453000>I should have that
16:27<V453000>anyway, good night
16:27<frosch123>boring games today :p
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16:31<andythenorth>I would definitely add an 'awesome' flag to all industries
16:34<krinn>1s reading
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16:36<krinn>you want a GS to handle FIRS ?
16:36<krinn>there's no way a GS could handle a newGRF if the newGRF don't do something to hint the GS
16:37<frosch123>read on :p
16:37<andythenorth>unrelated, but can GS change the production multiplier yet?
16:38<andythenorth>(per industry)
16:38<krinn>there's simple no way to speak with a newGRF
16:38<andythenorth>this isn't the newgrf
16:39<andythenorth>production multiplier is inherent to industry ;)
16:39<frosch123>would it work with firs?
16:39<andythenorth>not currently, but it could
16:39<krinn>well, the API cannot control that for "classic" one
16:39<andythenorth>the FIRS production boost could easily use the production multiplier
16:40<andythenorth>only reason it doesn't is because yexo wrote code that I don't understand :)
16:40<andythenorth>and I'm too lazy to restart it from scratch
16:41<frosch123>well, there is no need to, as long as there is no concept :p
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16:41<andythenorth>having GS be able to adjust production multiplier would be neat I think
16:41<frosch123>newgrf providing info to scripts via json might work
16:42<frosch123>scripts giving instructions to newgrf would definite require some special library
16:42<andythenorth>not the way I envisage it
16:42<andythenorth>GS would monkey patch random / monthly production change
16:42<andythenorth>it's up to newgrf author how that is handled :P
16:42<andythenorth>I would allow it for FIRS
16:43<andythenorth>"your entire map just went into recession, oops"
16:43<andythenorth>"workers are on strike at this industry, bad luck"
16:43<andythenorth>"you delivered 250 pax / month to this town, now the industry has new workers, well done"
16:44<andythenorth>etc :P
16:44<krinn>well, that's not in the API, nothing from GS->Industry only Industry->GS and not really a lot of function for that, just the basic
16:44<frosch123>that sounds more like scripts setting an additional production/delivery multiplier
16:44<andythenorth>my suggested method might be bad
16:44<frosch123>script sets multiplier to 0.5 -> gui says "50% of production lost"
16:44<andythenorth>but it has the advantage of being simple and following existing spec
16:45<andythenorth>and my idea works with default industry...
16:45<andythenorth>other ideas may also be good :)
16:45<frosch123>well, i don't like messing with existing methods
16:45<frosch123>add a new clean one instead
16:46<frosch123>which is cleary meant for script influence
16:46<frosch123>no convoluted thing to cover all
16:46<frosch123>it would also simplify thing for ais :p
16:46<andythenorth>no nasty patch :)
16:47<frosch123>ais and humans should be able to tell whether an industry is messed up by the grf or by the gs
16:47<frosch123>esp. when the newgrf specifies its behaviour via json
16:47<frosch123>it would be silly if industries could specify their behaviour, but gs would then change it completely again :p
16:48<krinn>frosch123, i'm not sure i get it, but looks as silly as a town production been change by the GS
16:49<krinn> /sproduciton/growrate
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17:48<Wolf01>'night all
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18:21<SamanthaD>Did OpenTTD just get a new dependency? ./configure is complaining that I don't have any video driver development files found
18:26<LordAro>did you manage to uninstall them?
18:27<SamanthaD>weird... I seem to have done so
18:27<SamanthaD>I wonder how I managed to do that?! O.o
18:28<SamanthaD>gremlins are in my computer, apparently
18:28<SamanthaD>OH! I see... libjpeg62-dev conflicts with them
18:28<SamanthaD>ah well
18:28<SamanthaD>OpenTTD > whatever I needed libjpeg62-dev for...
18:29<SamanthaD>several hours of merging...
18:29<SamanthaD>let's see if this compiles!
18:31*SamanthaD wishes the commit log was more verbose
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18:59<SamanthaD>:D VICTORY!
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21:20<megakacktus>How would one transfer FiosItems from a SmallVector to a GUIList?
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21:31<megakacktus>wait, never mind, I think i figured it out :P
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 08 00:00:48 2013