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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-08-08

---Logopened Thu Aug 08 00:00:48 2013
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04:04<LordAro>morning gentlemen
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04:07<V453000>yoloswag sokool hiiiiiii <3
04:07<V453000>k this doesnt work
04:07<V453000>good morning good sir
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05:25<LordAro>hai Alberth
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08:46<@Alberth>hi hi
08:51<SamanthaD>morning tide >.<
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09:17<SamanthaD>I love hacking games
09:18<SamanthaD>I'm not goofing off
09:18<SamanthaD>I'm performing "quality assurance"
09:18<@Alberth>I do that so much, I basically stopped playing :p
09:19<krinn>didn't play a ttd party for days... i'm looking at my ai (trying) doing it
09:21<SamanthaD>I'm currently building loops on the ground and watching to make sure the vehicles separate themselves
09:21<SamanthaD>then I'm going to get an account on the forums and post my patch
09:22<SamanthaD>then I'm going to play it in a real game and see if it crashes :p
09:22<@Alberth>the game of hacking software is so much more interesting :p
09:22<SamanthaD>it is n_n
09:22<krinn>specially when it fail
09:23<SamanthaD>I'm just starting to get used to this code base
09:23<SamanthaD>going to update a few more patches before I try writing one of my own
09:24<SamanthaD>I dunno what patch though...
09:24<SamanthaD>I'm open to suggestions
09:25<robotboy>Diagonal lel crossings, custom bridgeheads. I don't realy care as I'm not an active user of OpenTTD
09:26<krinn>SamanthaD, easy ->
09:27<krinn>SamanthaD, even more simple :
09:28<SamanthaD>yeah, okay!
09:28<SamanthaD>yeah, I just merged Advanced Timetables to current
09:28<SamanthaD>Advanced Timetables > Slim Timetables
09:32<@Alberth>so far, I mostly fail to understand what time tables aim to solve
09:34<SamanthaD>They were SUPPOSED to help keep trains from bunching up together
09:34<SamanthaD>which... they admittedly do if your idea of "playing" is more akin to bookkeeping
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09:35<V453000>typical solution, "I can not use brain to solve it in game, I have to use a patch"
09:38<@Alberth>never tried the patches, but the standard time table seems to work well if you play without break downs, and don't change number of trains, after some manual twiddling
09:39<V453000>yes and no :) the stacking can occur with it, too
09:39<V453000>still, there are various other solutions to it
09:40<@Alberth>time tables in their current form are still too much trouble to setup, let alone maintain, so I am open to other suggestions :)
09:40<SamanthaD>it's not that you can't use brain to solve it in game, it's that using brain to solve it in game is boring and grind-y
09:41<SamanthaD>yeah, what this patch does is basically update the timetables in real time to adjust for changing conditions
09:42<SamanthaD>I want to make a modification to this patch though... as it is it's very aggressive in that it will make trains wait in stations to get back on the new schedule
09:42<SamanthaD>maybe it would be good to be able to tell it "these platforms need to be cleared as soon as possible at all times"
09:43<krinn>it would have just been better to timetable the station and not the trains, with some timed signals at station entry/exit
09:43<SamanthaD>krinn: how do you mean?
09:43<krinn>that with some signals that light green or red for a period
09:44<V453000>you can make timed signals already :)
09:44<SamanthaD>yes, but then it wouln't be smart in that when you add and remove trains from a line it'll mess up their separation
09:44<SamanthaD>or if you refit to faster/slower trains
09:45<SamanthaD>... or production levels change
09:45<krinn>you won't care the time to travel, only if the train is there in time it can enter, if not, it wait next green light
09:46<SamanthaD>that sounds like play without timetables at all
09:46<SamanthaD>you get regular service by saturating the line :p
09:46<krinn>yes, you time the staiton signal, not the trains
09:47<V453000>sooner or later you get so much traffic in the station that you need constant saturation anyway :)
09:47<SamanthaD>"Yeah, it only carries 10k passengers a month on that line but it's 2000 tiles long so I've got 50 trains!"
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09:47<SamanthaD>maybe what I should add to this patch is a second mode
09:48<SamanthaD>instead of "evenly space all the trains" it would "try to ensure that there's always a train in the platform"
09:48<SamanthaD>or perhaps some logic so that a section of track can get a speed limit so that trains don't have to stop and wait for a platform to clear on a saturated line
09:51<V453000>put them in a depot if station is full for example?
09:51<V453000>or on a waiting line
09:51<V453000>same thing
09:52<SamanthaD>V453000: Yes, but stopping a low-acceleration train adds more of a delay than keeping it moving at a lower speed. Also, it's less pretty.
09:53<V453000>well then keep them running on a separate "waiting loop" or simply make station bigger :D
09:53<V453000>btw if trains would "randomly" slow down on the network it would create some nice jams
09:54<V453000>less pretty = actually building rails? :)
09:54<SamanthaD>it's not for the main network, it's for feeder lines
09:54<V453000>those can jam too cant they :)
09:55<SamanthaD>it's just that my last three games or so have involved passenger feed-lines inside cities where there just simply isn't any room to build more tracks
09:56<SamanthaD>I dunno... kinda a low priority for me right now
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10:18<NGC3982>Good afternoon.
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10:33<SamanthaD>Hi NGC3982
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10:45<SamanthaD> apparently thinks my registration is spam?
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11:12<megakacktus>I'm having a tough time with this load dialog filter, mainly because I can't get the file list out of a SmallVector object and into a GUIList object :L
11:13<megakacktus>As a GUIList inherits directly from a SmallVector, can I use the Guilist as a drop-in replacement?
11:14<@Alberth>just copy all entries, one at a time?
11:14<@Rubidium>I reckon you can
11:14<@Alberth>Hi Rubidium
11:15<megakacktus>Maybe I'm just incredibly thick but I can't find the correct methods to do that in the doxygen :P
11:18<@Alberth> ?
11:18<@Alberth>it has Get, it has [], and it has Begin() and End()
11:20<@Alberth>for (const FileElement *p = gl->Begin(); p != gl->End(); p++) { /* do something with *p */ }
11:20<megakacktus>Trouble is, I can't get the items from the SmallVector into the GUIList
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11:21<@Alberth>the above are smallvector methods, so they should work
11:21<@Alberth>can you pastebin the patch?
11:24<megakacktus>it's pretty messy and rough (i'm pretty new to C++) but here it is:
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11:29<@Alberth>ok, what's the plan?
11:30<@Alberth>I don't see a second list
11:31<megakacktus>I'm trying to get the file list out of the smallvector into a guilist so I can filter it with the built in functions, then place that guilist in the load dialog for massive win.
11:31<megakacktus>I don't know if that's a crap plan though :P
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11:34<@Alberth>sounds feasible
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11:35<@Alberth>for (uint pos = this->vscroll->GetPosition(); pos < _fios_items.Length(); pos++) { const FiosItem *item = _fios_items.Get(pos); ... <-- there is the basic way to pull an element from the list, around line 360
11:36<@Alberth>so make a gui list, and copy the elements into it, if matched by the filter
11:36<@Alberth>maybe at first you want to make it work with just copying everything, ie without filtering out things
11:37<megakacktus>that's what I wanted to do at first just to make sure it worked
11:37<megakacktus>then start filtering
11:40<@Alberth>and of course modify that access method at line 360 to your new list :)
11:40<@Alberth>possibly at other spots too
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11:45<megakacktus>How exactly do I add the FiosItem I just got from _fios_items to my GUIList? I can't find the method here :P
11:47<megakacktus>oh right, it inherits :)
11:48<@Alberth>megakacktus: a simple trick in these cases is to find another piece of code that also uses GUIList, and see what happens there. Then consult the docs to verify your findings
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11:50<@Alberth>why invent it all from scratch if you can just borrow existing practices :)
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11:59<megakacktus>:D I think I know how I can do this now!
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12:31<megakacktus>hmm... "error: cannot convert 'FiosItem* const*' to 'const FiosItem*' in initialization"
12:32<LordAro>those are slways fun :L
12:32<@Alberth>sounds correct, const pointers to data, and pointers to const data are different things :)
12:33<megakacktus>Yeah, I've been wrangling that for a half hour :P
12:33<@Alberth>also, you're off by one * indirection :)
12:33<megakacktus>I added another * and got a segfault :(
12:36<SamanthaD>what is a good convention for savegame versions of patched games?
12:42<@Alberth>I always rename the company name to a prefix that somewhat describes the game setup
12:42<@Alberth>you may want to keep savegames together with the patched binary
12:43<@Alberth>which you can do by putting an openttd.cfg right next to the openttd binary
12:44<SamanthaD>Perhaps SAVEGAME_VERSION should be an array instead of a unit16
12:44<SamanthaD>with two fields
12:44<SamanthaD>one for the trunk version and the other for the version of the patch/patchset applied to it
12:44<@Alberth> looks like the right starting point
12:45<@Alberth>SamanthaD: yeah, and then someone patches a patched game, and needs a 3rd field :p
12:45<@Alberth>You can also use different segments of the savegame number for different patches
12:46<SamanthaD>like... 180 -> 1180?
12:46<@Alberth>ie use the upper 8 bit for your patch number :)
12:46<SamanthaD>is there any technical reason why savegames can't store an array of arbitrary length as the savegame ID?
12:46<SamanthaD>eeer... savegame version ID
12:46<@Alberth>your idea is a bit more readable for humans :)
12:47<SamanthaD>that's the IMPORTANT part ;)
12:48<LordAro>readable for humans? burn the heretic!
12:48<@Alberth>there may be limits due to compatibility with early save games
12:48<SamanthaD>true... there'd need to be a function that converts a unit16 to an array of a single field if that's what it gets
12:49<@Alberth>so you probably end up making a new savegame version that adds a new number-array
12:50<SamanthaD>OH! That's a good idea. Have the original unit16 as the trunk version and an array for patches?
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12:50<@Alberth>and comparing game versions becomes more complicated
12:51<megakacktus>woah o.O
12:52<SamanthaD>how about a 2D Array? You have a str describing what patch it is and a number for a revision
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12:52<LordAro>megakacktus: rather useless without the patch (or crash.dmp)
12:54<@Alberth>megakacktus: compile with debugging, so you get can use gdb to get a readable stack dump
12:54<@Alberth>SamanthaD: so complicated to store just one extra number
12:54<SamanthaD>I suppose...
12:55<megakacktus>Here's the diff
12:55<@Alberth>if you don't know what patch it contains, you are doing something wrong :)
12:57<@Alberth>just use a larger number than current trunk (eg 1000, 1010, 1020, etc), and you have enough information to know what it is
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13:02<megakacktus>So I think I set up my pointers improperly :(
13:03<LordAro>i think that's quite likely :)
13:03<LordAro>that's generally the reason for segfaults
13:04<LordAro>(in my limited experience)
13:08<@Alberth>megakacktus: I don't see a new list nor do I see any copying??
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13:10<megakacktus>maybe I pasted the old patch, I'll try again
13:16<@Alberth>this->vscroll->GetPosition() line 62 should be 0, since you want to copy the entire list
13:20<@Alberth>_fios_items.Length() line 119, looks wrong, you are using a different list to read from
13:21<megakacktus>yeah that might be a problem
13:21<SamanthaD>eeek! I delete my ~/.openttd directory and OTTD starts with a window of ZERO size O.O
13:21*SamanthaD goes to see if it does the same thing in trunk
13:22<@Alberth>be careful with not introducing changes that are irrelevant to the patch you're making: 31-33, 121 extra " " after the "*", 150
13:22<LordAro>that's... unusual
13:24<SamanthaD>it also crashes! I think it's my latest revision
13:24*SamanthaD sings the praises of revision control!
13:27<@Alberth>one of the things you wonder how you ever managed to live without it :)
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13:29<SamanthaD>why is it that gcc complies fast when you don't care and takes FOREVER when you're anxious for it to get done?!
13:30<frosch123>it's controled by /dev/mood
13:31<frosch123>or /proc/mood
13:31<frosch123>cannot rmember
13:32<megakacktus>is FiosItem* const* a constant pointer to a pointer to a class?
13:32<frosch123>read it from right to left
13:32<frosch123>a is pointer to a const pointer to fiositem
13:33<megakacktus>I'm screwed :c
13:36<SamanthaD>that is REALLY weird
13:37<SamanthaD>I set the savegame version to 1185 and it completely hosed everything...
13:37<SamanthaD>ah well, I won't do that then
13:38<frosch123>SamanthaD: it's currently saved as uint8
13:38<frosch123>though it can be extended to uint16
13:39<SamanthaD>the line in my code says "extern const unit16"
13:39<@Alberth>ha, you make the same "unit" typo I always make :)
13:40<frosch123>hmm, maybe we already extended it to uint16 :p
13:41<SamanthaD>and int defaults to 32bit, right?
13:42<@Rubidium>in openttd it does
13:42<SamanthaD>I need a faster processor...
13:43<SamanthaD>I think it might be because I'm setting the savegame version from an int
13:43<SamanthaD>int to uint16 might be causing problems
13:43<frosch123>ah, SL_MAX_VERSION was the weird thing
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25701 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2013-08-08 17:45:30 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:45<@DorpsGek>italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 3 changes by cuthbert
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13:50<megakacktus>no more segfaults, yay!
13:52<megakacktus>I *think* i'm on the right track
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14:07<SamanthaD>Hey Wolf01
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14:17<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
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14:26<Wolf01>today I saw frogs swimming in the air, some fish too
14:28<frosch123>you were quite thirsty then
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14:33<Wolf01>it's really too wet here, the humidity reached 71% today
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15:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25702 trunk/src/saveload/saveload.h (2013-08-08 19:01:02 UTC)
15:01<@DorpsGek>-Add: about 3000 years of savegame compatibility.
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15:11<SamanthaD>THanks for the fix, frosch123
15:11<frosch123>"fix" :p
15:12<SamanthaD>why "fix"?
15:13*Rubidium is sad about the size of the commit message
15:13<@Rubidium>oh... and
15:13<@Rubidium>[citation needed]
15:14<__ln__>@seen Bjarni
15:14<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 43 weeks, 5 days, 18 hours, 55 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
15:14<frosch123>Rubidium: should i have used "-Change: oh... that's just way too easy" ?
15:15<frosch123>or just "3000 years [citation needed]"?
15:16<@Rubidium>Wolf01: you call that wet? The average humidity (over ~30 years) for early august is 77% over here
15:16<SamanthaD>Maybe he just wanted you to change it from a 16bit word to a 64bit word, just to be on the safe side ;)
15:18<@Rubidium>Wolf01: and it ain't the rain either, as a week ago it was on average (over 24 hours) about 25 degrees with 91% sun and no rain whatsoever but still 68% humidity
15:19<@Rubidium>frosch123: the commit message could've easily been multitudes of the patch size long
15:20<frosch123>too much work :p
15:20<Wolf01>but here there are also 36°C, wich feel like 42°C with the humidity
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15:41<SamanthaD>why the heck is mercurial reporting merges for files I never freaking changed?!
15:41<dihedral>any chance one of the guys in amsterdam would have me and my brother in law stay a night?
15:41<dihedral>we are looking for a cheap place to stay for one night, during our fun fair tour :-)
15:42<dihedral>Rubidium? TrueBrain? :-P
15:42<dihedral>sometime during the last week of august
15:43<SamanthaD>this is very disconcerting...
15:43<megakacktus>crap, more segmentation faults :(
15:43<LordAro>SamanthaD: maybe you updated by accident? what does hg diff / hg stat say?
15:44<SamanthaD>LordAro: I'm sure I didn't...
15:44<SamanthaD>I did the hg stat right before the update
15:44<SamanthaD>then... poof!
15:44<SamanthaD>things all went to hell
15:44<LordAro>megakacktus: try this one :P especially when it's not your code...
15:45*LordAro points at Alberth
15:47<frosch123>you have voxels in frct?
15:48<LordAro>umm, yes? :L
15:48*LordAro continues pointing at Alberth
15:48<@Alberth>SamanthaD: run a diff between the old the the new revision (perhaps with --stat for a compressed file overview)
15:48<SamanthaD>Alberth: Yes, I should do that. Give me a sec.
15:49<@Alberth>not the kind of voxels that other people think :)
15:49<@Alberth>ie it's just the 3d grid in FreeRCT
15:50<SamanthaD>"voxel" makes me think of a small furry animal
15:50<frosch123>we already have a squirrel plague in ottd, please don't bring in more animals
15:51<@Alberth>you forgot the unicorns
15:51<frosch123>oh, that's only one
15:51<LordAro>and the ponys
15:52<frosch123>we can handle it
15:52<SamanthaD>I keep seeing the squirrels
15:52<SamanthaD>what the heck are they?!
15:53<frosch123>LordAro: i haven't seen a pony in months :p
15:53<@Alberth>used for AIs and GSes
15:54<megakacktus>is GRF pronounced 'gerf' or 'griff'?
15:55<frosch123>it isn't pronounced, it is yelled in anger
15:55<@Rubidium>dihedral: I'm not even close to Amsterdam (in Dutch terms at least)
15:55<LordAro>i pronounce it gee-arr-eff
15:56*Alberth says 'graph'
15:56<SamanthaD>Alberth: hg diff src/order_backup.cpp shows about half the file getting added
15:56<@Rubidium>no ga-re-fi ?
15:56<@Alberth>no graffiti :)
15:56<SamanthaD>which... I don't doubt it was but... considering I didn't modify it you'd think the automatic merger would have fixed it without me having to tweak at it
15:56<frosch123>NewGiraffe? i approve
15:56<LordAro>SamanthaD: editor screwup? "hg revert src/order_backup.cpp"
15:57<@Alberth>SamanthaD: EOL convention changed?
15:57<SamanthaD>LordAro: Yeah... I suppose. I didn't actually do anything with an editor though. I just applied a patch.
15:57<@Alberth>frosch123: new animal is always good
15:58<frosch123>exactly :)
15:58<SamanthaD>Alberth: No... I don't think so... easiest explanation is a mercurial bug :p
16:03<@Alberth>never seen hg mess up a file before :o
16:03<krinn>never seen a girl that doesn't mess up something before
16:05<SamanthaD>;_; *sniffles*
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16:05<@Alberth>I did see it crash on smaller stuff like failing to delete the same patch twice :)
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16:05<LordAro>DorpsGek is a girl?
16:05<@Alberth>good girl, DorpsGek
16:06<+glx>DorpsGek is just an idiot
16:06<megakacktus>Ok... so all the segfaults are gone... now the GUIList just isn't displaying :s
16:06<LordAro>and a girl? or is that just implied? :P
16:06*LordAro is sorry
16:06<megakacktus>but... I can still access files from it o.O
16:08<@Alberth>megakacktus: nice for randomly picking a save game :)
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16:43<LordAro>megakacktus: make a "random" button :P
16:48<megakacktus>OpenTTD Roulette (R)
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16:56<TWerkhoven>xaroth: ingame date of 20th november 1950, comes in as ServerDate -> {'date': datetime.datetime(1950, 11, 21, 0, 0)}, is that right?
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17:06<LordAro>Xaroth|Work: ^ in case that helps :)
17:14<TWerkhoven>might do, i think he highlights both
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17:48<megakacktus>I'm out, too
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19:32<SamanthaD>is there some way in Hg I can combine two consecutive commits into one?!
19:33<SamanthaD>I'm finding myself in a lot of situations where I want to commit work that's clearly not done just so I can revert to it when there's, say, a big huge complex merge or something and it would be nice to merge the "there, all done" commit and the intermediate commits together
19:39<SamanthaD>oh, I see how to do it
19:40<SamanthaD>what a hack >.>
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23:28<DabuYu>I think it's time for some new openttd transportation? ;)
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23:41<SamanthaD>DabuYu: That looks like something the boys in coop thought up :p
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 09 00:00:11 2013