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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-08-10

---Logopened Sat Aug 10 00:00:50 2013
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00:22<SamanthaD>okay
00:22<SamanthaD>oops, wrong window >.<
00:22<SamanthaD>*waves to everyone*
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00:57<MadaraUchiha>Morning folks
00:57<MadaraUchiha>Yet another signals question!
00:57<MadaraUchiha>I'm reading the Signals article on the wiki
00:58<MadaraUchiha>And I'm having trouble understanding the Pre-Entry and Pre-Exit signals (and subsequently, the Combo signal). Can anyone help me shed some light?
01:07<V453000>it is easy, entry looks if there is at least 1 green exit
01:07<V453000>if at least one is green, entry is green too
01:08<V453000>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Presignal_Basics
01:16<MadaraUchiha>V453000: And Exit signals?
01:17<MadaraUchiha>(Thanks for the article, I'll read it)
01:17<V453000>and exit signals are red only if there is a train in front of them
01:17<V453000>thus like normal signals
01:17<V453000>only difference is that they can be detected by the other pre-signals
01:17<MadaraUchiha>Aha
01:18<MadaraUchiha>But it signals back to entries, right?
01:18<V453000>yes
01:18<V453000>you could say it that way
01:19<V453000>still, if you feel like learning signals, a good place to do it is on #openttdcoop servers ;)
01:19<MadaraUchiha>Well, how does it differ from normal block signals then?
01:19<MadaraUchiha>If I got the example on "Signals" article right, the entry pre-signal should work with normal blocks as well.
01:20<MadaraUchiha>Oh, no, my bad, didn't see they switched those signals too.
01:20<MadaraUchiha>So entries only work with exits? (and combos?)
01:20<V453000>yes
01:20<V453000>if there is no other pre-signal present, they work like basic signals
01:20<V453000>if there is, then they apply the logic we mentioned
01:21<V453000>... combo is a combination of entry and exit - it looks forward, but it also is detected
01:21<MadaraUchiha>So basically if the following block is terminated by block signals, the entry signal will behave like a block signal.
01:21<V453000>quite
01:22<V453000>except some details, but those arent relevant here and now
01:22<MadaraUchiha>Alright, thanks, that makes it clearer
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03:15<@peter1138>ререрявеявевяерверт123
03:15<@peter1138>вхат
03:15<@peter1138>уххх
03:16<@peter1138>явеасдззхцасдявеасдзхц
03:16<V453000>I agree
03:16<@peter1138>well that was odd
03:16<V453000>maybe a bit more of asdoguahlkdf
03:17<@peter1138>some how put my terminal into cyrillic mode :p
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03:33<juzza1>414141414
03:33<juzza1>.0.
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05:21<@Alberth>moin
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05:22<Wolf01>hi o/
05:24<roboboy>hello
05:25<@Alberth>o/ Wolf01, roboboy
05:26<Wolf01>I'm working on a new Lego mecha
05:27<Wolf01>I took some photos, but with low light they are blurry
05:27<Wolf01>http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=532639
05:27<Wolf01>what do you think?
05:27<@Alberth>looking spiffy
05:28<roboboy>nice
05:29<@Alberth>it's from the transformers world, or is this a different kind?
05:29-!-MadaraUchiha [~madara@80.179.184.165.static.012.net.il] has left #openttd [Leaving]
05:29*Alberth is complete noob in those areas
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05:31<@Alberth>I did watch some animation series, mostly because of looking how the 3d rendererings worked :)
05:31<Wolf01>no, I just built an internal frame with a lot of moving points and then covered it with red parts, as I have about 50% of red parts, when I was building the head I thought it resembled Diablo
05:31-!-LordAro [~LordAro@host81-158-56-249.range81-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
05:32<Wolf01>and of course, the back booster pack is borrowed from Japan anime :P
05:32<Wolf01>hello Lord
05:32<LordAro>hai Wolf01 and all
05:33<Zuu>Hello
05:33<@Alberth>it seems I missed a game in my youth :p
05:33<@Alberth>hi LordAro, Zuu
05:34<LordAro>hai Alberth, Zuu :)
05:34<Wolf01>hello Zuu
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05:41<dihedral>good morning :-)
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05:41<Wolf01>'morning dih!
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05:43<dihedral>a Wolf :-)
05:43<Wolf01>omg, where?
05:44<dihedral>behind you
05:45<Wolf01>there's only me behind me... wait, that's strange
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06:20<LordAro>http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/ this(?)
06:36<MadaraUchiha>Question
06:36<MadaraUchiha>Is there an effective way to replace all railway trains to electric/monorail trains?
06:37<MadaraUchiha>Right now, I find that I can't use the autoreplace feature because when I replace the track, the depots don't get converted, and the trains can't exit the depot.
06:37<V453000>use universal railtype
06:37<V453000>e.g. PURR newGRF
06:38<V453000>that will allow you to convert whole network to universal rail, then autoreplace
06:39<Wolf01>I would like to know how universal railtype could appear IRL, I already know about mixed railtypes, but this one could be really a challenge :P
06:41<MadaraUchiha>Can I add use a NewGRF without restarting a game?
06:41<Wolf01>no
06:41<MadaraUchiha>:(
06:41<MadaraUchiha>Any way I can do it in my existing game?
06:41<Wolf01>patience
06:41<MadaraUchiha>i.e. convert the entire network to monorail, and autoreplace all the train?
06:41<V453000>yes you can
06:42<MadaraUchiha>Not, manually one-by-one? I have over 70 trains :|
06:42<V453000>1. close openttd
06:42<LordAro>over 70? ha
06:42*Alberth ponders about removing the convert button from mono and maglev toolbars
06:42<V453000>2. find scenario_developer in config
06:42<V453000>3. change that to 3, open openttd again
06:42<LordAro>careful V453000...
06:42<V453000>you can add newGrfs to saves now
06:42<MadaraUchiha>Let's see
06:42<@Alberth>much better, make one new train, and clone it
06:43<Wolf01>ok, you can, but we don't support the problems which you will have doing this
06:43<LordAro>WARNING: is likely to break your save at some point
06:43<MadaraUchiha>So I won't do it :D
06:43<MadaraUchiha>Alberth, this works, however the trains have different destinations and whatnot
06:43<LordAro>seriously though, 70 trains isn't all that many
06:43<MadaraUchiha>I'd like to refrain from reassigning everything 10 times over.
06:43<Wolf01>use groups
06:43<V453000>it wont break your savegame if you know which newGRFs do that ... you can always reload the old save if it breaks
06:44<LordAro>send all to depots, convert whole map, convert trains 1 by 1
06:44<@Alberth>MadaraUchiha: you know about cloning?
06:44<@Alberth>and copying orders of an other train?
06:44<MadaraUchiha>Yes, and about shared orders too, I'm using it.
06:44<MadaraUchiha>Wolf01, Groups are possible, hadn't thought of that!
06:44<@Alberth>you have 70 trains each with unique orders?
06:44<@Alberth>:o
06:44<MadaraUchiha>No, they can be divided to about 10 groups with unique orders.
06:45<MadaraUchiha>(avarage 7 trains per route)
06:45<@Alberth>same train consist?
06:45<MadaraUchiha>Yes
06:45<MadaraUchiha>Although there is one exception
06:46<@Alberth>so make 1 new train, assign it orders of the first group, clone it 7 times
06:46<MadaraUchiha>I have about 5 trains moving both fruit and maize from the farm/plantation combo to the food processing plant
06:46<@Alberth>make a copy of any new train without sharing orders
06:46<MadaraUchiha>And two more trains, with the same route, having a full maize and full fruit each.
06:46<MadaraUchiha>But yeah, Alberth, that's what I'm going to do.
06:46<@Alberth>assign it orders of the second group, and clone it 6 times
06:46<@Alberth>and that 8 more times
06:46<MadaraUchiha>Now another question.
06:47<V453000>--- ROUND 2 ---
06:47<MadaraUchiha>Is it possible, assuming the entire network is linked, to get all the trains in the same depot?
06:47<@Alberth>MadaraUchiha: imho a much better alternative is not to convert tracks to mono or maglev, but build new tracks, and replace the old ones
06:47<@Alberth>that's much more fun than just replacement
06:48<MadaraUchiha>How does building new ones and replacing the old ones different from "just replacement"? I don't get what you mean.
06:48<@Alberth>you can add a goto depot order to a specific depot
06:49<@Alberth>you build new monorail connections, while keeping the existing stuff running
06:49<@Alberth>that can be really new connections, or just in parallel with an existing connection
06:50<@Alberth>in the latter case, you can take out the old connection after having switched to the monorail
06:50<MadaraUchiha>But I want to retire my railway system, it's old and I'm about to lose support for it (for the renew)
06:50<MadaraUchiha>But again, how does "new connections" help me? Railway trains can't travel on Monorail, can they?
06:51<MadaraUchiha>Same as monorail trains can't travel on maglev track.
06:51<@Alberth>I am not converting anything, ever
06:51<@Alberth>I build new from the ground up, and then take down the old
06:51<Zuu>You can add new cross connections or a new network using monorail/manglev.
06:52<Zuu>Transfer the cargo at stations
06:52<Zuu>If you play with trunk, enable cargodist to help with cargo transfer.
06:52<LordAro>You can 'send all to nearest depot' with a single button click. It's not likely to be a single depot though
06:52<@Alberth>the point is that "convert" is boring from a gameplay point of view, especially when you do it at network scale
06:52<V453000>boring = automatic? :d
06:53<@Alberth>infra structure changes should be challenging, imho
06:53<V453000>they are tedious, not challenging
06:53<@Alberth>V453000: yep, removal of the convert button for mono and maglev would help here :)
06:53<V453000>two majorly different things
06:53<V453000>no, it would only make it more annoying, no challenge
06:54<Zuu>Also, by keeping rail and only add monorail+manglev, you'll get a more diversitied network
06:54<Zuu>diversed*
06:55<@Alberth>Zuu: one problem is that the default set doesn't really allow it, you run out of trains to run at the rail network
06:55<V453000>in case you use the stupid vehicle expire
06:55<Zuu>At least when I play, I don't want a symetric network but rather an organic network structure.
06:55<@Alberth>V doesn't have room for that :p
06:56<V453000>uhm
06:56<V453000>changing TRAINS does not change your network?
06:56<V453000>converting rails is just cosmetic
06:57<Zuu>But then you only get one network. Not rail+monorail+manglev.
06:57<@Alberth>depends on how you look at infra structure like rails, probably
06:57<@Alberth>ie a new train can just be bought and sent on its way
06:57<V453000>if you cant replace from one tracktype to another easily, something is seriouly broken
06:58<V453000>Zuu: one network should be encouraged more
06:58<@Alberth>perhaps the question is why you switch tracktype in such cases
06:58<V453000>different train classes for some purpose
06:58<V453000>e.g. typical NUTS gameplay trees like rail strong -> monorails chameleon -> maglev slugs
06:59<V453000>converts at least twice through the 150 years of playing
06:59<V453000>why? why not you just want to change trains ... changing tracks is just a side effect to have more cosmetic variety in track choice
06:59<V453000>but it is still just trains
06:59<Zuu>V453000: At the point when monorail arrives, you will have a large rail network. What I may do then is to expand rail when its needed, but also start to add new monorail connections. Over time, you'll get more and more monorail and can move over traffic there.
06:59<V453000>yes.
07:00<V453000>OR you CAN be allowed to convert en masse if it is for some reason a good choice for you
07:00<V453000>you can always do your manual way of "adding 2nd network"
07:00<@Alberth>in the original game (ie TTO), changing track types felt as forced to me
07:00<V453000>yes because the train stats are idiotic
07:01<@Alberth>more like the programmers needed something to keep the player busy
07:01<V453000>I doubt that
07:01<V453000>I would rather expect the simple logic of "more modern = better"
07:01<@Alberth>perhaps it's just my imagination, but that's how it felt to me
07:02<@Alberth>daylength patches are perhaps also something in this direction, ie they allow you to play with the same set of trains for a longer time
07:03<V453000>it is the most basic and generally logical approach, you simply have to make future trains better than current ones, otherwise you might as well not introduce them at all because players have better trains already
07:03<@Alberth>although I always felt it would be better solved in newgrf, like eg with nuts
07:03<V453000>unfortunately the track types are an obstacle between those evolutionarily better trains
07:03<V453000>but I think that is a side effect
07:04<V453000>from my point of view, the original trains should be as much unrestrained, and simple fun as possible
07:05<V453000>and due to absence of universal rail, the "unbalance" between e.g. rail/maglev is already uncomfortable enough to make it not a problem
07:05<Wolf01>daylength patch... /me stares at the void
07:05<V453000>that newGRFs are composed in a way that their stats are complete nonsense, is another thing
07:06<@Alberth>how do tracktype switches come into play here?
07:06<@Alberth>ie another solution would be to add more trains for every available track type
07:06<V453000>if you put the effort into changing track types, yo uget something in return
07:07<V453000>yes, a solution like improving rail trains would be valid, but then maglev would be useless
07:07<V453000>nobody would convert to maglev, or use maglev then
07:07<@Alberth>they can be faster than eg rail
07:07<V453000>faster isnt really an advantage
07:08<V453000>acceleration and capacity is what matters most
07:08<@Alberth>right now, the default set doesn't give you the option to stay using rails or electric rails
07:08<V453000>it does, if you dont want to put stupid amount of effort in replacing 500 trains manually
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07:09<V453000>or 300, some number that people have by 2020
07:09<V453000>simple put effort -> gain something logic
07:09<@Alberth>300 still looks a little steep, but yeah :)
07:09<Wolf01>I found myself playing for eyecandy instead of outstanding performances, I mean, I use rapid trains for passengers over big cities, but industrial production are often mammoth electric trains with 2 or more engines also in year 2100 and sometimes I still have an old 1950 steamer running in some forgotten railway in a 2048 map
07:10<V453000>it is like if you wanted to remove autoreplace Alberth
07:10<V453000>almost exactly the same thing
07:10<@Alberth>Wolf01: that only works for disabled breakdown
07:10<Wolf01>and I don't care so much if a train takes 1 year to deliver and come back :P
07:10<V453000>anyway, off to do them dishes
07:11<@Alberth>ok, thanks for the discussion
07:11<Wolf01>I usually play with reduced breakdowns, but just because of buses
07:15<Zuu>I usually play Ticket To Ride Online, and just had an idea on adding some elements from it into OpenTTD using a GS.
07:23<@peter1138>he's got a ticket to ri-ide
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08:06<Frodus>Hi guys. I have created a init.d script for running my openttd server on ubuntu/debian os. It can be downloaded from https://bitbucket.org/frodus/openttd-init
08:06<Frodus>If anyone have a init script, or if there are any official scripts from the developers, please let me know. I could not find any one that I thought was very usefull..
08:09<Zuu>Frodus: The possbile most relevant wiki article is http://wiki.openttd.org/Server
08:09<Zuu>You may want to add a section at the bottom for advanced setups where you add a link to your repository.
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08:10<Zuu>This article is often passed to noobs that have no clue, so try to not add it to early in the article.
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08:10<dihedral>planetmaker, do you have a moment to test something with me?
08:11<Frodus>Zuu: Good idea. I tried to contact OPENTTD on email to ask them to add it. But I did not get any reply. I'll see if I can add my url to the wiki.
08:11<@Alberth>dihedral: not until sunday late
08:11<dihedral>shoot
08:11<dihedral>anybody else available as a volunteer?
08:14<dihedral>does not matter - managed myself :-)
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08:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25706 trunk/config.lib (2013-08-10 12:47:08 UTC)
08:47<@DorpsGek>-Fix: don't pass -mmacosx-version-min to compilers that don't support it
08:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25707 trunk/src/newgrf_industrytiles.cpp (2013-08-10 12:47:10 UTC)
08:47<@DorpsGek>-Fix: apply coding style wrt if/else
08:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25708 trunk/src/textbuf.cpp (2013-08-10 12:47:11 UTC)
08:47<@DorpsGek>-Fix: don't return NULL as bool
08:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25709 trunk/src/script/api/script_town.cpp (2013-08-10 12:47:13 UTC)
08:47<@DorpsGek>-Fix: don't return -1 as unsigned
08:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25710 trunk/src/video/cocoa/cocoa_v.mm (2013-08-10 12:47:16 UTC)
08:47<@DorpsGek>-Fix: string arguments to NSNotificationCenter::addObserver and NSNotificationCenter::postNotificationName can't be const in certain versions of OSX
08:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25711 trunk/src/video/cocoa/fullscreen.mm (2013-08-10 12:47:18 UTC)
08:47<@DorpsGek>-Fix: don't use NULL as integer
08:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25712 trunk/src/video/cocoa/wnd_quartz.mm (2013-08-10 12:47:20 UTC)
08:47<@DorpsGek>-Fix: define kCGBitmapByteOrder32Host to 0 if it's missing.
08:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25713 trunk/src/video/cocoa/wnd_quartz.mm (2013-08-10 12:47:22 UTC)
08:47<@DorpsGek>-Fix: use proper ObjC style to avoid problems if members are missing
08:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25714 /trunk/src (6 files in 3 dirs) (2013-08-10 12:47:24 UTC)
08:47<@DorpsGek>-Fix: explicitly cast some things to silence warnings on GCC 4.0
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10:10<apiecux>hello
10:12<apiecux>http://people.symlink.me/~rom1/images/openttd/signals.png there are three tracks, two in one way, and the one at middle can be used in two ways. on the screenshot, all trains are blocked by the white one, but the train on bottom will not go on the middle track.
10:14<apiecux>how it would be possible to have this middle track used is this case?
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10:20<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25715 trunk/src/cargopacket.cpp (2013-08-10 14:19:58 UTC)
10:20<@DorpsGek>-Fix: return correct value from StationCargoList::Reserve, fix some documentation and simplify StationCargoList::Load a bit
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>apiecux: you need to play with the pathfinder penalties for reserved track and reversed path signals
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>apiecux: go to the console and type "list_settings pf.yapf.rail"
10:25<apiecux>Eddi|zuHause: ok
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>then type "set <name> <value>" for the appropriate settings
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's "pbs_cross_penalty", which defaults to 300, you can set this higher (in 100 steps)
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>until the train shows the behaviour you like
10:29<apiecux>right, thank you
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10:42<MadaraUchiha>Alright
10:43<MadaraUchiha>I need some help.
10:43<MadaraUchiha>I have the following layout:
10:43<MadaraUchiha>http://i.imgur.com/E8NNVB5.jpg
10:43<MadaraUchiha>Why is the entry signal to the right shows green?
10:43<MadaraUchiha>Why is the entry signal to the right showing* green?
10:44<MadaraUchiha>(It allows trains to burst in, and block the entire junction, resulting in stalemate. Why does it not wait behind the entry signal?
10:48<@Alberth>I can see one green exit signal
10:49<MadaraUchiha>I'm an idiot.
10:49<@Alberth>using a path signal is much easier
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10:50<MadaraUchiha>How would you do the above layout with paths?
10:50<@Alberth>entry -> one-way path
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10:50<@Alberth>exit before the station -> remove
10:50<@Alberth>what signals do you use at a line?
10:51<MadaraUchiha>blocks
10:51<MadaraUchiha>In intervals of 7-8
10:51<MadaraUchiha>(because those are the lengths of my trains)
10:51<MadaraUchiha>Although I do have some paths
10:51<@Alberth>ok, block signal 6-8 tiles from the junction
10:51<@Alberth>and remove the outbound exit signal
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10:54<MadaraUchiha>So
10:54<@Alberth>the wiki doesn't have an example :(
10:54<MadaraUchiha>This? http://i.imgur.com/e0PUWjg.jpg
10:54<@Alberth>yep
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25716 /trunk/src/lang (brazilian_portuguese.txt spanish.txt) (2013-08-10 17:45:14 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>brazilian_portuguese - 3 changes by Tucalipe
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 3 changes by Terkhen
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14:10<SpComb>cargodist in trunk, I cannae hardly even believe it :)
14:11<SpComb>congrats
14:12<SpComb>a little late :P
14:16<fonsinchen>thank you
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16:14<Aristide>Hiii !
16:26<TWerkhoven>ello
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20:12<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun Aug 11 00:00:52 2013