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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-08-11

---Logopened Sun Aug 11 00:00:52 2013
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04:11<Wolf01>mmmh I have an old laptop with kubuntu and I have no clue on how resolve a dependency problem after a dist-upgrade
04:22<@Rubidium>yeah... (k)ubuntu dist-upgrades are a mess
04:23<@Rubidium>last time I had to do it, I wasted like half a day on it
04:23<Wolf01>If there were only 3 or 4 packets I would have done it by hand, but there are at least 40 of them
04:23*Rubidium rather has Debian dist-upgrades as those were, so far, generally quite pain free
04:24<@Rubidium>Wolf01: it's often just one or two packages that have a dependency chain and then pull in many others
04:24<@Rubidium>the only question is: which?
04:24<Wolf01>the problem seem to be that it can't update python to be able to configure the other packets
04:25<__ln__>take this opportunity to replace ubuntu with something else
04:26<Wolf01>I already wanted to install android-x86, just to try, but I can't either booth the cd (and it works well on another pc), and I don't have USB boot there
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04:38<Xaroth|Work>wolf: what does aptitude inform you? thats usually a good indicator for me
04:39<Wolf01>just ouputs a long list of packets which can't install because of missing dependencies
04:40<Wolf01>seem that some dependencies can't be installed because "the new version breaks the old version"
04:41<Wolf01>like libgtk2.0-common
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05:08<Wolf01>oh nice, dpkg with --force-breaks seem to have done something, now apt outputs only 5 packets with errors/missing dependencies
05:09<Wolf01>rebooting... I might not see it again
05:11<Wolf01>nice, it worked, at leat I have the wifi again
05:13<Wolf01>now it misses only: linux-generic, evolution-data-server, gir1.2, jockey-gtk and usb-creator-gtk
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05:14<Wolf01>hello Lord
05:15<Wolf01>ahah now the installed dependencies are too new for the packets I *want* to install
05:17<LordAro>hai Wolf01
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05:44<@Alberth>hi LordAro
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06:59<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25717 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2013-08-11 10:59:47 UTC)
06:59<@DorpsGek>-Fix: check for type of order before checking for refit type
07:00<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25718 trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp (2013-08-11 11:00:09 UTC)
07:00<@DorpsGek>-Fix: return INVALID from GetNextStoppingStation if vehicle would have to unload everything at this same station at the next stop
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09:55<NGC3982>Are you people familiar with installing Linux on Surftabs or similar?
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11:13<Frodus>Hi developers: Is there any plan of getting company password saved on multiplayer game? I see there are patches and bug rapports about this back in later 2007. Is there anyone that knows the story about the patches made not implemented in the official openttd game?
11:17<@Rubidium>as far as I know, they saved things in either the configuration file or in the savegame
11:17<@Rubidium>if it's in the savegame, and the savegames are copied to the clients... the clients have the password
11:18<Frodus>But this was never implemeted in the game right. As when I have been testing to setup a dedicated server the last 2 weeks, all passwords are removed if you save and the reload the game.
11:20<@Rubidium>if fit's in the configuration file, you need to clear them when another savegame is loaded as otherwise you the passwords to the companies in the previous game are used in the current game. Since OpenTTD loads the intro savegame, the passwords are trashed anyway
11:21<@Rubidium>and both ways are kinda troublesome when saving passwords
11:23<Frodus>Ok. Thanks for filling me in.
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12:03<krinn>hi guys
12:05<krinn>is there a cost value diff if to make a slope N tile a slope NW or change it lower its N part to get the NW behind it
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12:11<@Rubidium>there is no price difference in raising or lowering a corner. There can be a price difference in clearing the adjacent tiles
12:13<krinn>so assuming the tile next to it could be clear, lowering should cost less on water level than raising?
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12:17<Supercheese>Not quite vacuum tube trains, but maybe similar?
12:18<@Rubidium>krinn: *could*; it all depends on the clearing costs and those could differ
12:18<krinn>Rubidium, there's something more costly to clear than raising water ?
12:20<@Rubidium>krinn: there could be via
12:21<@Rubidium>if someone changes the clear water cost to 10 and increases the clear grass to 10 000, then building in water could be cheaper
12:21<krinn>better test both on testmode and get clost then :/
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12:23<krinn>the water level is alwasy 0 ?
12:24<@Rubidium>'ocean' is, canals and rivers aren't
12:24<krinn>ok thank Rubidium
12:24<@Rubidium>also... rough/rocky tiles are more expensive to clear than green clear tile (dark brown clear tiles are free)
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12:42<megakacktus>hmmm... "error: too many initializers for 'bool (* const [0])(FiosItem* const*, StringFilter&)'"
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12:50<megakacktus>OK... I've got file list filtering to work, I just can't click on the files :P
12:50<megakacktus>I'll need to figure that out :)
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13:26<krinn>hello Terkhen
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25719 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt lithuanian.txt) (2013-08-11 17:45:14 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 23 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 39 changes by Stabilitronas
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14:38<@Alberth>moin planetmaker
14:42<@planetmaker>so what did I miss the last 6 days?
14:42<@planetmaker>yes indeed :-)
14:42<@Alberth>or more likely, we missed you :)
14:44<@Alberth>I rewrote the eints batch script, and wrote some documentation
14:45<@planetmaker>sounds like something to read :-)
14:47<@Alberth> as browsable html tree
14:50<@Alberth>most was old, the "batch operations" chapter is new
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14:56<frosch123>moin :)
14:56<frosch123>more osx devs?
14:57<frosch123>it's getting scary :p
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15:01<frosch123>yeah, somehow i branched into a universe where everyone does osx suff
15:02<frosch123>i think the liked the previous one with the unicorns better :p
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15:07<@Rubidium>frosch123: apparantly many devs have (had) a Mac of some sorts
15:07*Rubidium hasn't though
15:10*dihedral has... but then that does not match the 'many devs' part :-P
15:13*Alberth hasn't either, reducing the 'many' count by one
15:13<frosch123>well, it's increasing after each party
15:13<frosch123>i think already at the first party there were more macbooks and notebook
15:15<dihedral>some nerds do sometimes enjoy being away from computers from time to time
15:16<dihedral>with the exception of michi_cc and Rubidium
15:16<dihedral>we shall not count Belugas, as he was more or less forced to do the commit
15:16<dihedral>and then of course there is planetmaker ... "i'll make some more coffe" ... what an excuse
15:17<__ln__>in the previous party Rubidium had a Dell, and all other laptops were Apple, more or less
15:17<dihedral>i prefer dell too
15:18<@Rubidium>well... this party I had a Dell as well
15:18<__ln__>it seemed that in this party people had fewer laptops with them in general
15:19<andythenorth>too much talking!
15:19<andythenorth>write more code!
15:20*andythenorth doesn't agree with socialising
15:20*Rubidium doesn't agree with legoing
15:20<andythenorth>"stop mucking about with bricks and make my game geeks" :D
15:22*andythenorth has seen pictures of the party; it was not very nerdy
15:23<andythenorth>hardly any vendor t-shirts
15:23<andythenorth>very few beards
15:23<andythenorth>nobody wearing sandals and socks
15:24<andythenorth>very strange
15:24<__ln__>i don't know what qualifies as a "vendor t-shirt", but..
15:31<dihedral>__ln__, i had mine with me, just left it in the car
15:32<dihedral>andythenorth, people building name tags with lego is pretty nerdy in my eyes
15:33<andythenorth>nah, that's a hipster thing these days
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15:39<frosch123>andythenorth: it was too hot for socks
15:39<frosch123>and too hot for beards? :p
15:39<frosch123>and i had a vendor cap!
15:44<andythenorth>ok, that's good
15:44<frosch123>what about unicorns? do they count?
15:45<__ln__>does vendor equal to openttd?
15:45<frosch123>should i wear a sc2 shirt next time?
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15:47<andythenorth>unicorns are out-of-scope
15:47<andythenorth>it's hard to apply any rules to unicorns
15:47<andythenorth>ideally the vendor t-shirt would be: redhat, debian, google, dell, AMD
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15:48<andythenorth>if it's microsoft, that person is probably not a nerd to talk to
15:48<andythenorth>why aren't these in TTD?
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15:48<__ln__>i actually had a vendor t-shirt, but i don't know how well known the vendor is.
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15:49*planetmaker has recently found a few nice vehicles for HEQS :D
15:50<@planetmaker> and similar
15:51<@planetmaker>capacity: one earthquake
15:51<andythenorth>oh seismic thumpers
15:56<@planetmaker>and drilling rigs:,_Nov_2012.jpg
15:56<@planetmaker>capacity: one oil well
15:56<@planetmaker>(or water well)
15:58<@planetmaker>oh, yeah, much nicer image
15:59<@planetmaker>but indeed... cargo can comprise any primary excavation industry
16:23*andythenorth needs to draw some cargo icons
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16:56<krinn>tile heigh is a nibble and bits are corners?
16:56<krinn>what the upper bits do ?
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>say which corners of the tile are raised
16:57<@planetmaker>krinn, tile height is a variable and the slope is a separate variable which can be understood as bitset
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>see docs/tileh.png
16:57<@planetmaker>depends on where / what / how
16:58<krinn>looking at it Eddi|zuHause actually all raised is missing :)
16:59<@planetmaker>lol, krinn
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, because that does not occur :)
16:59<krinn>you mean all raised is 0 with height value change?
17:02<krinn>i could xor slope to get wanted slope so
17:05<@planetmaker>krinn, I also would expect tile height be be in the range 0 ... 255
17:05<@planetmaker>at least in principle. Practically 0 ... 15
17:06<krinn>well, for the base tile, that would ease the thing a lot
17:08<@planetmaker>you have the enum Corner for GS/AI:
17:09<@planetmaker>mind that foundations might alter the appearance / remove the slope
17:09<krinn>yeah but can't figure out who was who with the tileh.png doc
17:10<@planetmaker>yeah, that's the number of the slope. As created by that bitset
17:11<krinn>i was looking at the GetComplementSlope, but the doc is ~ on it
17:11<krinn>was thinking it gave the bitmask to apply to end with a flat tile
17:11<@planetmaker> explains bits possibly
17:11*Supercheese wonders how functional the Newgrf webtranslator business is currently
17:11<frosch123> <- there is also that list
17:12<frosch123>with pictures
17:12<@planetmaker>and bitmasks actually
17:12<NGC3982>Ooh. Pictures. I love pictures.
17:12<krinn>wow frosch123 now that's elite doc !
17:13<frosch123>well, slopes are so common that there is documentation in at least 4 places :p
17:13<frosch123>you just need to pick the nicest one :)
17:13<krinn>looks like noai/nogo needs more ref to newgrf specs doc :)
17:14<andythenorth>good night
17:14<krinn>my last link is buggy dead
17:14<@planetmaker>g'night andythenorth
17:14<krinn>night andythenorth
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17:14<frosch123>krinn: anyway, towns also use the logic to lower the corners in the bitset, or raise the corners in the complement bitset, to get a flat tile
17:14<frosch123>which fails on steep slopes, but noone ever cared
17:15<frosch123>towns just terraform randomly, so it might fix itself later on :p
17:15<krinn>would been easy if i was a town :)
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17:16<krinn> timeout
17:17<frosch123>vcs is always out of memory
17:17<@planetmaker>hm, that's why?
17:18<frosch123>no idea :p
17:18<krinn>it was to inform
17:18<@planetmaker>anyway, I got the idea to reduce my sleep deficit. Good night everyone :-)
17:18<krinn>i swap my old link with frosch123 's one
17:18<frosch123>there was a time where it was always the reason, so i started implying that every software issue on every webserver is always cause by oom :)
17:18<krinn>night planetmaker
17:18<Supercheese>Sleep well
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>i'm somehow always out of disk space
17:20<krinn>yeah Eddi|zuHause porn take so much space
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>i keep cleaning up, but it's always full afterwards
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>i should move everything to /dev/shm
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>and then restart
17:21<Supercheese>Hard drives seem to shrink over time
17:21<Supercheese>in my case, I can probably blame OS bloat
17:21<Supercheese>Windowses likely generate a bunch of junk files doing who knows what and never deletes them
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>but those OS files would be on /
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>which is severely limited in size, compared to the rest
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17:24<krinn>i have a tiny server that is just sharing space with that comp. It run a minimal version of the os, no gui, and plenty of hdd, and one with a big temp direction shared that is clean up every 24 h
17:25<krinn>:) /sdirection/directory
17:25<krinn>(i'm too much into direction, tile and slope)
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17:41<Zuu>krinn: :-)
17:42<Zuu>Did you see my slope helpers in SuperLib.Tile?
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17:42<krinn>Zuu, no going to see it
17:43<Zuu>It is quite wired up with SuperLib.Direction.
17:43<Zuu>The later define the 8 directions and has some helpers to work with that.
17:44<krinn>let me have a look, if i don't have to re-invent the wheel
17:44<krinn>i'm doing a slope to slope convertion : from any to SLOPE_SW, NE, SE or NW
17:44<Zuu>Most of the slope helpers are to figure out if something can be built on a tile or not.
17:45<krinn>so it's not to build on flat, but on slope
17:46<Zuu>Sounds like Tile.IsBuildOnSlope_UpSlope(tile_id, direction) and Tile.IsBuildOnSlope_DownSlope(tile_id, direction)
17:47<krinn>i was looking at those one
17:47<krinn>but it only answer if the slope is ready to be use, not building the slope to a ready to use one
17:48<krinn> return ((slope & AITile.SLOPE_N) != 0x00 || (slope & AITile.SLOPE_E) != 0x00) && // must have either N or E tile raised
17:48<krinn> ((slope & AITile.SLOPE_S) == 0x00 && (slope & AITile.SLOPE_W) == 0x00); // and neither of S or W
17:48<Zuu>Right, none of the methods in the "Slope info" section do landscaping
17:49<krinn>why not just : return slope == AITile.SLOPE_NE ?
17:51<Zuu>Because, that will not include cases when a fundation will be built
17:52<krinn>oh i'm doing water, no fundation so
17:52<Zuu>You have == AITile.Slope_NE in Tile.IsUpSlope
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17:53<Zuu>The "IsBuildOnSlope_" in "IsBuildOnSlope_UpSlope" indicate that it will check if building road/rail in the given direction on the given tile will cause the tile to act as an up slope.
17:53<krinn>ah ok, was looking at wrong function so
17:54<krinn>my approch is s_slope = slope ^ AITile.SLOPE_NE but i'm unsure next will works
17:55<krinn>(testmode, AITile.RaiseTile(tile, s_slope); and test if AITile.GetSlope(tile) == AITile.SLOPE_NE now)
17:55<krinn>but i'm not sure if testmode, will answer right to the AITile.GetSlope(tile)
17:56<Zuu>Test mode will not modify the terrain. Thus AITile.GetSlope will return the same value as calling it before RaiseTile in test mode.
17:57<krinn>erf, bad, i was thinking it may answer in context
17:57<Zuu>That would require that test mode create a copy of the map that you can modify.
17:57<krinn>well, not the map, but the affected tiles
17:58<krinn>seems like that approch is a dead end so
17:58<Zuu>That would requrie inventing a way of "only" copying the affected tiles.
17:59<krinn>the cost function does that no ? or it just add cost and discard it
18:00<Zuu>AIAccounting will record the cost of commands.
18:01<Zuu>In test mode I think costs will be added to AIAccounting as well. However all commands will be tested against the world as it is.
18:01<krinn>hmmm, i must rethink about that slope problem, as it gets more complex without aitestmode
18:02<Zuu>AITestMode is more or less like holding shift when you play as human. Using it you can test if eg. building a station in a town is allowed without actually doing it.
18:03<Zuu>Shift clicking will also include the cost of the operation if it can be performed.
18:03<krinn>that would be at least good to see if i could raise the tile or not without checking all neighbor tiles
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18:04<krinn>but i must now calc if the result will be SLOPE_NE in all slope case prior doing it :/
18:05<Zuu>Mind that landscaping commands for human players will succed even if not all requested landscaping was possible to be completed. I don't remember, but think the same applies to AIs.
18:05<krinn>for my purpose, it should answer 100% as i will only do 1 raisetile command
18:06<krinn>i'm doing terraform to get SLOPE_NE, SW, NW or NE
18:06<Zuu>Well, if you only raise a corner that is true. But if you raise a whole tile, perhaps only 3 of 4 corners could be raiised?
18:07<krinn>but i will raise all needed corners in one command
18:07<krinn>are you saying raising 2 corners in one command == 2 commands?
18:08<Zuu>What I say is that I fear that asking to raise 4 corners, and only 3 succeed, the command might still return sucess instead of rejecting to do anything.
18:08<krinn>what a complex thing just to change a slope :)
18:09<Zuu>It is the case for humans, and was probably for AIs early on. I don't know if that has changed later, so that is why I would be careful and test this to see how it works.
18:09<krinn>yeah, seems i need invest time in testing that, and i was happy my solve was fast at first
18:10<Zuu>A lot of operations for humans will rather complete X % of the requested job than failing unless 100 % can be done.
18:10<Zuu>For road/rail construction, I'm quite certain AIs has an exception now that the operation will fail unless the whole distance could be built. For landscaping I'm not sure there is a such exception for AIs.
18:22<krinn>i'm playing with ships, what is max distance before getting lost ?
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18:34<krinn>hi SamanthaD
18:34<SamanthaD>hey krinn!
18:34<SamanthaD>*waves to everyone*
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18:51<krinn>how you negate a in (!(that in this)) ?
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>in what language/context?
18:52<krinn>i think it works liek c++ mostly for bitwise op
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>i still don't understand the question
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18:56<krinn>i just want test something is not in
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>so, and why did your attempted solution not work?
18:58<krinn>it is, i fail with (!this in that)
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>but you do spot the difference between this line and the one above?
19:00<krinn>yep, that's why i ask if the first one was ok
19:00<krinn>but since i have test
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>then next time, please use more words. because i honestly did not understand what you meant
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19:02<krinn>i don't know what words i could have add to help
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19:05<Eddi|zuHause>how about "i have this line of code <X>, it is meant to do <Y>, but fails. would <Z> be the right solution?"
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19:50<+glx>bitwise not is ~ in C(++)
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>glx: but he didn't want bitwise
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>he wanted logical
19:55<+glx><krinn> i think it works liek c++ mostly for bitwise op
19:55<+glx>looks bitwise enough for me :)
19:55<krinn>yes, mistake, i want say bitwise/logical are ...
19:56<krinn>but it was logical not
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>glx: don't listen to what he says, listen to what he means :p
19:58<krinn>and you can ~ 1 or 0 but i'm not sure you can ~ a boolean
19:59<krinn>does C use boolean as a type or just numbers ?
20:00<+glx>no bool in C, only ints
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20:01<krinn>well, maybe the language will accept that, but sure gcc will throw a warning
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: but ~1 is not 0
20:03<krinn>didn't say that Eddi|zuHause don't try fool me :)
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>and "in" doesn't have to return 1
20:03<krinn>well, if C doesn't have a boolean type "in" should return 1 or 0 no ?
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>squirrel docs specifically say "in" returns non-zero
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>so it can return 2, or 65535, or ...
20:06<krinn>yep but it says also it return null on success
20:06<krinn>and ~null ?
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>~0 is -1
20:06<krinn>~0 is ffffff...
20:06<+glx>-1 or max_uint
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>depending on whether you interpret it signed or unsigned
20:07<krinn>isn't -1 the ~1 ?
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>no, - and ~ are different things :)
20:09<+glx>~1 is 0xFFF...FFE
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>~0 = -1, ~1 = -2, ~2 = -3, etc.
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>it's "off by one" (see 2-complement)
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20:10<krinn>well, i was think it was ~x == max_uint -x
20:10<krinn>like glx said
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes, again, just depending on whether you interpret it signed or unsigned
20:11<+glx>that's the same :)
20:12<krinn>ah ok, i suppose sign return max_int version, and non sign return the negative one ?
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>for all intents and purposes, internally, max_uint == -1
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>so if you replace it as ~x == -1-x, it's the same expression
20:13<krinn>ok thank you for the lesson guys, i should do c one day :)
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>this has nothing to do with C, anyway
20:15<krinn>i don't remember how pascal handle that, but i think it's language specific how this is implemented
20:16<+glx>pascal does exactly like C
20:16<krinn>in pascal boolean is a type, so ~ is not allow on boolean
20:16<+glx>of course
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20:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but there is the ord() function
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>but this 2-complement is implemented on all modern processors (where "modern" is at least the 1980's)
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>other common methods of representing negative numbers are 1-complement (not used anymore) and sign/absolute (used with floating point numbers)
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>1-complement has the advantage of the same number of negative numbers as positive numbers (2-complement has 1 additional negative number, which cannot be converted to a positive number without leaving the value range), but the disadvantage of having two representations of 0
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>sign/absolute has that same problem, but for floating point maths, things are more complicated anyway
20:22<krinn>you mean 1 complement : ~1 is just -1 ~100 is -100... hence why ~0 = 0
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, 0 and -0 are different internal values internally
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>-0 would be FF...FF
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>since this means, the very common "check for 0" and the "is this equal" operations get more complicated (in hardware!), this format is not used anymore
20:25<+glx>"is this equal" being "is the difference is 0"
20:26<krinn>to not get a if (0 < ~0) failure
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>you need a special case for "000000 == FFFFFF"
20:26<+glx>0 is always < ~0
20:27<+glx>as I guess ~0 is assumed to be unsigned
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>which makes the hardware more complicated
20:27<krinn>glx i speak about the 1-complement 0
20:28<krinn>but i get it (i think)
20:29<krinn>i just cannot remember how i was handling that in pascal (it's old)
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 12 00:00:56 2013