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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-08-13

---Logopened Tue Aug 13 00:00:57 2013
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03:08<dihedral>good morning
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03:33<maddy_>hello
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03:38<maddy_>since the game has a scripting language used for AIs and gamescripts, I am thinking it could also be used for small in-game scripts to control signals and the like
03:38<maddy_>similar to the programmable signals patch, but better
03:40<maddy_>what do you guys think?
03:40<@planetmaker>hi
03:41<@planetmaker>maddy_, in principle that's thinkable. Practically you then have no means to tell what a signal acts on. Even less so, if they're freely programmable by scripting language. Additionally the state of signals is not exposed nor is there any interface to access them other than by tile and direction information by the train controller
03:44<maddy_>I am thinking for things like priorities and stuff, couldn't I just add one programmable signal for these special cases, then attach a script to it, and the script is run everytime the signal state needs to be checked
03:46<maddy_>at the script level, I would really only need to know the state of the nearby signals, if I can get that in some meaningful way
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03:48<maddy_>of course if I could get information about the incoming train to the signal script, then it'd be really easy to do things like splits based on cargo type, etc
03:55<dihedral>maddy_, i think that would impose nasty load on the server
03:55<dihedral>and the client
03:55<dihedral>esp in multiplayer the script would have to be placed on each client
03:55<dihedral>this is not the case for ai or gs
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03:56<@planetmaker>that is not a principle problem if handled similarily to NewGRFs which also each client must have.
03:57<@planetmaker>But the definition of "nearby" eludes me :-) As anything you normally want can be done by means of block or path signals. Otherwise you want signals from all-over accessible for programming
03:57<@planetmaker>or information on whether a station is blocked etc. And then a network becomes virtually un-debuggable ;-)
03:58<@peter1138>signal 1 = !signal 2
03:58<@peter1138>signal 2 = !signal 1
03:58<@peter1138>YEAH BOY
03:59<@peter1138>actually i think i mean signal 2 = signal 1
04:00<maddy_>ok, I have to go afk a bit, if this idea is at all feasibly, I will explore the possibility of trying to make some prototype of it
04:03<dihedral>planetmaker, i would expect it to be an issue ;-)
04:03<dihedral>distribution is not
04:05<dihedral>but that is more a gut feeling, and probably worth nothing :-P
04:09<@peter1138>handling signal scripts like a newgrf seems fundamentally wrong, heh
04:10<@planetmaker>well :-) I do agree. Feasible != desirable :-)
04:11<dihedral>but then why do we need to discuss other peoples desires? that just "seems fundamentally wrong" also
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04:16<@peter1138>what?
04:17<dihedral>depending on the desire of course
04:17<dihedral>:-P
04:18<@peter1138>all i meant was that newgrfs are general, even if game-wide. signal scripts are going to be specific to the situation
04:19<@peter1138>unless you argue that you just want premade scripts for a type of junction
04:19<dihedral>can a grf not add a new signal ?
04:19<@peter1138>in which case you could also argue for copy & paste of map chunks...
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04:19<dihedral>hehe
04:19<dihedral>not again
04:20<dihedral>thank you peter1138 - now i had to think of people like peter_t, muxy, yorick.....
04:20<dihedral>you genius
04:22<@peter1138>you're welcome
04:22<@peter1138>i personally prefer to think of pretty women
04:26*dihedral thinks of peter1138
04:27<dihedral>i am trying....
04:33<Eddi|zuHause>i think a "full-blown script engine" is totally overkill for programmable signals
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04:36<TinoDidriksen>Such an engine will almost certainly be used for other things in the future.
04:36<Eddi|zuHause>also, i think a "script" should not be attached to a signal, but to a whole block of signals. possibly with a way to include/exclude signals. then only signals of this block can be accessed/modiified
04:37<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, attach it to a type of signals ;-)
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>that makes absolutely no sense, this early in the morning...
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04:41<V453000>I think programmable signals are total overkill :) especially without some simplified gui
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, like some SCADA system where you just graphically connect things and they start to do stuff
04:43<V453000>that would be nice too, but I mainly meant something like the link graph does - draw links beetween stations - between signals in this case
04:43<V453000>otherwise it is inevitable brutal mess if you cant directly see which signal logically connects to which
04:47<V453000>the current solution of signal logic is nicer because it is visible, if that would be substituted by something, the feature might make at least some sense
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, "just pipe it to squirrel" is totally the wrong approach
04:49<V453000>not .nut :)
04:49<V453000>*no
04:52<@peter1138>dihedral, sorry, i am not a pretty woman
04:53<V453000>I am I am
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04:57<dihedral>V453000, not quite - you'r just a woman
04:57<dihedral>:-P
04:57<V453000>:( sad cow
04:57<V453000>moo
04:57<dihedral>:-D
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04:58<maddy_>well if the idea wasn't outright rejected as impossible or totally stupid, I think I will look into it
04:59<@peter1138>dihedral, unless you consider any of these pretty women... http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr02/2013/8/1/20/enhanced-buzz-30511-1375404007-15.jpg
05:05<dihedral>is that you? i thought you were one of those ugly hairy women :-P
05:05<dihedral>maddy_, just do not be disappointed
05:06<@peter1138>if you can make it work, cool
05:08<maddy_>I am an ugly haired man, tho not pictured in the above link
05:09<maddy_>I am not very familiar with openttd insides, which is why I am asking would such a project be possible? so I don't waste my time with something that won't work out in the end due to openttd inner mechanics
05:11<dihedral>possible is one thing - feasible or sensible is the other
05:11<maddy_>like, the code which determines if a signal is green or red, would it be possible to insert a 'hook' to that function, and call a script?
05:11<dihedral>it would not make much sense
05:11<dihedral>as you would need access to a bunch of further signals, which you do not have
05:12<dihedral>at least not in the scripts
05:12<maddy_>but couldn't I just pass the relevant game state (e.g. any nearby signals) to the script
05:12<dihedral>erh....
05:12<dihedral>nearby signals iirc are determined by the pathfinder
05:14<dihedral>obviously this also depends on the signal type you are using
05:14<maddy_>sure
05:15<maddy_>I will look at the code later tonight when I get a chance
05:23<maddy_>I am just thinking since there already exists an embedded scripting language, like 90% of the work is already done
05:49<@planetmaker>maddy_, I think that much less is done to make it work. It need work on multiplayer and scripts only work server-side. But they work globally while signals work locally. And they are part of one of the most time critical things in the game: path finding
05:59<maddy_>yeah there's a lot to think about, for sure
06:01<maddy_>are regular signals handled on client or server side?
06:03<maddy_>btw, I wasn't thinking of the scripts as separate entities like say newgrfs, but internal to the game state / save game
06:13<maddy_>that should make it a bit simpler I hope
06:14<dihedral>everything (with the exception of ai and gs) is handled client side
06:14<maddy_>ok
06:16<dihedral>to me that signal thing just shouts for desyncs :-)
06:17<maddy_>I'm a total beginner when it comes to openttd source, but why?
06:17<dihedral>because every client does calculations them selves, every frame has to be the exact same result of calculation
06:18<dihedral>between clients there can be a lag of (default) up to 500 frames? something like that
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06:18<dihedral>or was it 500 ticks?
06:18<dihedral>i am confusing myself now
06:19<maddy_>so...if the same script is executed on 2 clients, with different cpu speeds and stuff, we could end up with different outcomes on those 2 clients
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06:19<dihedral>anyway - if something is different by a tad - allowing a train to pass a signal one one client and not for another....
06:19<roboboy>not verry good
06:19<dihedral>if different cpu speeds were causing a problem there would be no multiplayer
06:20<maddy_>ok, but what would desync it then?
06:20<dihedral>a green on one client and a red on the server
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06:45<@peter1138>hmm, need a decent dvb viewer
06:45<@peter1138>me-tv works but has annoyances
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07:13<wakou2>Any opensuse users here? Which repo should I be getting openttd from?
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07:14<V453000>root\beer
07:18<@planetmaker>wakou2, you probably want the generic OpenTTD binary from http://www.openttd.org/en/download-stable
07:19<@peter1138>when do we implement an auto updater? :D
07:20<V453000>I was almost correct
07:21<wakou2>planetmaker: don't want really to be compliling tars etc. I currently have 1.3.1 from the repo..
07:22<@peter1138>the binary tar is... already compiled...
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07:39<Eddi|zuHause>wakou2: opensuse has a "games" repo
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>which has openttd in it
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>if it's not up to date, blame the manager
07:41<V453000>if it is up to date, blame them anyway
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>when was the last time anyone saw Ammler, anyway?
07:41<V453000>long :(
07:41<__ln__>@seen Ammler
07:41<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Ammler was last seen in #openttd 17 weeks, 0 days, 17 hours, 44 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <Ammler> oh and just for your info, those grfs are in the grfpack anyway, I posted those there for the non-pack users back then
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08:30<Snoopey78>Hello Together
08:30<@planetmaker>moin
08:30<Snoopey78>Is there anyone of the openttd.org Homepage ? I would like to publish my Public Server Address
08:32<@planetmaker>:D we don't publish addresses. Have it run and it will be added to the server list
08:32<@planetmaker>make sure you allow 'advertizing'
08:33<@planetmaker>aka connection to the master server
08:33<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Lan_internet
08:34<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Server_advertise
08:35<@planetmaker>the server list at http://www.openttd.org/en/servers updates itself every few minutes w/o manual intervention
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09:30<maddy_>cool the openttd svn server is pretty fast
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09:30<Eddi|zuHause>unless you check out /
09:32<V453000>beer
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09:48<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, if YOU check out / it is slow for everybody
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09:52<maddy_>where do the language files go on compile?
09:53<maddy_>found them
09:54<@planetmaker>maddy_, make bundle && cp -Rf bundle/* server-folder
09:54<maddy_>cool I got as far as to compile openttd and run it without problems
09:54<maddy_>planetmaker: I'm on windows
09:55<@planetmaker>also windows builds have the equivalent of 'make bundle'
09:57<maddy_>ok, got around it by just copying the files manually to existing openttd installation
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>if you just copied the .exe and the .lng files, you forgot half of it
10:02<maddy_>good point, copied the rest over too
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10:22<dihedral>this for sure smells like .. :-)
10:27<V453000>beer doesnt smell
10:28<@planetmaker>It does. Nicely
10:29<@planetmaker>it doesn't stink, though ;-)
10:31<V453000>no, beer is the default, normal air is like negative
10:32<V453000>therefore air negatively smells
10:41<@planetmaker>sorry, I forgot that :-(
10:41<V453000>:>
10:42<V453000>the council of alcoholism will let you go unpunished for this once
10:42<maddy_>so, how does it sound if I added a new signal type, then (for that type, if a script exists), run the script in UpdateSignalsAroundSegment (signal.cpp) function?
10:48<@peter1138>try it and find out
10:49<maddy_>yeah I gotta figure out how to run scripts first
10:51*Rubidium decrees that beer is yuck and stinks ;)
10:52<V453000>@kickme
10:52<V453000>asdf
10:52<V453000>!kickme
10:52<V453000>pff
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10:53<V453000>your bot is weak
10:53<V453000>!harakiri
10:53<V453000>hm
10:54*Rubidium ponders requesting the @kickme feature together with an automatic ban
10:54<V453000>:d
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11:10<maddy_>so is there any prob with just creating a new script instance that I want to use client side? you said earlier that ai/gamescripts run on the server
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11:21<@peter1138>client-side actually means "all-sides" in ottd :D
11:26<maddy_>it's obvious I will need a bit of help from you who know the source
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>maddy_: you need to use the command system to transfer stuff to all clients (see "DoCommand" and "DoCommandP")
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11:31<@planetmaker>maddy_, I'd recon the MUCH easier approach would be to allow signal logic in a similar way that you can use conditional orders for vehicles
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>not that nobody ever thought the order system needs a cleanup :p
11:32<@planetmaker>i.e. w/o resorting to scripts and hard-coding the possible choices, but allowing choice trees
11:32<@planetmaker>Never ever, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
11:32<@planetmaker>you clearly are the first to bring it up :D
11:34<krinn>wonder what "MUCH easier" could mean... as if a "custom" logic can be set on signals, the server must handle all signals and send state to clients
11:35<@planetmaker>krinn, you'd have an "order list" for the signal. You could borrow most infrastructure for that from current order list
11:35<@planetmaker>if you use scripts, you'll have to re-invent all that infrastructure
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11:35<@planetmaker>and additionally find means to transfer basically their source code in DoCommands
11:35<@planetmaker>Which have a rather limited size
11:36<krinn>so signals logic remain on client side?
11:37<krinn>forget it, i was thinking you were speaking about client controlling the state of signals, while you seems to speak about client able to check/react to signals state only
11:37<@planetmaker>clearly the client wants to be able to programme the behaviour, thus change the decision algorithm. But not the actual state
11:39<krinn>that's why i see the "much easier" and think wtf! nothing scare him
11:40<@planetmaker>:-)
11:40<krinn>btw hi guys :)
11:41<maddy_>planetmaker: but isn't that done already, the old "programmable signals" patch?
11:41<@planetmaker>what's the definition of 'done'?
11:41<krinn>something already inside openttd ?
11:42<maddy_>coded and diff available at tt-forums.net? I just know because I edited it myself a few years ago
11:42<@planetmaker>and yes, that's probably the way I mean. And it's major drawback is, that it lacks somewhat a nice GUI for players to see the impact of the programming. I.e. the scope of the programmed signals
11:44<@planetmaker>maddy_, thus IMHO the main work which should be thought about decently in advance: how do you want to properly convey the information on the programme to the user
11:44<@planetmaker>that's what never has been done. Also not in the old patch
11:44<maddy_>the problem with the old method, while pretty cool, does not allow the flexibility of what a script can do
11:45<@planetmaker>just telling you: the problem is the UI. Not the lack of flexibility
11:45<maddy_>probably true
11:47<@planetmaker>it needs a way to visualize the impact of the programmed signals
11:47<maddy_>I am just a bit uncomfortable with all the logic code in the programmed signals patch, it feels like extra overhead, compared to having it hidden inside squirrel
11:47<@planetmaker>inspecting the programming of every single one of 200 programmed signals on a map ... would make it otherwise impossible to find any issue
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11:49<maddy_>for scripts, a GUI could be just a simple textbox window
11:49<krinn>i don't think it's a good idea to gave such functions handling to squirrel, that language is too weird
11:51<@planetmaker>maddy_, a text window with a script does not explain the resulting logic on the viewport.
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11:51<@planetmaker>that's exactly the shortcoming I speak of :-)
11:51<@planetmaker>I want to be able to understand a signal without reading a 100-line script
11:52<maddy_>yeah a 100-line won't work, I was thinking they could be kept fairly short, and possibly developing a library of some kind for most common functions, which could then be reduced to maybe 1 line in the actual script
11:53<maddy_>if they were in the range of say 1 to 4 lines, I think it'd work
12:00<maddy_>DoCommand and DoCommandP seems to have a "text" parameter, wonder if that could be used
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12:18<@Alberth>o/
12:18<krinn>hi Alberth
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12:34<maddy_>so do you think I shouldn't attempt to do this?
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12:36<@Alberth>plain signals are already beyond being understood by many
12:37<krinn>well, maddy_ make a patch with : the signals, the GUI, and a default optional state to off so beginners won't even see them until allow
12:38<maddy_>well, sure, but this would be intended for more advanced players, probably not intended as something which would ever be included in trunk
12:38<krinn>if it's something that won't goes in openttd, i don't see why you are asking anyone if you should do it or not.
12:39<@planetmaker>^ yeah :-)
12:39<@Alberth>he wants a user-count > 1 :p
12:39<@Alberth>hi planetmaker
12:39<@planetmaker>oh, hi Alberth :-)
12:40<krinn>actually if he could make a nice GUI, that might also help users with "default signal" handling, as they are always lost
12:40<@planetmaker>I just prodded ^Spike^ to look into converting the DevZone DB ;-)
12:40<^Spike^>pssst... planetmaker i can read this
12:40<^Spike^>;0
12:40<^Spike^>;)
12:41<maddy_>well, but aren't the forums full of odd patches that some players like to play with, but won't be included in trunk due to not being suitable for most?
12:41<@planetmaker>I know. I looked and made sure you can't read it ;-)
12:41<@Alberth>too late, you have given yourself away now :)
12:41<@planetmaker>but don't tell everyone ;-)
12:41-!-megakacktus [~debussy@174-30-201-140.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:41<@planetmaker>Indeed I had to scroll the complete user list of this channel :-P
12:41<@Alberth>maddy_: most are just below trunk standards
12:42<^Spike^>i love my ^ :D
12:42<^Spike^>mirc shows me on top of the list... but most clients on the bottom :D
12:42<@planetmaker>:-)
12:44<maddy_>I'm sure more advanced players would like the fine grained control for signals that scripts would enable, but non-programmers wouldn't get them, so it's hard task to have the same feature serve those 2 user groups
12:45<@planetmaker>^ quite
12:46<dihedral>actually, those players with enough brains create nand flash with trains and signals
12:46<krinn>maddy_, i don't see what prevent you from making it optional, except more work
12:47<@planetmaker>hehe, dihedral :-)
12:47<maddy_>dihedral: yeah, those are cool in their own way, but those are exactly what I'd like to do in scripts...it would result in much cleaner track layout
12:47<dihedral>it basically needs to be a new signal type, krinn
12:47<dihedral>maddy_, but at what cost
12:48<krinn>dihedral, and what? you can activate rail speed or not... if he want, he can add an option to hide that new type of signal or not
12:49<maddy_>is there a gui widget already in game which acts like a multiline textbox? for editing the scripts
12:49<dihedral>go search :-P
12:49<@planetmaker>probably there's not, maddy_
12:50<@planetmaker>OpenTTD is not text editor (so far) :D
12:50<dihedral>why not look at existing patches that did programmable signals
12:50<dihedral>planetmaker, i smell a feature
12:50<krinn>maddy_, your script approch is a failure imo, do make pre-build system (like orders)
12:50<dihedral>krinn, pre build system??
12:50<@planetmaker>says one of the most active script writers :D
12:51<dihedral>:-D
12:51<dihedral>lol
12:51<maddy_>I have looked at the programmable signals patch
12:51<krinn>:D
12:51<dihedral>very good, maddy_ then you know how to make the multi line text box
12:52<krinn>dihedral, i mean instead of using script to handle it, he offer a number of choices already made by him, and user can only use them
12:53<krinn>dihedral, hence "pre-build", or ready made... flexibilty <> simplicity
12:54<dihedral>we have that already, yet aparently the available choice is not big enough
12:54<maddy_>why would scripts be a fail tho, if I included a squirrel library with some commonly used features, like priorities or 1:1 splits (which I saw done using logic stuff in openttdcoop)
12:56<krinn>if you do a library, then you lost your flexibility, i was thinking you want user "edit the script" and do what he want. And a c++ or squirrel library won't change anyone, as you will offer a limited choice to user (that pre-build choice i speak off)
12:56<dihedral>i am not sure it's as easy as you imagine it
12:56<dihedral>to be
12:56<maddy_>krinn: no, the library would contain some pre-built functions for common tasks, but it'd be fully user editable
12:57<krinn>so it will be a failure then
12:57<dihedral>in all honesty though, if you use a multi line text box in game to edit signal settings, remember the signal script (for each signal) must reach the server and be distributed to every client
12:57<krinn>why prevent me to edit it to access other squirrel functions to do something ?
12:57<krinn> s/why/what
12:57<dihedral>krinn, the layer in between
12:57<maddy_>krinn: you lost me there...the scripts would be fully editable by users
12:59<@planetmaker>I'd like to switch a signal in sinoidal way red/green ;-)
12:59<dihedral>maddy_, i am not quite sure you understand the implications of your enthusiastic vision
12:59<maddy_>dihedral: in what way?
12:59<dihedral>in every way
13:01<dihedral>i do not know how to put it any other way
13:01<maddy_>well, you have to be more specific, but in any case, I won't start this task since there's clearly no support for it among more experienced developers
13:01<dihedral>lol
13:02<dihedral>maddy_, you remind me of people visiting this channel and the forums long before you joined :-P
13:02<maddy_>why?
13:02<dihedral>" clearly no support for it among more experienced developers" <- that
13:02<dihedral>what do you expect
13:03<@planetmaker>maddy_, you should do, what you do, for your own profit and enjoyment
13:03-!-megakacktus [~debussy@174-30-201-140.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #openttd
13:03<dihedral>do you want people to be as enthusiastic about your idea as you are?
13:03<maddy_>dihedral: no
13:03<dihedral>and help you develop something
13:03<maddy_>I just appreciate the input of people who have spent years with the source, and know it so much better than me
13:04<dihedral>saying that the task actually is huge, bigger than you might think it is, is help
13:04<@Alberth>maddy_: if you ask specific questions, you get answers
13:04<dihedral>^ that
13:04<dihedral>thank you Alberth
13:04<dihedral>:-)(
13:04<dihedral>:-)
13:04<@Alberth>stuff like "I have an idea" is too global to comment on other than the idea itself
13:05<maddy_>Alberth: well yeah, I did ask some specific stuff too
13:05<dihedral>in all honesty, he/she did
13:06<dihedral>and in all fairness
13:06<krinn>i still don't get why you ask people if you can do something that will run only for you
13:07<@planetmaker>let's not bash him, ok? :-)
13:07<dihedral>however, maddy_, do not be discouraged to dig in the code, however be informed that the task is bigger than you expect it to be, and has huge implications, like mentioned earlier today you need to also be sure it works in multiplayer, and exactly that will cuse issues with the wrong approach
13:07<@Alberth>maddy_: I missed that, did you get an answer?
13:07<dihedral>planetmaker, who's bashing?
13:08<krinn>i wasn't saying that to bash him
13:08<maddy_>Alberth: irrelevant now, since I've decided not to pursue this specific task, I will think of some other patch to make instead
13:08<dihedral>maddy_, perhaps a piece of encouragement: start with small changes ;-)
13:08<maddy_>dihedral: yeah, the multiplayer aspect came up, but what specifically was wrong with my approach that would not work with multiplayer?
13:09<@Alberth>maddy_: ok
13:09<krinn>there's two way to make patch : doing it for you, you don't need any input on it from anyone. Or doing it in hope it get include, then this time, you can query devs to get hint of success.
13:09<dihedral>multiplayer is basically a single player with a 'relay' in the middle telling each client what actions other clients are performing
13:09<krinn>and planetmaker already answer you hints about it : make a gui, and i hint you : make it with an option
13:10<dihedral>so any script you enter in one signal must be sent to every other client
13:10<dihedral>further the script must use a syncronized type of random, else clients will be out of sync
13:10<maddy_>dihedral: yes
13:10<@Alberth>krinn: false, you can still need info about how some parts of the code work, or how to add stuff, or where to find stuff
13:10<dihedral>krinn, options can always be added later on ;-)
13:11<maddy_>the limitations of passing data between clients using the DoCommand stuff came up, would that be the problem?
13:11<dihedral>seeing as each client makes its own calculations, the result run on any client must be exactly the same for the exact same frame
13:12<@Alberth>you have about 32bit or so space, is that enough?
13:12<maddy_>dihedral: well, I don't think I would need randomness for basic scripts, and yeah they would/should return same result for all clients
13:13<dihedral>Alberth, lol
13:13<maddy_>Alberth: no, if strings would need to be passed
13:13<@Alberth>maddy_: then you have a challenge to make it work, to say the least
13:13<dihedral>hihi
13:14<dihedral>Alberth, where do you get that from?
13:14<maddy_>Alberth: ok, I just noticed the DoCommand has a "text" parameter, so I thought maybe I could pass something there
13:14<@planetmaker>without looking it up, it might be an error message ;-)
13:15<@Alberth>dihedral: ?
13:15<dihedral>are signs not a do command
13:15<@Rubidium>... but only up to ~100 bytes
13:15<maddy_>probably :)
13:15<dihedral>Alberth, just wondering where exactly the 32bit are still available
13:15<@Alberth>dihedral: oh, good point
13:15<dihedral>at what place
13:15<dihedral>a Rubidium \o/
13:16<@Alberth>parameter p1/p2?
13:16<maddy_>ok, now we are getting somewhere, specific reasons why the approach is not viable...instead of what dihedral is saying, which is general stuff like "it's huge" and "it won't work"
13:17<maddy_>so, that pretty much decides it I think, that I can forget the idea at least in it's initial form
13:17<@Alberth>maddy_: it's usually always viable for some form, the trick is to find that form
13:17<dihedral>maddy_, if you do not know the code, why should i explain the code, as you would then clearly not be able to follow
13:18<dihedral>and the trick is also to understand what is going on in the code and understand what implications are there
13:18<dihedral>and further, to find an approach that will take those implications into account
13:19<krinn>it's easy if "viable" mean can work, it is as you said someone made a patch for it already, and if viable is add in openttd, it is not, as this patch already lack a gui for that
13:19<dihedral>krinn, the lack of a patch does not mean it was not viable - patches can be declined for many reasons
13:19<@Alberth>and the best way to understand code and implications, is just to try a few times (and fail), learning each time what not to do.
13:20<dihedral>i could write a patch that lets me control a plane while mid air - i bet you that would not be accepted :-P
13:20<krinn>people are programming robots to walk on mars, how could adding a signal in openttd would be state as non-viable
13:20<dihedral>and probably you will find peter1138 already has a patch for that somewhere
13:20<dihedral>maddy_, and what Alberth sais :-)
13:20<maddy_>Alberth: yeah that works great, I just want to run an idea by experienced developers who can immediately say if it'll work or not, before wasting potentially hours (or days) of my time
13:21-!-amiller [~amiller@129-2-129-154.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #openttd
13:21<krinn>maddy_, you won't waste hours... you will work on something that may not work or you decide to drop, but hours spent teach you how to handle the code... so not lost hours, just some hours spent
13:22<@Rubidium>krinn: the same reason why installing Internet Explorer on Curiosity is non-viable?
13:22<dihedral>hehe
13:22<krinn>Rubidium, considering how its pathfinding is working, i'm sure MS built the OS that run on it :)
13:23<@Rubidium>oh does it's pathfinding work?
13:23<@Rubidium>s/oh/how/
13:23<@Rubidium>s/'//
13:24<@Rubidium>damn...
13:24<@Alberth>maddy_: but at global conceptual level it is hard to say, the devil is always in the details. I do disagree with you "wasting hours", you spent time on learning about the internal structure of openttd, knowledge that you will keep available. Having an dev tell you yes/no is not the same depth of knowledge
13:24<krinn>:) going dinner
13:24<maddy_>Alberth: sure
13:25<maddy_>and I do want to learn the openttd code, since I like the game, and the code is fairly clean and easy to read (I guess that's a compliment for you guys), just need to figure out some other project now
13:25<@Rubidium>krinn: because as far as I know the pathfinding is mostly done by humans with models and simulators on earth
13:27<@planetmaker>they recently upgraded its software. they just give it a destination and curiosity is supposed to go around (small) obstacles autonomously
13:28<@Alberth>maddy_: that will take you a few years :)
13:29-!-megakacktus [~debussy@174-30-201-140.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:30<@planetmaker>maddy_, I look at OpenTTD code for some years now... I'm sure there are code lines which I never looked at :-)
13:30<@planetmaker>I'm actually 100% positive. OS/2 code was so far of little interest :-P
13:30<dihedral>planetmaker, over 6 years for me now :-)
13:30<maddy_>for some reason I am not a big fan of the existing programmable signals patch
13:31<dihedral>maddy_, but it might help find a way of doing it, and it might show you all the areas in the code you need to tough
13:31<@planetmaker>well.... http://wiki.openttd.org/?title=World_Wide_OpenTTD_Game_Day/2&action=history tells me that I dig around for about 5 to 6 years :D
13:32<@planetmaker>@openttd 13481
13:32<@planetmaker>hm
13:32<@planetmaker>@commit 13481
13:32<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Commit by smatz :: r13481 trunk/src/dock_gui.cpp (2008-06-11 21:37:36 UTC)
13:32<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: -Codechange: add 'B' keyboard shortcut to build aqueduct (planetmaker)
13:32<dihedral>planetmaker, i was around for 6 years
13:32<@planetmaker>and I joined like 9 months earlier or so.
13:33<@planetmaker>or twelve.
13:35-!-glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
13:35-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
13:37<maddy_>oh, I could have just used the openttd console as the script gui ;) that'd been even easier I guess
13:37-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fddfe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
13:40<dihedral>@commit 9771
13:40<@DorpsGek>dihedral: Commit by peter1138 :: r9771 trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp (2007-05-02 19:00:59 UTC)
13:40<@DorpsGek>dihedral: -Feature: (-tte) Add password protected status to 'players' (network server) console command. (mostly dihedral)
13:40<dihedral>planetmaker, ^
13:41<+michi_cc>@commit 3008
13:41<@DorpsGek>michi_cc: Commit by Darkvater :: r3008 /trunk (13 files in 2 dirs) (2005-10-02 22:39:56 UTC)
13:41<@DorpsGek>michi_cc: [ 1247535 ] Native Support for Win64 (compile&run only) (michi_cc)
13:41<@DorpsGek>michi_cc: Fix warning in graph_gui.c with const problem
13:41<+michi_cc>Mine's longer :p
13:42<@planetmaker>wow, I didn't know you were around *that* long, michi_cc :-)
13:43-!-killertester [~igor@pppoe-77-75-13-50.ppp.kmv.ru] has joined #openttd
13:43<frosch123>hmm, yeah, that has quite a chance to be second after tb
13:43<frosch123>when is first commit of gl*/peter*/rubi* ?
13:44<@Rubidium>@commit 3511
13:44<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Commit by tron :: r3511 /trunk (59 files in 4 dirs) (2006-02-01 07:36:15 UTC)
13:44<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: More whitespace ([FS#46] by Rubidium)
13:44<dihedral>michi_cc, it's not a matter of size :-P
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25721 /trunk/src/lang (lithuanian.txt slovenian.txt) (2013-08-13 17:45:19 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 32 changes by Stabilitronas
13:45<@DorpsGek>slovenian - 14 changes by matej1245
13:45<frosch123>2231 is first mentioning of peter
13:46<@Rubidium>@commit 3729
13:46<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Commit by rubidium :: r3729 /branches/tfc_newmap (4 files) (2006-03-02 07:11:16 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: [tfc_newmap] - Synching to trunk r3727 and fix mismerges of r3726 and r3710
13:46<frosch123>oh, gl* is even earlier, r2100 :p
13:46<@Rubidium>might be my first actual commit ;)
13:47<frosch123>well, my first checkout was something around 7000 :p
13:47<frosch123>way later :p
13:47<dihedral>a small total of 36 commits - could have been more planetmaker :-D
13:47<dihedral>haha
13:48<__ln__>@commit 1297
13:48<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Commit by miham :: r1297 /trunk (18 files) (2004-12-29 13:13:29 UTC)
13:48<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Language fixes in the source.. (ln-)
13:48<@planetmaker>that can't be you, __ln__
13:48<dihedral>planetmaker, it says "Language fixes" that for sure is __ln__
13:49<@planetmaker>no. the nick is wrong. totally
13:49<frosch123>dihedral: it's his brother
13:49<dihedral>lol
13:49<@planetmaker>that sounds likely, yes
13:49<krinn>tt forum sold its cpu and get an old zx81 at work?
13:50<@Alberth>krinn: yep, it was cheaper
13:51<__ln__>i've only been __ln__ instead of ln- since ... i don't remember when, but only on oftc.
13:58<dihedral>__ln__, that was such a shocking comment, nobody seems capable to find the right words for that :-P
13:59-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host130-14-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
13:59<Wolf01>hello
13:59<LordAro>__ln__: why'd you change?
13:59<LordAro>oh ancient one
14:00<__ln__>i don't remember really, could have been to avoid a ban mask or something
14:04-!-ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:04<krinn>who do aystar6 ?
14:04<LordAro>yexo or tb, probably
14:04<krinn>@param cost_callback should accept four parameters, old_path, new_tile, new_direction and
14:04<krinn> * cost_callback_param
14:05<krinn>this._cost = cost_callback(pf_instance, old_path, new_tile, new_direction);
14:05<__ln__>regarding 1297, here are the language fixes: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/1297 ... so yes, it is me
14:06<dihedral>krinn, what exactly did you want to tell us?
14:07<krinn>doc doesn't match the function
14:08<dihedral>and you did check that there is no default set. allowing to call it with just three params?
14:08<krinn>i show the call -> this._cost = cost_callback(pf_instance, old_path, new_tile, new_direction);
14:09<dihedral>... wow
14:09<dihedral>you really do seem to know what you are doing :-P
14:09<krinn>not always, but this time, yeah
14:09<dihedral>then look where the function is defined
14:10-!-Tom_Soft [~id@37.140.99.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:10<krinn>...
14:11-!-SamanthaD [~SamanthaD@c-98-248-25-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
14:11<SamanthaD>hey everyone!
14:11<maddy_>hi
14:11<@Alberth>hi hi
14:11<krinn>hi only you
14:11<SamanthaD>haha
14:12<dihedral>krinn, where is that code from??
14:12<krinn>dihedal, well, from aystar6
14:12<dihedral>pfff
14:12<dihedral>:-P
14:12<krinn>:D
14:12<dihedral>some ai?
14:12<krinn>library yes
14:12<dihedral>pfff
14:13<krinn>must be in devzone i check
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14:13<krinn>done by yexo
14:14<LordAro>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6559 <-- here's the original announcement thread, if you want to see whose older than __ln__ and still here :p
14:16<dihedral>Rubidium, slow is an understatement for tt-forums
14:16<LordAro>^ :(
14:16<SamanthaD>woooaaaaah, that's like a museum display!
14:17<LordAro>indeed, the only name i reocgnise (other than sir rudge) is GoneWacko, but he's only in #tycoon
14:17<LordAro>@commit 1297
14:17<@DorpsGek>LordAro: Commit by miham :: r1297 /trunk (18 files) (2004-12-29 13:13:29 UTC)
14:17<@DorpsGek>LordAro: Language fixes in the source.. (ln-)
14:17<LordAro>^ the original reason for bringing this up, SamanthaD
14:18<SamanthaD>That's sad... I guess people got bored with trains!
14:18<dihedral>i also remember SirkoZ
14:19<dihedral>but i do not want to read all 7 pages, not because I had anything better to do, but I don't want to wait for them to load
14:21<LordAro>i believe i've seen Roman around also, and a few others, but none of them recently
14:21-!-Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-81-174.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
14:23<Wolf01>I'm here since that time too, I remember all of them :P
14:23-!-Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:23<LordAro>oh, and mr Wolf01 is at least on the last page
14:23<LordAro>indeed :)
14:24<krinn>i was 2 years old in 2004 so i'm not in
14:24<LordAro>:O you're a young'un
14:24<Chrill>pfft. I have brothers younger than krinn
14:24<Chrill>I WIN
14:24<Chrill>I WIN LIFE
14:24<LordAro>:)
14:25<krinn>LordAro, or i lie
14:25<LordAro>lie? on the internet? who would do such a thing?
14:25<Wolf01>I just finished high school at that time
14:26<krinn>LordAro, politicians are on the net too
14:26-!-Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
14:27<LordAro>troo :)
14:27<LordAro>Rubidium/whoever, backporting documentation updates from 1.3.2 seems to have been forgotten
14:28<LordAro>also, http://wiki.libsdl.org/moin.fcg/MigrationGuide <-- who's up for doing that? :p
14:28-!-Progman [~progman@p57A18A1C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>when i came here, michi_cc was already the "win64 release guy"
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>not that i ever needed such a thing
14:30<@planetmaker>LordAro, you? :D
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>only somewhat later the compilefarm produced win64 builds for releases
14:31<krinn>can wait to have forcefeedback support in openttd !
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>"is lab-grown meat kosher/halal?"
14:32<krinn>depend how u kill it
14:32<krinn>oh the meat, not the animal, ok don't know then :)
14:33<frosch123>krinn: do you know what neighbours are important does?
14:33<frosch123>it's also active in your game
14:33<frosch123>anyway, the clearing pattern is weird
14:33<frosch123>as in, it's a complex shape
14:33<krinn>nao is just a gs
14:34<krinn>it do control town rating if neighbor town are too small, the town get a small rate
14:34<krinn>grrr, town growth rate
14:34<krinn>i don't think nai is doing that
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: the point is that you don't have to kill an animal to get the meat :p
14:34<krinn>my ai could have done it, but not to that big shape
14:35<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause, you mean you could just ask it for its meat?
14:35<krinn>i have functions to clean tree, but limited in size, so i'm sure it's not the ai frosch123
14:35<krinn>frosch123, and of course not me :)
14:36-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc22-aztw25-2-0-cust272.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
14:36<andythenorth>troll or not troll?
14:37<@peter1138>yesnoabortdiskfull
14:37<krinn>frosch123, if it help, when i reload the savegame to check it was the good savegame, the industry : "Rennes raffinerie pétrolière", next to the big clean was also cleaned for no reason
14:37*andythenorth decides not troll
14:38<SamanthaD>Eddi: You don't have to kill an animal to get the meat anyway... but the ASPCA didn't buy it...
14:38*krinn think Eddi|zuHause just eat animal alive
14:38<frosch123>krinn: what does limited in size mean?
14:39<frosch123>the area is not rectangular, so it's not one big area, but many small ones
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: the meat was grown from a few cells
14:39<krinn>limit to town area
14:39<krinn>frosch123, i think town influence area
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>without an animal attached to it
14:40<andythenorth>not trolling lego fans is boring
14:40<andythenorth>but trolling them will get me mod warning
14:40<frosch123>krinn: ok, what version of your ai is running exactly?
14:40<krinn>sadly a pre170
14:40<krinn>so one that change a lot
14:41<krinn>i have put it in another issue with orders
14:41<krinn>wait checking the #
14:41<frosch123>did you restart your ai or something?
14:41<frosch123>all expenses are zero
14:41<krinn>yes frosch123
14:41<frosch123>and it started only 11 days ago
14:41<krinn>i always reload it in those test
14:42<krinn>and cheat to gave it money to let it build trains
14:42<krinn>so the ai have the money to do havock if it wish
14:42<krinn>but honestly it's not what happen here
14:42<frosch123>i am quite sure it must be the ai then :p
14:42<krinn>:D
14:43<krinn>the shape of clean tiles isn't even a square
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>of course, there's an isometric distortion to the square :p
14:44<krinn>and i was testing the ai of course, i would have seen it if the ai was working on that so many tiles
14:45<krinn>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5656 i have upload a pre170 there frosch123
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>NYT: "why did you go to a foreign newspaper instead of to us?" - Snowden: "Because american press gave up their role as a check to power after 9/11, because of fear to look 'unpatriotic'"
14:47<Xaroth|Work>heh
14:47<Xaroth|Work>not untrue either
14:50<krinn>:P usa have all the clues of a dictatorship country
14:50<frosch123>dictator ai is just currently clearing a complete town area
14:51<krinn>not that size frosch123
14:51<frosch123>"that size" is just the area combined by three towns
14:52<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/dictatorai.png <- how is this any smaller?
14:53<frosch123>and it's not done yet, i paused the game while it was doing so
14:53<krinn>ah maybe i should recheck that part (as i don't even remember if i change it)
14:53<krinn>but the area upper left area seems way too far
14:56<krinn>nope only clean limit to town authority area
14:57<frosch123>maybe ottd even lmitied your ai with the clear-tile limit
14:57<frosch123>thus the area is not quite square
14:57<krinn>it's limit to town authority size
14:58<krinn>or do town authority that much big for a small city ?
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15:01<krinn>frosch123, in the samegame you still have the stations the ai was working on : la rochelle & lille town
15:11<frosch123>so, you mean it's rather related to the pathfinder and route construction?
15:11<frosch123>instead of the tree stuff?
15:11<krinn>certainly yes
15:11<krinn>the tree stuff is old stuff, it has never do such thing
15:11<krinn>maybe pathfinder yes
15:12<krinn>as the area is good if you consider a* nodes
15:13<@Rubidium>LordAro: I'm not doing that for each and every release, and it's not that important for trunk. It'll get there eventually
15:15<@Rubidium>LordAro: I'm not sure migrating to SDL 2.0 is going to happen "soon"
15:15<andythenorth>oops
15:15<krinn>frosch123, that must be that, i don't remember, but i was working on pathfinding, and the hypothesis looks ok with the area involve
15:15*andythenorth did a lego troll :(
15:16<@Rubidium>LordAro: mostly because then the generic binaries will fail basically everywhere
15:18<@Alberth>make brickland sprites?
15:18<@Rubidium>LordAro: it looks like you might want an SDLv2 video driver
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15:48<@Alberth>good night
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15:52<LordAro>Rubidium: so maybe in a couple of years time?
15:54<@planetmaker>LordAro, it still may make sense to add that. But keep using 1.2 as default
15:55<@planetmaker>configure and detection of available libraries could take care of that
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16:00<LordAro>planetmaker, but the generic binaries would have to use 1.2 (at least for now), right ?
16:01<@planetmaker>that's the matter of defaults, yes. Like you can have SDL installed on windows or osx as well. Yet by default you'll get the GDI or cocoa binaries
16:04<__ln__>is it the yearly SDL on OSX discussion again?
16:05<@planetmaker>no
16:07<LordAro>SDL 2.0 on everything discussion :)
16:07<+glx>I though SDL 2 was dead ;)
16:08<LordAro>indeed not: http://www.libsdl.org/
16:08<LordAro>new website too, for that matter
16:08<@planetmaker>released like... this week, glx
16:09<LordAro>a few hours ago, i believe, actually :)
16:10<@planetmaker>http://lists.libsdl.org/pipermail/sdl-libsdl.org/2013-August/089854.html tells me like 23h ago ;-)
16:11<@planetmaker>hm... PDT. whatever
16:13<LordAro>14 hours ago, then :p
16:13<LordAro>according to some probably overcomplicated googling
16:16<+glx>looking at http://wiki.libsdl.org/moin.fcg/MigrationGuide it seems to be a nice new version
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17:10<Eddi|zuHause>forum still slow :/
17:11<andythenorth>yup
17:13<frosch123>but does it improve the quality of the content?
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17:21<Eddi|zuHause>no idea, when i can't get to it :p
17:22<frosch123>does that in itself improve it? :p
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>doubtful
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17:25<Xaroth|Work>TWerkhoven: it appears all dates are off by 1 day, as provided by libottdadmin2
17:25<Xaroth|Work>so I think the gamedate_to_datetime is off
17:25<Xaroth|Work>(checking map info shows start date always at jan 2 as well)
17:28<Bad_Brett>seriously
17:28<Bad_Brett>i think i'm going insane
17:29<Bad_Brett>who came up with this "extra turning angles" stupidity? ;)
17:29<Wolf01>'night
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17:42<Eddi|zuHause>it was certainly not my idea
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>only parts of the concept were developed by me
17:49<Xaroth|Work>hm, dev.openttdcoop.org is also sluggish.. if it ever responds
17:49<frosch123>yup, but that is planned
17:51<Xaroth|Work>ah
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17:54<Bad_Brett>well, you were the one who introduced me to it
17:56<andythenorth>bye
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17:56<Bad_Brett>and now i'm trying to do one with 128 angles, which seemed to be a good idea until I started working on it
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17:56<Bad_Brett>night
17:56<Bad_Brett>andy
17:57<LordAro>i think he left :p
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17:57<Bad_Brett>so it seems
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17:58<Bad_Brett>hi LordAro :)
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17:58<LordAro>hi Bad_Brett :)
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17:58<Xaroth|Work>bye bye openttdcoop proxies
17:58<LordAro>oop, looks like the ottdcoop bouncer just broke
17:58<frosch123>the server is rebooting
17:58<frosch123>are you not in the important channels?
17:58<Xaroth|Work>reboot it HARDER
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17:59<LordAro>apparently not :L
17:59<LordAro>@seen yexo
17:59<@DorpsGek>LordAro: yexo was last seen in #openttd 36 weeks, 4 days, 8 hours, 42 minutes, and 34 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
17:59<LordAro>:(
17:59<LordAro>and with that, g'mnight all from me also
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17:59<LordAro>byes
17:59<Xaroth|Work>nn Aro
17:59<Bad_Brett>goodnight
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18:03<frosch123>night
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18:04<^Spike^>Xaroth|Work me broke it sort of :D
18:04<Xaroth|Work>TWerkhoven: in -theory- you can call self._rcvChat(irc, **data) .. it turns the data dict into keyword args (so _rcvChat(irc, action, destType, clientID, message, data) )
18:04<Xaroth|Work>^Spike^: figures :P
18:04<^Spike^>should be fixed now :)
18:05<Xaroth|Work>^Spike^: it is
18:05<^Spike^>atleast 1 advantage: I know what i broke :D
18:06<Xaroth|Work>:D
18:06<^Spike^>time for bed now as it works :D
18:07<Xaroth|Work>nn :)
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 14 00:00:58 2013