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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-08-14

---Logopened Wed Aug 14 00:00:58 2013
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01:28<maddy_>I have been thinking about the signals thing we talked about yesterday: I will forget the idea for scripts, but maybe do something similar to 'programmable signals', only not use that as a base but start fresh
01:30<maddy_>the supported features and specifically the GUI needs some thought to be sure
01:30<SamanthaD_>is this so that prios won't have silly track elements?
01:31<maddy_>yeah, at the simplest level, but I think I will support more stuff later on
01:32<SamanthaD_>what I would like are signals with penalties going through them for the pathfinder
01:32<maddy_>we have that already, passing a pbs signal from the backside?
01:32<SamanthaD_>(make trains prefer the "center lane" on multi-track tracks)
01:33<SamanthaD_>yeah, I knew about that
01:33<SamanthaD_>it's just that I have this track structure I've been playing with that involves alternating signals and cross-over tracks
01:33<maddy_>it actually works out pretty good for the penalty, because you can change the penalty value manually (in my game a value of 500 worked good for my purpose, instead of the default 1500)
01:34<maddy_>oh, right
01:34<SamanthaD_>I dunno... I might go for a "priority signal" but more than that might be feature cruft...
01:35<SamanthaD_>but that's just IMHO
01:36<maddy_>the most simple version I am thinking of, is that you could choose a set of signals which the programmable signal depends on, and then select a boolean operator for it (AND, OR) which is used to process the inputs
01:37<maddy_>it could be called a logic signal
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01:38<SamanthaD_>definitely need thouht about the GUI for that though...
01:38<maddy_>yeah, that's the hard part, how to do it well
01:39<SamanthaD_>maybe we could just go with a consistent implementation? All signals are now controlled via Lisp code!
01:41<maddy_>for more advanced features, I would really like to support signals which act based on the incoming train, so you could do splits based on cargo type, train length and the like
01:42<SamanthaD_> that's easy: just use a waypoint
01:50<maddy_>right, I didn't think of that, good point, so that functionality is not required
01:51<SamanthaD_>I use waypoints like that in almost every game!
01:52<V453000>not even waypoints are necessary to do that :)
01:53<maddy_>for train length? yeah I saw some logic constructs for it
01:54<V453000>no even without that
01:55<V453000>e.g. if both trains go somewhere a tiny little bit different, you can navigate them differently too, even though they would normally take the same path for most of the trip
01:55<maddy_>ok, how then?
01:56<V453000>we call it a pathfinder trap
01:56<V453000>you basically simulate that somewhere is a path, but the trains cant access it when they approach it
01:56<SamanthaD_>I usually use them in order to direct different trains to different platforms
01:57<SamanthaD_>like... on small stations I might have one platform for loading and one for unloading
01:57<SamanthaD_>or one for livestock and one for grain...
01:57<V453000>well yeah but that is the same as if you made 2 separate stations which is probably more convenient in general
01:58<maddy_>I read about the pathfinder trap, but didn't fully understand it, sounds interesting though
01:58<V453000> here is a little piece of information about it but not much
01:58<SamanthaD_>I've never heard about this trap thing...
01:58<SamanthaD_>sounds like a bug we need to squash ;)
02:01<SamanthaD_>I gotta run
02:01<SamanthaD_>you guys have fun, eh?
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02:03<maddy_>V453000: what do you think about my idea for 'logic signals' ?
02:07<V453000>unless it has gui visibility like cargo link it is completely worthless
02:07<V453000>you can do everything by now already
02:08<V453000>the signals would only do it invisibly - which if using a couple of signals would become absolutely chaotic if there is no graph thing to show which thing links to what, graphically
02:08<V453000>it does not technically add anything new with it either, but at least is somewhat usable
02:11<maddy_>yeah, the graph thing would really be a key I think, to show the links between the signals
02:11<V453000>yes, rails do that now, which is a lot better
02:11<V453000>but even with it I do not see a single reason for such feature
02:12<V453000>unless you can think of something which will open new possibilities
02:13<maddy_>the main reason is that you could do more 'clean' track layouts, without 'unused' priority tracks cluttering your track layouts, and of course not taking up space
02:14<V453000>which is bs
02:15<V453000>because laying down tracks is better in every regard
02:15<V453000>it is visible, better maintainable, more adjustable
02:15<dihedral>good morning
02:15<V453000>and mainly improvesp layers understanding of pre-signals
02:19<maddy_>well, I disagree with every regard, but it has lots of good things too, I agree
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02:39<maddy_>dihedral: morning
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03:47<dihedral>hello maddy_
03:48<maddy_>what do you think about my idea for logic signals, featuring only hard-coded choices, as opposed to should be more manageable
03:51<dihedral>give me some examples, i did not ready the backlog :-P
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03:53<maddy_>very simple: ability to use AND/OR/NOT boolean operators and link to other signals as inputs
03:55<dihedral>link only to the previous signal's as input
03:56<dihedral>i like the idea
03:58<maddy_>the key would be ability to show the links between the signals visually, so it's easy to see where the inputs come from
03:58<dihedral>if you work with the pre signals, then you already have your OR type
03:59<dihedral>and you already have the state forwarding / receiving
04:01<maddy_>I will use the existing patch for programmable signals as a guide, but I will probably start fresh
04:03<dihedral>i would rather suggest using the code for the existing pre signal types
04:03<dihedral>esp block entry signal and combo signal (see
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04:44<@peter1138>getting sidetracked there i see
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05:01<Wolf01>hi ho
05:05<LordAro>hi Wolf01
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05:39<dihedral>peter1138, why?
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05:48<Eddi|zuHause>maddy_: the main problem with "signals as inputs" is that it won't work with path signals, there you would need (reservation of) arbitrary tile as input
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>hm... so WHY THE HELL does my code not work?
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>i get some stuff from the database, update it, and then the update is not there when i read it again :/
06:00<dihedral>master / slave database setup?
06:00<dihedral>update fails
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>mismatch between editor's codepage and the #encoding-line
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, of course u"ä" does not equal u"ä"
06:08<maddy_>Eddi|zuHause: yes, it would probably not work with path signals, my initial implementation would support only block signals I think
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>maddy_: that's kind of the problem with all these patches. they try to cater some niche which fails to adress the main issue...
06:11<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, what's the main issue? :-)
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>whatever involves path signals, which are the most common signals of all :)
06:12<@planetmaker>(IMHO for programmable signals it's a sane UI beyond textual display, visual feedback on the map)
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>like... "signals on bridges" (WTF!)
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06:13<maddy_>well I have to start somewhere, who knows maybe it can be improved later
06:14<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, "most common signals of all" < not on V453000's networks :D
06:15<maddy_>planetmaker: any ideas for the UI / visual display on map are welcome btw
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>well that is no surprise that V453000 does the exact opposite of what i would do :p
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06:30<Eddi|zuHause>maddy_: concerning "simple" rules: what i always missed was something like "keep this signal red for 10 days, then allow it to go green for 30 days [repeat]"
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06:38<LordAro>oh hey, the forums are fast again
06:39<maddy_>Eddi|zuHause: good idea
06:40<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, wtf? what is that for??
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>maddy_: a method to synchronize the signals like vehicle timetables would help there :)
06:40<dihedral>you have mad ideas Eddi
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: mixed cargo/passenger line won't allow cargo trains to enter the line short before a passenger train is scheduled
06:41<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, what will happen if you computer denotes the suffix of your nick, and for some odd reason you need to take your home computer to work?
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: we'll figure that out when it happens :p
06:42<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, you can simply solve that by using a 'priority' type setup and making cargo trains a tile longer than passenger trains :-P
06:42<dihedral>then you can loop a singal state forward to the passengar lane so that when a cargo train comes the passenger lane is always red :-P
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: can't put "priorities" on path signals
06:43<dihedral>not on the signals
06:43<dihedral>build it with tracks
06:43<dihedral>oh - path signals ...
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: not enough space
06:43<dihedral>that's your problem :-D
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i often have a different set of problems and solutions than openttdcoop :p
06:44<V453000>nobody says you need to have path signals everywhere :)
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: but they do help when space is an issue :)
06:46<V453000>if you need signal A to do whatever (e.g. priority), you dont need or want path signal there anyway
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: if you can put the "priority" and "load balancer" stuff into the programmable part, instead of extra tracks, there is no reason not to use path signals
06:47<V453000>how is it related to path signals at all
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>it is not
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>it shoudl just work with them, or i won't use the patch
06:48<V453000>if that worked, it would add something new indeed
06:48<V453000>otherwise it is worthless as I said
06:51<V453000>I wouldnt say that path signals are simple at all though
06:51<V453000>every beginner has easier time understanding what is a signal block than where are safe waiting post
06:52<dihedral>i think and|or|not signals for pre signal type could be interesting
06:52<dihedral>where OR already exists
06:53<@peter1138>signal blocks, yes, pre-signals, no
06:53<@peter1138>but then true, most people don't give a fuck about safe waiting points and use path signals as block signal replacements
06:54<V453000>I did not say pre-signals on purpose :)
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>every beginner doesn't understand signals at all :p
06:54<V453000>well then, why are path signals (especially the 2way ones) default? :d
06:54<V453000>if basic block signals are most intuitive to new players
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>that was an unproven statement by you
06:55<V453000>yes I only see and teach players, has no value
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>well, then implement a feature that hides presignals from the signal gui, for beginners
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>then the block signal could be default, with path signals as an option
06:58<V453000>how does that make any sense
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>for when they learned what ha signal is
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>because nobody(tm) needs presignals :)
06:58<V453000>only retarded people dont
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>if it were up to me, i would have ripped them out of the game and every tutorial out there
06:59<V453000>very sensible
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>you could re-implement their functionality with programmable signals
07:01<V453000>simple logic of pre-signals does not kill the fun, retarded programming of signals would.
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>then you need the ability to define "signal templates"
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>to easily construct junctions
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>without defining each signal individually
07:02<V453000>which would end up as pre-signals ... difference is?
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>difference is... a) more flexibility, b) less old clutter
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07:04<V453000>still, where would you save such a template
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07:04<Eddi|zuHause>in the config file, next to newgrf presets
07:04<V453000>so everybody would need to re-define pre-signals?
07:04<V453000>that doesnt make sense
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>or where you store your copy-paste junctions
07:05<V453000>anybody uses copypaste?
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>anybody uses presignals?
07:06<V453000>most people do
07:07<V453000>go visit actual servers, not forums filled with idiots who talk more than play
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>anybody uses servers?
07:08<V453000>oh, ok then
07:12<maddy_>does there have to be a one-solution-fits-all type thing though? like say path vs block signals: arguably you could do some things with either type, depending on the players preferences
07:14<V453000>I think the only thing to add could be a PBS signal which is red when presignals ahead are red
07:14<V453000>you could do anything with that too
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07:37<dihedral>peter1138, what's wrong with using the existing pre-signal setup and extending that? they already have forwarding and receiving previous signals state, it's easy to add and change their reaction based on forwarded states
07:40<@peter1138>dihedral, i wasn't responding to you :)
07:41<V453000>there isnt any problem with it, that is their problem :)
07:48<maddy_>I'll see what I can do, if anything, being so beginner at openttd even as a player, not to mention as a coder
07:50<@planetmaker>coding a game is playing the meta-game ;-)
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>sooo... UI concept: the signal GUI is changed, to allow a "insert new signal type here" button. then a "programmable signals" gui opens up, you can select an appearance of the signal out of the current (8?) signal type graphics, a button whether it acts as a block or path signal, and a behaviour setup where instead of "listen to signal at <X>" you enter "listen to {all|nearest} signal of type <X>" ["... and make <decision"] which
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>automatically gets filled in when placing the signal/changing the junction
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>player can manually override the selected signal(s) after the signal is placed, with the "regular" programmable signal GUI
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>maybe newgrf signals can provide more than 8 signal graphics
07:57<@peter1138>what was wrong with the already implemented programmable signals anyway?
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>never tried it
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>likely "doesn'T work with path signals" :p
07:57<maddy_>peter1138: nothing as such, I will plan to use it as a guide, but I like to write stuff from the scratch, to learn the openttd code better
07:58<@peter1138>there's more to signal state than checking the state of other signals
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>the main thing to learn from that patch is probably "how and where was this stuff stored?"
07:58<@peter1138>whether it's possible to "hold this slow train a second while that faster train goes through" sanely is another matter :D
07:59<@peter1138>of course, that's "worthless" to players like V453000, but not to everyone
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i don't think the signal should be able to detect the type of train that is waiting
07:59<@peter1138>why not?
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>performance? complexity?
07:59<@peter1138>think of it as an automated man in a signal box or control centre
08:00<@peter1138>of course it's not the signal doing the decision really, but even so
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>a turk signal! :p
08:00<@peter1138>pfft performance pfft complexity
08:00<maddy_>peter1138: someone suggested that different trains could be already directed to specific tracks by using waypoints, which to some degree defeats the purpose of detecting any info about the incoming train
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the other way around would be "enough", impose a pathfinder penalty depending on which train requested a path
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>then the signal does not have to actively check for a train waiting
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>and it can influence trains from further away already
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>so you can guide slow trains towards the "slow trains wait here" signal
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>and let the fast train pass on the "fast lane"
08:11<dihedral><maddy_> I'll see what I can do, if anything, being so beginner at openttd even as a player, not to mention as a coder <- i have not played in a very long time myself
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08:13<maddy_>dihedral: right, I have played on and off for years, with long breaks in between but I always return to this great game
08:15<@planetmaker>dihedral, bad bad bad ;-)
08:15<@planetmaker>I guess you stopped playing when a certain nightly server ceased to run :-P
08:16<V453000>certain :)
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08:38<maddy_>krinn: hi
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09:00<__ln__>does anyone have an idea what would be a good way to compress something like 15..30 bytes of data?
09:04<__ln__>a what?
09:05<Wolf01>but might not be your case
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>for compressing it always matters WHAT kind of data
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>there is no algorithm that can compress every stream of 30 bytes by 1 bit
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>because there is one less bitstream of 1 to 8*30-1 bits than bitstreams of 8*30 bits.
09:10<__ln__>i am well aware of the inherent limitations
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>it's like the game where there's one less chairs than players
09:11<Wolf01>you could turn up the chairs and let 4 people sit for each chair... ehm
09:11<__ln__>i don't expect to compress any given input by even 1 bit, but i'm looking into the possibility of compressing some inputs by more than insignificant amount of bits.
09:11<Wolf01>you could try to apply a Huffmann algorythm
09:12<krinn>with such few bits, any compression system will higher the result on failure
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09:13<__ln__>krinn: indeed, that's why probably the very first bit should indicate whether the data is compressed at all.
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09:14<Eddi|zuHause>well there are only a handful of generic compression algorithms, so when you don't give us any details about the structure of the data, just pick one of those
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>huffman code is good start, or an arithmetic code
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>or just pipe it through gzip
09:16<__ln__>i know many algorithms or at least their practical implementations will generate so much headers and stuff that for very small inputs the compressed size will basically be larger than the source.
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes. so what is the actual usecase where shaving a few bits off a 30 byte stream would outweigh the effort and latency of compressing?
09:18<krinn>and generally for stream people prefer having more bits than less :)
09:19<__ln__>the use case is transferring a few dozen bytes of binary data on the phone, one person reading it out loud, and the other one writing it down on the other end.
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09:19<Wolf01>use a modem
09:20<Wolf01>it works better than havind 2 people doing that :P
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>acoustic coupling :p
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>the phone system is digital nowadays, you know :p
09:21<__ln__>Wolf01: perhaps, but if one person doesn't have a modem, it doesn't work very well.
09:21<__ln__>Wolf01: besides, i challenge you to find me a price for an acoustic modem that you can use with a cell phone :)
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: whatever you're trying to do, you should probably rethink your approach :p
09:22<krinn>__ln__ i think the best method would be compressing the whole message and then send the compress message 30/30bytes
09:22<Wolf01>the cellphone already has a modem
09:22<__ln__>not necessarily, and certainly not an acoustic one
09:22<Wolf01>or you won't be able to talk to another person
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>the cellphone has also SMS which can transfer 30 bytes easily :p
09:23<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: i don't trust that people can write 30 characters of arbitrary A-Z0-9 without typos :/
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: add an error code :)
09:24<__ln__>however, generating a QR code would be a possibility, and reading it with the phone's camera if it has one.
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09:26<krinn>you may count 1 and 0 and send the value as 3 (3 bit set to 1) -4 (4 bits set to 0).... if you have a good range of pattern of 0|1 you get good result and an easy system for the other guy to uncode it
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09:28<__ln__>Wolf01: good url
09:28<@peter1138>bit-wise RLE is probably going to use more bits representing the counters than the data
09:28<krinn>in the worst case you will have to said it 240 times :)
09:28<Wolf01>or the run-length compression, but works well only if you have multiple consecutive 0 or 1, like 3-0 and 2-1, 2-0, 2-1 => 000110011
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09:30<Wolf01>and since you might need to do that in binary, you'll end up with more bits than the original :P
09:31<Wolf01>this remembers an old game I found
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09:32<__ln__>... and after that you learned the number 3 in school?
09:33<@planetmaker>hehe, nice sequence, Wolf01 :-)
09:33<@planetmaker>reminds me of "An eternal golden braid" by Hofstadter
09:34<LordAro>nice, Wolf01 :)
09:34<@planetmaker>slow :-P
09:34<LordAro>ah, right
09:35<Wolf01>I started madness again?
09:35*LordAro wonders how easy it would be to script...
09:35<@planetmaker>did it ever cease to exist, Wolf01 ? ;-)
09:35<V453000>is that numbers of beers per round?
09:35<V453000>if not, it is a bad game
09:39<LordAro>probability of a mistake... increasing...
09:39<@planetmaker>don't they increase?
09:40<@planetmaker>anyway, I'm sure we wrote a programme for that sequence in school like 20-odd years ago or so :-P
09:40<Wolf01>me too
09:41<LordAro>can't say i have
09:41<Wolf01>I think I did it in Q-Basic or so
09:41*LordAro goes away and tries
09:41<@planetmaker>either Pascal or Prolog. Dunno anymore :-)
09:42<V453000>pascal was awesome
09:43<TWerkhoven>oooh, pascal
09:44<krinn>tooked me 4 years to know it was name after the mathematician :P
09:45<V453000>no it is named after the pressure units
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09:54<Wolf01>there's an error
09:54<maddy_>UK english is the default language?
09:55<Wolf01>4 ones can't exists
09:55<LordAro>wait, crap
09:56<LordAro>i think i managed to write a '1' instead of a '2' :L
09:57<krinn>anyone have a look at the ai railpf ? it looks totally buggy
09:57<Wolf01>and this time the error is at the very beginning :P
09:58<LordAro>ah, screw it
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09:58*LordAro writes the program
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: it's probably Zuu's fault :p
09:59<krinn>seriously, to a point i'm thinking it's me that is wrong
09:59<Wolf01>lol, 312131 -> 11111111
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm, actually i don't think i've seen this sequence before...
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10:02<LordAro>nobody tell him, let him work it out >:)
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10:14<krinn>lol Eddi|zuHause must use woobly cars there
10:14<Wolf01>the tardis?
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>click on the double arrow :)
10:15<krinn>:) tardis
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: yeah, i never understood the wobbly lines on english roads...
10:16<krinn>could have done it on a pic with less trash
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>the pic isn't the point...
10:19<krinn>i enter it already
10:20<dihedral><planetmaker> I guess you stopped playing when a certain nightly server ceased to run :-P <- actually long before that :-D
10:21<@peter1138>double arrow?
10:22<krinn>there's a double >> to move
10:23<krinn>on your screen :)
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>allegedly it doesn't work if you use the "new" interface to google maps
10:24<@peter1138>"Get the new Google Maps. Try it now" < I assume I'm not using the "new" interface
10:25<Wolf01>I can't see a >> also in the classic interface
10:26<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, told you to avoid joking with people using lynx
10:28<@peter1138>works in iceweasel
10:28<@peter1138>but not chromium
10:28<@peter1138>still using dodgy browser detection code :S
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10:35<maddy_>what's the difference of DoCommand and DoCommandP?
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>maddy_: one is sent over the network for synchronisation and the other assumes that it's already run synchronously on every client
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>so the initial user action must be synchronised, but all follow-up things deeper down the chain don't have to be
10:38<@peter1138>or rather, they are already running on all systems
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11:12<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 832.7*30065
11:12<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 25035125.5
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11:22<LordAro>planetmaker, Wolf01, etc: :)
11:23<LordAro>gets very long very quickly :)
11:27<dihedral>Ammler ->
11:35<LordAro>interesting, i seem to have generated a 100 line, 50MB file :)
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11:35<LordAro>gedit is having trouble opening it
11:36<Wolf01>last time I froze my computer after ~200 lines
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>"this was an april's fools joke from 2009"
11:38<maddy_>gedit doesn't seem very efficient with large files, I've noticed it too
11:38<LordAro>hmm, geany didn't do much better
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>with the "overabundance of RAM", programs have lost the ability to handle partial files
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember cursing a lot the last time i searched for a hex editor that can open a whole partition
11:41<LordAro>no wait, geany handled it fine
11:41<LordAro>the file wasn't formatted correctly
11:42<Wolf01>and developers lost the ability to write programs which could run in a TI-83 calculator, despite doing the same work
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>it could have been python, and much shorter and easier to run...
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>"for (i = it; i < str.length() && str[it] == str[i]; i++);" <-- what horrible code style is this
11:45<LordAro>i did have it on separate lines, but i decided to make it smaller :L
11:45<TinoDidriksen>For shame. Should be ++i instead.
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>smaller != more elegant
11:46<TinoDidriksen>Readability is much more important than fewer lines.
11:46<LordAro>perhaps :p
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12:15<Eddi|zuHause>"Microsoft revives the 'Ping of Death' for IPv6"
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>ohh what fun we had with those in the 90s :p
12:17<MNIM>It's not april first, is it?
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>no, latest patchday :)
12:18<@peter1138>best not to apply it just yet thme
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12:28<MNIM>friggen patches.
12:29<MNIM>you'd think microsoft would know people have better things to do than updating every time they start up their PC.
12:29<MNIM>I still don't get why they can't just make updates download and install during runtime, like a real OS.
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>they do know that, hence why they started shipping out patches only once a month
12:36<MNIM>So now I have a doubly outdated OS, and every once in a while I have to wait an hour instead of ten minutes to update?
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12:39<dumbdumbgj>Are you looking for a big smelly elephant with green balls? come to WWW.CENTEX.NET - WE also have black tranny and mushroom sauce... thats WWW.CENTEX.NET
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12:42<^Spike^>ehm..... ok......
12:46*andythenorth is bored bored
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12:48<maddy_>ok I got as far as getting my patch started: added a new signal type and added it to signal gui
12:51<Pinkbeast>Aren't there a limited number of bits for signal types in the map array?
12:53<maddy_>probably, but I only added one new type (7 now, instead of 6 previously)
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12:54<Pinkbeast>maddy_: Ah, very well.
12:57<Xaroth|Work>wth @ that spam
13:01<V453000>LOL that is awesome :D
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13:10<andythenorth>so I have a request for bigger layouts for FIRS plantation-type industries
13:10*andythenorth wonders how big?
13:11<andythenorth>current biggest is 5x5
13:11<andythenorth>nice idea
13:11*andythenorth considers it
13:11<Xaroth|Work>that's HUGE :o
13:12<Xaroth|Work>could be fun though
13:12<andythenorth>64x64, no gaps :P
13:12<andythenorth>you'd have to manually build it in scenarios :P
13:13<Xaroth|Work>openttdcoop could have a ball with a few of those, trying to make the most efficient station evar :P
13:14<V453000>nobody said it would produce proportionally as much :P
13:14<andythenorth>FIRS compiles so slow
13:14<andythenorth>it inhibits me working on it :P
13:21<andythenorth>faster faster faster :(
13:22<V453000>how long does it take?
13:22<V453000>nuts takes around 15 minutes I think
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13:22<V453000>maybe 10
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13:24<andythenorth>FIRS is 3 mins
13:26<V453000>... :D
13:27<dihedral>wow - joan takes 1min 44sec (last build), grapes 26 secs, berries (all optional plugins) 31 secs
13:28<dihedral>using a single core
13:29<Xaroth|Work>that's java for you
13:29<andythenorth>FISH takes 5s
13:29<andythenorth>nml industry spritelayouts scale horribly afaict
13:30<Xaroth|Work>libottdadmin2 forced recompile takes.. <1s :P
13:30<dihedral>Xaroth, at least i will not have to tell "everybody" how to make the environment in order to run it
13:30<dihedral>compared to ap+
13:31<Xaroth|Work>make the environment?
13:31<dihedral>setup the environment
13:31<dihedral>ap+ needed expect, tcl expect bindings and what not
13:31<Xaroth|Work>ah, yes
13:32<Xaroth|Work>that.. sucked :P
13:32<dihedral>and it would only run on linux :-)
13:32<Xaroth|Work>now you just have to explain them how to install java :P
13:33<dihedral>and say java -jar <grapes.jar> <configfile>
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13:43<andythenorth>these big layouts look stupid
13:44<andythenorth>lo frosch123
13:44<dihedral>andythenorth, i don't think they look stupid
13:45<andythenorth>maybe it just needs to balance better
13:45<andythenorth>seems very repetitive to me
13:45<andythenorth>I guess plantations are repetitive :)
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25722 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-08-14 17:46:41 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 48 changes by UseYourIllusion, Yoursnotmine
13:46<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 2 changes by Stabilitronas
13:46<@DorpsGek>swedish - 17 changes by Joel_A
13:46<@DorpsGek>tamil - 12 changes by aswn
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13:48<@peter1138>so anyone using btrfs?
13:48<@peter1138>seems to be capable of migrating from ext3/4 to btrfs without a needing a backup...
13:49<andythenorth>is it a new british trains newgrf?
13:49<@peter1138>what's a newgrf?
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13:54<andythenorth>is this game done yet?
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14:08<andythenorth>lo planetmaker
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14:19<dihedral>peter1138, good luck
14:19<dihedral>iirc btrfs is still beta
14:23<andythenorth>anyone want to draw cargo icons?
14:23<andythenorth>how wrong can it go?
14:23<andythenorth>need coffee and suchlike
14:24<krinn>btrfs is flaw by design, and such thing for a fs, should just be its dead
14:24<maddy_>what kind of datatype could I use for something dictionary/hashmap type thing, where I have a key and a corresponding value?
14:24<@planetmaker>andythenorth, did you look at NUTS for coffee icons?
14:25<andythenorth>maybe V453000 will draw me some icons?
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14:25<@planetmaker>I *think* it has already coffee support. maybe I err
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>maddy_: one of the standard types?
14:25<V453000>I am about to draw coffee this or next week actually
14:25<maddy_>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, where/what are they?
14:25<V453000>will be some box-ish things on flatbeds, so could make those as icons
14:25<krinn>lol maddy_ an AIList
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>how should i know... i don't write c++ :p
14:26<andythenorth>V453000 need Copper, Sugar, Diamonds, Rubber, Coffee
14:26<andythenorth>but too lazy too draw them :)
14:27<andythenorth>I spose copper is just iron ore, but pink :P
14:27<V453000>diamonds are on flatbeds already, you could grab those
14:27<V453000>rest I dont have :)
14:27<andythenorth>sugar is white grain
14:27<V453000>maybe sugar/copper/rubber can be grabbed from hoppers
14:27<andythenorth>coffee comes in a cup? :P
14:27<V453000>coffee will be in boxes on flatbeds
14:27<V453000>rubber is in hoppers
14:27<krinn>andythenorth, i'm not sure oracle won't sue you, they are kinda mad
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>coffee should be bulk
14:28<V453000>go see nuts/gfx and look for "hopper" files
14:29<andythenorth>maybe too big for icons :)
14:29<andythenorth>they are 10x10 px
14:29<V453000>maglevhopper might be k
14:30<krinn>at that size andythenorth i'm afraid even a cow looks like copper
14:30<V453000>IZ A LIE
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>you'd be amazed what some people can do with a mere hundred pixels
14:31<krinn>it's not what people can do, it's what people can see :)
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14:31<Eddi|zuHause>people can see a LOT of things :)
14:33<krinn>well, i can nearly see nothing on the cargo png, the blue background doesn't help too, but when zooming you can see he manage to really do things
14:34<krinn>lmao the pax is one dude & a woman, but at normal size... it's like waste
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14:50<dihedral>night gents
14:50<krinn>going too, night
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15:18<andythenorth>FIRS compile
15:18<andythenorth>time to make tea
15:23<andythenorth>planetmaker: there was a param 'test_industry' for FIRS
15:23<andythenorth>for fast dev compiles
15:23<andythenorth>not sure it works with new makefile? :)
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15:24<andythenorth>or I've forgotten how to use it
15:25<andythenorth>case sensitive
15:26<Bad_Brett>what the hell?
15:26<Bad_Brett>C:\Program\OpenTTD\data>nmlc --grf TrainTest.grf TrainTest.nml
15:26<Bad_Brett>nmlc ERROR: nmlc: An internal error has occurred:
15:26<Bad_Brett>nmlc-version: 0.3.0.r2063:9e5e21dc5219
15:26<Bad_Brett>Error: (IOError) "cannot identify image file".
15:26<Bad_Brett>Command: ['nmlc', '--grf', 'TrainTest.grf', 'TrainTest.nml']
15:26<Bad_Brett>Location: File "C:\Python27\lib\site-packages\PIL\", line 1980, in open
15:27<andythenorth>looks like a PIL error :)
15:27<Bad_Brett>it seems that this error should occur if you try to use pcx files - which I don't do
15:27<@planetmaker>pcx files should work, though
15:27<@planetmaker>afaik. Unless pil doesn't support them ;-)
15:28<Xaroth|Work>depends on how PIL is compiled
15:29<Xaroth|Work>it supports it if you have the system libraries for it
15:29<Bad_Brett>the strange thing is that it worked a few hours ago
15:29<Bad_Brett>maybe some image file has been corrupted
15:29<Bad_Brett>in the cache maybe?
15:30<Xaroth|Work>can you try removing PIL
15:30<Xaroth|Work>then installing Pillow
15:30<Xaroth|Work>(through pip works best)
15:31<Bad_Brett>i'll try that if clearing the cache won't do the trick
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15:32<@planetmaker>Xaroth, I first indeed would guess a corrupted image file
15:33<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: yeh, most likely
15:34<Xaroth|Work>but it could also be some obscure issue with PIL that Pillow has solved
15:34<Bad_Brett>since i could compile the same file earlier today, it seems doesn't seem very likely though
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15:35<@planetmaker>Xaroth, very unlikely... and... pillow with nmlc is supported... but I can't say that it's well tested
15:35<Xaroth|Work>Pillow is backwards compatible with PIL
15:36<@planetmaker>in principle
15:36<Xaroth|Work>and PIL should be counted as deprecated tbh
15:37<@planetmaker> is the other side of the medal ;-)
15:37<Bad_Brett>so the search begins... 8192 png's
15:37<@planetmaker>the version which caused the report is the pillow support ;-)
15:38<Bad_Brett>perhaps it's quicker to create fresh copies :)
15:38<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, just look for create / modification time?
15:38<@planetmaker>since it last worked
15:38<Bad_Brett>that may indeed do the trick
15:39<Xaroth|Work>how is that the other side of the coin, pm?
15:40<@planetmaker>(slightly) different call paths
15:41<@planetmaker>those are different. changing that broke (some) PIL installs
15:41<Xaroth|Work>easy_install can cock up sometimes, yes
15:42<andythenorth>we should just write a buildout for whole thing :P
15:42<andythenorth>but buildout is a strange beast
15:43<Xaroth|Work>pip + requirements.txt should often be enough
15:44<andythenorth>I would (and do) virtualenv in that case :)
15:45<wakou2>Might be interesting for some of you...
15:46<Xaroth|Work>andythenorth: if pip works and you have an up-to-date requirements.txt , setting it up in venv should be a walk in the park
15:46<andythenorth>I could be convinced easily :)
15:46<andythenorth>I have no experience with pip and requirements.txt
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15:46<Xaroth|Work>pip is the better variant of easy_install
15:47<andythenorth>I have experienced multiple other python packaging systems - and their problems
15:47<andythenorth>currently installing nml is a faff
15:47<andythenorth>it took me several days of attempts the first time
15:47<Xaroth|Work>and requirements.txt is just a text file with 1 package (plus optional version specifier) per line
15:48<@planetmaker>preferred method: hg checkout and put that in the path :D
15:48<Xaroth|Work>so you can tell pip to install all requirements in 1 go
15:49<andythenorth>add it to nml? ;)
15:49<Xaroth|Work>and, at the same time, your file can read requirements.txt to get the proper values for setuptools/distutils
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15:50<andythenorth>current faff
15:50<andythenorth>which has a number of issues
15:51<@planetmaker>I think anyone is welcome to submit patch(es) to improve the situation
15:52<@planetmaker>tbh, I didn't yet care much about the installation issue(s)
15:52<andythenorth>I am trying to remember the actual issues I had, rather than the issues caused by bad / conflicting advice on irc :)
15:52<andythenorth>both happened :P
15:54<andythenorth>problems I recall
15:54<andythenorth>- there is a fair chance that user has a broken setuptools :P
15:54<andythenorth>- some versions of PIL are just borked and don't install
15:54<andythenorth>(PIL is known bad, hence pillow)
15:55<andythenorth>- if you are on OS X, all bets are off
15:55*andythenorth is on OS X
15:55<Xaroth|Work>OSX is known to fuck packages up
15:55<Bad_Brett>when everything else fails: restart your computer :)
15:55<Xaroth|Work>python, perl, heck they even managed to mess up PHP PEAR :|
15:55<andythenorth>if you are given advice about screwing with your path for specific python packages, this is PROBABLY wrong
15:55<andythenorth>- get a clean version of python 2.6 or 2.7
15:56<andythenorth>- never get python from macports
15:56<andythenorth>- never get anything from macports
15:56<@planetmaker>well... works for me :D
15:56-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
15:56<andythenorth>- installing python modules system wide is a cluster fuck if you work on multiple projects
15:56<Xaroth|Work>use virtualenv :)
15:56<andythenorth>- always use a virtualenv, even if people tell you not to
15:57<Xaroth|Work>unless you're extremely stubborn, then good luck fixing things yourself if you cock up :P
15:57<andythenorth>what I learned (for OS X)
15:57<andythenorth>- use buildout.python to get all the pythons
15:57<@planetmaker>anyway... back to creating new DevZone :D
15:57<andythenorth>- alias the pythons correctly
15:58<andythenorth>- create a virtual env for your newgrf projects
15:58<andythenorth>- install the nmlc deps in the virtualenv
15:58<andythenorth>- pray that setuptools doesn't screw you
15:58<andythenorth>- pray that PIL doesn't screw you
15:58<andythenorth>- profit! :)
15:58<andythenorth>and then all is well
15:59<andythenorth>planetmaker: *new* DevZone? o_O
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16:19<andythenorth>this do for a trading post?
16:19<andythenorth>I'm not very inspired
16:20<Bad_Brett>looks awesome
16:20<gynter>I like it.
16:20<gynter>Can you add a crane maybe?
16:21<andythenorth>I removed the cranes
16:21<Xaroth|Work>should add tiles or something so people who want can expand it a tad (like the diagonal shores above and below it)
16:21<andythenorth>just use stations
16:21<andythenorth>or someone made FIRS object tiles I think
16:23<Wolf01>1113122113121113222123211211222123211231131122211211131221131112311332211213211321322113311211131112132123222113111221131221 LordAro, could you check this please?
16:24<LordAro>Wolf01, which iteration?
16:25<Wolf01>I was explaining this to a friend, and I let my hands continue...
16:25<LordAro>11131221131211131231121113112221121321132132211331222113112211 <-- that's 14 :L
16:26<LordAro>311311222113111231131112132112311321322112111312211312111322212311322113212221 <-- that's 15
16:26<LordAro>132113213221133112132113311211131221121321131211132221123113112221131112311332111213211322211312113211 <-- 16
16:26<Wolf01>then is the 17th
16:27<Wolf01>or I missed some numbers
16:27<Wolf01>yes, I did
16:28<LordAro>11131221131211132221232112111312212321123113112221121113122113111231133221121321132132211331121321231231121113122113322113111221131221 <-- 17
16:28<LordAro>looks close :)
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16:38<andythenorth>does anyone want a truck set?
16:38<andythenorth>I keep _nearly_ starting one
16:39<Bad_Brett>i want one
16:39<andythenorth>what does it do?
16:40<Bad_Brett>something that hasn't been done before?
16:41<Xaroth|Work>A space one would be cool as well
16:44<andythenorth>space trucks!
16:44<Bad_Brett>i must say, that Mars One project is quite exciting
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16:46<Bad_Brett>quite awesome
16:47<andythenorth>I like imagination for made up vehicles :)
16:47<andythenorth>need V453000 for that
16:50<andythenorth>I feel like this trading post should have cobblestone dock
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16:50<andythenorth>but then the in-game dock won't match :)
16:51<Bad_Brett>unless you add a matching dock... but that's not possible at the moment, right?
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16:52<Bad_Brett>at least not with nml
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16:54<andythenorth>ach, maybe I try that
16:55<Bad_Brett>it looks quite good if you ask me
16:56<andythenorth>I'm using it
16:56<andythenorth>it needs another building or something
16:56<andythenorth>but it will do for now
16:56<andythenorth>at least there are no longer 4 'port' industries all look same
16:57<Bad_Brett>yeah that's good
16:59<Bad_Brett>ugh... using extra turning angles is my stupidest idea so far... i'm about to go insane
17:00<andythenorth>tmwftlb :)
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17:01<Bad_Brett>you can say that again
17:01<Xaroth|Work>too much something for too little something
17:01<Bad_Brett>yeah i know
17:03<Bad_Brett>i would like to be able to use longer vehicles, and i hate when they split on the middle
17:04<Bad_Brett>i think i have a solid approach, however, the code is getting so complex that it drives me insane :)
17:05<andythenorth>sometimes you're fighting the game
17:05<andythenorth>it is what it is :)
17:05<andythenorth>don't let me discourage you though
17:07<Bad_Brett>everything is eddi's fault... it was him who showed me CETS
17:08<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, it's important to have goals. But also important to get things done. In smaller steps than re-inventing the world :-)
17:08<@planetmaker>(even when that can be your goal)
17:09<Bad_Brett>yeah i know... however, sometimes doing the right preperations may save time in the end
17:10<andythenorth>I need some idea for Bulk Terminal port
17:11<andythenorth>problem is, cargos might change per economy
17:11<@Rubidium>that's no problem in a stuff economy
17:11<andythenorth>good point
17:11<andythenorth>I should make a stuff economy easter egg
17:12<@planetmaker>^^ :-)
17:12<@planetmaker>is there two kind of stuff or only one?
17:13<andythenorth>red, green and blue stuff
17:13<andythenorth>this trading post is no good :(
17:13*andythenorth has looked at it again
17:13<andythenorth>the life of a newgrf author is hard :P
17:14<Bad_Brett>you tell me
17:14<Bad_Brett>by the way, how was the tt-forums get-together?
17:15*andythenorth might have to draw something, instead of copy+paste existing sprites :/
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17:20<andythenorth>17k downloads of FISH 2 alpha :(
17:20<andythenorth>and it's not good
17:22<Xaroth|Work>right, cleaned up ... stripped out most of it, now to re-write it O_O
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17:33<Bad_Brett>would someone be interested in an accordion grf?
17:40<LordAro>that looks... bad
17:40<@planetmaker>good night
17:40<LordAro>night planetmaker
17:40<Xaroth|Work>nn pm
17:41<andythenorth>bulk terminal?
17:42<Bad_Brett>very nice indeed
17:43<andythenorth>it will do for now, as an idea
17:43*andythenorth bed
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17:46<Bad_Brett>LordAro, what's the status on your AI?
17:46<LordAro>umm, working, i think
17:46<LordAro>i haven't looked at it in about 2 years :/
17:48<Bad_Brett>is it only for road vehicles?
17:52<LordAro>buses only
17:53<Bad_Brett>ah ok
17:53<Bad_Brett>i remember using it a lot a few years ago
17:54<LordAro>yayz :)
17:55<LordAro>tbh, now that i understand a bit (quite a lot) more about coding, i'd probably scrap the whole thing and start again :L
18:00<Bad_Brett>one thing i remember last time i tried the different AI's, was that high running costs seemed to drive them out of business quickly... the ones that could handle trains never seemed to survive if I used the NARS grf
18:02<Bad_Brett>my fear is that no AI will be able to handle the gold rush scenario either :(
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18:56<Wolf01>'night all
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19:20<wakou2>Hi folks what grfs should I use if I want to start date at (say) 1900?
19:23<krinn>wakou2: if it's to get vehicle, egrvts gave u horses
19:24<wakou2>krinn: TY and early trains?
19:25<krinn>wakou2, i don't know, trains appears ~ 1940 i think
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19:27<V453000>most newgrf train sets start in 1920
19:27<V453000>1920 could be UKRS2 or NARS I guess
19:27<V453000>other train sets arent even noteworthy
19:28<krinn>V453000, trying jedi tricks on his mind ?
19:29<V453000>what jedi tricks :d
19:29<krinn>"this is not the newGRF you are seeking"
19:29<V453000>2cc set is bulltrash, everybody knows that
19:30<krinn>so if so many knows it, maybe it's worth mention it no?
19:30<V453000>definitely not
19:32<V453000>im not sure if a newGRF being known as useless means it is noteworthy
19:33<wakou2>& just getting zbase update from online content... 273Mb!! Is that right??
19:33<krinn>"crappy state" is a personal thing, while popular, even bad for some or many, it should have something worth if everyone pick it up
19:33<krinn>wakou2, yes, big file
19:33<wakou2>Ok... (drums fingers) :)
19:34<V453000>well since everyone picks up everything (to at least try it), I do not see how your sentence has any valid logic either
19:35<krinn>wakou2 has just prove that theory is wrong :)
19:36<V453000>k now I dont understand at all
19:37<krinn>since everyone picks up everything -> if everybody was doing that, wakou2 would have done it and don't ask what newGRF to use
19:42<V453000>ofc because he is just plain lazy and doesnt even bother trying things
19:42<V453000>I dont even consider those people
19:43<krinn>another new theory base on facts ?
19:44<V453000>lazy people have no place in this game
19:45<V453000>they will just get bored sooner or later anyway so why bother
19:45<krinn>i dunno, maybe because you're the bored one here, assuming everyone is lazy just because asking something
19:48<V453000>so you consider asking in some IRC channel a better option than trying to download the train set and check yourself when trains come out
19:49<krinn>considering how many trainset are there, it's just enough yes, but he was asking vehicle, not specially trainset
19:50<V453000>I still think trying, discovering, and learning on your own is a lot more productive
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19:50<V453000>soo good night
19:50<krinn>good night too
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 15 00:00:00 2013