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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-08-17

---Logopened Sat Aug 17 00:00:07 2013
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01:10<maddy_>good morning guys
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02:26<Arkabzol>as opposed to ladies of the night
02:27<Arkabzol>In other news, cities grow strangely...
02:28<Arkabzol>I wonder if grid size matters...
02:33<Supercheese>There's a pretty recent thread about that: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=68299
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02:52<@planetmaker>moin
02:58<@Rubidium>moin maker of planets
02:59<dihedral>hello
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04:27<@Terkhen>good morning
04:28<@Alberth>mornink Terkhen
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05:27<LordAro>/o
05:31<@Alberth>hi hi
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05:32<LordAro>hai Alberth
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05:53<maddy_>how do I show a generic error window (red background)?
05:55<@Alberth>there is some call to create an error window
05:57<@Alberth>ShowErrorMessage in error.h, I think
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06:01<maddy_>yes, thanks
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06:11<maddy_>how would I solve this problem: my identifier for a window is TileIndex+Track, but WindowNumber is just int32
06:12<maddy_>I guess I will need to create separate identifier for it
06:13<frosch123>TileIndex is 22 bit, Track is 6 or 3 bit (depending whether you want TrackMask or TrackBit), so where's the problem?
06:14<maddy_>well, nowhere if that is the case ;) I just saw TileIndex defined as uint32 or whatever, so I thought that takes all 32 bits
06:15<frosch123>maximum mapsize is 2kx2k
06:15<frosch123>so 11 bits + 11 bits
06:15<maddy_>ok then it works perfectly
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06:31<@Alberth>moin
06:37<frosch123>hai albert
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07:07<@Rubidium>... except for the huge map patch ofcourse...
07:08<@Rubidium>but don't care about them. That's (eventually) the problem of that patch
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07:18<Aristide>Hi !
07:18<@Alberth>hi hi
07:22<Aristide>Hi Alberth :)
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>maddy_: ti | (track << (map_x + map_y)) should work
07:32<maddy_>Eddi|zuHause: yeah that's what I used
07:32<maddy_>roughly
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07:33<Eddi|zuHause>that should also work for most of the "huge map" patches
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>at least i have never heard of them supporting 64k x 64k maps :p
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>and all the newgrf stuff etc. breaks way earlier than that
07:38<frosch123>"all"? :p
07:38<frosch123>how much newgrf stuff is there that depends on absolute map positions?
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, there is one variable :)
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>and the one GRF that could really make use of it (AV8) doesn't...
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>so i guess nobody actually uses it and nothing will thus break ;)
07:40<frosch123>what use should it make of it?
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>plane ranges
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>scale ranges of the largest planes so they (barely) make it across the whole map
07:41<frosch123>plane range is a relative distance, no absolute one
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>depending on map size
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>i was fairly sure when it was introduced they said it was absolute
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>i don't actually use planes :p
07:43<frosch123>well, yes, it is additive relative, not multiplicative relative :p
07:43<@Alberth>you use only low-flying vehicles at tracks :)
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really use maglev either
07:44<@Alberth>lol
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>as in: i rarely get that late in the game.
07:44<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: what about hoover cats?
07:44<frosch123>ah, they are late game as well
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07:44<@planetmaker>how do hover cats work? bind marmelade bread on their back?
07:44<frosch123>they only work on water afaik
07:45<frosch123>ask V about it
07:45<frosch123>maybe they are just unicorns in disguise
07:45<MNIM>planetmaker: no, that's infinite energy generators
07:45<@planetmaker>true, he should know
07:45<MNIM>Hovercrafts do work on land
07:46<@Alberth>that cannot be true, I never saw that happen in OpenTTD
07:46<MNIM>it's just that they're a ^#%$@ to drive in a straight line that isn't a 0.0% grade exact
07:46<V453000>:)
07:46<@planetmaker>but only because someone patched them, MNIM. In OpenTTD they can't yet
07:46<frosch123>Alberth: there is a patch for it .p
07:46<MNIM>oooh. in OTTD :P
07:46<@Alberth>frosch123: there is? cool. Ships on land!
07:47<frosch123>Alberth: i changed the gettiletrackstatus function to return valid track for all tiles for ships
07:47<frosch123>though it crashed when ships traversed certain tile types
07:47<@Alberth>:D
07:48<frosch123>because they tried to access something that asserts on some tiletypes
07:48<frosch123>but andy is still dreaming about it :p
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>probably should exclude houses and industries :p
07:48<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: or demolish them while driving :)
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07:48<@planetmaker>godzilla-ships :D
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>i think i had such problems with either the level crossing or fence patch
07:49<@planetmaker>the new disaster type. Borrowed from SC
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>probably the fence
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>i had to drop out early for things like houses
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07:57<maddy_>why do my UI components go in vertical order even when using NWID_HORIZONTAL
07:57<maddy_>e.g. on top of each other
07:58<frosch123>make sure the horizontal container is th emost inner one
07:59<frosch123>there are some widgets which are containers in disguise
07:59<frosch123>e..g panels
07:59<maddy_>yeah that's probably the problem
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08:31<Eddi|zuHause>"Google downtime causes 40% drop in worldwide internet traffic"
08:40<maddy_>looks like I might get my patch somewhat working today
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09:06<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, then shut them down, the world can do wit the extra bandwidth
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10:02<maddy_>how does CMD_ get resolved to a command function?
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10:03<frosch123>there's a table in command.cpp
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11:21<maddy_>what am I doing wrong: first SB(p1, 8, 3, 1), then GB(p1, 8, 3) I get 0 back, when I expect to get 1?
11:21<dihedral>i am in Germany - i want DE :-P
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11:24<maddy_>come on guys, must be something simple, just not seeing it
11:24<@Rubidium>maybe something in the (missing) context messes something up?
11:24<maddy_>hmm, oh I think I know...
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11:32<maddy_>I had to set the bits in right order in consecutive SB calls
11:37<dihedral>creating an irc connection is a slow process
11:37<dihedral>blast
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11:45<maddy_>I am using SB somehow wrongly
11:48<maddy_>if I want to set a value to the first 6 bits, I should do SB(p1, 5, 6, ...) right?
11:49<maddy_>what is the different between SB and Extract?
11:50<maddy_>I mean GB
11:52<dihedral>as far as i get the source, there are usually comments
11:53<maddy_>yeah I know, I didn't understand from the comments, do you think I would ask for help if I'd understand it from the comments?
11:55<frosch123>assigning first 6 bits would be SB(bla, 1, 6, ble)
11:56<frosch123>err, SB(bla, 0, 6, ble)
11:56<frosch123>GB is more low level than Extract
11:57<maddy_>frosch123: ok, thanks, that was my error
11:58<frosch123>what interpretation lead you to 5 ?
11:58<maddy_>I thought the start bit is from the other end, e.g. for 6 bits 0 to 5, so I thought 5 is the start
11:59<frosch123>oh, big endian
11:59<frosch123>ok, noone uses big endian
11:59<frosch123>big endian is from an era where people thought computer shoud use decimal numbers
11:59<maddy_>right, not sure why I thought that
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12:13<V453000>frosch123: people still DO think computers should use decimal numbers :D
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12:13<frosch123>people also think you can play sc without keyboard
12:13<frosch123>or program without linux
12:14<Bad_Brett>still a bit "jumpy", but here we go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBinroFjza8
12:14<V453000>exactly
12:18<Xaroth|Work>programming without linux is doable though
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12:20<frosch123>ok, that one is not as clear as the other ones :)
12:20<Xaroth|Work>I blame .net for that :P
12:21<@Rubidium>Xaroth|Work: yeah, in the past everyone coded op paper with whitespace (or rather lack thereof)
12:22<@Rubidium>V453000: dozenal is nicer though ;)
12:23<V453000>:D
12:23<Xaroth|Work>\o/ fortran
12:23<@Rubidium>Xaroth|Work: if you thought I meant fortran, then you haven't thought back far enough
12:24*TWerkhoven gets out the puncher
12:25<Xaroth|Work>Rubidium: after sitting in the sun for this long my mind refuses to do much work, so I'm glad I made it as far as fortran
12:25<TWerkhoven>when you could get coding equipment from the hardware store
12:34*andythenorth bbl
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12:54<NGC3982>Evening.
12:56<@Alberth>evenink
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13:37<maddy_>if I have TileIndex and Point, can I convert them to TileIndex and Track?
13:40<@Alberth>is there any relation?
13:40<maddy_>not sure, but I think so
13:41<@Alberth>what do you express with a TileIndex and Point ?
13:41<@Alberth>note that I have no idea what you are coding at all
13:43<maddy_>OnPlaceObject gives them as arguments
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25725 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-08-17 17:45:26 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 232 changes by mulderpf
13:45<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 31 changes by abdu354
13:45<@DorpsGek>luxembourgish - 69 changes by Phreeze
13:45<@Alberth>track_func.h looks useful to me for this problem
13:47<@Alberth>ah, you get precise coordinates, apparently
13:48<@Alberth>you may want to look what the rail construction toolbar window does there
13:49<maddy_>yeah solved it I think
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14:44<@Alberth>o/ Wolf01
14:44<Wolf01>hello
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14:57<andythenorth>o/
14:58<@Alberth>\o
15:00-!-krinn [~krinn@53.54.71.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd
15:00<krinn>hi guys
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15:01<krinn>is it normal to pay again station price to build a station at the same place with the same type (building a station over a station)
15:02<TWerkhoven>yes, i believe so
15:03<@Alberth>it is
15:04<krinn>the question is then why?
15:05<Wolf01>in your country, if one want to renew/change something, can do it for free?
15:08<krinn>well, of course not, but i would have payed the new thing, while here i pay the same thing
15:08<krinn>except station creation date, nothing change (i'm not even sure the creation date change tbh)
15:09<krinn>ah yes, i forgot (that's the main point here), the graphic change ^^
15:10<@Alberth>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1674 but there are several such issues
15:11<Wolf01>I doubt the game can recognize it's the very same object, or it wouldn't allow the action (already built)
15:15<krinn>hmmm they speak about newGRF, it's the same kind of issue, but i just speak about non newGRF
15:16<Wolf01>it's to make that work
15:18<krinn>that answer my "why" question, thanks guys
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15:26<@Alberth>without NewGRF the issue is indeed confusing, but so far we haven't found a nice general rule that prevents this confusion without breaking other cases as well
15:28<krinn>the only purpose (on non newGRF) is to make the graphic change, how about a zero or lower cost and allow an existing station graphic to change with another function instead of the one that create the station?
15:29<andythenorth>I don't think it's worth worrying about
15:29<andythenorth>I agree that it can be annoying to see when playing
15:29<andythenorth>but it's only a problem when you don't have much money
15:30<krinn>the money problem is always easy for human, it love to get complex with an AI
15:34<krinn>and that's just the money problem : those kind of issue change the station tile name position (so the station position from an AI pov), something a human also don't care
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15:37<krinn>ah no i've just tried, location doesn't change at least
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>so why would your AI overbuild a station?
15:37<@Alberth>perhaps only when you remove the tile with the sign
15:37<andythenorth>location only changes if station is rebuilt iirc
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>location only changes if you remove parts so that the sign is outside the station rectangle
15:38<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, i suppose like human, to get the new graphic: built one width station, add one width to it : you get a 2 flat platforms station
15:38<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, overbuild it with a 2 width station, you get the graphic with roof
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and why do you expect that to be free?
15:39<krinn>because two width station or 2x 1 width station == same price, while now it gave twice
15:40<krinn>so if you don't pay the roof, i don't see why i should pay it ?
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>actually i think building a second 1 width platform is more expensive than the first
15:42<krinn>no exact same price as first (if no tree... on it)
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not saying the current pricing model makes any sense. but you don't really make a case for why a different method would make more sense
15:43<krinn>told u, if roof cost 0 why i should pay roof the 2xstation price ?
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>there is no roof
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>it's an illusion
15:45<krinn>that's what i call "roof" http://wiki.openttd.org/images/6/69/Ro-ro1.png
15:46<krinn>http://wiki.openttd.org/File:Drive_thru.png and no roof (even this one looks like newGRF and that could be normal)
15:47<andythenorth>hmm
15:47<andythenorth>newgrf cost cb? :P
15:48<andythenorth>make yet more work for newgrf authors? :P
15:48<andythenorth>and some vars to read the current tile info
15:48<krinn>that would work for "classic" one too?
15:50<andythenorth>nope
15:50<krinn>:P
15:51<MNIM>So, not even a single comment on how inefficient that station is?
15:51<MNIM>o.0
15:51<MNIM>channel has changed. :P
15:51<krinn>but it's ok if design make it hard, let's pay the price or just not make it with roof
15:53-!-sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@85.186.160.35] has quit []
15:53<@Alberth>MNIM: it's sufficiently efficient, given the number of trains in the image
15:54*andythenorth makes this http://www.schwerlast-rhein-main.de/berichte/mammoet/8x8-quatar3.jpg
15:54<MNIM>Hah. In this case it would rather be inefficient, as a waste of infrastructure :P
15:54<andythenorth>in Lego
15:54<@Alberth>andy, what does it carry?
15:55<@Alberth>it says "schwerlast", ie "heavy load"
15:55<MNIM>Looks like it pulls, rather than carry
15:55<MNIM>I think it's a tractor for heavy terrain, weighted with concrete
15:55<krinn>looks like kind of truck to pull heavy engine
15:57<@Alberth>good night
15:57<krinn>night Alberth
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17:21<Supercheese>I'm having a tough time understanding how OTTD generates station names
17:22<Supercheese>Seemingly a pool of available names is gradually decreased
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17:26<@planetmaker>Supercheese, the best explanation here is indeed the source
17:27<@planetmaker>it basically goes down a list of available names. And choses the first available one
17:27<frosch123>most names have restrictions
17:27<frosch123>like west/east/south/north/heights/center/woods etc. actually have a meaning
17:27<Supercheese>So, when a grf provides a nearby station name, where does that enter into the name generation? It seems somehow the Oilfield and Mines names are disabled, for some reason
17:28<Supercheese>in FindNearIndustryName
17:28<@planetmaker>grf-provided names got priority
17:28<@planetmaker>but still must be unique
17:28<Supercheese>I cannot find where they are removed from the pool of free names
17:28<Supercheese>if they are, that is
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17:30<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly are you reading?
17:30<Supercheese>station_cmd.cpp
17:30<Supercheese>GenerateStationName
17:30<Supercheese>(and context)
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17:34<Eddi|zuHause>uint32 tmp = free_names & _gen_station_name_bits[name_class]; <-- this is the line where oilfield etc. are tested
17:34<@planetmaker>g'night
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>airport/oilfield/dock/heliport like in the beginning of the function
17:35<Supercheese>Some of these operators confuse me, I think they're bitwise operators?
17:36<Supercheese>Like <<
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>yes. 1<<blah means "set the blah-th bit of the bitfield"
17:36<Supercheese>No matter how many times I read about it on wikipedia, it doesn't make much sense
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>in theory one could introduce there one or more names for stations and busstops as well. like the first railway station could get "(main) station" and "central" could be reserved for bus stops, etc.
17:38<Supercheese>Rail and Road don't have any custom strings, it seems
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>but they could have
17:39<Supercheese>that whole station name bits thing is perplexing
17:39<Supercheese>what are the "1U"s?
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>1U is like a regular 1, only it's "unsigned"
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17:39<Eddi|zuHause>which may or may not make a difference in certain situations
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>the M(STR_SV_STNAME_AIRPORT) counts the position of the station name relative to the beginning of the list
17:41<Supercheese>I wonder why setting a nearby station name in a grf disables the Mines name bit
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>so if that is the 5th station name, then the 5th bit will be set, i.e. yout of the 32 bits of an "unsigned int" you get "0000 0000 0001 0000"
17:41<Supercheese>I don't see anything special about the Mine name check
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>err
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>forgot a few 0000
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>so this check "free_names & _gen_station_name_bits[name_class]" looks up whether a name is free AND is in the list of special names for this class. if there is one, it is returned in the next line
17:43<frosch123>mine is the prototype of a station name depending on an industry
17:43<frosch123>also the rule for "mine" is not exactly useful for newgrf industries
17:43<frosch123>it would also trigger on stuff like sandpits
17:45<Supercheese>Hmm, where is the property 24 station name returned? I can't seem to find it
17:45<Supercheese>all I see is Oilfield and Mines are disabled
17:45<frosch123>it stores the industry type in the station
17:46<frosch123>and sets the name to some STR_ representing naming via industry
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably buried in the CircularTileSearch
17:46<frosch123>the actual property is evaluated way later
17:46<frosch123>that is needed because the grf may change and the name may change
17:46<andythenorth>bye
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>FindNearIndustryName
17:46<frosch123>so you cannot store the name in the savegame
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17:46<frosch123>but only a reference to the industrytype
17:46<Supercheese>Interesting
17:48<Supercheese>I think I need to find the place where the name is evaluated
17:53<frosch123>strings.cpp or string.cpp
17:53<frosch123>never can remember which is which :p
17:53<frosch123>but i have no idea what you want in that place
17:53<frosch123>everything is decided there already
17:54<frosch123>it's only the gui code for drawing
17:54<Supercheese>overriding newgrf-provided nearby station names with station names from nearby industries
17:54<Supercheese>basically I don't like FIRS' new nearby names
17:54<frosch123>ah i remember
17:55<frosch123>you want all stations to have the exact same name as the industry :p
17:55<Supercheese>so I'd like to add an OTTD advanced option to name stations according to nearby industry, irrespective of grf-provided stuff
17:55<Supercheese>exactly
17:55<frosch123>like no station names at all basically
17:55<frosch123>only industry names
17:55<Supercheese>for when stations are beside industries at least
17:55<frosch123>well, yeah, then string/strings.cpp might be the right place for you
17:55<Supercheese>things get a bit hairy for in-town industries like grocery stores
17:55<Supercheese>but even then I like it, others might not though
17:57<Supercheese>yikes, this is a very, very long chain of case XX:, case YY:, case:ZZ...
17:57<Supercheese>strings.cpp seems to be where the magic happens
18:00<Wolf01>'night
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18:14<frosch123>night
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19:05<Supercheese>ugh, patchwriting is frustrating
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19:09<Supercheese>I could have edited FIRS 10 times by now
19:10<Supercheese>rather than try for the "elegant" solution
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19:35<Supercheese>Man, where does the town name get put into the nearby station name?
19:44<Supercheese>Meh, I give up for now
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19:57<Bad_Brett>hello supercheese
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21:57<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: usually with a "SetDParam"
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22:56<ChubbyPitbull>Evening! Would it be possible to get talk rights in openttd.dev?
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23:09<ChubbyPitbull>Guess those people are out partying :)
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23:27<Supercheese>More like asleep
23:29<ChubbyPitbull>Haha possible
23:30<ChubbyPitbull>Decided to take a look at developing, banged out one of the "easy" wanted changes, had some Q's before thinking about committing.
23:33<ChubbyPitbull>Guess I'll check back in the morning :) Night!
23:34<Bad_Brett>why do people sleep so much?
23:34<Bad_Brett>am i the only european awake at this hous?
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23:48<SamanthaD>\o
---Logclosed Sun Aug 18 00:00:09 2013