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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-09-03

---Logopened Tue Sep 03 00:00:59 2013
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01:37<maddy_>morning guys
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03:31<maddy_>yeah, elop did a good job for microsoft
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03:57<dihedral>good morning
04:00<__ln__>g'ning d'dral
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04:25<dihedral>__ln__, i learned not to speak with a full mouth
04:25<dihedral>but then you typed, granted :-P
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08:06<Xaroth|Work>yay, Linux for Workgroups is released
08:09<@peter1138>We're up all night to get lucky.
08:10<@peter1138>Still on 3.2 myself.
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08:15<Eddi|zuHause>3.4 here
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08:43<LordAro>3.10, losers :p
08:46<Bad_Brett2>what's linus?
08:46<Xaroth|Work>ask Linux
08:46<Bad_Brett2>oh yeah linus
08:46<Bad_Brett2>...that u-knicks guy?
08:48<Bad_Brett2>my jokes are not very got right now...
08:48<Bad_Brett2>anyway, got to go
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10:00<Xaroth|Work>o/ Belugas
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11:59<fjb>Moin Terkhen
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13:24<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
13:24<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 21 hours, 43 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <andythenorth> as Sherlock Holmes used to say
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25754 trunk/src/lang/serbian.txt (2013-09-03 17:45:09 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>serbian - 18 changes by ivan_mile
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14:23<DanMacK>Hey Brett
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14:31<Miauw>What's the HQ do?
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>it gives you free supply of passengers
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14:46<Eddi|zuHause>like if you connect two towns early on, you put the HQ in the smaller town, so you have better usage on the return trip
14:46<Miauw>Oh, I see
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14:49<Pinkbeast>Or, put it next to your largest station to feed your enormous ego. I do this.
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15:29<Eddi|zuHause>one of the most annoying features of original transport tycoon was that you couldn't move your HQ, so it was always in the way later on. that's why i stopped building it
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>OpenTTD still has that problem with statues
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15:43*Pinkbeast has never stompified all an AI's RVs just to get them bankrupt to get one lousy statue out the way... honest.
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15:54<Eddi|zuHause>i stopped playing with AIs as well :p
15:55<Pinkbeast>Sometimes I like to see what they get up to
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>i think with the original AI, destroying their vehicles makes them have their stations stick around longer
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>actually, to this day i have absolutely no clue what made it keep tracks open or close them...
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15:59<Bad_Brett>i never knew back then that the hq actually serves a purpose
15:59<Bad_Brett>i thought it was just for show
15:59<Bad_Brett>and i'm pretty sure you could demolish it?
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know about TTD, but definitely not in TTO
16:04<Bad_Brett>i must install it again just to see... can i really be that wrong? :P
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>oh you can be so wrong on so many things...
16:05<Bad_Brett>i remember that the HQ returned to it's original state, so i usully didn't want to 'doze it, until i discovered that it grew back rather fast
16:06<Bad_Brett>i don't think i ever played ttd as a kid... i didn't even like ttd. i hated the fact that they changed the starting age year from 1930 to 195+
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i found that stupid as well
16:13<Bad_Brett>by the way, i have an interesting idea for my mod... i read on the internet that back in the old days, rich people would usually travel in one of the last wagons, because there were less smoke there. wouldn't it be interesting to make the cargo in passengers wagons close to the engine age faster? this would make it a lot more challenging to optimize the length of a train
16:14<Bad_Brett>this would also make it logical to put mail wagons and such between the engine and the passenger wagons
16:16<Pinkbeast>Bad_Brett: overly simulationist, and if there's a fiddly always-right thing to be done with wagon ordering, don't make the player do it...
16:19<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, that sounds like micromanagement at a place where little can be optimized and the feedback on optimizing is mediocre at best
16:20<@planetmaker>and where you'll also have a hard time yourself to tune that properly into stats, given the variety of possible map types
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16:21<Bad_Brett>i personally feel that there is too little micromanagement nowadays
16:22<Bad_Brett>sure, replacing 50 engines manually isn't fun, but at least you had something to do ;-)
16:22<Pinkbeast>If anything, this would contribute to the "always the largest, powerful, fastest engine available" tendency
16:22<@planetmaker>yet another "I want it realistic and thus make it a PITA to play NewGRF"?
16:22<Pinkbeast>Think of those UKRS games where everything's an A4 or a Merchant Navy and then everything's a Deltic
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16:24<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, the game is about building a decent transport network. about choosing the right type of vehicle for the right task, too. But if it boils down to it should be rather 2 wagons than 3 where the map rather wants 4. Then it's going wrong
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16:26<@planetmaker>it's IMHO also wrong when the newgrf tells me for realism reasons that the engine changes speed in the year 1945 - due to new transport regulations. After all I'm the manager and make the regulations
16:26<@planetmaker>the engine doesn't change
16:26<TWerkhoven>should the newgrf instead mention techological advances being applied to said engine?
16:27<Bad_Brett>planetmaker: the problem with TT and OpenTTD is that as soon as you get things going, there's a snowball effect and you just become more and more powerful
16:27<Pinkbeast>Er, we don't make the regulations - at a bare minimum we are subject to the whims of a collection of insane tree-worshippers :-)
16:28<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, use a game script
16:28<Bad_Brett>yeah, i use those
16:28<@planetmaker>impose restrictions by global game script
16:28<@planetmaker>make it give goals
16:28<@planetmaker>but not make the player count pies
16:29<@planetmaker>IMHO the biggest step forward in NewGRF concepts recently is NUTS. It threw away all realism concerns and focuses on game play
16:29<@planetmaker>and that works very well.
16:30<@planetmaker>the same could of course be done with a 'realistic' set, if you don't mimic every historic intricacy
16:30<@planetmaker>but allow for *some* artistic license
16:30<Bad_Brett>i agree about the realism
16:31<Bad_Brett>i will change many of the engine specs, introduction dates etc. to make the gameplay more interesting
16:32<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth :-)
16:32<Bad_Brett>my idea wasn't really about realism... it was rather about finding an explaination for adding some new mechanics
16:32<andythenorth>I think NUTS is very funny and well drawn, but it's not what I'd choose for a game :)
16:33<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, IMHO it *does* make sense to have different wagons with different loading speed + cargo aging. Or doing that via refit alternatively. But that depending on position in consist? urgs
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16:36<Bad_Brett>of course the effects of this would be rather small, so that you could play the game without paying attention to these things
16:38<Bad_Brett>but i personally think it would be kind of fun to make those decisions... adding a mail wagon will slow down the train and perhaps slow down other trains as well, but on the other hand the train might become more cost efficient
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16:40<andythenorth>I think so too
16:40<andythenorth>but I'm not sure the game delivers enough reward for the decision
16:41<Bad_Brett>well, that was my proposal... to make cargo age faster in passenger wagons close to the engine... so that it would make sense to add mail wagons and put luxourious passenger wagons in the end of the train
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16:42<Bad_Brett>hi danmack
16:44<Bad_Brett>so for a short route, it might be good to have fast, cheap, short trains
16:44<Bad_Brett>and for longer routes, it might be better to have a slightly slower train with mail wagons between the engine and the passenger wagons
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16:45<@planetmaker>that reasoning eludes me. Especially how the positioning in the train is interesting there
16:47<Bad_Brett>well, if you was in charge of a train IRL, you probably wouldn't place a livestock wagon between two passenger wagons either
16:48<Bad_Brett>the point is to make it a bit harder to decide what the optimal length of a train is
16:49<Bad_Brett>anyway, this is just an experiment and i will probably scrap this idea
16:49<Bad_Brett>but i'm gonna try it first :-)
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17:02<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: a different twist for your thought: allow "premium class" wagons with slower decay, but it can't be the first 3 wagons behind an engine
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>so people that don't want to care just add normal wagons, and people who want variety...
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17:05<@Terkhen>good night
17:05<Bad_Brett>eddi: that's a good suggestion
17:08<Bad_Brett>i mean, when there are so many exciting options, it would be shame to at least not try these things :-)
17:09<@planetmaker>that sounds much better yes
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17:20<Bad_Brett>hmm... i better change that palette, this doesn't do it for me:
17:20<Bad_Brett>(never mind the tender, it has the wrong mask sprite)
17:21<NGC3982>That looks nice.
17:21<NGC3982>But doesn't that belong in Rollercoaster Tycoon 3?
17:21<NGC3982>(Sorry, i could not hold that in).
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17:25<Bad_Brett>pink looks surprisingly good though
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue how recolouring works in 32bpp
17:31<Bad_Brett>i think there are several ways to do it
17:32<Bad_Brett>maybe not
17:35<Bad_Brett>but i'd say the color changing algorithm is rather ...strange
17:42<Bad_Brett>for some reason, i always seem to have problems with the orange color
17:42<Bad_Brett>while the yellow version almost always look good
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18:02<Bad_Brett>i wonder if this still applies:
18:03<@planetmaker>the history of the page seems to say 'no'
18:08<Bad_Brett>nuts actually looks really nice... i've never tried it because i usually don't like fantasy vehicles, but i'll give it a try
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18:47<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't played an actual game since nuts was released
18:50<Sacro>you had your nuts released?
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19:01<Eddi|zuHause>i speak foren language. i not no what you mean
19:17<Sacro>du hast dein eier lösen
19:28<Bad_Brett>mmm das ist sehr gut
19:31<Bad_Brett>haha i remember when i studied german
19:33<Bad_Brett>there was a story a story in the textbook called "Ein Neger beim Mittagsessen" or something like that
19:35<Bad_Brett>it was a about a guy at a diner who forgot where his table was
19:35<Bad_Brett>so he blamed a black man for eating his food
19:36<Bad_Brett>and shouted: "Du Affe!!!"
19:36<Bad_Brett>this was only about 11-12 years ago
19:36<Bad_Brett>but something tells me that story has been removed
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20:22<Eddi|zuHause>there's this great shortfilm: "Der Scharzfahrer"
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>(which is a pun, it can be interpreted as "black person going by tram" or "person using a tram without ticket")
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20:28<Bad_Brett>is it on youtube?
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20:43<Bad_Brett>haha i didn't see that one coming
20:44<Bad_Brett>though i was under the impression that germany has become a very "politically correct" country
20:45<Bad_Brett>like sweden
20:45<Bad_Brett>which can actually be quite unbearable at times
20:46<Eddi|zuHause>this was filmed in the '90s
20:46<Eddi|zuHause>the GDR just collapsed, there was lots of unemployment, which gave way for anti-foreigner movements
20:46<Bad_Brett>ah i see
20:47<Eddi|zuHause>which is basically depicted by the old lady rambling about
20:48<Bad_Brett>because last time i was in germany, it seemed that every person i met introduced themselves like this: "Hi, I'm Michael. Did you know that I hate racists?"
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>even today, there are a lot of right-extremist voters in the eastern parts of germany
20:48<Bad_Brett>some guys in their twenties even apologized for the war... it was quite bizarre
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>they are not as much in absolute numbers than in western germany, but in relative numbers (which count for voting) they are enough to get over the 5% barrier
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>sure, there are such people as well
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>in western germany those right-extremist parties get more like 2%
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>which makes them irrelevant because they don't get into parliaments that way
20:51<Bad_Brett>yeah, we have this semi-racist party called Sverigedemokraterna (Sweden Democrats) and they have like 10% now
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20:55<Bad_Brett>but it's not that strange, because we've had a lot of trouble in the suburbs lately, so i guess people are getting scared
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---Logclosed Wed Sep 04 00:00:01 2013