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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-09-07

---Logopened Sat Sep 07 00:00:07 2013
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03:31<@Alberth>o/
03:32<@planetmaker>moin
03:33<@Alberth>mornink
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03:38<@Alberth>pillow is literally providing the PIL interface? that's nice
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03:40<Wolf01>'morning
03:40<@Alberth>mornink
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03:54<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:20<@peter1138>Bah, my crap but expensive bike light won't work right :(
04:20<Xaroth|Work>Alberth: Pillow is a continuation of PIL
04:21<@peter1138>Maybe it doesn't like rechargables.
04:21<@peter1138>2.4V vs 3V is quite a difference.
04:22<@Alberth>Xaroth|Work: yeah, I just didn't expect they don't deviate from the PIL interface
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04:29<@planetmaker>not yet :-)
04:30<LordAro>/o
04:31<@planetmaker>hi LordAro
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07:38<@Rubidium>why can't news be brought objectively instead of sensationally?
07:39<LordAro>because money
07:40<LordAro>bbc is usually ok though
07:41<@Rubidium>so in the Netherlands there is a high speed rail line on which two services (should) run
07:41<@Rubidium>the Thalys from Amsterdam to Paris and the Fyra (from Amsterdam to Breda or Brussels)
07:41<@Rubidium>now the Fyra service has been running for a few years, but with non-high speed trains
07:42<@Rubidium>high speed trains for the Fyra service were ordered and taken into service in December last year to be taken out of service in January this year
07:42<Miauw>Oh god, the Thalys.
07:42<Miauw>I mean
07:42<Miauw>The Fyra.
07:43<Miauw>The goddamn drama that's been on the news over here in Belgium.
07:43<@Rubidium>news: "Fyra trains are not running anymore", except... the old non-high speed Fyra trains were taken back into service... so technically they are still running
07:43<Miauw>About that thing.
07:43<Miauw>Over here, nobody ever heard about Fyra until the high-speed trains.
07:43<Miauw>It was called "The Fyra" here.
07:44<@Rubidium>today the news is: "Fyra trains are running again", except... it's those inherently unsafe V250 high speed trains... with only one train movement a week to prevent the trains from rusting solid without taking any passengers
07:44<@Rubidium>(and the old style Fyra trains are still running)
07:45<Miauw>Didn't they catch fire while still anyway or something?
07:45<@Rubidium>having said that, the V250 trains for the Fyra service are, for current standards, nice death traps
07:45<Miauw>Yeah.
07:46<Miauw>And nobody liked their already generally late trains being discarded for this horrible thing they didn't even use...
07:51<@Rubidium>you know Fyra = 4 in Swedish? So, how were they expected to get a good grade for that project?
07:52<Miauw>Heh
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08:09<Eddi|zuHause>are those the ones where the bottom drops out?
08:10<andythenorth>bonsoir
08:10<andythenorth>@seen danmack
08:10<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 19 hours, 46 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
08:10<andythenorth>"danmack won't you come back?"
08:12<@Alberth>o/
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08:25<@planetmaker>andythenorth, so... should translations from eints also be pushed back into FIRS repository?
08:26<andythenorth>do we trust it? o_O
08:26<@planetmaker>I do
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>do you want to review it manually?
08:27<@planetmaker>also, Eddi|zuHause and andythenorth: it doesn't work on projects where the lang files are generated...
08:27<andythenorth>figures :)
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: must be attached to the .in files
08:27<andythenorth>so FISH is out
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: in CETS, the .in files are normal language files, they just need a different filename because the automatically generated strings have to be appended
08:29<andythenorth>I could blat the generated stuff onto the end of the file manually during compile :P
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08:31<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, as an idea... could the automatic generated stuff go into custom_tags.txt ?
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: how would that work?
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08:32<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: custom_tags can only replace the right side of a string definition?
08:32<@planetmaker>hm, yes
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>but i need all the engine names, and the axle schemes from the table
08:35<@Alberth>extend nml?
08:35<andythenorth>global strings, untranslated?
08:35<andythenorth>is that what custom_tags is?
08:35<@planetmaker>it's global commands
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>the makefile uses custom_tags to insert the revision number
08:35<@planetmaker>which can just be to replace {COMMAND} with "my custom text"
08:36<@planetmaker>so, yes, basically a custom replacement thing
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i don't really see a sane way other than what i'm currently doing
08:37<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: altenatively you could use a different folder for generated fiels
08:38<frosch123>or for the input (eints supports reading lang files from a custom folder, but not custom filenames)
08:38<@planetmaker>good idea, frosch123 !
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you want to patch that into CETS, go ahead...
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>should be trivial change
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>in scripts/files.py or so
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09:46<andythenorth>meh
09:46<andythenorth>porting ship nml to train nml
09:46<andythenorth>action 0 block is causing a lot of nml whining :P
09:47<andythenorth>seems that trains can't be 400t :P
09:48<@Alberth>land would buckle under the load :)
09:50<V453000>XD
09:51<V453000>dont tell me you are really making ships on wetrails
09:51<andythenorth>ok
09:51<andythenorth>I'm not :)
09:51<andythenorth>although due to a temporary lack of graphics, some versions will show ships on rails :P
09:52<V453000>wa? :D
09:53<andythenorth>so which properties have to be defined to make a train appear?
09:53<andythenorth>my trains aren't :P
09:53<andythenorth>nvm
09:53<andythenorth>forgot 'make install'
09:53<andythenorth>just ran 'make'
09:54<andythenorth>:m
09:54<V453000>idontgetwhatareyoudoing
09:55<andythenorth>newtrainsetwithdanmackallsecretnomoredetailsyet
09:55<@planetmaker>morethan1x?
09:55<frosch123>V453000: he does a prequel to nuts. horses before they became educated
09:56<andythenorth>V453000: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/5383/iron_horse_wet.png
09:57<V453000>XD
09:57<@planetmaker>lol
09:58<andythenorth>I love templated newgrf frameworks :P
09:58<andythenorth>1hr work, all ships are now trains
10:00<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/5384/iron_horse_wet_2.png
10:01<V453000>are quite low
10:02<andythenorth>also quite slow
10:02<andythenorth>missing some props :(
10:02<V453000>slow iz k
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10:05<V453000>andythenorth: do you intend to use nuts wetrails, or? :)
10:05<V453000>might want to try to align it with those in case :P
10:05<andythenorth>V453000: it will be trains soon
10:06<andythenorth>when my canadian conspirator sends sprites
10:06<V453000>boooooring
10:06<andythenorth>:D
10:07<V453000><- is drawing new shippies though :>
10:07<oskari89>30000 kph logic maglev train was even more intresting :D
10:07<oskari89>Andythenorth: Make your largest ship go that speed :)
10:07<oskari89>It would be amusing sight
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10:21<andythenorth>hmm
10:21<andythenorth>TE is 0 if cargo capacity not set? :P
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10:24<V453000>wut, no?
10:24<andythenorth>something else then
10:25<V453000>what does TE have to do with cargo capacity? :D
10:25<andythenorth>dunno
10:25<andythenorth>I have TE 0 for 2 trains, and it's set correctly for another 1
10:26<V453000>it depends on weight
10:26<V453000>but 0 is strange regardless
10:26<@planetmaker>0 is default for unset
10:27<V453000>:D oh
10:27<andythenorth>docs imply 0.3 is default
10:27<@planetmaker>I think only for the default trains
10:28<@planetmaker>any unset property has a value of 0 as default, I'd think?
10:28<@planetmaker>got link to that piece of docs?
10:29<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Train_properties
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>in general, all but the original vehicle stats are 0 if not initalized
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10:29<andythenorth>works fine if explicitly set
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>so always initialize stuff explicitly
10:30<V453000>in what case would you not want to set TE of your trains :D
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>in the lazy case :p
10:31<V453000>deosnt exist :>
10:31<andythenorth>in the case where you read the docs :P
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you read the docs wrong?
10:31<andythenorth>possible
10:32<@planetmaker>yeah, but docs are at least mis-leading there
10:33<andythenorth>"Default value is 0.3"
10:33<andythenorth>pretty unambiguous description of the default value
10:34<juzza1>maybe write "original trains use 0.3" is someone editing right now? i can
10:34<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I fixed wiki :-P
10:34<andythenorth>Thanks :)
10:34<juzza1>ok
10:36<V453000>pfft "good"
10:36<V453000>:D
10:36<V453000>255!
10:37<@planetmaker>for a value between 0 and 1? ;-)
10:37<V453000>255 is 1
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10:39<V453000>idk if it worked differently when I was starting to code vehicles, but I have 1-255 used everywhere instead of 0-1
10:40<juzza1>in properties, range is 0..1, if set via callback, it's 0..255
10:40<@planetmaker>V453000, uh... and value nfo?
10:40<@planetmaker>and what juzza1 says
10:41<V453000>:d
10:41<andythenorth>bbl
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10:49<Eddi|zuHause>callbacks not being able to use the same units as properties is one of the big weaknesses of nml
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10:50<@planetmaker>yes
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>but you need some stricter context for that to work
10:51<@planetmaker>yeah
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11:40<V453000>is it possible to create a fake newtree / stolen trees newGRF which bananas would recognize and download for broken savegames missing that file?
11:42<@planetmaker>you can hardly fake grfID, some meaningful content and still obtain the same md5sum
11:43<@planetmaker>which by those means would be rejected by bananas as "duplicate entry"
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11:44<Eddi|zuHause>you're better off just enablin developer tools and ignoring the grf
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>+g
11:45<V453000>well it isnt for me
11:45<V453000>many of our archived savegames arent loadable for people who do not have the newgrf from times before
11:45<LordAro>i think there should be a newgrf flag which shows that it only affects graphics, not gameplay, and therefore is optional
11:45<V453000>also would it make sense to overwrite "duplicate entry" as the exception of a deleted newGRF?
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>is it not in the grf pack?
11:46<@Alberth>LordAro: how to decide that is the problem
11:46<V453000>only test.grf version of stolen trees is in the grf pack, not newtrees and stolen trees
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: that doesn't work
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: as another grf can check for presence of the grf and suddenly it does matter
11:47<LordAro>surely you can test to see if a newgrf touches only actions that replace graphics?
11:47<@Alberth>can we not drop that feature?
11:48<V453000>honestly a save should always be openable, if everything breaks after loading, too bad
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: yes we can do that, but only if we have the grf
11:48<V453000>(regarding missing newgrfs)
11:48<@Rubidium>V453000: that's what you have a hex editor for
11:48<V453000>hex editor?
11:49<@Rubidium>yes, to open the savegame
11:49<V453000>:d
11:49<V453000>anyway, if I wanted to stop people from having issues with missing newtrees/stolen trees, what options do I have?
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: that's what [newgrf-static] already does, just people don't know about it since there is no gui
11:50<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, what would help to mark certain newgrfs as static, but still, on server-join prod clients to load it or obtain it
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: load the savegame, remove grf, save again, publisch the modified savegame
11:50<@Rubidium>V453000: conquer the world, and by law require all NewGRFs to be freely redistributable
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>-c
11:51<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: would have to compile all the revisions to save in the old one again
11:51<V453000>not really an option
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: you can download old releases
11:51<V453000>not that old
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: or you just take 1.0-ish and forget about older stuff
11:52<@Rubidium>if they're that old, you'll likely not be able to compile them either
11:52<V453000>mhm
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: why would you care about someone loding your archived games with a 0.6?
11:53<@Rubidium>e.g. 0.7 fails to compile with 4.8
11:53<V453000>valid point Eddi
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>i had to fix two or three things while trying to compile stuff around r12xxx
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>static cast, something about protected->public in yapf-rail and something else i forgot
11:54<@Alberth>const stuff
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes that's the static cast
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>@commit 18045
11:55<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r18045 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2009-11-11 21:15:58 UTC)
11:55<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Fix: GCC 4.5@HEAD not compiling OpenTTD anymore because of a "non-placement deallocation function [is] selected for placement delete", or in other words delete(void *, size_t) is 'magic'.
11:55<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: We implemented these delete(void *, size_t) operator functions because MSVC warned that "no matching operator delete found; memory will not be freed if initialization throws an exception" for new(size_t, size_t).
11:55<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: This disables MSVC warning about this because we do not use exceptions in the (constructors that use the) overridden allocation functions, as such they will never be called; delete(void *) remains necessary though.
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>that's the one
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>i forgot
11:56<V453000>what is the last revision loadable with 1.0.0?
11:57<@Rubidium>21279?
11:57-!-TWerkhov1n is now known as TWerkhoven
11:57<V453000>~2011?
11:58<V453000>no 2010
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>1.x is in 201x. easy to remember :=
11:59<V453000>:>
12:00<V453000>2.0 by 2020
12:00<V453000>?
12:00<V453000>:D :P
12:00<V453000>with all the features forums require?
12:00<@Rubidium>nah...
12:03<V453000>hm
12:03<V453000>well I will consider saving the things as suggested :P
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>yes. we must implement everything from the 2.0 thread by 2020 :p
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: you could keep the old files in the archive
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>incase problems occur
12:04<V453000>of course we would keep the files backed up somewhere
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12:05<frosch123>if you only consider the start of the 2.0 thread, we actually achieved that stuff iirc :p
12:05<@Alberth>nah, just release 1.10 :p
12:05<@Rubidium>1.A
12:05<V453000>xd
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>we had that same discussion with 0.x :p
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12:23<Miauw>Heh.
12:23<Miauw>I found a village on a really small island that literally just consists of 3 houses, 2 pieces of road and a bridge to the mainland
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>i've had a town with 0 population (just a road, or a road with a church)
12:25<Miauw>Actually, 2 houses
12:25<Miauw>One of them was a church.
12:25<Miauw>50 people
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes they can't even build bridges to the mainland
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>like in www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB) the town of Bliesdorf was one like that
12:28<Miauw>I'm playing on a map way too large for one person.
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>it would probably be way too large for multiple persons anyway :)
12:29<V453000>Eddi will you ever play another game to show? :D
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: i was about to revive one of my older games, but then i got distracted...
12:30<Miauw>I'm playing on the second size.
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>Miauw: in singleplayer you get away with the CPU not keeping up with the calculation, the game will just run a little slower. but in multiplayer it will kick you out
12:30<Miauw>I guess
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>so in multiplayer the game can't get too big
12:31<V453000>:P
12:31<V453000>distracted is wrong
12:31<Miauw>Besides, I've only actually DONE something on less than a quarter of this map
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i certainly played games like that as well :p
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>the rather small map above was actually an exception, because i wanted a "quick" game which i could finish within like one month
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>because this was a patched version with no savegame compatibility, and when those lay around for too long, you get annoyed because feature <X> is not in there yet, and you can't update
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, gtg
12:38<Miauw>Cya
12:39<Miauw>I just realized a rather disturbing thing
12:39<Miauw>I had two airplanes going between two airports.
12:39<Miauw>But they don't show up in the list anymore
12:39<Miauw>So they crashed
12:39<Miauw>And I didn't notice
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25755 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-09-07 17:45:20 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 1 changes by Evropi
13:45<@DorpsGek>hungarian - 4 changes by IPG
13:45<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 1 changes by Yoursnotmine
13:45<fjb>Moin
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13:54<@Alberth>hi hi
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15:03<andythenorth>what should I set default_cargo_type to for train engines?
15:03<andythenorth>I thought DEFAULT_CARGO_FIRST_REFITTABLE
15:03<andythenorth>but that causes the vehicle to be hidden in purchase list
15:04<andythenorth>ah
15:04<andythenorth>vehicle is not refittable
15:04<@planetmaker>:-)
15:04<andythenorth>so what should I use for default_cargo_type in that case?
15:04<andythenorth>puzzling :)
15:04<@planetmaker>passengers or coal
15:04<@planetmaker>or goods
15:04<andythenorth>ok thanks
15:05<@planetmaker>but I actually do think that it's a wagon/engine-specific thing
15:05<@peter1138>What's a good library/data structure for a key/type/value triplet list in C?
15:06<@peter1138>Arbitrary keys.
15:07<@peter1138>(Yeah, I probably shouldn't be using C, but I am...)
15:08<LordAro>nested lists, maps, some other std object?
15:08<@Rubidium>that ain't C
15:10<LordAro>damn
15:11<LordAro>of course not
15:13<LordAro>ignore my amateur opinion :L
15:43<andythenorth>should I care much about TE coefficient in a train set
15:43<andythenorth>I spent a lot of time on it in RV sets :P
15:43<andythenorth>can I just use 0.3 for trains? o_O
15:45*andythenorth likes the sound of no argument
15:48<@Alberth>as for a first approach, would be fine I guess :)
15:48<@Alberth>no idea what NUTS does there, but for industry it seems to be nicely tuned
15:50<V453000>NUTS uses values from 30 to 255
15:50<V453000>need other hints? :D
15:55<andythenorth>where do trains get sound effect from (using nml)?
15:56<@planetmaker>there's a soundXXX thing
15:56<@planetmaker>the finnish guys know by heart
15:57<andythenorth>seems to be a cb for trains
15:57<andythenorth>all other types have a prop
15:57-!-ntoskrnl11 [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:58<andythenorth>maybe I just read nfo spec :)
15:59<andythenorth>ah
15:59<andythenorth>I need prop 19
15:59*andythenorth -> nml source
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16:00<andythenorth>engine_class
16:00<alluke>planetmaker: could you give me the permissions repair code again please?
16:00<andythenorth>"Defines which livery colour settings apply to the vehicle" o_o
16:01<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains#Engine_traction_type_.2819.29
16:01<andythenorth>??
16:01*andythenorth thinks another docs updated? o_O
16:01<andythenorth>nml and nfo spec are at odds
16:03<@planetmaker>what is a permissions repair code?
16:03<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Builtin_functions @ andythenorth
16:04<@planetmaker> sound(soundfile[, volume])
16:04<andythenorth>different use case :) but thanks, useful
16:06<alluke>the one you told me put into terminal
16:06<V453000>Q: any way to flip rear vehicle of 2headed engine Without defining new spritesets?
16:06<alluke>something and path to the app
16:06<V453000>(make both 2headed units look the same way)
16:07<@planetmaker>chmod u+x path/to/file?
16:07<alluke>thanks
16:07<andythenorth>sudo rm /* ?
16:07<andythenorth>*don't* ^
16:07<andythenorth>:P
16:08<@peter1138>+-rf
16:09<andythenorth>frosch123: can you confirm that description for engine_class is wrong here? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Train_properties
16:09<andythenorth>it's supposed to describe prop 19 http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains#Engine_traction_type_.2819.29
16:09<andythenorth>I'll fix, unless this is an EAndythenorth scenario
16:09<andythenorth>but I tested it
16:11<frosch123>peter1138: gnome lib (glib) has c++ datastructure for c
16:12<frosch123>like lists, hashes etc
16:13<@peter1138>Yeah I could look at that.
16:13<@peter1138>Does it do the horrible GINT crap or is that gtk...
16:13<@peter1138>gpointer :S
16:14<@peter1138>Ah no, that's glib. Damn.
16:14<frosch123>andythenorth: no idea, i would expect that nml solves the property mess and does it differently
16:15<andythenorth>hmm
16:15<andythenorth>nml just maps prop 19 to engine_class
16:15<andythenorth>I think docs are wrong
16:16<andythenorth>I've never coded trains before, so it's all a bit 'wtf' for me
16:16<andythenorth>trains are bonkers
16:17<V453000>:(
16:18<frosch123>andythenorth: what would be wrong about docs?
16:18<frosch123>that it does not mention the sound effect?
16:18<andythenorth>no
16:18<andythenorth>says "Defines which livery colour settings apply to the vehicle"
16:18<andythenorth>which is possibly true
16:18<andythenorth>but at least not the whole story
16:18<frosch123>not?
16:18<andythenorth>the prop *does* change sound effect
16:19<frosch123>... that's what i asked before
16:19<frosch123>so, it changed livery and sound efffect?
16:19<andythenorth>yes
16:19<andythenorth>I was agreeing with you above
16:19<andythenorth>English can be ambiguous
16:19<andythenorth>:P
16:19<andythenorth>sorry
16:22<andythenorth>let's see if it also sets visual effect...
16:22<andythenorth>yes
16:23<andythenorth>no magic, literal interpretation of prop 19
16:23*andythenorth docs
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16:24<alluke>ehat the hell
16:24<alluke>no such file or directory
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17:04*andythenorth -> bed bed bed bed bed bed
17:04<andythenorth>bye
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17:05<V453000>bad
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19:54<Wolf01>'night
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20:58<SamanthaD>*waves*
20:58<Supercheese>Salve
21:00<@peter1138>Bleep
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