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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-09-08

---Logopened Sun Sep 08 00:00:13 2013
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02:47<andythenorth>don't use mixins for instantiation
02:47<andythenorth>ok then
02:48<andythenorth>I'll just grab values from global_ constants instead then :P
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04:59-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
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05:18<SamanthaD>morning Alberth
05:18<@Alberth>still enjoying openttd? :)
05:18<@Rubidium>nope :(
05:22<@Rubidium>it's so buggy
05:22<@Rubidium>there're like 60 bugs...
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05:29<@planetmaker>adf88 is very busy creating issues. And fixing them at the same time
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05:29<SamanthaD>of course I am!
05:30<SamanthaD>right now I'm hacking emacs though...
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05:52<SamanthaD>anyway... bedtime for me
05:52<SamanthaD>have fun 'yall
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06:03<@Alberth>o/ andy
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06:05<Wolf01>hi o/
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06:07<Wolf01>I cleaned my keyboard today, I think a standard keyboard could double its mass every 3 years
06:09<@Alberth>I shake it while holding it upside down, amazing what comes out of it then :)
06:11<Wolf01>and it's amazing what don't come out, I had to rip off all of the keys to get rid of hairs, biscuits, a gnome village under the right ctrl key
06:12<@Alberth>yeah, keyboards are one of the dirtiest areas in an office iirc
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06:34<Wolf01>o/ Aro
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06:44<Malinux->I guess it's a newgrf who causes this. The standard live-stock-wagons give negative income when they deliver livestock to a station
06:45<Malinux->instead of. income it says it costs to deliver
06:45<@planetmaker>you use transfer orders
06:45<@planetmaker>and the initially estimated income is higher than the actual.
06:45<@planetmaker>thus the last vehicle delivering gets negative income
06:46<@planetmaker>overall you still make money with the delivery
06:49<Malinux->ah, but there is a message in top of the train when it deliver live-stock. the message says xxxxx cost
06:49<Malinux->but the station I pick up from is a transfer-station, so it gets transfered livestock from it
06:51<@planetmaker>Malinux-, read up in our wiki upon transfer orders :-)
06:51<Weirdlittleeye>is there an easy way to get linear infrastructure maintenance costs?
06:52<@planetmaker>yes. Switch them off :-D
06:52<@planetmaker>it's linear with slope 0 then
06:52<Malinux->planetmaker: okey, this is the first time I have seen this :)
06:52<Weirdlittleeye>i know, but i was thinking about something more demanding :(
06:52<@planetmaker>Weirdlittleeye, then switch them on. But then it's not exactly linear
06:52<@planetmaker>which can be considered demanding
06:53<@planetmaker>Malinux-, it's quite usual when using transfers. You can shift the income between the 'legs' of the transfer parts
06:53<@planetmaker>should be described in wiki in detail, too
06:53<@planetmaker>it's some adv. setting
06:54<Malinux->planetmaker: this means I have to do something about the transfer trains?
06:54<Weirdlittleeye>so i assume there isn't any easy way to get it linear.. basecosts.grf i assume only multiplies the non-linear scaling
06:55<Malinux->the train in the picture has not a tansfer order, but it picks up transfered livestock
06:56<@planetmaker>Weirdlittleeye, yes, that only sets the general level by scaling stuff linearily by the selected factor
06:56<@planetmaker>Malinux-, yes. transfered cargo is the key
06:57<Malinux->planetmaker: thanx. I have to check out the transfered cargo :)
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07:55<Weirdlittleeye>i guess the nearest i can get to linear infrastructure costs is to increase vehicle running costs using basecosts.. there is some of the same effect, but it doesn't take into account infrastructure usage synergy
07:56<@planetmaker>Weirdlittleeye, also non-linear costs for infrastructure requires usage synergy. It actually requires it even more
07:56<@planetmaker>the more you build, the better you have to use it
07:56<Weirdlittleeye>yes, i tried it
07:56<Weirdlittleeye>but i think linear would be more fun
07:56<Weirdlittleeye>simply :)
08:18<Weirdlittleeye>i had an idea of demand-based economy, and then i checked the forums and YACD seemed to be closest to my idea.. gonna try it now
08:18<Weirdlittleeye>if it works like i think it might, it is a tremendous improvement over the a-bit-silly default economy
08:19<@planetmaker>Weirdlittleeye, did you try a nightly build and play with cargodist?
08:19<Weirdlittleeye>no, i checked the description of cargodist though
08:19<@planetmaker>well. That's what openttd now ships with
08:19<Weirdlittleeye>but it didn't seem so close to demand-driven economy
08:19<@planetmaker>yes not exactly as close. But the gameplay is rather similar
08:19<Weirdlittleeye>more like a solution for some problems created by the existing model
08:20<andythenorth>YACD is closes to demand driven idea
08:20<andythenorth>there is no price mechanic in ottd
08:21<andythenorth>closest * :)
08:21<andythenorth>price would be fun imho, but it's a whole extra layer of complications
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08:22<Weirdlittleeye>i guess it depends on the design, but i'll have to test YACD first.. might take some time :)
08:22<andythenorth>YACD is sadly not up to date with trunk
08:23<Weirdlittleeye>there are a bunch of compiled things i gathered
08:23<Weirdlittleeye>how far is nightly from stable?
08:23<@planetmaker>~8 months
08:23<Weirdlittleeye>is there a difference changelog or such?
08:24<@planetmaker>yes... the repo changelog
08:24<@planetmaker>for nightlies. stables ship with changelog
08:24<@Alberth>everything in the trunk commits which is not in the changelog of stables
08:24<@Alberth>ie new features mostly
08:25<@planetmaker>and new bugs :-P
08:26<@Alberth>people never write then in the commit message for some reason :p
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08:27<@planetmaker>-Feature: Add some random bugs
08:28<Weirdlittleeye>looks like the newest compiled YACD is for 1.3.0-beta2
08:28<andythenorth>just check any commit by me :P
08:28<andythenorth>random chance of bugs :P
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08:38<@Alberth>yeah, for some reason some patchers prefer to patch against stables instead of trunk, which to me makes no sense at all
08:48<andythenorth>id range for vehicles is ~65k?
08:48<andythenorth>and there's no restriction on articulated ids being <128 any more?
08:52<@planetmaker>there is a restriction on articulated IDs. But much bigger
08:55<Weirdlittleeye>i had a bus going between two stations inside a small town, when i moved other of the stations further, i believe the income only increased in one direction travelled.. i wonder how it is supposed to go
08:56<andythenorth>"For NML 0.2 and lower the vehicle ID of the articulated part must be in the range 0 .. 127."
08:56<andythenorth>so for higher nml? o_O
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08:57<@Alberth>doesn't nml handle ids for you?
08:58<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you haven't been handling NML 0.2 for... ages :D
08:58<andythenorth>Alberth: I use explicit ids
08:58<andythenorth>can't remember why, but I do
08:58<andythenorth>possibly because the string ids might change
08:58<andythenorth>there was some reason
08:59<@planetmaker>the reason is that you can then juggle around vehicles without set becoming incompatible with previous versions
08:59<andythenorth>and it's not much work
09:04<@planetmaker>andythenorth, NML 0.3: 2**15 articulated IDs
09:04<@planetmaker>hm, no
09:05<andythenorth>@calc 2**13
09:05<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 8192
09:05<andythenorth>ok thanks
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09:47<Weirdlittleeye>YACD logic seems very nice for passengers, mail and valuables
09:48<Weirdlittleeye>'route-demand' driven
09:48<Weirdlittleeye>for other types i think demand-driven (without route) would be nicer
09:49<Weirdlittleeye>the first idea would be that the destinations each have an individual price they pay for the cargo
09:50<Weirdlittleeye>so that distance-based value is only left for route-demand-driven cargo
09:50<Weirdlittleeye>or perhaps time instead of distance, hmm
09:50<Weirdlittleeye>as distance determines some of the time
09:52<Weirdlittleeye>destinations would set their prices based on their point of view (distance to closest source? demand could have an effect)
09:52<Weirdlittleeye>something like this would be my vision of making the economy fun
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09:56<andythenorth>newgrf with 2 eras (steam, diesel)
09:56<andythenorth>8 locos per era
09:56<andythenorth>randomise the locos from a choice of say, 16? o_O
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09:56<andythenorth>(not even sure if it's possible)
09:56<andythenorth>or wise
09:56<andythenorth>but every game would be different :P
09:57<@planetmaker>possible... possibly
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10:03<andythenorth>how would it be done?
10:04<andythenorth>is there a random seed parameter, per game?
10:05<@planetmaker>yes. Not sure it's newgrf-accessible. But in principle either it, or a random number per newgrf could be added
10:05<@planetmaker>I think Eddi|zuHause had a patch for that :D
10:06<andythenorth>I would group locos into things like 'general purpose', 'heavy freight' etc
10:06<andythenorth>so that gameplay wasn't totally broken
10:06<andythenorth>might allow it to break a bit :)
10:06<andythenorth>for amusement
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10:16<Weirdlittleeye>oops, the effect of distance is reverse, so never mind
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11:57<Miauw>I can't buy electric trains for some reason.
11:57<Miauw>And I'm certain
11:57<Miauw>Oh, right
11:57<Miauw>Wrong depot
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12:04<andythenorth>can haz a random seed global to the newgrf?
12:04<andythenorth>for randomising trains-per-game purposes
12:04<andythenorth>(might want to save it in the savegame) :P
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12:06<Supercheese>"Parameter 1: Please input a random number between 0 and XXXX" :P
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12:10*andythenorth has considered random-on-compile before...but that would be evil :P
12:21<Miauw>Why did that train get stuck
12:23<Miauw>Unelectrified piece of rail...
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12:41<Miauw>I have triggered a bussapocalypse.
12:41<Miauw>I made about 50 busses and released them all at once.
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12:45<frosch123>just also release a train
12:48<V453000>nobody uses trains
12:51<@peter1138>Welease Woger!
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13:12<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> I think Eddi|zuHause had a patch for that :D <--
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14:22<DanMacK>Hey a;;
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14:22<DanMacK>all even
14:22<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
14:22<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 2 hours, 11 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: * andythenorth has considered random-on-compile before...but that would be evil :P
14:54<@Alberth>V453000: nuts 0.5.5, monorail Brickwalker is advertised as running 211km/h, iron ore train does only 128km/h even when empty
14:54<@Alberth>is that correct?
14:54<V453000>read the info again :)
14:55<V453000>it is probably correct
14:55<@Alberth>oh! sorry
14:55<V453000>glad you asked :)
14:56<@Alberth>hmm, 2 engines should then run faster
14:56<V453000>same speed
14:56<V453000>but generally with chameleons using multiple engines is very convenient
14:57<V453000>I as you only lose 14t capacity per each added
14:57<V453000>and the power/TE is inscreasing a lot :)
14:57<@Alberth>but there is one less added unit :)
14:58<@Alberth>ok, will make shorter trains :)
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15:00<andythenorth>DanMacK: LO
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15:02<DanMacK>HEY! lol
15:02<@Alberth>V453000: multiple engines do not seem very needed, they reach top-speed quite quickly
15:02<V453000>I think it is worht multiplying even with 2 tile trains
15:03<V453000>what length do you use
15:03<@Alberth>perhaps my tracks are not busy enough :)
15:04<V453000>128kmh is probably already slow enough to be just fine with the low power
15:04<V453000>I personally used 5 tile trains many times and they were ~ok with 1 engine too
15:05<V453000>it depends a lot on the general plan you have
15:05<V453000>I often do rail strong -> chameleon -> slugs
15:05<V453000>which obviously means you want 1 engine per trains since slugs
15:06<@Alberth>compared with the current strong engines it is a nice improvement, but I wanted more speed improvement than an additional 20km/h :)
15:06<V453000>but if I plan to focus on chameleons, 2 engines cost you almost nothing and add a lot
15:06<@Alberth>oh, you plan that far ahead :)
15:06<V453000>depends, if your network has problems at stations, chameleons can hurt as they have 7 loading stages
15:07<V453000>sure, I almost always know in the start of the game which engines I will use ... which is essential to know for picking the right train length, network type, and amount of engines
15:08<V453000>if I intend to use superstrong, I obviously wont bother with 2nd engine even if my trains are 10 tiles long
15:08<@Alberth>nah, long distance cargo-dist, with the main fun being the need to distribute stuff at the accepting end :)
15:09<V453000>"cargodist" isnt defining a network, any train can be used with that specification :P
15:09<V453000>but long-distance generally means monorail is best
15:09<V453000>(monorail fast / intercity)
15:09<V453000>- but you cannot have too many junctions that way, as both of them require long curves
15:10<V453000>or well you can but .. :)
15:14<@Alberth> Transport, 1963-11-24.sav and it has a weird fish in case you cannot get it
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15:26<V453000>Alberth: flat much? :P
15:27<@Alberth>temperate is flat for me :)
15:28<V453000>this isnt flat, this is FLAT :D
15:28<V453000>bloody dutch :)
15:29<V453000>either way, I think majority of your network would be okay with rail medium
15:29<V453000>I wouldnt expect chameleons to have any strong performance with this setup
15:30<V453000>chameleons are useful in 2 scenarios for cargo trains: 1. for short trains, absolutely best for 2 tile trains, or 2. longer trains - but when they can use the very short curve resulting from the speed reduction, and monorail bonus
15:31<V453000>but then still, with the traffic you have, you can probably use anything
15:31<V453000>ships could have considerable capacity but would spend ages loading
15:32<@Alberth>yeah, you can even run different length trains at the monorail without getting trains waiting on each other
15:33<V453000>still, you should make a lot of rails everywhere and use slugs for the short curve + awesomeness :P
15:34<V453000>on another note, I am thinking about redrawing the ship signals, they arent quite too nice
15:35<@Alberth>no slugs yet :)
15:35<@Alberth>I have a hard time understanding front and back on those signals
15:36<V453000>they didnt end up the most fortunate way :)
15:36<V453000>slugs are 2016 for animal express, 2070 for the basic version and 2099 for the ultimate rainbow ones :P takes time
15:38<@Alberth>oh, that's ok, having lots of fun with current trains :)
15:39<V453000>I think updating to 0.5.8 should be safe btw
15:40<V453000>but most of the changes since 0.5.5 are regarding rainbow slugs, rest is rather minor
15:40<V453000>so unless you intend to use those, no real reason to update
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15:42<@Alberth>just like andy, you make too many new releases for me to keep up :)
15:43<V453000>well, if it was all in one big release, it would be even harder to keep up :P
15:50<V453000>anyway, good night :P
15:50<V453000>PS there are FIVE more trains coming XD
15:53<@Alberth>gn, V
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 09 00:00:12 2013