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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-09-12

---Logopened Thu Sep 12 00:00:16 2013
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01:53<dihedral>good morning
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03:46<@planetmaker>moin
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04:17<dihedral>planet o/ maker
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04:33<@peter1138>Silly Windows. I turned my network printer on, and Windows says "Yay you have an HP LaserJet 5N at this IP, now pick a driver from this list..."
04:33<@peter1138>List does not contain model...
04:35<V453000>I blame linux
04:35<@peter1138>And HP's site, after filling in the fields to download the driver, says... Install the driver included in Windows 7. Right.
04:36<@peter1138>Yeah, in Linux it would be easy.
04:41<@peter1138>And after all that, the print out is fucked anyway :-(
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05:13<@peter1138>Hmm, yes, random play... normal music on at regular volume, go upstairs to deal with matters... LOUDEST THRASH HEAVY METAL plays and I can't do a thing about it... :p
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>at least you're entertaining the neighbours :)
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06:09<__ln__>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2013/09/11/frog-blasts-off-with-recent-nasa-rocket/
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08:56<DanMacK>Hey all
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09:03<@planetmaker>hey DanMacK :-)
09:08<roboboy>hey DanMacK
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09:48<DanMacK>Hey all
09:49-!-Pikka [~Octomom@d110-32-13-206.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
09:49<DanMacK>Hey hey
09:51<Pikka>hello
09:52<smallfly>hey :)
09:53<@planetmaker>o/
09:53<@planetmaker>the return of the Pikka
09:53<Pikka>doesn't it
10:07<@peter1138>It doesn't.
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10:08<__ln__>you'dn't say that
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10:18<DanMacK_>stupid server
10:20<@peter1138>Hmm, I'm sure I had a patch to only get sprites for vehicles on screen...
10:20<@peter1138>Maybe it was slower...
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10:25<LordAro>/o Zuu
10:25<Zuu>Hello
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10:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25759 /trunk/src (goal_gui.cpp story_gui.cpp) (2013-09-12 14:35:52 UTC)
10:35<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r25369): Set the owner flag of the goal and story windows
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10:36<andythenorth>if I want train speed to be unlimited in nml, what value do I set for speed?
10:37<@peter1138>There is no unlimited.
10:37<V453000>unlimited train speed? :D
10:37<V453000>65k iz max
10:37*andythenorth rephrases
10:38<andythenorth>if I want wagons to have no speed limit, what value do I set for speed in nml?
10:38<V453000>none
10:38<V453000>you just dont set speed for wagons
10:39<andythenorth>hrm
10:40<V453000>rm rm, please dont tell me you want your wagons to have speed limits
10:41<andythenorth>what's wrong with it?
10:41<@peter1138>It doesn't fit his style of play, therefore it's worthless.
10:41<V453000>about everything? :D
10:44<Pikka>mm, Wogan speed limits.
10:45<@peter1138>Terry?
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10:47<andythenorth>lo pokka
10:47<andythenorth>@seen Pikka
10:47<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Pikka was last seen in #openttd 2 minutes and 32 seconds ago: <Pikka> mm, Wogan speed limits.
10:47<andythenorth>ho ho he's here
10:47<Pikka>who is?
10:47<andythenorth>how is BNE?
10:47<Pikka>bne is fab
10:47<andythenorth>are you a working man again?
10:48<Pikka>in theory!
10:48<Pikka>but not an earning man
10:48<Pikka>novel writing. going quite well.
10:49<Pikka>hoping to have it vaguely done-ish by the end of the year. then I might go and get a job for a while to refill the coffers.
10:51<andythenorth>ho that's pretty awesome
10:51<andythenorth>everyone has a book inside them
10:51*andythenorth wrote about 75k words of a bad novel 15 years ago
10:51<andythenorth>deleted it
10:51<andythenorth>what's it about? o_O
10:51<Pikka>oop
10:52<Pikka>it's a political thriller set in queensland in the 1880s. railways are tangentially involved.
10:54<andythenorth>\o/
10:54<V453000>xd
10:55<V453000>I write fictional horrors, digital rails very involved :P
10:57<andythenorth>V453000: so I ask how to remove speed limits, and you think I"m adding them...? :D
10:57*planetmaker only wrote a few hundret words of bad poetry
10:58*andythenorth wrote 30k lines of nfo :P
11:01<V453000>I WAS AFRAID andythenorth :P
11:01<V453000>omg nfo :)
11:01<Pikka>andythenorth, limit every wagon to 20km/h
11:01<andythenorth>ok
11:02<Pikka>that'll learn 'em
11:02<@peter1138>DBSetXL with early wagons :D
11:02<andythenorth>Pikka: so no newgrfs for you?
11:02<Pikka>well
11:02<Pikka>I reactivated the dreaded facebook the other day, and Dan started talking to me about IH
11:02<Pikka>soo... perhaps newgrfs :)
11:03<@peter1138>IH?
11:03<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/v5003-93/docs/html/get_started.html
11:03<Pikka>I haven't played openttd for ages though, I'll have to have a go with cargodist and everything.
11:03<andythenorth>the docs are not finished yet :P
11:04<@peter1138>OpenTTD... play... that'll be novel.
11:04<andythenorth>write a play
11:04<juzza1>Zuu: can you help me a bit with musa? im trying to run it on windows, but getting "No magic header" after it starts packaging the files
11:04<juzza1>im giving it four files, changelog, the grf itself, and two readme files
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11:07<Zuu>That error is raised by grfid.py when the .grf file doesn't confirm to some standard required.
11:07<Zuu>I know close to zero about NewGRFs so I can't tell if there is a bug in grfid.py or if your input data is malformated.
11:08<Zuu>But the error is caused by your .grf file not complying with a check in musa.
11:08<Zuu>How did you create your .grf file?
11:09<juzza1>using the compiler at https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/job/finnishtrainset/ (from nml source, using makefile)
11:10<juzza1>(and nmlc)
11:10<Zuu>This is the python code that triggers the error: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2609/
11:12<Zuu>Someone who knows NML/nfo/NewGRFs better than me will need to look at that python code to see if its broken with respect to recent nmlc.
11:13<@planetmaker>well... nmlc should not create invalid NewGRFs...
11:14<Zuu>I mean, there may be a header version 3 that was created the last months or so ...
11:14<@planetmaker>at least not invalid enough that openttd barfs on it :D
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11:20<roboboy>gnight peoples
11:20<@Rubidium>already? ;)
11:20<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I need another push by you :-P
11:20<@Rubidium>it's only like the middle of the night over there, right?
11:21<@Rubidium>oh andythenorth...
11:21<Pikka>1:20am, Rubidium
11:21<@Rubidium>andythenorth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c7bISLhVl8 (Iron Horse anthem?)
11:21<andythenorth>Rubidium: could be :)
11:21<andythenorth>planetmaker: ??
11:22<@planetmaker>built failed. Due to ... messed-up post-built script on CF. And I want to check the modification I made ;-)
11:22<@planetmaker>well. built didn't fail. Publishing did
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11:25<andythenorth>any specific project?
11:25<andythenorth>about to push IH
11:25<andythenorth>lo DanMacK
11:25<DanMacK>Hey all
11:25<DanMacK>Hey andy
11:26<@planetmaker>nah, any is fine :-)
11:26<@planetmaker>actually I totally have the option to manually trigger builds :D
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11:34<andythenorth>DanMacK: remind me, 2 generations of wagons, then maglev?
11:34<andythenorth>or 3 generations?
11:35<DanMacK>3 if you include the "early" set, but the base set has 2
11:35<andythenorth>hmm
11:35<andythenorth>ok
11:35<andythenorth>it's all in one codebase, so let's say 3
11:36<andythenorth>so gen 1 and gen 2 have speed limits in that case, and gen 3 is unlimited?
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11:41<DanMacK>Gen 3 is Maglev?
11:41<andythenorth>gen 0 for early? :P
11:42<andythenorth>gen -1 :D
11:42<andythenorth>I'll leave it alone for now
11:42<DanMacK>yeah that works, because the "early" I was thinking a separate grf
11:42<andythenorth>it would probably all be in one codebase, just generate multiple grfs from it
11:42<andythenorth>remind me about gen_0 another time :P
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12:29<Djohaal>ok
12:29<Djohaal>how do I disable the stock vehicles from openGFX?
12:29<Djohaal>I'm getting some issues with packs such as aviators airplanes, because then I have like the concorde and the yate haugan
12:30<Pinkbeast>Huh. Normally I expect the stock vehicles to be disabled by default if a vehicle GRF is loaded...
12:31<Djohaal>welp I'm getting some weirdness then, duplicate airplanes and ships (I have FISH pack too, got two MPS passenger haulers)
12:32<Djohaal>I'm on a nightly build, could that be the cause?
12:32<Pinkbeast>Djohaal: Worth loading the same GRFs into a release and seeing what happens.
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12:33<Djohaal>yup duplicates
12:33<Djohaal>yate haugan AND concorde
12:34<Djohaal>and two MPS pax ferries
12:38<Pinkbeast>Djohaal: This is out of my depth. I think disabling default vehicles is a function of the newgrf, but... dunno guv
12:49<juzza1>it should be. some other grf might be forcing them on, though
12:49<juzza1>or wait... that shouldn't happen
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12:50<juzza1>yep, disregard what i said
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13:09<Bad_Brett>\o/
13:12<DanMacK>hey Brett
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13:17<Bad_Brett>how's it going?
13:19<DanMacK>not bad, on my way out :P
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25760 trunk/src/lang/indonesian.txt (2013-09-12 17:45:08 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 2 changes by UseYourIllusion
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17:23<Djohaal>hmm
17:23<Djohaal>advice for balancing a game without inflation?
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17:24<Supercheese>infrastructure maintenance?
17:25<Djohaal>hmm
17:25<Djohaal>could try that
17:25<Supercheese>I think it was written to fill that niche, even
17:25<Supercheese>OTTD inflation mechanic is notoriously broken
17:31<Djohaal>makes sense
17:32<Djohaal>plus I can toggle it in and out
17:32<@Rubidium>Supercheese: how is it notoriously broken?
17:32-!-roadt_ [~roadt@60.168.95.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:33<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=64414#p1066793
17:33<Supercheese>(and the rest of that thread)
17:35<@Rubidium>maybe your sarcasm detector isn't working ;)
17:36<Bad_Brett>hmm... i don't really like stuff like super high inflation, higher taxes, maintainance cost etc. those are just simple penalties for doing too good
17:36<Supercheese>Well, pikka's posts, then
17:36<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=64414#p1066875
17:37<Bad_Brett>i would like to see a patch where the transport system needs constant tweaking instead
17:38<@Rubidium>Supercheese: that problem also happens with inflation disabled
17:39<@Rubidium>if I start in 1850, then by the time I'm in 1920 I have such a load of money that the high "initial" prices for vehicles to make a game in 1920 relatively hard to start are obnoxiously cheap
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17:39<@Rubidium>but you can't increase the prices, because then you can't build them when you start in 1920
17:39<Supercheese>Well, wasn't infra maintenance designed to counter the "load of money" syndrome?
17:41<@Rubidium>it doesn't solve that problem
17:41<@Rubidium>it makes it marginally harder to reach
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17:43<Supercheese>can't grfs alter maintenance costs? There could be more room for "balancing" there
17:43<Djohaal>Bad_Brett: it's just it is too easy for me
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17:44<Djohaal>seems like the other players in my server are doing fine with that difficulty. but I am a seasoned simutrans player, so yeah quite economic-savvy
17:44<Bad_Brett>i agree 100%
17:44<Supercheese>I don't recall see any grf specifically designed to alter maintenance costs, although Av8 changes airports'
17:44<Supercheese>seeing*
17:44<@Rubidium>Supercheese: they can... but they can't scale the amount based on the amount of money a company has
17:45<Bad_Brett>my point is that it's a very common game design mistake to penalize players for doing to well
17:45<Bad_Brett>there are other, better ways to make a game hard
17:45<@Rubidium>so, either you make it so huge that you can't get started, or it isn't high enough to prevent (eventual) infinite amounts of money
17:45<Djohaal>simutrans maanged to figure out a difficulty solution that is universally difficult
17:45<Djohaal>even if you are doing quite well a badly set up line can bring you ruin
17:46<Djohaal>their early game is a bit more difficult than average, but the game keeps pressure troughout most of the duration
17:46<oskari89>You can ruin yourself by bad line design, by using basecosts
17:46<Bad_Brett>no, you can't
17:46<oskari89>And raising the rail/road/etc maintenance
17:46<Bad_Brett>only in the beginning
17:47<Bad_Brett>rail maintenance sounds good though
17:47<oskari89>Try it :P
17:47<Bad_Brett>i will
17:47<oskari89>Raise it 128x, you will notice
17:48<oskari89>Or maybe 64x for beginning
17:48<oskari89>It will eat your profits efficently if you build a large network with just few trains
17:49<Djohaal>is basecost universally compatible?
17:49<Bad_Brett>yeah, that doesn't sound bad at all
17:49<Djohaal>because I use a huge mish-mash of GRFs
17:49<oskari89>Basecost is universally compatible, grab it from BaNaNas
17:50<Bad_Brett>the thing about rail maintenance is that it doesn't punish you just because you're rich
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17:50<oskari89>Yeah, it punishes you if you have too small or too large network
17:50<Bad_Brett>yes
17:50<oskari89>With too much or too less trains
17:51<Bad_Brett>and i can imagine that gridlocks can really hurt the business
17:51<oskari89>Yeah, they _do_ bring down profits if you have a main line running nearly everything or so
17:51<oskari89>Few times that has appened
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17:51<oskari89>*happened
17:53<Bad_Brett>i have to try it then
17:53<oskari89>Try it with different cost factors
17:53<Bad_Brett>yeah
17:53<Bad_Brett>i'm looking for good ways to make my scenario more challenging
17:53<oskari89>Train running cost factor is one way too
17:54<Bad_Brett>yeah
17:54<Bad_Brett>another good thing about about rail maintenence
17:54<Bad_Brett>is that rivers can become quite important
17:55<Bad_Brett>i really like this idea
18:01<oskari89>Rubidium: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=63119&p=1096338#p1096338
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19:08<Eddi|zuHause>am i stupid or blind or is MB just talking in too riddly riddles?
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