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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-09-18

---Logopened Wed Sep 18 00:00:25 2013
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01:50<matkum>good morning, faboulous people
01:51<matkum>as a rookie with openttd, I have a question
01:52<matkum>so, if a factory produces 100 units of goods, how many carts should I purchase for transporting goods so it would be optimized
01:53<matkum>50%, 70%, 20% of the total capacity?
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01:53<Supercheese>that depends on many factors
01:53<Supercheese>size of wagons, station cargo rating
01:53<Supercheese>wagon loading speed
01:53<V453000>doesnt matter on anything, just use as many trains as you need, regardless their size
01:54<Supercheese>generally, try to have one train loading all the time, and then if you can manage to get things such that once the loading train gets a full load, another empty train comes immediately to take its place
01:54<matkum>so it does not matter that if I transport the whole 100 units per time
01:54<Supercheese>that's the "best"
01:54<Supercheese>but of course things are rarely, if ever, that steady-state
01:55<matkum>okay. I will try that. thanks guys
01:56<V453000>you cant have 100% in long term
01:56<V453000>~93% is max
01:56<V453000>unless you autorenew your trains every year or so? :d
01:57<Supercheese>or use improve station rating algorithms
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01:57<matkum>oh, is there autorenew feature as well? cool
01:57<V453000>well autorenew just buys the same model just to make it "new"
01:58<V453000>not really useful for anything except increasing station ratings for the first year or two
01:59<AndreasB>Do you have anything useful that can help me not going to work? :pp
01:59-!-zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has joined #openttd
01:59<AndreasB>"Sorry, train broke down, cant come to work today"
02:00<matkum>dog ate homework
02:00<matkum>classic
02:00<AndreasB>-.- somehow I dont think that helps at work
02:06<AndreasB>Does anyone know how I can get better quality stuff in the game? When I zoom in my eyes cry for help
02:06<AndreasB>I tried looking at "how to play with 32 bp" thingie, but that didnt help at all
02:06<matkum>like, hd-material?
02:06<AndreasB>like hd-textures
02:07<matkum>ttd in hd, would be cool, indeed
02:07<AndreasB>doesnt have to be hd, just better than what it is now
02:07<AndreasB>which I think is 8bps
02:08<AndreasB>grainy as .. toast
02:16<maddy_>AndreasB: maybe something is wrong with your eyes? I thought openttd has pretty good looking graphics :)
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02:27<AndreasB>o.O
02:28<AndreasB>So you claim zooming all the way in gives -good- graphics?
02:28<matkum>AndreasB: i tried zooming. it looks grainy and I agree with you that the graphics should be more detailed
02:28<maddy_>no, actually, I just don't use those extra zoom-in levels at all, I play at the 'default' zoom where things still look good
02:29<AndreasB>lol
02:29<V453000>not like the extra zoom levels are particularly useful
02:29<maddy_>if you want to zoom in really close, then you should probably use the 32bpp base graphics set
02:29<AndreasB>I tried
02:29-!-TomyLobo [~foo@91-65-113-111-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: Standby mode...]
02:29<AndreasB>:(
02:30<Supercheese>Have you downloaded zBase?
02:30<AndreasB>anyways, off to work
02:30<AndreasB>zbase wasnt up for download
02:30<AndreasB>link i s broken
02:30<Supercheese>In the game
02:30<Supercheese>Content Download -> zBase
02:31<Supercheese>Check Online Content, rather
02:31<Supercheese>sort by name -> bottom of list
02:33<AndreasB>dang that dl is slow
02:33<AndreasB>like 1-2 MB/s
02:34<Supercheese>hah, slow?
02:34<AndreasB>yes
02:34<Supercheese>2 Megabytes per second is fast in my book
02:34<AndreasB>I downloaded BF3 in origin at 63 MB/s
02:34<Supercheese>good lord
02:34<Supercheese>what connection do you have?
02:34<AndreasB>1000mbit fiber
02:34<Supercheese>@__@
02:35-!-Zuu [~Zuu@sip.sdrf.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:36<AndreasB>NOW THATS different!
02:36<AndreasB>http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/2974208198
02:36<AndreasB>slow now :|
02:36<AndreasB>anyways, bbl, work time :D
02:36-!-tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has quit []
02:43<Supercheese>http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/2974216744
02:43*Supercheese cries.
02:46<__ln__>better than what i have
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03:26<Supercheese>'night
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04:15<dihedral>greetings
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04:22<@planetmaker>o/
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05:24<AndreasB>__ln__: What do you have?
05:25<__ln__>around 16 / 0.8
05:27<AndreasB>o.O
05:27<AndreasB>:(
05:36<AndreasB>thats just sad
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06:00<@peter1138>Oh for god's sake...
06:00-!-Midnightmyth [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #openttd
06:03<LordAro>?
06:05<@peter1138>Excess packaging. http://imgur.com/4rLfOw1
06:14<LordAro>indeed
06:15<@peter1138>Now... should I get an AeroPress?
06:42-!-tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd
06:46<oskari89>http://www.gtchannel.com/blog/nissan-z-development-officially-starts
06:47<oskari89>Someone has copied some shapes from Aston Martini in that case
06:47<oskari89>*Aston Martin :P
06:51<LordAro>er, yes
06:51<LordAro>also ford: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dUMb1CxmPjo/UHyDAWu_CAI/AAAAAAAJjzE/WwL13chZg10/s1600/aston-martin_ford-2013-fusion-mondeo-1--.jpg
06:52<LordAro>i think aston martin needs to find themselves some lawyers
07:06<@peter1138>One black car looks similar to another black car? Okay.
07:07<LordAro>the grill, specifically
07:08<@peter1138>Yeah, looks similar to a Mini.
07:28<AndreasB>nana....naaaiii (Watching videos of Niall Horan is bad.. )
07:33<maddy_>AndreasB: I'll take your word for it
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07:56<MNIM>hah
07:56<MNIM>I was wondering, why is that aston martin wearing a ford badge?
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08:08<AndreasB>maddy_: I keep going around saying "nana....Naaiii"
08:08<AndreasB>And other strange sounds.. Life would be boring without strange sounds
08:14<LordAro>MNIM: someone understands! :p
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08:21<maddy_>AndreasB: yes, that is enough information for me about that subject, so I'll have to take your word for it, was my point
08:21<AndreasB>Ah :D
08:21<AndreasB>You dont like One Direction?
08:21<maddy_>I mean, I don't know who he or she is, and don't want to know based on what I've heard so far, so I don't want to google it up
08:23<maddy_>because I tend to have a bad habit of googling everything up that I haven't heard about
08:23<AndreasB>o.O But Niall Horan is hot :D :P
08:23<AndreasB>Worth googling.
08:24<@peter1138>Nah, he looks like a little boy.
08:24<LordAro>AndreasB: just wondering, how old are you?
08:24<AndreasB>27
08:25<__ln__>years or months?
08:25<AndreasB>HAHA years
08:25<LordAro>^^
08:25<AndreasB>Well, at least on paper
08:25<AndreasB>peter1138: You must be looking at an old picture
08:26<@peter1138>Whatever appeared on Google images.
08:26<AndreasB>http://bestwallpaperhd.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/niall-horan-2013-wallpaper.png
08:26<LordAro>i am NOT having that link in my history
08:26<@peter1138>Yup, little boy.
08:26<AndreasB>Look 20 to me
08:26<@peter1138>Exactlky.
08:27<AndreasB>LordAro: Haha
08:27<maddy_>still not looking it up :) and not clicking on that link
08:27<AndreasB>peter1138: Whats wrong with 20yo's?`
08:27<@peter1138>One, I'm 35.
08:27<AndreasB>Im still w aiting for a good reason
08:27<@peter1138>Two, I'm not really into men.
08:28<V453000>looks like 20 yo faggot or 13 yo boyie
08:28<V453000>peter1138 is right
08:28-!-ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd
08:28<AndreasB>peter1138: Thats a good point
08:28<AndreasB>But even as a straight man, you have to admit that hes above average
08:28<V453000>4% is above average
08:29<AndreasB>Niall is above average
08:29<AndreasB>[14:28:23] <V453000> looks like 20 yo faggot
08:29<AndreasB>I wish
08:29<V453000>I dont
08:29<AndreasB>Why? Do you care what sexual orientation other people have?
08:30-!-DanMacK [~453f332b@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
08:30<LordAro>AndreasB: now i'm confused. what gender are you?
08:30<@peter1138>AndreasB, well, homophobic men always seem to think a homosexual man is going to want to rape them... stupid.
08:30<DanMacK>Hey all
08:30<LordAro>run away while you still can DanMacK :)
08:30<@peter1138>Why? The GPL argument stopped hours ago.
08:31<DanMacK>lmao yeah...
08:31-!-Pensacola [~quassel@178-85-11-66.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:31<DanMacK>heh, I was there for a bit of that
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08:31<@peter1138>LordAro, Andreas is a male name, so...
08:31<V453000>I dont understand licenses for shit after yesterday
08:32-!-Pensacola [~quassel@178-85-11-66.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #openttd
08:32<DanMacK>It's confusing on the best day
08:32<V453000>everybody is what they want on the internet, sac is probably male too
08:32<juzza1>me neither
08:32<@peter1138>Most people are just douches.
08:32<V453000>point
08:33<LordAro>am i? :3
08:33<@peter1138>:)
08:35<@peter1138>Not that I'm aware of, yet :p
08:36<LordAro>yayz :)
08:37*LordAro feels loved ^^
08:37<LordAro>:P
08:39<maddy_>if you have to ask if you're a douche or not, doesn't that make you dangerously close to being one?
08:43<AndreasB>[14:30:28] <@peter1138> AndreasB, well, homophobic men always seem to think a homosexual man is going to want to rape them... stupid.
08:43<AndreasB>If he looks like Niall he better run :D
08:43<AndreasB>And yes, Andreas is a boys name
08:44<maddy_>AndreasB: so you're gay or bi then? and wanted to share that with us?
08:44<AndreasB>My name is NOT Andrea :P
08:44<AndreasB>I'm myself :D
08:44<AndreasB>I'm me, are you you?
08:44<maddy_>I hope so :)
08:44<AndreasB>Me too
08:44<AndreasB>Why do I have to put myself in a .. "box" ?
08:45<AndreasB>If the question is "Can you find a boy attractive" then the answer is yes
08:45<AndreasB>The problem with English language is that you only have one word for bisexual
08:45-!-MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:45<AndreasB>while we in Norwegian (According to me atleast) have two.
08:46<AndreasB>One to define who you can fall in love with, and one to define the sexual part
08:46<maddy_>people in general like to categorize things, including other people...put them in neatly defined boxes with neat little labels
08:46<AndreasB>And in my opinion sexuality is more complicated than "yes/no"
08:47<AndreasB>Some people tend to get mad at me when I can say that something is gay
08:47*roboboy goes to have a look at this GPL arguement
08:47<AndreasB>Boys watching my little pony for example is pretty gay
08:47<AndreasB>That doesnt mean that I am saying that you have to watch it if one is gay
08:47<AndreasB>But, this has nothing to do with openttd, so imma shut up now
08:48<maddy_>you sure? could be extremely important for the next openttd release..
08:48<AndreasB>haha
08:48<AndreasB>I doubt that
08:49<AndreasB>I find openttd confusing
08:49<AndreasB>Whenever I start a game I have no idea what to do
08:50<AndreasB>Can a train "line" be too long? Is there an optimal length for length->Payment ratio?
08:51<blathijs>roboboy: Rumour goes you occasionally play with the DOS build of OpenTTD, is that true?
08:51<juzza1>depends on the newgrf (answer is no)
08:51<@planetmaker>yes. yes. check the payment graphs. And figure it out
08:51<AndreasB>payment graphs?
08:51<juzza1>per-newgrf, maybe
08:51<roboboy>I do ocasionaly. I even wrote the article on the Wiki about setting it up.
08:52<@planetmaker>yes, payment graphcs.
08:52<blathijs>roboboy: If so, could you check to see if things still work with this patch? http://www.stderr.nl/static/tmp/openttd-licensing/0001-Change-DOS-Put-cwsdpmi-and-exe2coff-files-in-subdire.patch
08:52<AndreasB>looking
08:52<@peter1138>I'm not too fussed about labels, it's when labels are used to persecute...
08:52<AndreasB>is it days * rate ?
08:52-!-alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has joined #openttd
08:52<@peter1138>(Damn that V453000 throwing around that f-word)
08:53<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics
08:53<AndreasB>thanks
08:53<@peter1138>Also damn my internet connection for being so laggy right now :S
08:53<blathijs>roboboy: (you might need a git checkout and "git am" to apply that patch, since it contains a number of renamed files that a regular patch probably won't pick up)
08:54<roboboy>well I never got DOS compilation working. I think the build I had was buit by Rubidium
08:54<blathijs>roboboy: Ah, right. Never mind, then :_)
08:54<blathijs>s/_/-/
08:55<roboboy>Iv'e book marked it incase I do get it working
08:56<blathijs>roboboy: I'll probably commit that today or tomorrow anyway :-)
08:57<roboboy>ok. If someone wants to build it for me, then I will get my DOS machine running again.
08:58<roboboy>I think FreeDOS comes with all the extras I mentioned on the wiki anyway
08:59<roboboy>I should set it up regardless to test TTDPatch 2.5's nearly final build before it is released as a Stable :P
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>wait... TTDPatch stable? :p
09:05<V453000>peter1138: FUCK what?
09:06<@peter1138>Not that one.
09:07<roboboy>99% of known bugs are fixed in the 2.5 branch of TTDPatch and patchman has agreed to release it as a stable when the last bug is fixed.
09:07<V453000>f-word = realism?
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>V453000 arguing for "realism" would be a first :p
09:10<blathijs>roboboy: Quick, submit more bugs! ;-P
09:10<roboboy>there is always 2.6 for that
09:11<@peter1138>Patchman's alive?
09:11<AndreasB>TTDPatch?
09:11<AndreasB>why not just incorporate it into openttd?
09:11<roboboy>yeah, he is alive if only by email once in a while
09:12<roboboy>because I want to play TTD and not OpenTTD, OpenTTD no longer feels like TTD in my opinion while TTDPatch still does and I want to play TTD
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09:14<DanMacK>OpenTTD in my opinion is more like TTD2 at this point
09:14<AndreasB>is..
09:14<AndreasB>TTDPatch something for TTD or for openttd also?
09:14<DanMacK>only TTD
09:14<AndreasB>ah
09:14<AndreasB>then I get it
09:14<DanMacK>TTDP is pre-OTTD
09:14<AndreasB>ahh
09:15<roboboy>We may not have NewGRF's without it
09:15<juzza1>TTDP is what started this madness
09:15<DanMacK>heh, yeah
09:15<roboboy>I suspect OpenTTD would have gone a different route that TTDP couldn't take
09:16<roboboy>well I should go to bed
09:16<AndreasB>how come openttd doesnt break any copyright rules?
09:16<DanMacK>it did
09:16<AndreasB>Isnt it basicly the same thing?
09:17<DanMacK>oh shit... lol Close that can of worms
09:17<roboboy>long story short no one realy knows if it did or didn't
09:17<DanMacK>it might in some areas, not in others
09:18<AndreasB>But does it use any TTD code? o.O
09:18<roboboy>the original work was done behind closed doors and then made Open Source once it ran. It suddenly appeared out of nowhere in the TT-Forums admin's inbox one day
09:18<AndreasB>lol
09:18<roboboy>that's my understanding of how it happened
09:19<roboboy>DanMacK, probably knows more as he was arround this community before I found it
09:20<roboboy>gnight peoples
09:22<AndreasB>whaa?
09:22<AndreasB>gnight?
09:22<AndreasB>its 3pm here
09:22<DanMacK>heh, Ive been here awhile for sure
09:22<@planetmaker>from my understanding, what the original author did was legal at least in the place he did it
09:23<DanMacK>He decoded it and rewrote it in C AFAIK
09:23<@planetmaker>people tend to forget that legislation differs between countries
09:24<@planetmaker>and that legislation changed quite a bit, too
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think anybody here actually checked swedish law...
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>basically, we all take his word for it
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>and so far nobody has sued, so no court has told otherwise
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09:41<AndreasB>OpenTTD is swedish ? :D
09:41<AndreasB>Weird how most players are either polish or russian :S
09:43<@planetmaker>openttd is neither Swedish nor Russian nor Polish.
09:43<@planetmaker>nor would I believe that "most players" are Russian or Polish (though both countries have strong communities)
09:44<AndreasB>Most players I see are polish or russian
09:44<AndreasB>And I see ~0 scandinavian players
09:44<AndreasB>How does the player list work? Are there a lot of servers not listed?
09:44<AndreasB>server list*
09:44<@planetmaker>that's different. I see scandinavian people daily here
09:44<AndreasB>in-game?
09:45<@planetmaker>sometimes. I play the meta game in this channel ;-)
09:45<@planetmaker>mostly
09:45<AndreasB>hah
09:46<@planetmaker>and at the last two OpenTTD meetings we had more than 10% Scandinavians. But 0% Russians and Polish participants ;-)
09:46<AndreasB>hmm
09:47<@planetmaker>and it's hard to judge the 10000s of players who never show up anywhere but just play :-)
09:47<AndreasB>Those are wannabes
09:47<AndreasB>real players go multiplayer
09:48<@planetmaker>http://stats.openttd.org/ctry_usage_201308.png
09:48<AndreasB>oh
09:48<AndreasB>2% russian lol
09:48<AndreasB>I would count as unresolved :D
09:48<AndreasB>Does it check based on reverse host?
09:48<AndreasB>Or IP whois block?
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09:49<Xaroth|Work>what's even more disturbing
09:49<AndreasB>hm?
09:49<@planetmaker>I'd say you'd count as "Norwegian"
09:49<Xaroth|Work>0.31% of visitors searched http://www.openttd.org/ to get to the site
09:50<AndreasB>AndreasB is andreas@80.64.200.25
09:50<AndreasB>really?
09:50<AndreasB>sure bout that?
09:50<AndreasB>I count as .25
09:50<Xaroth|Work>an ip is not a TLD
09:51<Xaroth|Work>but that range's rdns is covered by brisner.no
09:51<Xaroth|Work>so i agree with planetmaker
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09:54<LordAro>bash wizards! a problem for you: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2640/
09:55<Xaroth|Work>LordAro: regexp on \d.\d(optional .\d)
09:55<Xaroth|Work>?
09:55<LordAro>you're going to have to be more explicit than that :p (i'm not very good at bash/regex)
09:56<SpComb>grep --only-matching
09:56<Xaroth|Work>(\d\.\d(\.\d)?)
09:57<Xaroth|Work>wait, that doesn't reeaally work
09:57<SpComb>you need some + in there
09:57<Xaroth|Work>(\d+\.\d+(\.\d+)?)
09:57<Xaroth|Work>aye
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09:57<AndreasB>Xaroth: Never said it was.
09:57<Xaroth|Work>will match any <digit(s)>.<digit(s)>[.<digit(s)>]
09:58<Xaroth|Work>AndreasB: 15:50 < AndreasB> I count as .25
09:58<Xaroth|Work>that makes the assumption that everything after the @ is a hostname
09:58<Xaroth|Work>which is false
09:58<AndreasB>*facepalm*
09:58<LordAro>Xaroth|Work: umm, you sure? i'm getting no output
09:58<AndreasB>It was an joke
09:58<AndreasB>I dont use rdns
09:58<AndreasB>GeoIP should never be done based on rnds
09:58<Xaroth|Work>no, but people do it by rdns ;)
09:59<AndreasB>bcountry: NO
09:59<AndreasB>as described in the IP block
09:59<AndreasB>whois info
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10:00<Xaroth|Work>LordAro: not sure how to do that with grep
10:00<LordAro>/o Zuu
10:00<LordAro>Xaroth|Work: what would you use then? ;p
10:01<Zuu>hello
10:01<@planetmaker>hail thee, fellow meta player from Scandinavia ;-)
10:02<Zuu>:-)
10:03<@planetmaker>oh, you don't have a "bahnhof" address anymore :D
10:03<Zuu>not for a while
10:04<@planetmaker>:-)
10:04<Zuu>I may use them as ISP again, but where I am at the moment they aren't available.
10:04<@planetmaker>not like I keep track of it
10:04<@planetmaker>but we had this topic about hostnames just now :-)
10:04<Zuu>oh
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10:12<LordAro>"grep --only-matching '[0-9]\+\.[0-9]\+\(\.[0-9]\+\)\?'" <-- does that seem like an excessive number of backslashes to anyone else?
10:13<@planetmaker>not to me
10:13<Xaroth|Work>needs more backslashes tbh
10:13<Xaroth|Work>silly grep :|
10:14<Xaroth|Work>but shouldn't \d work better than [0-9] ?
10:14<Xaroth|Work>\\d\+\.\\d\+\(\.\\d\+\)\?
10:14<Xaroth|Work>(moar backslashes \o/ )
10:15<LordAro>apparently not
10:16<LordAro>at least, not with the default regex mode
10:16<LordAro>(and no, i can't be bothered to test the others :P )
10:19<Xaroth|Work>silly regexp
10:20-!-DanMacK [~453f332b@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>tried "grep -E"?
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>i always get confused which regexp parts need escaping and which don't...
10:22<LordAro>i think i did...
10:22<LordAro>:L
10:22*Zuu too as it differs from parser to parser
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>we should standardize regexp to end the confusion! :p
10:22<Zuu>yeah that would be good :-)
10:23<LordAro>http://xkcd.com/927/ :p
10:23<SpComb>I can never get vim's regexps right on the first try
10:26<retro|cz>SpComb, where is problem?
10:26<SpComb>it has different escaping rules for regexp symbols than any other regexp engine I've ever used
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember thinking that vim's escaping rules were "better", but i'm not quite sure
10:27<SpComb>it wants you to escape everything, except some things
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10:31<SpComb>(and then it also has four different modes for escaping more or fewer things)
10:32<Zuu>It depends on how you use it. If you use it mostly as a plain text search, then it is better to reverse escaping so that you need to write eg. \[0-9\] to make a class. But if you use the classes more, then a more traditional escaping is better.
10:33<Zuu>I guess that is why some symbols in vim needs a \ to become a magic symbol.
10:33<SpComb>the default is * but \+. And [...] but \(...\)
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>oh, now i remember what was "better" with vim: you could do multi-line matching
10:38<LordAro>Zuu: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=68690
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10:46<Zuu>LordAro: Thanks
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11:06<@peter1138>Hmm, should I use object locking or exceptions?
11:07<@peter1138>if (dict.ContainsKey(foo)) return dict[foo];
11:07<@peter1138>dict could've been changed
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>then exceptions might help you
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>try: return dict[foo] except Whatever: blah
11:10<@peter1138>yeah
11:10<@peter1138>or
11:10<@peter1138>lock (padlock) if (dict.ContainsKey(foo)) return dict[foo];
11:10<@peter1138>and make sure padlock is locked if dict changes
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>i generally try to avoid evaluating the same thing twice
11:11<@peter1138>skip the containskey bit
11:12<@peter1138>someone is bound to complain that that is using exceptions as flow control which is bad and wrong
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>then give the reason "do not evaluate dict twice, because it might change"
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>but if you worry about dict changing, who says that dict[foo] is atomic?
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11:16<@peter1138>maybe i should use exceptions AND the lock, heh
11:17<TWerkhoven>python?
11:19<TWerkhoven>if so, why not use dict.get(foo), itll return None if key does not exist
11:20<@peter1138>no
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11:28<Eddi|zuHause>TWerkhoven: but what if dict[foo] is None?
11:28-!-DanMacK [~453f332b@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>and it still doesn't say anwhere that .get() is atomic either
11:30<DanMacK>Anyone use Tortoise hg?
11:30<juzza1>yes
11:30<DanMacK>was going to ask how to purge pending changes instead of pushing them
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>"France forbids 'beauty contests' for people under the age of 16"
11:32-!-Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:33<@planetmaker>DanMacK, you want to loose that work. Or just remove the commits?
11:33<juzza1>I ran into that once, solved by deleting local repo and pulling remote, but i guess there must be a better way
11:33<oskari89>There is
11:34<oskari89>Just a minute
11:34<Xaroth|Work>Eddi|zuHause: you can create an arbitrary empty object
11:34<Xaroth|Work>and use .get(foo, empty)
11:34<Xaroth|Work>and compare the result to empty :)
11:34<oskari89>Right click the one changeset you want to get rid of (not yet pushed)
11:35<oskari89>Modify history at the bottom -> Strip
11:35<oskari89>And then click strip :)
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth|Work: and how is that any shorter/clearer/more elegant/safer/whatever than catching a KeyError exception?
11:35<blathijs>peter1138: Doing dict[foo] and catch an exception is more pythonic
11:36<Xaroth|Work>Eddi|zuHause: exceptions are expensive
11:36<Xaroth|Work>blathijs: that's debatable
11:36<oskari89>DanMacK: Did that work? :)
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth|Work: but how are you hiding "empty" in a way that it is guaranteed to never be used outside this function?
11:38<blathijs>Xaroth|Work: It's commonly referred to as "Easier to ask forgiveness than permission" (EAFP) and AFAIK it's considered the more sane programming style in python
11:39<blathijs>THat said, I can't find it in a PEP or anything really authorative
11:39<blathijs>Xaroth|Work: Are exeptions so expensive in python? Also, doing the lookup twice (in the common case where the key _is_ in the dict) als seems expensive to me
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11:46<DanMacK>Yeah :D
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11:55<@peter1138>Yeah this isn't python, it's C#
11:56<@peter1138>And everything I read says to not use the exception method :S
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12:01<blathijs>peter1138: Ah, the casing of ContainsKey should have tipped me off there :-)
12:06<@peter1138>I wonder if that's just a generic crap about exceptions though...
12:06<@peter1138>In 99.999% of cases the key will exist, so the exception won't be triggered.
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think that's just generic crap about exceptions
12:06<blathijs>optimizing for the common case seems the better strategy to me
12:07<@peter1138>there is a very very minor chance of the dict changing between the check and the lookup
12:07<@peter1138>the usual wisdom is to insert a lock
12:07<@peter1138>but what about the performance penalty of doing a lock that 99.99% of the time is not needed...
12:09<@peter1138>http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12416735/containskey-vs-try-catch
12:09<@peter1138>Hah
12:09<@peter1138>try-catch is faster when most lookups are successful
12:10<@peter1138>(the particular example there is bogus)
12:10<blathijs>peter1138: I do think that holds for most locks, that they're not needed 99.99% of the time :-)
12:11<@peter1138>True
12:11<blathijs>But it also depends if the dict itself makes any kind of guarantees about thread-safety
12:12<blathijs>I can imagine implementations of a dict which would crash if you insert something into the dict halfway a lookup
12:13<@peter1138>Point
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12:31<alluke>time goes so fast in normal ottd
12:31<alluke>must cheat it back a bit
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>write a daylength patch
12:41<@peter1138>:D
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13:05<@peter1138>Oh well, I decided on a simpler solution. The dict is never actually updated, only replaced. So I can just take a local copy of it.
13:06<@peter1138>Now, unless a = b is not atomic, it shouldn't need locking ever.
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13:21<@Rubidium>in a highly pipelined CPU, what is atomic?
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13:27<retro|cz>peter1138, Do you have plan to rewrite OTTD into C#?
13:27<+glx>don't be silly
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13:29<@Rubidium>it's easy to write "OTTD" in C# ;)
13:30<LordAro>Console.Writeline("OTTD"); :D
13:30<@Rubidium>public class OTTD { publis static void Main { System.Console.WriteLine("OTTD"); } }
13:30<LordAro>damn
13:30<LordAro>:p
13:30-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-216-71.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:30<LordAro>and i forgot the capital 'L'
13:32*Rubidium guestimates that's in the order of magnitude of 1% of all C# code I've ever written ;)
13:32<LordAro>probably about 0.1% for me :)
13:32<LordAro>and you still managed to do it better :p
13:33<LordAro>wait, no, 0.01%
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13:34<@peter1138>retro|cz, no.
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13:34<retro|cz>peter1138, sad story :/
13:34<LordAro>bash: "`...`" or "$(...)" ? i've read that "`...`" is deprecated
13:35<retro|cz>damn Rubidium you're C# superstar
13:35<retro|cz>publis?
13:35<retro|cz>It should be pubic I think.
13:35<retro|cz>or pubis?
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>does clicking on "create project" in msvc count as "writing code"?
13:42<Pinkbeast>It's meta-writing code
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13:56<LordAro>bash: "`...`" or "$(...)" ? i've read that "`...`" is deprecated
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>i usually use $() as it's clearer
13:59<LordAro>that's what i was thinking
14:01-!-retro|cz [~retro@ip-78-45-93-251.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
14:04<LordAro>say, this is pretty neat: http://www.shellcheck.net/
14:10<@peter1138>retro|cz, why sad? It would only make it slower...
14:13<LordAro>peter1138: but you'd have a patch for making it faster, right?
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>but it would lie there for years not being committed
14:14<retro|cz>no, it will be paid patch in Windows Store
14:15<LordAro>ouch
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14:16<Wolf01>hello
14:16<LordAro>/o
14:17<@peter1138>Heh, I do all my C#ing on mono...
14:17<LordAro>phew :p
14:18-!-Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>hey, i was young and needed the money...
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14:21<LordAro>something, something, morals, something
14:21<@peter1138>Hmm, 2560x1440 monitors...
14:22*LordAro wants
14:22<retro|cz>Eddi|zuHause, so you're former porno actor?
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>... almost
14:22<@peter1138>LordAro, better, 2560x1600. 16:10 ratio :D
14:22<@peter1138>Shame it's 30"
14:23<@peter1138>£600 +vat :S
14:23<LordAro>:(
14:23<@peter1138>or £650 +vat for the 10 bit version, hmm...
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>you can't say '30"' and "porno" within few lines :p
14:23<LordAro>i'll just wait for a 4k screen :)
14:24<@peter1138>Why wait?
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>why pay 10k for it?
14:24<@peter1138>http://www.asus.com/Monitors_Projectors/PQ321Q/
14:24<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, and another 10k for the GPUs needed...
14:24<@Rubidium>4k is pretty low quality ;)
14:26<LordAro>fine then, and eyefinity setup of 6x4k screens :p
14:26<oskari89>OpenTTD at 2560x1600 sounds fine :D
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>i think i already paid way enough on my 100€ graphics card
14:26<@Rubidium>I already seen 8k in real life over 5 years ago
14:27<@Rubidium>or rather, "Super Hi-Vision" as that also boast 22.2 surround sound besides 8K
14:28<LordAro>Rubidium: are you talking about a cinema? :p
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14:28<@Rubidium>LordAro: regarding eyefinity http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/Frame-Rating-Eyefinity-vs-Surround-Single-and-Multi-GPU-Configurations/Discov
14:29<@Rubidium>apparantly it's still quite buggy
14:29<@Rubidium>but no, not in the cinema
14:30<@Rubidium>it was in a research lab at NHK
14:33<LordAro>ah, NHK, i might have known
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>it would probably be weird to get a screen instead of a projector in a cinema
14:37<LordAro>regarding eyefinity, that seems to be a bug with the driver in general - i experience those problems myself (1x1080p screen, catalyst driver)
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14:50<+glx>LordAro: catalyst is the problem ;)
14:51<+glx>a driver that needs .net framework (even if it's only for the control center) is not a good thing for me
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with .net framework?
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14:56<+glx>it just slows windows starting, because it needs to launch .net to be able to launch control center
14:57<LordAro>glx: unfortunately, it's the only option for any sort of gaming - the opensource version just isn't up to it (yet)
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>honestly, i have never cared about windows startup time on my systems
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>but on my father's computer it takes like 15 minutes until it's usable
14:58<+glx>yeah I know that
14:59<+glx>and if you try to do something with it before that time it may hang
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>yeah
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>i've had that happen a few times
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>and always when i was in a hurry
15:06<Xaroth|Work>glx: the .net requirement is only for the control center; which is loaded after startup, not during
15:07<+glx>Xaroth|Work: I know
15:07<+glx>and it's loaded at session opening
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>that can probably be disabled
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15:29<LordAro>wait, .net? fairly sure i haven't got that - unless they include it in their linux versions :L
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15:31<retro|cz>glx, you can disable that in msconfig
15:38<Xaroth|Work>LordAro: on linux it's called Mono, most likely
15:42<LordAro>i do have mono, but as far as i can tell, it's not required for the control-center
15:44<NGC3982>Wat
15:44<Xaroth|Work>not on linux, no
15:45<LordAro>well what were you talking about then? :p
15:46<Xaroth|Work>the windows client?
15:46<Xaroth|Work>or at least, glx was :P
15:47<LordAro>you replied to me though :p
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>well, would have been more clear if you said fglrx driver :=)
15:49<Xaroth|Work>LordAro: you mentioned not having .net
15:49<LordAro>"...unless they include it in their linux versions :L" :p
15:54<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
15:54<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 22 hours, 51 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <andythenorth> have fun with law :)
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16:24<AndreasB>Are transfers paid on transfer?
16:25<AndreasB>If I have a line thats 50 tiles, transfer, then new line 50 tiles, deliver
16:25<AndreasB>is that 100 line cargo?
16:25<AndreasB>tile*
16:27<frosch123>you only get real money for the final delivery
16:28<frosch123>the intermediate yellow income does not affect your bank balance, it's just transfered from the train that picks up the cargo again to the one which brought it
16:28<frosch123>see also https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/Feeder_service
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16:33<frosch123>night
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16:33<Eddi|zuHause>no, you can't make money buy just shoving back and forth the same passengers
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16:45<AndreasB>Eddi|zuHause: Ehh
16:45<AndreasB>I didnt say that
16:45<AndreasB>A to B, transfer. B to C, deliver
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you get paid for A to C, the transfer credit is just so that the A to B vehicle won't have negative income all the time
16:58<AndreasB>aha'
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16:59<juzza1>4x space or tab?
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>if the B to C vehicle shows negative income, you should reduce the feeder share in the settings
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>juzza1: i use tab, because my editor is weird with switching between languages
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17:00<Eddi|zuHause>also, i keep tab at 8 spaces, otherwise things get really weird with mixing
17:01<juzza1>ok
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17:16<fjb>Moin.
17:21<LordAro>/o
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17:28<LordAro>if anyone's still awake, is there another way to implement a source.list type thing, but without using awk (configure:100) ?
17:29<@Rubidium>use any other programming language that's readibly available?
17:29<LordAro>that can easily be used inside a bash script :p
17:32<fjb>You don't have bash everywhere. It is ok if you can do it in plain sh.
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17:34<LordAro>bash/sh w/e
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>abhsw/ehs?
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>abw/e?
17:42<Wolf01>'night
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19:28<AndreasB>Please
19:28<AndreasB>how do I ignore an player
19:28<AndreasB>so I cant receive PM
19:28<AndreasB>even possible?
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20:06<Bad_Brett>wow... this time i've got some REALLY cool stuff going on
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20:12<Bad_Brett>hey roboboy
20:19<roboboy>hello
20:21<Djohaal>is there any working game month extender that keeps industry production rates high?
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 19 00:00:27 2013