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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-09-20

---Logopened Fri Sep 20 00:00:28 2013
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06:43<NGC3982>Is the in-house coding (except the VBA programming) of Excel based on BASIC?
06:44<NGC3982>Or should i look at it as a dialect of VBA?
06:45<NGC3982>Or ..Wait.
06:45<NGC3982>It's just VBA?
06:46<NGC3982>My introduction to coding starts flawlessly.
06:48<V453000>total wtf = perfect coding
06:50<NGC3982>I was under the impression that the VBA (the editor) part was not the same code the one used in normal spreadsheets
06:51<V453000>nothing code related is "normal"
06:56<NGC3982>V453000: Sorry?
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>i've never written a line of VBA in my life...
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>whenever i needed functionality in "excel" (or any spreadsheet), i turn to complex formulas, not scripts
07:07<NGC3982>I guess that is what i have been doing
07:08<Xaroth|Work>I play eve, most people ingame know enough about excel to help me out whenever I have an issue with it :P
07:08<NGC3982>Over-the-top long ass IF function loops
07:09<NGC3982>I have always had this feeling that most of my Excel formulas could be replaces with like twenty letters of code.
07:12<NGC3982>How exciting life can be, when you notice all Cisco 79* IP phones come pre-coded with Space Invaders.
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07:20<Eddi|zuHause>xkcd has never been more true...
07:20<NGC3982>Don't spoil.
07:21<@planetmaker>hehe, yeah, sooo true :-)
07:21<NGC3982>I always start my work day with a dose of XKCD and the Oatmeal.
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07:33<LordAro>ha, indeed
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08:14<LordAro>"svn info | grep 'Date' | cut -d' ' -f4-6" <-- is there a better way of using cut (or just better way in general)?
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08:31<@planetmaker>I'd probably use: LC_ALL=C svn info | grep 'Changed Date' | cut -c20-29
08:32<@planetmaker>actually -45
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08:50<DanMacK>Hey all
08:50<LordAro>planetmaker: the LC_ALL=C doesn't hugely matter, as i'm converting it to utc (with date) next anyway
08:50<LordAro>and when i tested it, LC_ALL didn't make a difference anyway
08:51<DanMacK>Damn Tadeusz and his 2X sprites :P
08:51<@planetmaker>LordAro, it does matter a lot ;-)
08:51<LordAro>how so? :L
08:51<@planetmaker>(it got nothing to do with time, rather with language)
08:52<DanMacK>Makes me want to do it for Iron Horse :P
08:52<@planetmaker>and you wouldn't find 'date' in languages other than... English
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08:52<LordAro>indeed not
08:52<@planetmaker>DanMacK, please do!
08:53<DanMacK>hard to do with 8bpp ;)
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08:54<@planetmaker>DanMacK, but he did it in 8bpp, too, no?
08:54<@planetmaker>yes, it looks quite convincing to me :-)
08:54<LordAro>thanks pm :)
08:55<@planetmaker>I'm afraid it doesn't lift the burden of drawing the 1x sprites, too. Scaling those would probably look aweful
08:55<DanMacK>he did and yeah
08:56<DanMacK>scaling them up needs alot of redrawing
08:56<@planetmaker>probably the only gain in scaling is that it gives you the general shape. But you'd then likely need to touch each pixel
08:59<DanMacK>alot of work but the results would be so worth it
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09:03<@planetmaker>DanMacK, yes, it would. And... it would also "enforce" to focus on a small but beautiful set. Thus not one of the usual sets over-burdened with too many too similar vehicles :D
09:03<@planetmaker>distinct choices to be made :-)
09:08<DanMacK>that's what we're aiming for
09:09<@planetmaker>yup :-)
09:10<DanMacK>hard to limit things, but it's nice
09:10<DanMacK>you know, 32bpp and zbase are cool, but something's to be said for 8 bit
09:11<@planetmaker>what? :D
09:11<DanMacK>3d stuff is cool, but pixel art is better :P
09:11*Pinkbeast rather likes 8bpp
09:11<DanMacK>same here
09:11<oskari89>There's some magic in 8bpp
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09:12<Pinkbeast>Particularly done well. Look at UKRS2, where you can say "that's an A4, that's a Spam Can, that's a Big Lizzie" even though it's done in such a tiny space
09:12<oskari89>... especially when you have 3D-model to render for 8bpp...
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09:12<@planetmaker>I believe that, if you want to do good 3D stuff, you need to invest your pixel art time in creating decent textures. By doing pixel art :-)
09:13<Pinkbeast>And there's an uncanny-valley effect where real-looking locomotives suddenly flipping 45 degrees looks worse than pixel-art locos
09:13<@planetmaker>unless for the goldrush thing that has not been done very thoroughly in openttd terms
09:13<@planetmaker>also that, yes, Pinkbeast :-)
09:14<oskari89>An pristine example of station drawing using 3D as base
09:15<oskari89>Dat awesomeness
09:16<@planetmaker>yes... with the same thing I mentioned yesterday wrt some FRISS signal houses: it's missing some dirt at the bottom of the walls
09:16<@peter1138>Only 4 years ago...
09:16<@planetmaker>it will float
09:16<@planetmaker>or appear to
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09:17<oskari89>planetmaker: ok, will apply some dirt on those :)
09:17<@planetmaker>well, I explained it in the forum thread :D
09:18<oskari89>I missed that if you did :P
09:18<@planetmaker>I think it was tadeusz' screenshot thread :D
09:26<LordAro>/o Belugas
09:27<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
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09:31<@Belugas>hi guys
09:31<@Belugas>sad news, still no suplied coffee. we are now forced to buy our own coffee bags :S
09:32<@Belugas>looks like provider has some (financial?) problems
09:32<@Belugas>damned it!!
09:38<@peter1138>Having said that, I am drinking coffee right now, even though it's afternoon.
09:38<@Belugas>you are becoming an addict ;)
09:39<@peter1138>I prefer the term... a gentleman. Anyone else for a bucket of coffee?
09:39<@Belugas>i raise mine!
09:39<Xaroth|Work>tea please.
09:39<@Belugas>whatever floats your boat;)
09:39<@peter1138>Tea, Earl grey, hot.
09:40<@Belugas>aye aye mon capitaine
09:40<DanMacK>So is there a spot I could find the actual zbase spites?
09:40<V453000>beer > coffee
09:41<@peter1138>Drinking beer at work doesn't get you very far though.
09:42<@Belugas>just to the bathroom more oftenly then coffee can
09:42<@Belugas>plus ... work quality... naaaaa
09:42<V453000>drinking beer gets you VERY far peter1138, sometimes a lot farther than you can recognize
09:44<@Belugas>yeah.. sleeping on a german balcony, as an example ;)
09:45<V453000>point proven
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>which amount of beer gets you this far? :p
09:47<V453000>well rice beer is special case :D
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09:54<Jap-mobile>Is there a mod that lets your vehicles stop at rival companies' stations?
09:54<Jap-mobile>And/or use their tracks?
09:54<Pinkbeast>Jap-mobile: Yes, "infrastructure sharing".
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it's rather old
09:55<Jap-mobile>That means fun times patching.
09:55<Jap-mobile>Is it any good?
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>it has problems with payment if you use cargodist/transfers
09:56<Pinkbeast>My impression is that it's only useful in games where humans are being relatively cooperative, and yes, it does fall afoul of transfer payments.
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>the company that makes the final delivery gets all the money
09:56<Jap-mobile>That's a no, then.
09:56<Pinkbeast>Jap-mobile: Well, not totally. You could not use transfers, and just run over the other person's lines to their stations where the cargo is accepted.
09:56<Stimrol>hi, I wanted to ask if there is some way to keep the companies password on MP after restart?
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>that's an issue you can reproduce in trunk, if you transfer at oil refineries (or other neutral industry stations)
09:57<Jap-mobile>Might be worth fiddling with the code a bit then.
09:58<Pinkbeast>Jap-mobile: Transfer payments is quite a large can of worms.
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>i have somewhere buried a few lines of code that replaces transfer payments with real payments, but that allows abuse with only delivering a partial route
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>or even back and forth
09:58<Jap-mobile>I never said I won't crash and burn.
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>but a real solution is rather problematic
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>there are a few forum threads about this
09:59<Pinkbeast>I'm not personally convinced that tracking everywhere a cargo packet has been is prohibitively expensive, but opinions vary
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>you're welcome to offer a solution
09:59<Jap-mobile>That's what I was thinking.
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10:01<V453000>sadly a solution to all problems with infrastructure sharing is playing in one company
10:02<Jap-mobile>Each transfer that happens in a rival station gives a percentage of the transfer funds? And if you lose money at the end, you actually lose money.
10:02<Jap-mobile>Because the transfer credits were paid to the station owner.
10:03<Jap-mobile>Which is what I'm trying to sell to the group I play multi with.
10:05<V453000>tell them to look at and that they will instantly reach equally good results if they play in 1 company
10:05<V453000>it isnt true but it is nice to hear
10:05<Jap-mobile>I played on one of those games.
10:05<Jap-mobile>Much fun was had
10:06<V453000>how long ago? :)
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10:16<@planetmaker>DanMacK, yes... the sprites can be found in the zbase repository :-)
10:17<DanMacK> Got them, just made it hard with every sprite individual :P
10:17<V453000>guess that is what you get with rendered stuf
10:42<Jap-mobile>V453000: pretty long ago. Few years at least.
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10:57<LordAro>oh, awesome, i got some code committed in an 'external' project :)
10:57<LordAro>i don't even understand the language :)
11:00<V453000>code is evul
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11:20<oceanhahn>Wow, there're a lot of people here. I was wondering if OpenTTD had a large multiplay base. I guess so?
11:21<TWerkhoven>theres plenty servers for ppl to play on yes
11:22<oceanhahn>Is there a list of them on the website? I took a look, but I may have missed it.
11:22<@planetmaker>check ingame the server list
11:23<oceanhahn>Oh. Hm. Cool, thanks.
11:23<@planetmaker>you might have most success if you play the current stable release (1.3.2). Thus best update, if you don't have that
11:24<@planetmaker>the other servers are shown, though, but you will need the exactly matching version
11:24<oceanhahn>Mm. I figured as much. Might need GRFs too.
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11:25<Zuu>Servers wtih a green symbol can be joined. Servers with a yellow symobol uses NewGRFs that you don't have yet. Click on the server and then on the button to search for missing content. In many cases it will find all missing content and with a click of a button you can download that from our Bananas server.
11:26<LordAro>I think you'll also find that most people here don't talk much :)
11:26<oceanhahn>Mm. I'd noticed that. It's really handy how you can get stuff in-game.
11:26<oceanhahn>That's fairly standard form for IRC. XD
11:28<oceanhahn>Are multiplay games always-on, or do they run in sessions?
11:29<oceanhahn>I guess I can just look and find out for myself...
11:29<TWerkhoven>depends on the server in question
11:29<TWerkhoven>some auto-reset at certain year, or time of day
11:29<TWerkhoven>others stay on till admin decide its time for a new map
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11:29<oceanhahn>Hm. Cool
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11:34<@planetmaker>you're quick, LordAro ;-)
11:35<LordAro>? wrt?
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11:36<AndreasB>Umm, are there any admin scripts etc for openttd ?
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11:37<Zuu>But you may get better answers if you specify what you are looking for
11:37<AndreasB>No idea
11:38<LordAro>planetmaker: ah. ha! :p
11:38<LordAro>you do have the secure link though :p
11:38<Zuu>Today the currently recommended method to use scripts to administer a server is via the admin port.
11:39<Zuu>There exist at least two libraries which implement a admin port client that can be used to write a script that talk to the admin port.
11:39<LordAro>actually, why is it like that? why can't i just do ? why is the separate secure subdomain necessary?
11:39<Zuu>I'm sure there exist such scripts. I do however not know if any of them are published somewhere.
11:39<LordAro>(ok, it redirects, but still)
11:39<Zuu>LordAro: Certificates are bought per domain.
11:40<Zuu>It would require us to buy one certificate for each sub domain. AFAIK
11:41<LordAro>well that sucks
11:43<Zuu>There could also be other reasons. TB probably know better :-)
11:46<@planetmaker>hm... admin port scripts... Taede has one I wanted to put to use...
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11:48<oceanhahn>Do mp maps usually transfer around 8~15kBpsec?
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11:53<oceanhahn>I guess it varies from server to server.
11:55<@planetmaker>download of the map depends on server. while playing ~2...3kbit/s per client are required
11:56<oceanhahn>Well yeah, but at that rate, map transfers would take quite a long time...
11:57<oceanhahn>I'm wondering if that's standard or whether I'm just running really slowly for some/no reason.
11:57<@peter1138>The initial transfer should be much faster.
11:57<oceanhahn>That's no good. Let's see what else I have running...
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12:00<oceanhahn>I'm constantly losing connections, too.
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12:03<@planetmaker>maybe bad connection. Or too big game for your cpu. or both :-)
12:05<oceanhahn>I wonder if it's either.
12:05<oceanhahn>My computer is fine, I know that much.
12:05<@peter1138>Everyone says that :D
12:05<oceanhahn>Then I guess everyone has connection problems.
12:06<oceanhahn>`v( o_o )v`
12:07<oceanhahn>I can up- and download things from anywhere else well enough, so I guess it's just not liking the game so much.
12:08<oceanhahn>I suppose it -could- be the computer, if for some reason it's taking broad exception to the way the game downloads and processes map data, and nothing else.
12:09<oceanhahn>Wouldn't be the strangest hardware issue I've ever seen a game have.
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12:18<oceanhahn>Hm. It can download updates at 400kbpsec but it can't handle map data. :C
12:18<oceanhahn>I guess I'll hunt around a bit.
12:19<Zuu>packet loss? jitter? slow round trip time?
12:21<@planetmaker>openttd requires a quite stable connection. http is much more tolerant wrt flaky connections as it simply re-requests missing packets
12:22<oceanhahn>I've never had any problems with any other games, and they've all been pretty demanding for connection stability.
12:23<oceanhahn>I'm not sure why it's running slowly.
12:23<oceanhahn>Could be a slow trip.
12:25<oceanhahn>Oh. Does Pause on Join pause the game for the entire time a client is downloading a map?
12:26<oceanhahn>The note in troubleshooting suggests that it might.
12:27<oceanhahn>Also, I wonder if the network my building is on is having issues with port forwarding. I don't know why that would cause it to run slowly, rather than not at all, but oh well.
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12:59<@planetmaker>salut Alberth
13:03<LordAro>/o Alberth
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25786 trunk/src/lang/slovenian.txt (2013-09-20 17:45:09 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>slovenian - 190 changes by Necrolyte
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13:59<@planetmaker>hm, is there a way to change / amend an image description in mediawiki?
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14:13<frosch123>afaik when uploading a new file
14:16<@planetmaker>yeah, then I can change it. But... I don't want to upload the same thing twice. then I'd keep it... as incomplete or euphemistic it might be
14:18<frosch123>is the picture from the factory near dora?
14:18<frosch123>oh, that
14:18<@planetmaker>yes, that
14:18<frosch123>s what you added :p
14:18<frosch123>yeah, looked familar
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14:20<LordAro>planetmaker: iirc, there's no way - the description is linked to the image
14:21<@planetmaker>one can edit the page actually... just the comment upon upload doesn't change
14:31<Zuu>What is most useful GSCompany.SetBankBalance(company_id, amount) or GSCompany.ChangeBankBalance(company_id, amount)? (where the later applies a delta to the bank balance and the former take an absolute bank balance value)
14:32<Zuu>(this is for GSes giving/taking money from companies)
14:32<frosch123>i would expect that a delta is more usual case
14:32<Zuu>The later could be split into GiveMoney + TakeMoney
14:32<Zuu>That is also my guess
14:32<frosch123>i think one function is enough
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14:32<Zuu>At least for rewarding and taking fees
14:33<frosch123>unless it shall show up in different categories of the econcomy gui
14:33<frosch123>hmm, or actualy... the gs could choose in which category it shall show up
14:33<Zuu>That detail I didn't think of.
14:33<frosch123>yeah, i guess it makes sense to let gs specify the category :)
14:34<Zuu>Yes, possible better to allow the GS to set a category rather than inventing a new GS-only category.
14:35<Zuu>With some restriction to only allow negative delta to be cost accounts and only positive deltas to be income accounts?
14:35<frosch123>i am not sure whether categories are that strict about that
14:36<frosch123>i would not restrict the sign
14:36<@Alberth>Zuu: you can have positive build accounts, just sell a lot of tracks
14:36<@Alberth>or sell trains, probably
14:36<Zuu>I don't tend to look that much on the economy window.
14:37<frosch123>i think there is a grf producing negative transport income
14:37<Pinkbeast>If money's coming in, who cares? :-)
14:37<Zuu>But I remember enough that there is two layouts for it. (not regarding the compact one)
14:37<@Alberth>Pinkbeast: I care until money comes in faster than I can spend :)
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16:00<DanMacK>Hey all
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17:48<Supercheese>Whoah, mb started a screenshot thread! This will be good
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19:11<Eddi|zuHause>and i thought he already had a "screenshot thread" in the grf development forum :p
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20:29<BuckD>Learn about the top Google sniper
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20:32<Haube>hi, i am looking for an option to start with minimal industry (which is there) and a way to prevent the random found of new industry or to have it limited to a minimal rate, to get an long slow evolving game, did i miss this option anywhere?
20:38<Haube>basically in the generator dialog,. start with industry seed minimal , and from then player only
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20:49<Supercheese>the Manual Industries grf should let you do that with the default industries
20:49<Supercheese>perhaps OGFX+ Industries as well
20:51<Haube>thx i will check it out
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 21 00:00:29 2013