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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-09-22

---Logopened Sun Sep 22 00:00:31 2013
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03:40<V453000>hmmm, any hints on how could I make a *0.7 expression into a switch block? If I just use X: 50*0.7; then I get this expression cannot be used if I use 0.7 , 0,7 gives "invalid token"
03:40<V453000>*7/10? :D
03:41<V453000>hm that seems to work, lets see which value I get
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03:53<@Alberth>hi hi
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03:59<V453000>hi
03:59<V453000>yay x*7/10 works :D
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04:00<@Alberth>euhm, ok :)
04:01<andythenorth>o/
04:01<andythenorth>also bye
04:01<@Alberth>bye
04:01<andythenorth>chores
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04:01<V453000>is there any more sane way to do -30% ?
04:01<V453000>meh, this thing works, good enough
04:01<V453000>dont bother :D
04:02<@Alberth>I think 7/10 is a good solution for -30% :)
04:02<@Alberth>although I am always troubled by the fact that (X-30%)+30% is not X
04:03<V453000>:d
04:03<V453000>:)
04:03<V453000>dont need that
04:04<@Alberth>I know, but it means there is a mathematical bug in the % concept ;)
04:04<V453000>XD
04:04<V453000>feature
04:04<@Alberth>:D
04:05<@Rubidium>Alberth: it's just because you write it with the syntactic sugar
04:05<@Rubidium>> X * 0.7 * 1.3
04:06<@Alberth>>>> 0.7*1.3
04:06<@Alberth>0.9099999999999999 <-- see, not 1.0
04:07<@Rubidium>Alberth: without the syntactic sugar it's clearer that it's not going to yield the same
04:08<@Alberth>true
04:09<@Alberth>it sort-of defeats the idea of relative increasing/decreasing :(
04:11<V453000>nver do math on meth
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04:39<Wolf01>hi hi
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04:49<@Alberth>o/
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06:15<andythenorth>'because I really like bubble land'
06:15<andythenorth>:(
06:16<NGC3982>I had a dream this night about being abled to put go-to orders depending on the state of a signal.
06:20<@Alberth>andy, kid didn't want to get out of the bath?
06:35<andythenorth>toyland
06:36*Alberth likes toyland too! \o/
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06:37*V453000 doesnt say anything
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>the opposite of -30% is +40%, obviously :)
06:40<V453000>Eddi is evil I almost went to check it with calculator
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 0.7*1.4
06:40<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.98
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>close enough :)
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>@calc sqrt(2)
06:41<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1.41421356237
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>@calc sqrt(2)/2
06:41<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.707106781187
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>those are exact opposites :)
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06:42<@Alberth>duh, it's the definition of sqrt :D
06:46<V453000>._.
06:47<V453000>what have I done with a simple question on train power
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well it's not THAT obvious from the definition of sqrt that sqrt(2)/2 = 1/sqrt(2)
06:48<@Alberth>fair enough :)
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07:03<frosch123>to continue the topic from last night: i guess renaming the palettes to "original" and "win9x" might work
07:03<frosch123>or even "normal" and "win9x"
07:03<V453000>do the palettes have slugs?
07:04<frosch123>does nuts have charmaelion trains meanwhile?
07:05<frosch123>which try to hide on purr rails by changing their colours?
07:05<V453000>charmaelion? :D
07:05<V453000>you mean chameleon?
07:05<V453000>chamelons are there but they change speed based on length of consist
07:06<frosch123>yeah, chameleon is better. the other one is a pokemon, right?
07:06<V453000>charmeleon is pokemon
07:06<V453000>charmelion is a mix of charmeleon and a lion
07:06<V453000>also, 0.6.0 will have trains which change stat bonuses based on which purr they are on - and obviously also some colour adaptations probably
07:07<V453000>but you totally didnt rea that, top secret :>
07:07<frosch123>you drank too much beer
07:07<frosch123>you already told me that 3 days ago
07:09<V453000>wasnt sure you connected it with your colour changing suggestion :P
07:11<Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> or even "normal" and "win9x" <-- but that still won't prevent people from thinking "i play on windows, i must change this"
07:12<frosch123>sure it does. "7" is normal "9x" is old crap
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>and in 5 years when windows 9 comes out? :p
07:12<V453000>XD
07:13<V453000>how about normal / BAAAD
07:13<V453000>?
07:13<V453000>:P
07:13<frosch123>hmm, maybe ms skips that number for that reason
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>"Windows A" :p
07:14<frosch123>Windows One ?
07:15<V453000>I wouldnt call it windows if possible :D
07:15<@Alberth>+1 on that
07:15<V453000>what is the win palette for anyway?
07:15<frosch123>so "normal" and "legacy win9x-compatible"?
07:15<@Alberth>V453000: some people use it :(
07:15<V453000>normal / wtf
07:15<frosch123>V453000: for old crap, and old douchbags who use old crap even today
07:15<V453000>or some similar name :)
07:16<V453000>well that doesnt mean it needs to be called win, does it
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>"normal" and "legacy" sound good
07:16<@Alberth>frosch123: I like the "legacy" idea
07:16<V453000>I know many new people get confused and want to use "win" because they are on "windows"
07:16<V453000>which doesnt make sense but go ask them
07:17<frosch123>maybe we can obfuscate the windows: "normal (D)", "legacy (W)"
07:17<V453000>normal / hysterical?
07:17<V453000>:P
07:18<@Alberth>frosch123: yeah, I was thinking "D palette" and "W palette" but your idea better expresses preference of D :)
07:18<frosch123>V453000: we need a "V" palette, which makes all colours animated
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>there are pills for that :p
07:18<V453000>I only make wetrails animate :(
07:18<V453000>XD
07:18<V453000>lol
07:19<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: oh, i did not know V pillls also work that way
07:19<@Alberth>lol
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07:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entriely sure either, never used any such pills :p
07:20<V453000>frosch123: eat a flash disc with nuts and purr on it
07:20<V453000>might have side effects
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07:29<@planetmaker>hello
07:29<@planetmaker>frosch123, I though maybe "default" and "legacy"?
07:30<V453000>default sounds good too
07:30<V453000>or default and fault? :D
07:30<@planetmaker>lol
07:32<@planetmaker>but normal and legacy... yeah, why not
07:34<@Alberth>the good and the bad :p
07:35<@planetmaker>hm... if we name D and W, we should use 'default (D)' and legacy (W)
07:35<@planetmaker>as then d = default :-)
07:35<@planetmaker>and w = wrong :P
07:35<V453000>XD best
07:36<@Alberth>'wegacy' :)
07:36<@planetmaker>w is for wimps ;-)
07:36<V453000>I am surprised frosch123 isnt suggesting rainbow palette
07:36<andythenorth>bonsoir
07:37<V453000>hi andythenorth
07:37<V453000>how in the hell does on draw shyps
07:37<V453000>one*
07:37<andythenorth>it takes bloody ages
07:38<andythenorth>ideally one gets DanMacK and Coxx to do it
07:38<V453000>I had a look at some of yours and took some slight inspiration but idk how ._.
07:38<V453000>mhm :D
07:38<andythenorth>ideally one starts from a render
07:38<V453000>render is fakof
07:38<andythenorth>shrug
07:39<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/no_palette_change.diff kinda, Alberth :-)
07:39<@planetmaker>2nd hunk is kinda independent. it disables 'toggle palette' button when the newgrf defines a palette via action14
07:40<@planetmaker>which imho makes sense whether we rename palettes or not :-)
07:40<frosch123>is "c" the right grfconfig in the second hunk?
07:41<frosch123>i.e. the one from the filescanner, or the one from the game/savegame
07:41<frosch123>(though i guess that only makes a difference if newgrf-tools are disabled, and scenario-tools are enabled)
07:42<@planetmaker>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2654/
07:42<frosch123>planetmaker: STR_CONFIG_SETTING_NEWGRF_DEFAULT_PALETTE_ are missing
07:42<@planetmaker>hm?
07:43<frosch123>there are more occurrenes of "dos" and "windows"
07:43<@planetmaker>ah, that you mean
07:43<frosch123>anyway, i cannot tell from that code snippet whether it's the right palette
07:43<frosch123>s/palette/grfconfig/
07:43<frosch123>i would just try loading a savegame with newgrf tools disabled and scenario enabled, and see whether you can change the palette
07:44<@planetmaker>that's what I did :D
07:44<frosch123>ok :)
07:44<@planetmaker>though I'm unsure about my scenario_editor status
07:45<frosch123>well, without it you shouldn't be able to change anything
07:45<frosch123>STR_NEWGRF_ERROR_DOS_OR_WINDOWS <- there is also that one
07:45<frosch123>i guess nothing we can change about that
07:45<frosch123>but i guess noone uses it anyway
07:47<@planetmaker>yeah, that probably should stay. And only will trigger for old, umnaintained NewGRFs which try to check palette :-)
07:48<@planetmaker>updated patch with string change
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07:50<frosch123>did you upload it somewhere?
07:51<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/no_palette_change.diff
07:52<@planetmaker>10 minutes ago. Forgot to highlight you :D
07:52<frosch123>so, you didn't :p
07:52<frosch123>no, but you said you updated the patch, so i checked it again
07:53<@planetmaker>oh... :D
07:54<@planetmaker>well, now
07:54<@planetmaker>I'd actually keep the last hunk separate. It's something different IMHO
07:54<frosch123>Default uppercase and legacy lowercase?
07:55<frosch123>i guess both should be uppercase
07:55<@planetmaker>yup
07:55<frosch123>sure, last hunk should be different patch
07:55<frosch123>i am unsure whether to trash the translations from all languages
07:55<@planetmaker>hm, string rename you mean?
07:56<@planetmaker>Might be a good idea actually
07:56<frosch123>no, just "sed '/STR_CONFIG_SETTING_NEWGRF_DEFAULT_PALETTE_[WD]/ D' *.txt"
07:56<@planetmaker>or it will linger around for... ages :-)
07:56<@planetmaker>hm :-)
07:56<@planetmaker>or that
07:57<@planetmaker>it would probably trash 5 Polish translation strings. Unless I commit at 20:15h or so :-)
07:57<frosch123>keeping the string ids is fine, since you also keep the GRFP constants
07:58<frosch123>planetmaker: it's unlikely that polish translated just those
07:58<frosch123>wt3 does not drop pending changes on commit if you mean that
07:58<@planetmaker>ah, you mean it's fine to touch the lang files? I always though if we commit to them, translations are... ^
07:59<frosch123>wt3 updates just fine. but noone knows what happens if you change a string via svn which is also pending
07:59<frosch123>so, we usually wait when changing lots of strings
08:00<@planetmaker>I see
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08:08<@planetmaker>so shall I go for the two patches and commit, including string wipe?
08:08<frosch123>yes
08:08<frosch123>you can also put the string wipe in a third commit
08:09<frosch123>if you hunger for the next party :p
08:09<@planetmaker>:D
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>anybody as excited about the election as i am? :p
08:11<@planetmaker>I was already voting... I'm kinda excited. But bored by the choice
08:11<@planetmaker>mutti oder stinkefinger ;-)
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>i'm considering voting for something i'm completely against, just to spite everybody :p
08:12<@planetmaker>how would you spite that way anyone but you?
08:12<@planetmaker>vote for something roughly in your direction, but a tiny party
08:12<@planetmaker>that way it has a chance to actually make a difference
08:12<@planetmaker>and hurt the establishment
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>no, the theory is that everybody does something completely different than what they promised. so if i vote for something where i'm against most of it, they do what i want in the end :p
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08:13<@planetmaker>you sold your vote and promised to vote for <X>? :-P
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>the second problem is i just ate and now i'm even more lazy than usual...
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08:14<V453000>PLEASE vote for a party which involves re-invading czech republic
08:14<V453000>ty
08:15<V453000>the mess here needs some redoing
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08:19<@planetmaker>V453000, then you want our current chancelor. She knows it all. And buys her will ;-)
08:20<V453000>:D
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>there is nearly no way the current chancellor won't be the next one, that's one of the problems with this election :)
08:20<V453000>y
08:20<V453000>I read that
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>because "the opposition" is no uniform block, so even if the current government doesn't get a majority, the "alternate" government won't get a majority either
08:21<V453000>look, communists will probably win in our election
08:21<V453000>can always be worse? :D
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>and any possible coalition that could come out of that situation will result in a chancellor merkel
08:24<@planetmaker>we shall see :-)
08:24<@planetmaker>in 3.5 hours
08:24<frosch123>V453000: you are lucky, you are neighboured to bavaria. 50% of parties and 60% of votes are right wing here
08:25<frosch123>there are usually online tests to aid you choosing your party. usually they have 1 question to separate you from right wing stuff. but in bavaria half of the questions was to differentiate the differen right wing parties :s
08:25<frosch123>other than that... i just aborted a paypal payment because the site i was redirected to did not properly validate it's idenity :s
08:26<frosch123>let's try a different online shop :p
08:31<@planetmaker>http://www.wen-waehlen.de/ is quite interesting
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08:32<NGC3982>Darn.
08:32<NGC3982>Our planning went to a complete waste
08:32<NGC3982>We are to change apartment in a month
08:32<@planetmaker>hm, should scenario_developers be allowed to change palette as now?
08:33<frosch123>you can change newgrf, then you can also change palette
08:33<NGC3982>And we are already done with almost all the packaging.
08:34<@planetmaker>ok, so that needs changing so that it still can do that :-)
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08:50<frosch123>hmm, i don't get the difference of the two results on wen-waehlen
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>i think one is the questions that you answered, and the other is the priorities that you set in the beginning
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>not entirely sure
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>in the direct candidate section, it shows pretty much opposite results :p
08:53<frosch123>well, one of them is as expected
08:53<frosch123>but the other one has one party in the front, which is second-last on the other
08:54<frosch123>that's weird :p
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>i think i'll prepare to go now...
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>somewhere between here and there i'll probably make up my mind :)
08:55<@Alberth>bring a few dice along, just in case :)
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>2x W20 :)
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>there are A LOT of parties :)
08:56<frosch123>well, you should be able to reduce it to 4 choices at most
08:56<frosch123>otherweise you really have no opinion :p
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>:)
08:58<frosch123>he, the blog is nice
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09:00<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25792 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt newgrf_gui.cpp) (2013-09-22 12:59:59 UTC)
09:00<@DorpsGek>-Change: Clarify the relevance of the permissible palettes
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09:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25793 /trunk/src/lang (53 files) (2013-09-22 13:01:18 UTC)
09:01<@DorpsGek>-Change: Trigger update of translations for palette names
09:02<AndreasB>Days in transit. Does it start after production, after loaded on train, or after train leaves station?
09:03<frosch123>after loading
09:06<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25794 trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp (2013-09-22 13:06:09 UTC)
09:06<@DorpsGek>-Change: No point to toggle a NewGRF's palette if its author declared one.
09:08<AndreasB>frosch123: Ok, but % transported is based on loads not being on stations, and trains leaving quickly?
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09:09<AndreasB>nvm
09:09<AndreasB>reading now
09:10<frosch123>% transported of industries is average of station rating during production periods
09:11<V453000>yay :D
09:11<frosch123>well, actually that's only true if there is only one station for the industry
09:11<frosch123>if there are multiple stations it gets more complicated :)
09:11<AndreasB>: p
09:12<AndreasB>Buyt
09:12<AndreasB>Basicly, im looking at game mechanics here
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09:12<AndreasB>One needs to change the trains every year
09:12<AndreasB>to keep station rating up
09:12<Dozer>Holy crap, didn't expect there's actually be people in here.
09:12<Dozer>Didn't think the openTTD community would be this big :)
09:12<V453000>pf
09:12<frosch123>Dozer: you are mistaken
09:12<AndreasB>Well, most are idiots doing citybuild
09:12<frosch123>there is almost noone hre
09:12<V453000>XD
09:13<V453000>AndreasB wins a point
09:13<@planetmaker>measured by downloads, not even 1% ;-)
09:13<AndreasB>planetmaker: what?
09:13<Dozer>AndreasB what does it mean doing citybuilds? :)
09:13<frosch123>Dozer: you can easily reduce the number of members here by 100 people who have never said anything
09:13<AndreasB>Dozer: Om å gjøre å bygge den største byen
09:13<Dozer>Yeah, that's usually how IRC works :D
09:13<@planetmaker>English only
09:13<V453000>dafuq
09:13<AndreasB>Ohh :(
09:13<Dozer>hahaha
09:13<Dozer>Norwegian ftw :D
09:14<V453000>:D
09:14<AndreasB>Thats discriminating.
09:14<V453000>awesome
09:14<AndreasB>: p
09:14<AndreasB>Kick everyone who hasnt said a word last 24 hours
09:14<AndreasB>:D
09:14<LordAro>D:
09:14<@planetmaker>would become empty
09:14<AndreasB>For ops the limit is 12 hours
09:15<@planetmaker>lol
09:15<AndreasB>planetmaker: I guess
09:15<@planetmaker>I'd then write a script to say '.' every 11 hours for me
09:15<@planetmaker>no-one wants that
09:15<frosch123>oh, V's language also has fancy character, but i guess neither å or ø
09:15<AndreasB>planetmaker: No seriously. Evne in-game.. There should be a higher .. requirement for admins to be active than players
09:15<AndreasB>æøå öä
09:15<@planetmaker>AndreasB, then play on servers which fulfill your 'requirement'
09:15<@Alberth>easily solved, make everybody a non-admin
09:16<AndreasB>I'd be stuck alone :(
09:16<AndreasB>Most servers never have admin presernt
09:16<AndreasB>-r
09:16<V453000>most :)
09:16<@Alberth>it sucks that you cannot make the world do what you want eh? :)
09:16<@planetmaker>important is that they're present when someone calls for them
09:16<frosch123>oh, maybe ottd should exit after 24 hours of no rcon command
09:16<AndreasB>Alberth: yeah, that bothers me daily...
09:16<@planetmaker>lol
09:16<AndreasB>planetmaker: That I can agree on
09:17<AndreasB>frosch123: haha
09:17<AndreasB>noo
09:17<AndreasB>but satellite stations shouldnt be possible
09:17<@planetmaker>AndreasB, and that requires me not to be connected to my server.
09:17<V453000>^
09:17<AndreasB>too many use them to cheat
09:17<@planetmaker>I'll just get a highlight on IRC ;-)
09:17<V453000>admins can be on IRC, not just in game :)
09:17<AndreasB>As long as people can get a hold of you from ingame
09:17<V453000>in fact admins generally do not play almost at all
09:17<AndreasB>then thats fine
09:17<V453000>ye
09:18<AndreasB>most servers dont even have admin paging system
09:18<@planetmaker>instructions on how to get admin attention are usually supplied by the 'better' servers
09:18<AndreasB>planetmaker: Doesnt work
09:18<AndreasB>take n-ice, admins are rarely even on IRC imo
09:18<@planetmaker>are they?
09:18<AndreasB>are they what? on irc?
09:19<@planetmaker>I would expect them to be around
09:19<AndreasB>.Me too, good luck with that though
09:19<@planetmaker>but... I don't play there, so I can't tell. And... take your complaint to the individual servers
09:19<AndreasB>Many servers think that satellite stations are a good thing
09:19<@planetmaker>yes, I do think so, too
09:19<AndreasB>Yeah, I can start cheating in BF3 because "some" servers have "no rules"
09:19<@planetmaker>sometimes
09:19<AndreasB>So its OK that I cheat on every server in bf3
09:20<AndreasB>no, satellite stations that are used only for coverage, is not fine.
09:20<V453000>you already player on our openttdcoop servers didnt you
09:20<AndreasB>huh?
09:20<@planetmaker>oh, you suddenly talk of another game. I would not know BF3
09:20<V453000>hm guess not :)
09:20<AndreasB>I am talking openttd planetmaker
09:20<V453000>well, all openttdcoop servers have basically all the time at least someone present
09:20<AndreasB>I just compared
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09:20<AndreasB>I have no idea what openttdcoop is
09:21<@Alberth>AndreasB: BF3 does not ring any bell here :)
09:21<AndreasB>Sounds like a merge between BF3 and openttd
09:21<@planetmaker>elite openttd servers ;-) And yes, no idea what bf3 stands for even
09:21<AndreasB>are you guys serious?
09:21<@planetmaker>yes
09:21<AndreasB>You HAVE heard of bf3?
09:21*Alberth nods
09:21<AndreasB>battlefield 3...
09:21<V453000>who cares tbh
09:21<AndreasB>Eh
09:21<@planetmaker>^
09:21<AndreasB>Entire world..
09:22<V453000>k
09:22<AndreasB>waiting for bf4
09:22<@Alberth>wrong type of game
09:22<AndreasB>Alberth: o.O
09:22<AndreasB>I get to shoot people in that game
09:22<AndreasB>It sure is the right kind :D
09:22<V453000>kind of not the similar one to openttd
09:22<AndreasB>Ok, that I cant argue on
09:24<frosch123>AndreasB: you are more likely to find starcraft or dota people here
09:24<AndreasB>e
09:24<AndreasB>w
09:24<AndreasB>Those two games are total crap, pardon me for saying so
09:24<frosch123>but i guess even then the majority does not play games newer than 10 years
09:25<AndreasB>Commander Keen <3
09:25<frosch123>i think i played that
09:25<frosch123>but there were better ones
09:25*planetmaker did. a bit
09:25<V453000>starcraft is crap
09:25<V453000>k
09:25<AndreasB>Yep
09:25<AndreasB>Red Alert is aaawaeeesome!
09:26*planetmaker played vgaplanets ;-)
09:26<V453000>have you even played sc2? :o
09:26<V453000>because I dont understand how can someone say sc2 is a bad game
09:26<AndreasB>sc2 is crpa
09:26<AndreasB>I guess.
09:26<V453000>crpa?
09:26<AndreasB>yes, crpa
09:27<AndreasB>its like crap, only worse
09:27<AndreasB>Its so bad if you spell it right, world goes BOOM
09:27<V453000>any reasons why or it is just crap "because" ?
09:27<frosch123>AndreasB: are you also one of those old guys who dislike every remake of a game? and only play stuff older than 10 years?
09:27<AndreasB>frosch123: Like what?
09:27<V453000>frosch123: battlefield 3 and 4 are apparently fine :)
09:27<AndreasB>V453000: It's just crpa
09:27<AndreasB>Dont forget BFBC2
09:27<AndreasB>And ArmA 2
09:27<V453000>that sounds like not the best argumentation AndreasB :)
09:28<AndreasB>V453000: Never said it was. :D
09:28<AndreasB>now WoW, thats crap right there
09:28<@planetmaker>and CLCK and QRST and AmmA and BllOOp and PooP
09:28<frosch123>WoW is about old gods afaik
09:28<V453000>I suppose all that just because it is not "the game where you shoot people"
09:28<AndreasB>planetmaker: whaat?
09:28<AndreasB>what games are that? hah
09:28<@planetmaker>makes as much sense as your abbreviations ;-)
09:29<AndreasB>sense?
09:29<AndreasB>the games name IS ArmA 2
09:29<AndreasB>http://www.arma2.com/agegate/agegate.html
09:29<@Alberth>let me guess, you can shoot people?
09:29<V453000>cant say I care about army games what so ever
09:29<frosch123>i played lasertag last week with some colleagues, does that count?
09:30<AndreasB>Alberth: It's an military simulator
09:30<AndreasB>so yes, you can shoot people :P
09:31<@Alberth>I am starting to wonder why you are here :)
09:31<AndreasB>Tell me, can a railroad track be too long?
09:31<@planetmaker>I guess OpenTTD falls into that category on grounds of the attack helicopter and fighter plane included ;-)
09:31<AndreasB>lol
09:31<frosch123>or because of bullet trains?
09:31<@planetmaker>or because of the apache newgrf
09:32<AndreasB>meh
09:32<AndreasB>is longer rail always better?
09:32<@Alberth>AndreasB: too long in what sense? some people connect everything to everything, and fill the entire world with tracks :)
09:32<AndreasB>haha
09:32<AndreasB>Say I want to move passengers from A to B
09:32<@planetmaker>what defines 'good' and what 'better'? What's your scale for success?
09:32<@planetmaker>amount? speed? money? station rating?
09:33<AndreasB>Speed vs money vs length
09:33<@planetmaker>that's a 3D data cube ;-)
09:33<AndreasB>%¤¤%&//&%
09:33<AndreasB>What I mean is: lets say I move 10 people 10 blocks, and get 100$
09:33<AndreasB>I move them 20, and get 250$
09:34<AndreasB>but if I move them 30, I only get 200$
09:34<@planetmaker>possibly. loading takes time and moves cargo not an inch :-)
09:34<AndreasB>Am I just an idiot at explaining?
09:34<@Alberth>it's not that simple; train length and loading time also count, as well as eg mountains that slow down the train
09:34<AndreasB>or are youtrolling me?
09:35<AndreasB>Lets say straight line
09:35<AndreasB>no hills
09:35<AndreasB>will further always be better?
09:35<@planetmaker>you didn't understand my answer and call me 'trolling'? Oh well
09:36<AndreasB>As days in transit increase, money decreases per unit. At some point it declines faster, do we agree?
09:36<@Alberth>your example already shows the counter example, right?
09:36<@Alberth>yep, cargo ages faster when it's beyond some age
09:37<@Alberth>but bringing it further gives more money, so it's a balance
09:37<AndreasB>yep, so in that sense, longer isnt always better unless you can deliver in 10 days?
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>... so... how do i know i've won something now?
09:37<@Alberth>I don't know, I don't care for making money at all
09:37<V453000>Eddi and election lottery, chapter 1? :D
09:37<AndreasB>The cargo payment rates are estimated with a distance of 20 squares. Is there an easy way to recalculate?
09:38<V453000>money doesnt matter in opetntd at all AndreasB
09:38<AndreasB>in order to get more money for trakcs it does
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>the payment graphs are somewhat useless
09:38<AndreasB>But, is it possible, taking aging into account
09:38<V453000>you have enough money for tracks after ~30 minutes of playing
09:38<@Alberth>hardly, in a matter of years you make more money than you can spend
09:38<AndreasB>That maybe if I move cargo 120 squares instead of 150, I could get more money because I get more per cargo due to lower days in transit?
09:38<@planetmaker>that depends on your settings and choice of newgrfs and their parameters, V453000 ;-)
09:39<@planetmaker>we just make it easy for us
09:39<V453000>sure pm but using higher costs is rather dumb, it only slows the game down, but doesnt change the logic
09:39<@planetmaker>V453000, but is it stupid? It's actually a challange of sorts
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>it depends on if you find the "early game" or "late game" more entertaining
09:40<V453000>well you wont build anything too differently
09:40<V453000>just slower
09:40<@planetmaker>yes... and if you use GS all bets are off :-)
09:41<@planetmaker>will be interesting to see when the first "tax the successful players" GS appears :D
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>exactly, "slower" means you have longer "early game"
09:41<@planetmaker>first million income in the year is free. the rest taxed with 90% :-P
09:41<AndreasB>Initial cargo payment values are for delivering 100 pieces of cargo 1 tile.
09:41<V453000>you have longer "early game" because you "wait more for money" Eddi, in nothing else
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>there was a civ4 mod where after 50 turns, you automatically take over the lowest civ
09:42<AndreasB>does that mean 10 passengers 1 tile is 3.9£ ?if initial cargo payment is 39
09:42<@Alberth>AndreasB: longer in the train costs money, more cargo is more money, that's the simple rule. What that means exactly depends on a lot of things, like loading time, what train you use (powerful versus fast), hills, and settings in the game. The simplest way to find out is to try it
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: yes, so you try to run more trains over less track, have totally different management options/requirements, ...
09:43<AndreasB>I'm looking for a way to calculate it
09:43<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: in addition, or instead of your starting civ?
09:43<@planetmaker>openttd does it
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: instead
09:43<frosch123>:o
09:43<@Alberth>V453000: not entirely, you also have to think more what to spend your money on
09:43<V453000>that becomes routine very quickly Alberth :)
09:43<@Alberth>could be :)
09:43<AndreasB>1 unit of oil is 100000 liters?
09:44<@planetmaker>the game tells you, no?
09:44<V453000>1k I think
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>1000
09:44<AndreasB>eh
09:44<AndreasB>Then I dont understand your wiki
09:44<AndreasB>Deliver 200,000 liters of oil 20 squares in 10 days:
09:44<AndreasB>2 * £54 * 20 squares * 100% = £2160
09:44<AndreasB>2 units * 54£
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>that is 200 units
09:45<AndreasB>:S
09:45<AndreasB>Initial cargo payment values are for delivering 100 pieces of cargo 1 tile., that means 100 000 litres is 54£?
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly are you reading?
09:46<AndreasB>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics
09:46<AndreasB>Delivery payment rates
09:46<V453000>moo moo moo mooo moo mooooo mooooo You just witnessed the mad nutcow herd going home from work.
09:46<V453000>bai
09:47<@planetmaker>:-) ciao, V453000
09:47<V453000>I go draw some animals :>
09:47<AndreasB>lol
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>also i think the page is wrong "days" should be "payment decay time units" (default = 2.5 days)
09:49<AndreasB>so 100 passengers is 1*£39*1square*100%= 39$ ?
09:49<AndreasB>@ *
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>AndreasB: so what is unclear?
09:49<AndreasB>If I move 100 passengers 100 squares in 10 days, thats 3900£ ?
09:49<AndreasB>with no inflation
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>no, because passengers are immetiately in the second phase, so you don't get 100% ever
09:51<AndreasB>oh right
09:51<AndreasB>But I dont get this one then: Income = cargo units * cargo value * 0,4
09:51<AndreasB>where does it take squares into account?
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>that paragraph makes no real sense to me either
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>it's like the formulas you learn in driving lessons... totally taken out of thin air
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>"safety distance in cities is 3 times the length of your car"
09:54<AndreasB>3 second rule
09:54<AndreasB>:D
09:54<AndreasB>Is what we use here
09:55<@planetmaker>3?
09:55<AndreasB>in 80kmh thats 66 meters
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>so if i drive a smart i don't have as much safety distance?
09:55<AndreasB>Yep
09:55<AndreasB>I think they can even give you a ticket for driving too close (closer than 3 seconds)
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>"safety distance outside cities is half the number on the speed-meter"
09:55<AndreasB>Eddi|zuHause: what?
09:56<AndreasB>so if 80kmh, its 40 meters?
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>something like that
09:56<AndreasB>How do you .. know what 40 meters is?
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>the posts at the side of the road are 50m apart
09:56<AndreasB>Thats just insane, if you think 3 seconds instead, you are golden
09:56*planetmaker learnte 2 seconds
09:56<@planetmaker>-e
09:57<AndreasB>2 seconds? And then you use 1 second toreact
09:57<AndreasB>boom
09:57<@planetmaker>if your reaction time is 1 second, you definitely need to use 3 second rule, yes
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>AndreasB: the police fine you for like below 10m distance
09:57<AndreasB>Ok, i googled, I agree, haha
09:58<AndreasB>from .15 seconds and up
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>i generally try to have rather large distance
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>but even that didn't suffice this one time...
09:58<AndreasB>I g ot 275 ms
09:58<AndreasB>http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/
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09:59<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably useless test :p
09:59<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, 2 seconds is on German roads HUGE. At least two cars will overtake and fit in between ;-)
09:59<AndreasB>268, 273, 424, 264
09:59<AndreasB>2 seconds isnt that much
10:00<@planetmaker>indeed not
10:00<AndreasB>2 seconds ~tailgater
10:00<@planetmaker>eh... no?
10:00<AndreasB>I'd be pissed if I had a car 40 meters behind me while driving 80kmh
10:01<AndreasB>cause he should be at least 66 meters behind me
10:01<AndreasB>planetmaker: is lanesplitting allowed in germany?
10:01<AndreasB>(motorcycles)
10:01<@planetmaker>what's "lanesplitting"?
10:01<AndreasB>driving between the lanes
10:01<AndreasB>like when there is a lot of traffic
10:02<AndreasB>and traffic jam
10:02<@planetmaker>not allowed
10:02<AndreasB>really?
10:02<AndreasB>thats a threat to motorcycle safety o.O
10:02<AndreasB>remind me never to go to germany
10:02<blathijs>But does it happen? :-)
10:02<blathijs>I'm no sure if it's allowed in .nl, but it happens a lot
10:02<AndreasB>It should
10:02<@planetmaker>blathijs, it happens a lot, yes
10:02<@Alberth>it's allowed in .nl afaik
10:02<AndreasB>Its the only sensible way to allow motorycles to travel
10:02<@planetmaker>and imho very dangerous
10:03<AndreasB>Alberth: Nice
10:03<AndreasB>No
10:03<AndreasB>Its not dangerous
10:03<AndreasB>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNGD9AAIfFU
10:03<blathijs>AndreasB: How is that a threat to motorcycle safety? I always think it's courageous of motorcyclists to drive between the cars. If a car isn't payint proper attention, they can easily get rammend...
10:03<@Alberth>planetmaker: it's only allowed at low speed, ie traffic jams and traffic lights
10:03<AndreasB>Cause I dont want a car up my ass
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's allowed in cities
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>but not on motorways and stuff
10:04<AndreasB>Theres no law in norway to stop it
10:04<AndreasB>Eddi|zuHause: that depends here
10:04<AndreasB>If there is a traffic jam, I will lanesplit
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>besides, on motorways you're supposed to leave a lane free for emergency vehicles
10:04<AndreasB>at all times?
10:04<@planetmaker>I found a link which says "not forbidden, but you need to ensure enough side-way distance to other vehicles
10:05<AndreasB>planetmaker: Well yes
10:05<AndreasB>When lanesplititng it is my responsibility not to crash
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really care if it's allowed, i'd find it dangerous
10:05<@planetmaker>but passing through within a jam is judged as overtaking on the right side by courts... so... you'll be fined
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>someone could open a door and stuff
10:05<@planetmaker>and you're at least partially at fault, if you crash
10:06<AndreasB> You dont pass on right side
10:06<AndreasB>ever.
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you can overtake on the right if traffic is "slow"
10:06<@planetmaker>http://motorrad.wikia.com/wiki/StVO
10:06<AndreasB>If you have 2 lanes each way, you pass inbetween your two lanes
10:06<AndreasB>I dont read german
10:07<AndreasB>I dont knmow how this is in your countries
10:07<AndreasB>but in norway, the law states that if someone wants to pass you
10:07<AndreasB>You have to slow down, stop if nessecary to let that person pass you
10:07<@planetmaker>you will hardly find concise treatise on German road traffic laws which are NOT in German ;-)
10:08<AndreasB>Den homologation regulerer hvilke biler har lov til å kjøre bil.
10:08<AndreasB>LOL
10:08<AndreasB>it says something about cars passing motorcycles?
10:09<@planetmaker>vice versa
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10:09<AndreasB>what is Durschlängelns
10:09<@planetmaker>passing in the middle
10:09<AndreasB>So there is no law against it?
10:09<AndreasB>not explicit law
10:09<AndreasB>-t
10:10<AndreasB>And one has to have enough side-clearance.
10:10<@planetmaker>[16:03]
10:10<@planetmaker><planetmaker> but passing through within a jam is judged as overtaking on the right side by courts... so... you'll be fined
10:10<@planetmaker>...
10:10<AndreasB>aha
10:11<AndreasB>Because I am passing on the right side of the car to the left?
10:11<@planetmaker>yes
10:11<AndreasB>Ok
10:11<AndreasB>So say you have 4 lanes each way
10:11<AndreasB>And someone is driving slow in left lane
10:11<AndreasB>you should NOT pass him in any other lane, because you are passing on right side?
10:11<AndreasB>That doesnt make sense ;)
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>he is violating the law, and should move to the right
10:12<@planetmaker>in a jam that usually is difficult ;-)
10:12<AndreasB> we please just go on standing columns with a maximum of 20 km / h over, make it two eyes and put your fingers on the brake.
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>jams are special situation
10:12<AndreasB>I always have fingers on clutch and brake in that situation
10:12<AndreasB>You never know when a fu**tar* of a driver wants to try to kill.. err block you
10:12<@planetmaker>it's not exactly specified in the law, But courts rules are thus that you're at least partially at fault, if you crash doing so
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10:13<@planetmaker>anyway... I don't really care
10:13<AndreasB>Ok, lanesplitting is imo the only sensible way to drive a motorcycle
10:13<AndreasB>Norwegian cars should be happy we are allowed to do it
10:13<AndreasB>otherwise jam would be A LOT bigger
10:13<@planetmaker>Norway virtually has no traffic
10:14<@planetmaker>honestly
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>"(8) Ist ausreichender Raum vorhanden, dürfen Rad Fahrende und Mofa Fahrende die Fahrzeuge, die auf dem rechten Fahrstreifen warten, mit mäßiger Geschwindigkeit und besonderer Vorsicht rechts überholen."
10:14<AndreasB>hey wait
10:14<AndreasB>planetmaker: If the left lane is standing still
10:14<AndreasB>Passing a PARKED vehicle on right side is allowed?
10:14<AndreasB>planetmaker: i think germany can benefit from allowing lanesplitting
10:15<AndreasB>Eddi|zuHause: That sounds to me to be 2 lane road
10:15<AndreasB>(1 each way)
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>so passing standing cars on the right is allowed, if you are on a bike, but not on a motorbike
10:15<@planetmaker>it would benefit more by limiting highways to 130km/h
10:15<AndreasB>WTH?
10:15<AndreasB>(8) If sufficient space is available, bike and motorbike Propelled Propelled may overtake the vehicles waiting in the right lane at a moderate speed and caution right.
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10:16<andythenorth>hmm
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>"Mofa" is some bike-motorbike-hybrid thing
10:16<andythenorth>nml spritecache just cached a changed sprite
10:16<andythenorth>afaict
10:16<andythenorth>or I have some other weirdness
10:16<andythenorth>that means compiles are indeterminate for the same rev
10:16<AndreasB>"Done it in all 4 of the countries you mention, even gone past LEOs. Not a problem in any of them. If it's not legal then it's certainly accepted."
10:17<@planetmaker>andythenorth, how can I reproduce?
10:17<andythenorth>planetmaker: no idea, never seen it before
10:18<andythenorth>I changed a spritesheet locally
10:18<@planetmaker>just didn't save in photoshop is not a possible cause?
10:18<andythenorth>no
10:18<andythenorth>couldn't get the change to show up in game
10:18<andythenorth>used make clean, make install
10:18<andythenorth>issue resolved
10:18<@Alberth>and in grfcodec decoding?
10:19<andythenorth>I don't have the grf anymore :(
10:20<andythenorth>the specific sequence of events:
10:20<AndreasB>The main safety reason for splitting lanes is to avoid a rear end collision, and to avoid excess heat dangers such as over heated bike and possible heat stroke (it is entirely possible when sitting between cars at 103 degrees).
10:20<andythenorth>I have sprite_gen_1.png and sprite_gen_2.png
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10:20<andythenorth>I renamed sprite_gen_2.png to sprite_gen_3.png
10:20<andythenorth>then copied sprite_gen_1.png and named it sprite_gen_2.png
10:21<andythenorth>sprite_gen_2.png should have appeared same as sprite_gen_1.png, but was showing same as sprite_gen_3.png
10:21<andythenorth>so I figure something about that set of ops confused the cache
10:21<andythenorth>ah
10:21<andythenorth>I don't think I did the move with hg
10:22<andythenorth>hg can cope with me changing stuff like that fine
10:22<andythenorth>maybe nml can't
10:22<@planetmaker>nml should not care about hg mv or simple mv (or cp)
10:22<andythenorth>ok
10:22<@planetmaker>it should be agnostic to that
10:22<andythenorth>hmm
10:22<andythenorth>I haven't tried to reproduce - have to go out :P
10:22<@planetmaker>:-)
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10:24<andythenorth>make clean fixed it
10:24<@planetmaker>yes, that removes nml's caches
10:25<andythenorth>never seeen it before, done thousands of compiles
10:25<andythenorth>corner case :P
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10:26<Eddi|zuHause>"(2a) Wenn auf der Fahrbahn für eine Richtung eine Fahrzeugschlange auf dem jeweils linken Fahrstreifen steht oder langsam fährt, dürfen Fahrzeuge diese mit geringfügig höherer Geschwindigkeit und mit äußerster Vorsicht rechts überholen." i think that paragraph applies to motorbikes in traffic jams as well
10:26<AndreasB>Did any of you watch taht video?
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>so you can only be fined if you drive "fast"
10:27<AndreasB>Thats it
10:27<AndreasB>if I pass you and planetmaker, you are both doing 10mph
10:27<AndreasB>And I pass between you at 15mph
10:27<@planetmaker>I never drive in mph ;-)
10:27<AndreasB>I havent really broken that law
10:27<AndreasB>bah
10:27<AndreasB>20kmh, and 30 kmh then
10:28<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but what is 'langsam'?
10:28<@planetmaker>AndreasB, yes, then I consider tha reckless driving of yours
10:28<@planetmaker>probably rightfully
10:28<AndreasB>But its not
10:28<AndreasB>Its safe driving
10:28<AndreasB>its less reckless
10:28<@planetmaker>it's overtaking the left-lane driver on the right
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: something a court can decide :)
10:28<AndreasB>Watch that video
10:28<@planetmaker>which is forbidden
10:28<AndreasB>Or wth
10:28<AndreasB>Nevermind
10:29<AndreasB>You have already made up your mind
10:29<AndreasB>Not taking facts into account
10:29<@planetmaker>no, I know German laws better than you ;-)
10:29<AndreasB>Well yes
10:29<AndreasB>of course you do
10:29<@planetmaker>and you simply argue like "I think it should be like <whatever>"
10:29<AndreasB>But lanesplitting is SAFER than not lanesplitting
10:29<AndreasB>Im not
10:30<AndreasB>Watch the video.
10:30<V453000>SHOOT PEOPLE
10:30<@planetmaker>treating motorbikes just like cars is what is safer
10:30<AndreasB>no¨
10:30<AndreasB>So you can rear end me?
10:30<AndreasB>Whats safe is giving the motorcycle control
10:30<@planetmaker>sure. you know what's best
10:31<@planetmaker>I trust you. totally
10:31<AndreasB>My god
10:31<AndreasB>Just watch the damn video
10:31<AndreasB>If you still think its reckless, thats up to you
10:31<AndreasB>I bet you are the kind that tries to kill those that do lanesplit
10:31<AndreasB>That tries to block them from passing
10:32<Zuu>I noticed that Simutrans now got scripted scenarios. What may be a clever thing in their solution is that within one zip file they store both the scenario file and the script file + translations. On http://scenarios.simutrans.com/list they list 6 scripted scenarios. 2 of them look somewhat advanced (Berlin & New York City).
10:33<Zuu>Would we (OpenTTD) get more interesting scripted scenarios if 1) it would be easier to upload them. 2) they would be shown as a category of its own in the content download window so that they will not be lost among all other scenarios
10:33<@planetmaker>AndreasB, it's a video of motorbike freaks who advocate reckless and unsafe driving for the sake of their own speed
10:33<Zuu>Or is OpenTTD players more open to free play without any rules? :-)
10:33<@planetmaker>the type of driving they show is scary to say at least
10:33<AndreasB>planetmaker: It gets you faster from A to B
10:33<@planetmaker>and rightfully forbidden
10:33<AndreasB>You as in CAR DRIVER
10:34<AndreasB>Bullshit
10:34<AndreasB>Lets just drop the subject
10:34<@planetmaker>AndreasB, I don't care about 1 minute on a 3 hour trip. But I care about people getting there *safely*
10:34<AndreasB>You are alreadsy brainwashed
10:34<AndreasB>yeah
10:34<@planetmaker>and it will exactly gain me *one minute*
10:34<AndreasB>And making motorcyclists stand still in traffic IS NOT SAFE
10:34<@Alberth>Zuu: scenarios need getting rid of the newgrfs first, 1 is not the main problem I think, as it affects only the author
10:34<AndreasB>1) Rear ending
10:34<AndreasB>2) Over heating
10:34<@Rubidium>2) hitting an opened door
10:35<AndreasB>Doors shouldnt be open!
10:35<AndreasB>And if y5ou get hit by a door, you are riding TOO FAST
10:35<AndreasB>Cant you see that?
10:35<@Rubidium>AndreasB: and you shouldn't be rear ended
10:35<@planetmaker>4) pulling over to the right and being overtaken right at the same time
10:35<AndreasB>Rubidium: I have NO control of that
10:35<@Alberth>about 2, I'd say scripting is a property of a scenario itself
10:35<AndreasB>Lanesplititng gives me control over that
10:35<Zuu>Alberth: Well a well designed scenario should use NewGRFs as a way to paint their story on the canvas that is the map and game rules.
10:35<@Rubidium>AndreasB: neither do you have control over someone opening their door
10:35<Zuu>At least for a scripted scenario which aim to tell a story or so.
10:35<AndreasB>Why would anyone do that?
10:35<AndreasB>They are in traffic
10:36<@planetmaker>AndreasB, but I don't want you to take control over the intengrity of my car. Just stick to the traffic rules like all.
10:36<@Rubidium>because they have been standing still for 20 minutes?
10:36<@Rubidium>(or an hour)
10:36<AndreasB>Oh well, It's legal here
10:36<@planetmaker>Motorbikes are not special. Simple easy. safe.
10:36<AndreasB>So I will continue being safe :)
10:36<AndreasB>http://motorcycles.about.com/u/ua/readerrides/Should-Lane-Splitting-Be-Legal-For-Motorcycles.htm
10:36<AndreasB>That one then
10:37<AndreasB>All types of people replying, not only motorcyclists
10:37<@Rubidium>having said that, apparantly it's allowed to overtake in a traffic jam... if the jam is stationary and you're going less than 10 kph
10:37<@planetmaker>that's where you err, AndreasB. It's not safe :-) It's only what you want to believe.
10:37<@Alberth>Zuu: I agree, you do want newgrf capabilities in the scenario, but not in the current setup imho. scripting also makes a lot of sense, so it should be an integral part of the scenario rather than an add-on, or a special type
10:37<AndreasB>http://rideapart.com/2013/04/neveda-lanesplitting-bill-passes-transportation-committee/
10:37<@planetmaker>Rubidium, yes... but the video clearly adocates a quite different approach ;-)
10:37<AndreasB>Why would they pass bills if it wasnt safe?
10:37<@Rubidium>... and loads of other rules and regulations
10:37<AndreasB>[16:37:25] <@planetmaker> Rubidium, yes... but the video clearly adocates a quite different approach ;-)
10:38<AndreasB>Why do you say that?
10:38<AndreasB>15-20mph over is safe
10:38<AndreasB>15 mph is 24 kmh
10:38<@planetmaker>with like 1m distance to cars. overtaking in between. yeah, sure
10:38<AndreasB>yep
10:38<Zuu>Alberth: It could just be a tar with the scenario + specialized GS from a technical point of view. But in practice it will make it easier to upload and with an own category to find.
10:38<AndreasB>Well no
10:38<@planetmaker>it's insane
10:38<AndreasB>Nor with 1M
10:38<AndreasB>1M is too little
10:39<AndreasB>But usually there is more than that between cars
10:39<@planetmaker>anyway, it's discussed ad nauseam. you got your opinion. Drive safely. It's kinda become boring and... slightly off-topic here
10:39<@planetmaker>eod for me
10:39<AndreasB>:)
10:40<AndreasB>I do drive safely, I hope you do too. And if you encounter someone "breaking the law", try to make as much roo mfor him as you can :)
10:40<@planetmaker>why?
10:40<@Rubidium>well... I almost hit a door of a car when on my bicycle going something like 15 km/h and had barely enough time to stop. This was on a dedicated busy bike lane next to a road where there wasn't really a reason to expect someone to get out after standing in a queue for a while
10:40<AndreasB>" It is allowed in California and has proven to be safe"
10:40<@planetmaker>wth do I care about US laws?
10:40<@Alberth>Zuu: it should be a tar imho, especially with the new format by T3rkhen. A new category may make sense to differentiate them from the "old" scenarios, which would be good probably
10:40<AndreasB>Rubidium: Dont worry
10:41<AndreasB>We hate you cyclists too
10:41<AndreasB>get the F*** off the road
10:41<AndreasB>:)
10:41<@planetmaker>a car door caught me once. My bike was broken. So was the door
10:41<@Rubidium>ah well, I'm likely faster at my work by bicycle than you would be, if you were obeying the law ;)
10:41<@planetmaker>:-)
10:42<AndreasB>I am obeying norwegian law
10:42<AndreasB>ther eis no law against lanesplitting
10:42<@planetmaker>Where you drive you need to obey luckily local law ;-)
10:43<@Rubidium>in any case, lane splitting won't help you win my "race" ;)
10:43<@Rubidium>it's the traffic lights that make you loose
10:43<AndreasB>Rubidium: Are you on the road with your bicycle?
10:43<@planetmaker>indeed. I'm faster at work with my bicycle than by any other transport means
10:43<AndreasB>If yes: Stop for the red light
10:43<AndreasB>otherwise YOU are the one breaking the law
10:43<AndreasB>(At least here)
10:43<AndreasB>If you are on a bicycle, you are considered a vehicle
10:44<AndreasB>and the law applies to vehicles.-
10:44<AndreasB>You have to stop for the same red light that I have to stop for
10:44<@Rubidium>AndreasB: I'm on the bicycle path, where you aren't allowed to drive with your motorcycle, that goes over all the roads that you need to cross using traffic lights
10:44<@planetmaker>no. Bicycles have separate lanes ;-)
10:44<@planetmaker>and separate traffic lights :-)
10:45*Rubidium knows places where traffic lights for bicyclists are green four times more often than those for cars/motorcycles
10:45<@planetmaker>and as long as they do exist, I'm not even allowed to drive on the road
10:48<AndreasB>Rubidium: Ah, you mean on the side.. Normally you have a lights there too, yes?
10:48<AndreasB>We also have bicycle paths, but they have to stop for red signal
10:49<@Rubidium>the bicycle path I'm talking about has a bridge over the roads, where the cars/motorcycles need to cross it at level
10:49<AndreasB>most just keep on going at red lights
10:49<AndreasB>ah, ok
10:49<AndreasB>well thats good.
10:49<AndreasB>But you get green at same time as cars, of course?
10:49<AndreasB>Or same time as those who are walking across?
10:50<@Rubidium>depends on the location
10:50<AndreasB>ok
10:50<AndreasB>Say you are coming down the pathway
10:50<AndreasB>where people walk
10:50<AndreasB>And want to cross the road
10:50<AndreasB>You HAVE to get off the bike?
10:51<AndreasB>Her in .no I do not stop for cyclists that doesnt get off their bikes, even if light is green for crossing
10:51<@Rubidium>I know a place where all cyclists from all sides are getting green at the same time, then one direction of cars, then cyclists, then another direction of cars, then cyclists, then the third direction of cars, then cyclists (all of them), then the fourth direction for cars and then the cycle starts again
10:51<AndreasB>eh
10:51<AndreasB>I didnt get that
10:52<AndreasB>So first all cyclists gets green
10:52<AndreasB>no matter what direction
10:52<@Rubidium>exactly
10:52<AndreasB>then one direction of cars
10:52<AndreasB>eh
10:52<AndreasB>Thats weird
10:52<AndreasB>illogical
10:52<@planetmaker>that's netherlands. and cycling works exceptionally well there.
10:52<AndreasB>Northbound and southbound should get green at the same time
10:53<@Rubidium>AndreasB: then you haven't been in the Netherlands, because that will cause deadlocks
10:53<AndreasB>how so?
10:53<AndreasB>I think you misunderstood me kinda
10:53<AndreasB>I know I misunderstood myself
10:53<@Rubidium>those from the south going to the west and from the north going to the east will have to basically wait on eachother
10:54<AndreasB>Example: Northbound going straight and southbound going straight gets green at the same time
10:54<AndreasB>yes, but they didnt get green yet
10:54<AndreasB>N->E and S->W can drive at the same time
10:54<AndreasB>and N-W and S-E
10:54<AndreasB>N-N, and S-S
10:55<AndreasB>W->W and E->E
10:55<AndreasB>do you understand?
10:55<@Rubidium>still, then you have different 'states' of the junction
10:55<AndreasB>yes
10:55<@Rubidium>instead of everyone coming from the south goes in state 1, everybody from east in state 2, etc
10:56<AndreasB>http://goo.gl/maps/XVaGU
10:57<AndreasB>thats a place near where I live
10:57<AndreasB>left lane = goes left, right lane = straight + right
10:57<AndreasB>When the red light goes green, both lanes can go
10:57<AndreasB>Then the light becomes red again, and the little box on the side becomes green
10:57<AndreasB>meaning only those going left
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10:59<AndreasB>can you find me a crossing like the one you are talking about?
11:00<AndreasB>http://goo.gl/maps/jQw1p
11:00<AndreasB>is that what you mean Rubidium?
11:02<@Rubidium>that's just a massive mess
11:03<AndreasB>lol
11:03<AndreasB>amsterdam :P
11:05<@Rubidium>stupid Google...
11:05<@Rubidium>they went to the place where I know it works like I just explained when they were doing road works there :(
11:05<AndreasB>aww
11:05<AndreasB>next intersection then? :D
11:06<AndreasB>But
11:06<AndreasB>It was said that if 10% of car drivers in belgium switched to motorcycles
11:06<AndreasB>there would be 40% less .. trafficjams?
11:07<AndreasB>I dont know the correct english word for it lol
11:07<planetmaker>one hour to go... until "Mutti vs. Stinkefinger" comes to its final show-down
11:07<AndreasB>Directly translated its like queue
11:08<AndreasB>do you know what its called?
11:08<@Rubidium>http://goo.gl/maps/TKb5I though you can't really see the traffic light of the cyclists there
11:09<AndreasB>ok, so one direction gets green at a time?
11:09<NGC3982>That look so ..swedish.
11:09<AndreasB>no it doesnt
11:09<AndreasB>lol
11:09<AndreasB>ok
11:09<AndreasB>maybe it does
11:09<@Rubidium>AndreasB: yes, cars coming from one direction (going to the three others)
11:09<AndreasB>NGC3982: I was in gothenburg yesterday
11:09<AndreasB>Rubidium: That sounds like it creates more traffic than it solves
11:09<NGC3982>Grey, brown and bad weather.
11:09<NGC3982>AndreasB: Neat. Aren't you Swedish in the first place?
11:10<planetmaker>lol, I trust the Swedish person more in the judgement "swedish" ;-)
11:10<AndreasB>I would let N->N and S->S go first
11:10<AndreasB>maybe even N-E and S-W at the same time
11:10<AndreasB>jeg er norsk ffs
11:10<@Rubidium>you still have the same number of states
11:10<AndreasB>:D
11:10<AndreasB>no
11:10<NGC3982>AndreasB: :D
11:10<AndreasB>you do?
11:11<AndreasB>With your thingie you have 4 car states, plus 4 cyclist?
11:11<@Rubidium>AndreasB: yes
11:11<AndreasB>with mine you have ... 4
11:11<AndreasB>lol
11:11<planetmaker>lol. no way. You neglect cyclist in your "solution"
11:11<@Rubidium>AndreasB: and with your thingie, *and* the pro cyclist 'rules' you still have 4 car states + 4 cyclist states
11:12<AndreasB>planetmaker: Not counting cyclicsts
11:12<AndreasB>yep
11:12<AndreasB>Rubidium: Thats true
11:12<AndreasB>BUT
11:12<planetmaker>thus you compare apples and pears
11:12<AndreasB>With mine, you could have as low as 2 car
11:12<planetmaker>and say apples are 'better'
11:12<AndreasB>Because if noone is going left
11:12<@Rubidium>because after each car state, there must be an opportunity for all cyclists to cross the junction
11:12<AndreasB>the light will never go green for left
11:12<AndreasB>but skip it
11:12<AndreasB>allowing better flow of traffic since n-n and s-s can drive at the same time
11:12<planetmaker>not happening the densest populated country in Europe
11:13<planetmaker>(maybe except Luxembourg, Malta,...)
11:13<AndreasB>what does dijk mean?
11:13<AndreasB>is that like street?
11:13<planetmaker>Deich ;-)
11:13<AndreasB>kuipers street kuipersdirjk
11:14<@Rubidium>causeway
11:14<AndreasB>-r
11:14<AndreasB>what?
11:14<AndreasB>causeway?
11:14*planetmaker enjoys the popcorn
11:15<@Rubidium>http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijk_%28weg%29 / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>"A causeway is a road or railway route across a broad body of water or wetland raised up on an embankment."
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>[Wikipedia]
11:16<AndreasB>:S
11:16<AndreasB>That was in the middle of city, but ok
11:16<@Rubidium>s/was/is/
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>the netherlands are all wetland :p
11:16<@Rubidium>it *was* outside of the city... some time ago
11:16<AndreasB>hahaha Rubidium
11:16<AndreasB>+1
11:16<AndreasB>but lanesplitting allowed in .nl?
11:17<AndreasB>NGC3982: Is it allowed in sweden?
11:17<AndreasB>But really
11:17<AndreasB>Its fun how study in belgium showed that if 10
11:17<AndreasB>10% changed to motorycle
11:17<@Rubidium>AndreasB: at traffic standing still and you not going faster than 10 km/h and the lane not being closed and the lane not being an emergency lane and ...
11:17<AndreasB>40% less traffic
11:18<AndreasB>you have own emergency lanes?
11:18<AndreasB>Lets say its 70kmh zone, and traffic is going at 45, I can pass at 55 ?
11:18<@Rubidium>no
11:19<AndreasB>ok, because?
11:19<AndreasB>Im not going faster than 10kmh over
11:19<@Rubidium>but the traffic is moving
11:19<AndreasB>so?
11:19<AndreasB>they are still under speedlimit
11:19<AndreasB>and I will lanesplit
11:20<AndreasB>bah, who am I kidding
11:20<AndreasB>I dont give a fuck what speed is
11:20<AndreasB>As long as its under the speedlimit, and I have enough room, I will pass cars
11:21<planetmaker>I want to see motorcyclist doing that both ways ;-)
11:21<AndreasB>Cars have to stop envying us motorcyclists
11:21<AndreasB>planetmaker: That could be exciting
11:21<planetmaker>yup. head-on-crash two motor-cycles and 4 damaged cars. fun.
11:22<planetmaker>but faster
11:22<planetmaker>I'm already envious :-)
11:22<planetmaker>you even can then ignore red lights. Lawfully. In the ambulance
11:23<AndreasB>planetmaker: Not really
11:23<AndreasB>I would have to move into my lane, he into his lane
11:23<AndreasB>But normally there are 2 lanes each way
11:23<@Rubidium>http://goo.gl/maps/qSjkT <- where would you overtake this bunch?
11:23<@Rubidium>there's lots of space on the left and right of the road ;)
11:23<AndreasB>Do you guys have own bus-lanes?
11:23<AndreasB>Can motorcycles drive there?
11:24<planetmaker>can yes.
11:24<AndreasB>Well, this seems like a trick question
11:24<AndreasB>I take it the leftmsot lane is emergency lane
11:24<AndreasB>Since the X
11:24<AndreasB>and long stripes
11:24<@Rubidium>AndreasB: I wouldn't do that in Enschede. Even if it's allowed, it would be extremely slow to travel over it
11:24<planetmaker>looks like the typical dutch highway near cities
11:25<AndreasB>But I might pass between lane 1 and 2, or 2 and 3
11:25<AndreasB>In norway there is a law that states "keep to the right"
11:25<AndreasB>The first vehicle there would break that law
11:25<planetmaker>no vehicle in the image breaks that rule
11:25<@Rubidium>mostly because the traffic lights are triggered by a transponder in the bus that you won't have
11:25<AndreasB>Eh planetmaker
11:25<AndreasB>keep the RIGHT
11:25<AndreasB>not LEFT
11:25<planetmaker>yes. None violates it, though
11:26<AndreasB>Rubidium: here its triggered by thingie in the ground
11:26<AndreasB>planetmaker: He does
11:26<planetmaker>They overtake slower traffic on the right
11:26<AndreasB>He is keeping the the left
11:26<AndreasB>in his lane
11:26<@Rubidium>AndreasB: for normal roads it is, but for bus lanes it generally isn't
11:26<AndreasB>He has 1 meter to the right
11:26<AndreasB>he should be more to the right imho
11:26<planetmaker>it's my lane. where I drive there is my beer
11:26<AndreasB>But judging on their position, I'd pass them between the two rightmost lanes
11:27<planetmaker>it's fit for exactly one vehicle. Not more. Lest one vehicle and one motor cycle
11:27<AndreasB>planetmaker: Bullshit
11:27<AndreasB>That lane is wide enought to fit both motorcycle and car
11:27<AndreasB>Considering two lanes are used
11:27<planetmaker>not with safety margin
11:27<AndreasB>Yup
11:27<AndreasB>:)
11:27<AndreasB>5 feet should be enough
11:27<AndreasB>3 for me, then one feet on either side
11:27<planetmaker>no. 1.5m
11:28<planetmaker>each side
11:28<AndreasB>nope
11:28<AndreasB>I disagree
11:28<planetmaker>look up in the legislation ;-)
11:28<AndreasB>well yes, but we all know laws are stupid
11:28<Dozer>Rubidium in Denmark we're starting to pass laws about allowing the emergency lane to be used during peak hours as well.
11:28<AndreasB>Or, many of them are
11:28<AndreasB>Dozer: you have emergency lanes? :S
11:28<AndreasB>I've never seen that in norway
11:29<Dozer>AndreasB on the motor-ways, yes.
11:29<AndreasB>Dozer: do you have bus-lanes like we do?=
11:29<AndreasB>for bus + taxi
11:29<Dozer>AndreasB in copenhagen I know they do have it.
11:29<AndreasB>Can MC's drive in it?
11:29<Dozer>Otherwise they would never go anywhere, besides being stuck in traffic.
11:29<AndreasB>and can I lanesplit in denmark?
11:29<Dozer>No clue, but my guess would be no.
11:29<Dozer>What is lanesplit?
11:30<planetmaker>haha :-)
11:30<@Rubidium>Dozer: actually the lane with the red X isn't an emergency lane, it's an extra lane for rush hour
11:30<Dozer>Rubidium I know :)
11:30<AndreasB>Why isnt it always open?
11:30<Dozer>I just noticed that they were using the lane to the far right, which for me, is the emergency lane.
11:30<AndreasB>whats the lane on the right side?
11:30<@Rubidium>problem is that due to legal reasons... yay greens, you can either have the two lanes open and drive 120 or have three lanes open and drive 100
11:31<AndreasB>what?
11:31<AndreasB>So speedlimit with 2 lanes = 130
11:31<@Rubidium>the lane of the right side is the emergency lane (for when you have car trouble)
11:31<Dozer>Rubidium either way, it would still be better with 3 lanes.
11:31<AndreasB>3 lanes = 100?
11:31<planetmaker>Rubidium, is 3 lanes per direction limited to 100km/h in NL?
11:31<AndreasB>WTF
11:31<Dozer>You could still push way more traffic through.
11:31<AndreasB>that doesnt make sense
11:31<@Rubidium>planetmaker: nope, depends on the situation
11:31<AndreasB>We have 100 max no matter how many lanes :D
11:31<planetmaker>aye ok. I just wondered.
11:31<@Rubidium>but in this case the third lane is narrower
11:31<AndreasB>Rubidium: I see 4 signals over the road
11:32<AndreasB>but 3 lanes..
11:32<planetmaker>not suitable for trucks :-)
11:34<@Rubidium>they can show a green arrow above the emergency lane in case of a collision to tell people it's okay to drive on that lane to pass the accident
11:34<AndreasB>I drove to gothenburg yesterday
11:34<AndreasB>And I was..
11:34<AndreasB>baffled by how much better swedes are at looking in the mirror
11:34<AndreasB>People actually moved out of the way to let me pass on motorcycle
11:35<Dozer>AndreasB but I was thinking about your earlier statement when I first entered the channel, about peoplle just doing "city builds". Are there other ways to make an even more profitable company in the game besides that?
11:35<Dozer>An easy start is ofc just wailing some planes out, and some trains, and transport whatever pays the most, fast.
11:36<planetmaker>Dozer, it can be very profitable to transfer all local passengers to an ICE terminal. And ship passengers from there to another large metropolitan area on the other side of the map
11:36<Dozer>What is an ICE terminal?
11:36<planetmaker>planes, btw, are not a good choice. airports are VERY limited in throughput. Any train station easily beats that
11:36<planetmaker>inter city express :-)
11:37<planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity-Express < those ;-)
11:37<@Rubidium>likewise with cargo; transfer iron ore to one corner of the map (preferably the one furthest away), then move the steel to a factory at the complete opposite of the map, and move the goods back to a town near the steel mill
11:37<Dozer>Yeah I know about their very limites throughput, but if you can throttle that to the maximum, without overdoing the planes pr airfield, you can make a ton of money.
11:37<@Rubidium>you just moved one stream of cargo about 4 times over the whole map
11:37<AndreasB>Rubidium: +1
11:37<AndreasB>how did we get back on topic? o.O
11:37<planetmaker>Dozer, yes... but it needs (usually) maintenace. planes crash. trains not
11:37<planetmaker>when unmaintained and with default settings
11:38<Dozer>True.
11:38<planetmaker>and one train can make more money than a plane
11:38<AndreasB>Tell me
11:38<planetmaker>and succession can be quicker
11:38<AndreasB>is there an easy way to swap out old trains?
11:38<AndreasB>for new ones
11:38<Dozer>Rubidium I'm just thinking, how is it profitable to transfer it THAT much across the map?
11:38<planetmaker>hm... :-) let me look
11:38<AndreasB>Considering you should get new trains every year
11:38<AndreasB>Age in years of last vehicle entering station <---
11:38<Dozer>planetmaker I know the german ICE trains ;) I just though it was a certain type of transportation in the game.
11:39<AndreasB>Also make sure that every turn is at least the size of train
11:39<AndreasB>so it doesnt slow down
11:39<Dozer>ye
11:39<planetmaker>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_81_-_90#gameid_84 for instance :-)
11:40<AndreasB>I see many people use
11:40<AndreasB>WOW
11:40<AndreasB>THAT CITY
11:40<AndreasB>why are there 4 statsions after eachother?
11:40<planetmaker>Dozer, well. in coop we have a certain "game style" which we sometimes employ. we call that s-bahn and ice. Which means local transport and inter-city (long distance)
11:40<@Rubidium>Dozer: I'm not quite sure, though a fast train makes money when it moves, so it should be moving most of the time instead of waiting/slowing down at stations
11:41<planetmaker>AndreasB, the station doesn't otherwise fit into 64x64 tiles with the required capacity
11:41<AndreasB>huh?
11:41<planetmaker>the four small maglev stations there are the city-local transport
11:42<AndreasB>Sorry, dont get it lol
11:42<planetmaker>and for space reasons the different lines are put next to each other at the hub terminal
11:42<AndreasB>they are all connected?
11:42<planetmaker>download the savegame and see yourself
11:42<AndreasB>ok
11:42<planetmaker>you might need the #openttdcoop grfpack, though
11:42<planetmaker>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/GRF <-- download and unzip into your newgrf dir
11:43<planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/grfpack/releases/LATEST/ottdc_grfpack_8.0.zip direct link
11:43<AndreasB>ah
11:43<planetmaker>AndreasB, and yes, every station is used. to its capacity limit
11:44<Dozer>Where is the newgrf folder placed planetmaker?
11:44<planetmaker>dunno, what OS do you have?
11:44<planetmaker>readme section 4.2 :D
11:44<V453000>my god pm showing game 84 when we are at 260s is a bit old XD
11:45<planetmaker>V453000, well... I remember best the games... I played myself :D
11:45<Dozer>planetmaker windows 7 :P
11:45<planetmaker>forgive me :-)
11:45<AndreasB>I dont get where to put them
11:45<AndreasB>C:\Users\unknown\Documents\OpenTTD\newgrf\ottdc_grfpack
11:45<Dozer>ah there.
11:45<Dozer>ty
11:45<V453000>I realize that :D perhaps you might want to have a look at the hall of fame for a short overview :P
11:46<planetmaker>yes... just looking for that tbh :-)
11:46<AndreasB>planetmaker: Cant get it to work xD
11:47<planetmaker>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_91_-_100#gameid_96 <-- but this one I was looking for really. 3 cities. 2.9M population overall :-)
11:47<AndreasB>where do i unzip to?
11:47<V453000>201 is highest population with 50%+transported
11:47<V453000>games before that often had low transported rates
11:47<planetmaker>with each city having one ICE terminal. turn-over of ~20000 passengers per *month*
11:48<V453000>101 was record with 3M population, but idk, like 10% actually transported
11:48<planetmaker>game 96 had low transport, too
11:48<planetmaker>at least in "my" city
11:48<V453000>aye
11:48<planetmaker>not low transport. but station rating
11:48<V453000>transfer station rating is always low
11:48<planetmaker>that's different things really :-)
11:48<planetmaker>yeah
11:49<V453000>what matters is % transported
11:49<planetmaker>^
11:49<AndreasB>:|
11:49<AndreasB>oh well, screw it then
11:49<planetmaker>AndreasB, you said it yourself where to unzip the grfpack to
11:49<AndreasB>wiki doesnt even say where to put them
11:49<AndreasB>I DID
11:49<planetmaker>not sure what more advice you need
11:49<AndreasB>It didnt work
11:49<V453000>I say 50%+ is a rule, 60% is okay, 70% is good, 80% very good, and above 90% perfect
11:49<planetmaker>nor does my crystal ball, you know ;-)
11:49<planetmaker>(no, you don't)
11:49-!-sla_ro|master [slamaster@85.186.160.35] has joined #openttd
11:50<AndreasB>I am missing grf's
11:50<AndreasB>Canadian stations set
11:50<AndreasB>Dutch station set
11:50<V453000>thats the grf pack
11:50<Dozer>I get some of the same issues.
11:50<AndreasB>C:\Users\unknown\Documents\OpenTTD\newgrf\ottdc_grfpack
11:50<AndreasB>Well, I have that there..
11:50<Dozer>I did download the grf pack, but it still says I have some files missing.
11:50<Dozer>I could find some of the online.
11:50<Dozer>But not all.
11:50<V453000>did you unzip the pack?
11:50<planetmaker>what is missing?
11:50<AndreasB>yes V453000
11:51<V453000>well then idk how did you achieve that :D
11:51<AndreasB>I am missing: Canadian stations set v0.3d, dutch station set, modern tram set, new water 0.7, north american roads set v.19, ottd_grfpack/8_cehivles/trams
11:51<Dozer>CanadianStations V0.3d
11:51<Dozer>Dutch stations set
11:51<Dozer>Modern Tramset
11:51<V453000>yes clearly the grf pack
11:52<Dozer>New Water 0.7
11:52<Dozer>NOrth American Road Set V1.0
11:52<V453000>same for Dozer
11:52<V453000>..
11:52<AndreasB>if I move the grf pack out, I get more missing stuff
11:52<planetmaker>sounds all like what's in the grfpack
11:52<AndreasB>but clearly something still missing
11:52<planetmaker>ok... missing but compatible found?
11:52<AndreasB>no
11:52<Dozer>My list was way longer at first.
11:52<Dozer>But managed to find it online.
11:53<Dozer>So it auto-downloaded.
11:53<AndreasB>let me delete all newgrf I ahve downloaded
11:53<AndreasB>then put it back in
11:53<Dozer>But it still has 6 things missing.
11:53<planetmaker>2_landscape/newwater/newwaterw.grf is there in the pack
11:54<AndreasB>nope, still missing the same
11:54<planetmaker>do you guys have your openttd.cfg next to your openttd.exe? and not in c:\Users\blah\Documents\OpenTTD?
11:54<@Alberth>you unzipped it to a directory tree?
11:54<Dozer>I have the config file in my documents folder.
11:54<Dozer>Not in the install location.
11:54<AndreasB>eh
11:54<planetmaker>then try moving the ottdc_grfpack dir to the newgrf dir next to openttd.exe
11:54<AndreasB>Config file is : C:\Users\unknown\Documents\OpenTTD
11:55<AndreasB>ok
11:55<AndreasB>There is no newgrf dir there
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>4 minutes to go...
11:56<planetmaker>create it. put the ottdc_grfpack dir inside that newly created newgrf dir
11:56<Dozer>Still not working.
11:56<AndreasB>misisng files
11:57<AndreasB>but it says, "This is a replacement for an existing NewGRF"
11:57<planetmaker>that's ok
11:57<AndreasB>k
11:58<planetmaker>those mentioned newgrfs are only provided as compatible ones
11:58<Dozer>Yeah I get the same.
11:58<Dozer>I think it's the MD5 checksum that isn't identical.
11:58<Dozer>So it complains about it.
11:59<Dozer>Because the files are actually present.
11:59<planetmaker>yes. I know. But that's ok. They will work
11:59<planetmaker>you'll have yellow indications in the newgrf settings instead of green. but it should load and display fine
11:59<AndreasB>they are red
11:59<AndreasB>in newgrf settings they are yellow
12:00<AndreasB>but
12:00<AndreasB>generictram
12:00<planetmaker>so... what happens when you press 'load'?
12:00<AndreasB>I cant
12:00<AndreasB>It says its missing files
12:00<AndreasB>When I look at the only red file
12:00<AndreasB>its 8_vehicles/generictrams/generictrams_v0.32.grf
12:00<AndreasB>Mathcine file not found
12:00<AndreasB>matching*
12:01<planetmaker>hm...
12:01<AndreasB>but here
12:01<AndreasB>B>
12:01<AndreasB>err
12:01<AndreasB>C:\Users\unknown\Documents\OpenTTD\newgrf\ottdc_grfpack\8_vehicles\trams
12:01<AndreasB>there are no such dir as "generictrams"
12:02<planetmaker>ok, hold on
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>hm... this prognosis is... inconclusive
12:07<AndreasB>holding on
12:07<AndreasB>for life
12:07<Dozer>Remember to hold your breath as well.
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>CDU/CSU (42%) might have a shot at absolute majority, if FDP is out (4,7%) and AfD (euro-sceptics) is also not in (4.9%)
12:08<planetmaker>hmpf. I don't find that file on my HDD :D
12:08<planetmaker>but I clearly have it :-D
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12:09<AndreasB>lol
12:10<@Alberth>planetmaker: something like Generic_Tram_Set-0.4.tar ?
12:10<planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/Generic_Tram_Set-0.4.tar
12:10<planetmaker>yes
12:11<planetmaker>was in the logical place. Just too stupid to both see it and grep for it :-)
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12:17<planetmaker>seems that we removed it as compatible. But compatible isn't downloaded. oh well.
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12:29<planetmaker>does it work with that additional grf file, Dozer ?
12:30<V453000>FUCK, is there a maximum file LENGTH for nmlc?
12:30<V453000>like 65k?
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>CETS is much larger than that
12:32<V453000>k so unexpected end of file is some other issue :D
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>that usually means a missing }
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe ;
12:33<V453000>hm :) fuck
12:35<V453000>aye, found it :)
12:35<V453000> /panic mode off
12:35<Dozer>planetmaker no. I kinda just aborted the mission to get it working.
12:35<Dozer>Was AndreasB able to get it to work?
12:37<planetmaker>no clue
12:38<V453000>he seems to be happy on our server now, idk with the savegame
12:38<Dozer>planetmaker but basically, with or without the GRF's, the trick is to just transfer passengers from towns into a larger terminal, and the transport it from there with larger faster trains to other larger terminals, across the map, near big cities?
12:39<planetmaker>that's the essence, yes. Makes it sound boring though ;-) while building it was loads of fun :D
12:40<Dozer>Nono, I like it like that :D
12:40<Dozer>It's simple as fuck, and I won't run out of ressources on that one.
12:41<Dozer>But I noticed, when I transfer certain types to train terminals, does some sustain there, while other wither away over time?
12:41<Dozer>Like, diamonds, I had them transfer from several sites to a big terminal, but they just disappeared over time.
12:42<planetmaker>default industries don't wither way over time (unless it's oil wells)
12:42<Dozer>Oh okay. The diamonds just.. disappeared from my transfer terminal for some reason.
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>you need to keep rating above 50% at all times
12:43<planetmaker>service frequency / quality might have been too bad
12:44<planetmaker>diamonds have very low production, thus at least intially it needs low-capacity vehicles to pickup stuff
12:46<Dozer>Yeah. But I just figured that, if I collect those from the site, and transfer it to a train terminal, that is sitting with no association to anything, and is in the middle of nowhere, it would just sit there, untill I pick it up with a larger train?
12:46<Dozer>Or do I need to have a train come to that terminal in a high rate, for the stuff to not wither away over time?
12:47<planetmaker>it would start to decay after station rating is <50%
12:48<V453000>VERY slowly mind you XD
12:48<V453000>we lately seem to get values like 600 000 passengers at stations rather often :|
12:48<Dozer>aaaah okay
12:48<Dozer>Now I get it.
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12:55<planetmaker>station rating calculation is a bit... awkward. It doesn't account for turn-over but only for 'currently waiting'
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>hm, newest estimate says CDU absolute majority by 2 seats
13:00<planetmaker>omg. That'd be disasterous :-(
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>under the assumption that both FDP (4.6%) and AfD (4.9%) are out
13:01<planetmaker>yeah
13:02<Dozer>CDU is that the opposition atm, or is it Merkel's party?
13:02<planetmaker>Merkel's
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>that is Merkels party
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>current government is CDU+FDP
13:03<Dozer>ah okay
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>AfD is a new euro-sceptics party, and SPD, Green and Left are the current opposition
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13:29<fjb>Moin.
13:29-!-Japa [~Japa@112.79.37.49] has joined #openttd
13:33*fjb just came home from counting votes.
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>oh, so it's your fault :p
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13:38*fjb is just telling the bad news.
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25795 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-09-22 17:45:44 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 6 changes by juanjo
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 4 changes by telk5093
13:46<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 2 changes by Stabilitronas
13:46<@DorpsGek>polish - 5 changes by lion
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
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13:46<Eddi|zuHause>always shoot the messenger :p
13:47*fjb hides.
13:49<AndreasB>Do you guys have any tips on how to create good lines?
13:50<fjb>Experience.
13:50<AndreasB>One mainline going from A to B ? then sidelines supplying it?
13:50<AndreasB>haha
13:50<AndreasB>fjb: +1
13:51*fjb usually lets it grow in an organic way.
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>i'm rather in favour of wide networks instead of "narrow" trunk lines
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14:03<V453000>build stuff rather small, and when it is insufficient, expand it
14:03<V453000>best way to learn
14:03<V453000>and the most fun way to lpay
14:11<AndreasB>But I need long lines. What I usually do is find a industry not too far away just to get income
14:11<AndreasB>then build longer
14:16<V453000>ok, and then you connect more industries
14:16<fjb>Sounds reasonable.
14:16<V453000>and build more trains to that line
14:16<V453000>and from a line is suddenly network
14:16<AndreasB>more resources you mean
14:17<V453000>industries kind of mean resources yes :)
14:18<AndreasB>You bring resources to industries.
14:19<V453000>k so what do you add to your network, industries or resources?
14:19<V453000>either results in more trains
14:20<AndreasB>not really, if you add an industry without having the resources for it :ppp
14:20<V453000>._.
14:21<V453000>aha you mean industry as the consumer
14:21<V453000>in openttd we call all of those things industries, calling the raw cargo producers primary industries, and the factories etc are generally called secondary industries
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14:44<AndreasB>:P
14:44<AndreasB>ok, you win
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15:02<@Alberth>o/
15:02<Djohaal_>hey eddi, any progress with the daylenght patch?
15:04<fjb>Moin Alberth
15:05<@Alberth>hi hi
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15:39<andythenorth>hmm
15:39<andythenorth>forgotten how to code autoreft :P
15:40<andythenorth>nvm, the spec knows :P
15:43<Supercheese>set the bitflag, make sure refit cost is zero
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15:44<andythenorth>so no need for cb?
15:44<andythenorth>spec says not
15:44<V453000>want my hints on how to code autorefit? :P
15:45<andythenorth>yarp
15:45<andythenorth>love em
15:45<Supercheese>if (IsBitflagSet && refit_cost == 0) then CBNotNeeded
15:45<V453000>dont code autorefit. :)
15:45<Supercheese>hahahaha
15:45<andythenorth>V453000: is autorefit evils?
15:45<V453000>300%
15:46<Supercheese>if you don't use the refit_cost callback for other reasons, you don't need to add it for autorefit
15:46<V453000>I dont think there is a single feature which would make less sense, including original train acceleration
15:46<andythenorth>I am agreeing, but probably for different reasons to you
15:47<andythenorth>I think the implementation is...needing some love
15:47*Supercheese likes it
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15:47<V453000>from a reason that could be familiar to you, if the player uses X cargoes, that means he needs to treat each one nicely, separately. Having trains automatically adapt means you always play with just one cargo
15:47<V453000>which is boring to say the least
15:48<andythenorth>'stuff'
15:48<V453000>stuff
15:48<Supercheese>Heh, "Simpleton grf", one cargo produced and accepted by every industry
15:48<V453000>imagine a firs game where all cargoes are basically the same
15:48<Supercheese>someone should code that :P
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15:49<juzza1>it would also have wagon speed limits
15:49<Djohaal_>the whole refit mechanic is unecessary gameplay lard IMO
15:49<V453000>you can do refit in depots by orders -> interesting refit networks
15:50<V453000>autorefit -> normal network without anything extra
15:50<Djohaal_>just lard
15:50<V453000>is something that adds interesting things to the game lard?
15:50<Djohaal_>yes
15:50<V453000>ok
15:50<V453000>wont even ask for an argument
15:50<andythenorth>refitting in depots smells of wee imho
15:51<Djohaal_>because it can be done much more elegantly with implicit refitting. In simutrans you can have a peice goods train hauling say... plastics, electronics and finished goods to a destionation
15:51<Djohaal_>or hoppers hauling coal, sand and iron ore without having to refit
15:51<Djohaal_>(obviously each hopper transports only one resource)
15:51<Supercheese>innit dat... autorefit?
15:52<V453000>andy refit is the best solution to firs. :)
15:52<Djohaal_>autorefit has some pitfalls. Say you need to have the good route to exist so cargodist can start sending goods trough that branch
15:52<Djohaal_>it turns into a catch-22
15:52<V453000>lol cargodist
15:52<Djohaal_>plus not all GRFs implement autorefit properly
15:52<V453000>competitor for best feature n2
15:52<Djohaal_>V453000: stfu
15:52<andythenorth>does autorefit work with cdist?
15:52<andythenorth>I suspect strongly that it doesn't
15:52<V453000>some newGRFs like nuts completely ignore autorefit for mentioned reasons
15:53<andythenorth>in fact, I proved that it doesn't
15:53<Djohaal_>andythenorth: I assume it shouldn't unless you manually run a haul first so the link graph forms
15:53<V453000>cdist doesnt make sense even without autorefit :)
15:53<Supercheese>^ that
15:54<andythenorth>if 'deliver cargo to stations only where there is a demand' isn't turned off, autoreft is silently borked
15:54<Djohaal_>and still, if supply wobbles the graph link might disappear
15:54<andythenorth>I am +0.5 to removing autorefit from the game
15:54<andythenorth>despite that I had to re-enginer my entire ship set to accomodate it
15:54<andythenorth> :P
15:55<Supercheese>I appreciated your work there :)
15:55<V453000>just dont use it andy :)
15:55<Djohaal_>it'd be a far more elegant if you could have carriages being able to carry certain "classes" of goods automatically
15:55<Supercheese>FISH autorefit is very very useful
15:55<Djohaal_>ie, simutrans solution
15:55<V453000>go play simutrans and leave openttd alone Djohaal_ you dont have the brains for it
15:55<Supercheese>keep is civil, gents
15:55<andythenorth>Supercheese: tried it with cdist?
15:55<Supercheese>it*
15:55<V453000>is awesome
15:55<Supercheese>Nein
15:56<Supercheese>I don't like cdist
15:56<Djohaal_>V453000: just go fuck yourself. Preferably with a 5 meter wood dildo.
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15:56<V453000>:>
15:56<Supercheese>Gentlemen, simmer down
15:56<andythenorth>Supercheese: try cdist :P
15:56<andythenorth>autorefit is borked with it :D
15:56<V453000>nobody gives a fuck and I am done with him Supercheese :)
15:56<andythenorth>sunday = sweary day
15:56<@Belugas>Djohaal_ that is quite harsh
15:56<Djohaal_>he deserves it
15:56<Supercheese>andy: no thanks, I've tried cdist several times and never liked it
15:57<andythenorth>still, at least our number one source of quitting is not here
15:57<@Belugas>nope, he did call names
15:57<andythenorth>tbh, we are way to polite around here on average
15:57<andythenorth>we should declare one day per month, no holds barred
15:57<andythenorth>it would be fun
15:57<Supercheese>seems like that's today
15:57*DanMacK slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large fishbot
15:58<Djohaal_>if you think the five meter wood dildo is bad I didn't even get started =p
15:58<andythenorth>DanMacK: you're too nice to be rude to ;)
15:58<DanMacK>lol
15:58<Djohaal_>actually, append "with splinters" to it
15:58<andythenorth>Djohaal_: you need to escalate more slowly, you have gone straight for the big stick :P
15:58<andythenorth>a good argument takes time to build :P
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15:58<Djohaal_>I like big things
15:59<Supercheese>The big stick is a Rooseveltian tactic
15:59<Supercheese>although likely not in the same way as was used here :P
15:59<Djohaal_>I am pretty sure wood dildos weren't a thing in teddy's time
16:00<andythenorth>go research some history
16:00<andythenorth>probably as old as tool-making
16:01<Supercheese>I'm not sure. I'd rather stay that way. :P
16:01<Djohaal_>actually I recall reading some news that they found some smooth stone sex toy in germany, dated some thousands of years
16:01<Supercheese>although I suspect andy is right...
16:01<Djohaal_>so yeah soapstone. Seems more confortable than wood full of splinters
16:02<Supercheese>you could do some empirical research ;)
16:02<V453000>your knowledge is shockingly awesome
16:02<andythenorth>hmm
16:02<andythenorth>what is Tourists?
16:02<V453000>ecs XD
16:02<andythenorth>should I make pax cars autorefit to handle it?
16:02<Djohaal_>I'd rather not, I'm not willing to use any material that wasn't invented in the last 4 decades for sexual toys. And somehow chat got derailed from autorefitting to sex toy material
16:03<Supercheese>autorefit to the Passengers cargo class takes care of it IIRC
16:03<V453000>the only derailed one is you Djohaal_ , we keep our topic
16:03<andythenorth>what is this 'autorefit to class' thing?
16:03<Djohaal_>derp
16:03<Supercheese>well, classes handled by the refittable_cargo_classes stuff
16:03<andythenorth>nah
16:03<Supercheese>bitmask(CC_PASSENGERS) or whatnot
16:03<andythenorth>but yeah
16:04<andythenorth>covered
16:04<Supercheese>should be fine to just allow autorefit then
16:04<andythenorth>the autorefit cb should be removed by the way
16:04<andythenorth>frosch123 ^ can I request that for future grf version?
16:04<andythenorth>it's broken fundamentally
16:04<frosch123>why is it broken?
16:04<Supercheese>I'm not sure any grf actually imposes a refit cost and then also allows autorefit
16:05<Supercheese>I think UKRS2 disallows autorefit conditionally, but doesn't impose refit cost
16:05<andythenorth>frosch123: it allows player to create invalid orders
16:05<andythenorth>we have no other case for newgrf controlling orders
16:05<andythenorth>afaik
16:06<frosch123>how do they create invaild orders?
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16:07<andythenorth>player can set up a 'go to x and refit' order, which the cb can silently deny, according to arbitrary conditions
16:08<frosch123>well, should create a newpaper maybe
16:08<andythenorth>it would be very hard for player to figure out
16:09<frosch123>there are way worse grf mechanics
16:09<frosch123>which make stuff hard to players to figure out
16:09<andythenorth>I think this one is too easy to accidentally include
16:10<andythenorth>I can't in fact see any valid case for the autorefit cb
16:10<Supercheese>I've caused the broken orders like that before
16:10<Supercheese>UKRS2's denial-of-autorefit
16:10<Supercheese>took me a while to figure out why cargo was piling up
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16:11<andythenorth>a vehicle should either be allowed to refit to all of its refittable cargos, xor none
16:12<andythenorth>hmm
16:12<andythenorth>from the spec for CB15E: "Negative cost factors allow refit revenue, useful for example if refits are used to change the number of articulated parts."
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>for andythenorth, everything he doesn't fully understand, is broken :)
16:12<frosch123>the gui filters for the autorefitable cargos
16:13<frosch123>as long as your cb does not depend on time or other silly stuff, it should be fine
16:13<andythenorth>digression - but htf do I even change the number of articulated parts based on refit?
16:13<andythenorth>that's nonsense
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>not the parts, but the "visible" parts
16:14<andythenorth>still nonsense in the spec
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>that half-sentence should probably not be in there
16:15<andythenorth>fixed
16:15<andythenorth>power of wiki :D
16:15<andythenorth>I have savegames somewhere btw showing that autorefit is broken, I don't just make this crap up
16:15<andythenorth>but nbm
16:15<andythenorth>nvm :P
16:16<andythenorth>specifically cb 15E should remain, but bit 14 should always be set
16:16<andythenorth>that would solve it
16:17<andythenorth>or bit 14 should be ignored by the autorefit check
16:19<frosch123>night
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16:19<Supercheese>andy: Fake subways does the autorefit-change-parts thing
16:19<Supercheese>subtype is no. of carriages
16:20<Supercheese>refitting to "more carriages" costs, refitting to "less carriages" refunds
16:20<Supercheese>of course, autorefit is not allowed
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16:21<andythenorth>fake vehicles ;)
16:22<Supercheese>it doesn't actually change articulated parts, of course
16:22<Supercheese>just changes them from invisible to visible, and their properties
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>the "fake" is not the vehicles but the underground :p
16:22<Supercheese>much like HEQS trams eh?
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: andythenorth knows that, because HEQS works the same way
16:22<Supercheese>ninja'd
16:22<Supercheese>:)
16:23<andythenorth>:P
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16:25<Supercheese>more coffee
16:25<V453000>java
16:26<Supercheese>I love the java jive, and it loves me
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16:35<Supercheese>Hmm, I should sign up for US English for the OTTD web translator, there's some strings that need fixing
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16:38<Supercheese>http://account.openttd.org/en/profile "This page is currently incomplete, but it will be finished in the very near feature."
16:38<Supercheese>http://web.archive.org/web/20090909135758/http://account.openttd.org/en/profile
16:39<Supercheese>:S
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16:59<V453000>:ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo nuts compiles without a single error or not refferenced message XD been a while since that
16:59<DanMacK>Thats nuts!
16:59<DanMacK>:P
16:59<V453000>at the time the silent command line for 15 minutes feels kind of boring :|
16:59<V453000>at the same time*
17:00<V453000>when it was outputting errors I was at least sure it is alive :D
17:00<V453000>thats not so nuts :(
17:00<Supercheese>aww, nuts
17:06<V453000>DanMacK: if you wanted to consult something like a table of colours for e.g. hopper cargoes, I have them somewhere :P
17:06<V453000>I have basically every cargo known in ecs/firs/pikka thing
17:06<V453000>so if you wanted to synchronize [or be lazy], I have recolour pixel things in my sprites prepared for sharing
17:07<andythenorth>hmm
17:07<andythenorth>recolour thingy o_O
17:07<V453000>not recolour sprites
17:07<V453000>.
17:07<V453000>:)
17:07<V453000>just pixel tables
17:07<andythenorth>ok
17:07<andythenorth>I could automate those in the compile...
17:07<V453000>also from what I understood, recolour sprites prevent you from using CC1 and CC2
17:07<V453000>which is ass
17:08<andythenorth>yup
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17:09<V453000>either way, if you wanted that, I have it ready ... better ask me though because I have many of them in many files and vast majority of them arent "latestů
17:09<V453000>"latest"
17:09<DanMacK>lmao
17:09<DanMacK>I planned to pilfer from CHIPS
17:10<V453000>chips has the piles quite ugly tbh :|
17:10<andythenorth>I am not loving chips piles
17:10<andythenorth>they match HEQS
17:10<andythenorth>I am not loving HEQS cargo colours
17:10<Supercheese>Yeah, I prefer ISR piles of stuff over CHIPS piles of stuff
17:10<DanMacK>well, its only a few pixels for hoppers
17:10<andythenorth>I could fix chips if someone could just do it for me :P
17:10<V453000>make it a lot of pixels to make it nice :)
17:11<Supercheese>ISR is GPL... :D
17:11<DanMacK>heh
17:11<andythenorth>ISR piles aren't nice
17:11<andythenorth>they don't fit one tile iirc
17:11<V453000>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/repository/changes/gfx/maglevhopper.png
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17:13<DanMacK>V453000, I think I'll use some of that if you don't mind
17:13<V453000>I absolutely dont
17:14<V453000>that is why I suggested them
17:17<V453000>anyway. good night
17:17<V453000>ps note that it also matters how you draw the things :P colours wont do everything
17:18<V453000>I have many hopper wagons in my repository, you could even copypaste some heaps if you want
17:18<V453000>if you need smaller ones, some medium loading stages might have those
17:19<V453000>esp https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts/repository/entry/gfx/SHI_S_hopper.png
17:19<V453000>bai
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17:23<Supercheese>I'm seeing a lot of conflicts between en_GB and en_US translations regarding {STRING2} vs. {STRING} vs. {RAW_STRING}
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17:24<Supercheese>Perhaps the code changed at some point and the en_US translation was never changed to match?
17:24<Supercheese>string-drawing code, that is
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18:00<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 23 00:00:32 2013