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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-09-23

---Logopened Mon Sep 23 00:00:32 2013
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00:35<qwebirc31517>hello
00:39<Supercheese>Salutations
00:41<qwebirc31517>i was hoping for help, i dont know how to accept an invite in openttd. My friend is trying to join my game and he said I have to click accept, but I do not know how
00:49<Supercheese>I don't do multiplayer, sorry
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05:09<kevin_>how do you get oil tankers to get oil from wells? whenever I try and click on refineries or wells when setting orders with a tanker it doesn't let me
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05:15<blathijs>kevin_: You need to build docks near them. The oil will be delivered to the docks (possibly only after the first oil tanker has been there) and can be picked up by the tanker from the dock
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05:16<kevin_>blathijs: docks for oil tanker trucks?
05:16<blathijs>kevin_: You never mentioned "trucks" and in my vocabulary, an "Oil tanker" is a ship :-)
05:17<kevin_>blathijs: oh hahahaah sorry
05:17<blathijs>kevin_: But, you'll have to build a bus station then (but use the cargo variant, can't recall what its called. Loading dock or something)
05:17<kevin_>okay gotcha
05:17<blathijs>loading bay perhaps
05:18<@planetmaker>truck station
05:18<@planetmaker>but depends quite on selected language ;-)
05:18<@planetmaker><blathijs> kevin_: You never mentioned "trucks" and in my vocabulary, an "Oil tanker" is a ship :-) <-- for me, too :-)
05:18<kevin_>hahaha
05:19<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Tutorial might help :-)
05:20<kevin_>planetmaker: I saw that but I couldn't find anything on trucks
05:21<@planetmaker>but it teaches that vehicles need stations. whatever vehicle type
05:22<kevin_>if I build the station near the refinery or well (like within the grid that says the area it serves) will the truck get the oil?
05:23<@planetmaker>well... it will tell you what the station can be provided with and what it does accept
05:23<kevin_>okay, thanks
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05:23<@planetmaker>in the ...
05:24<@planetmaker>that was quick ;-)
05:31<AndreasB>:D
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06:32<LordAro>/o
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07:30<AndreasB>o.O
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08:05<AndreasB>TheMask96: Didnt know people that young played openttd
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08:24-!-Bad_Brett [~bad@78-69-118-27-no42.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd
08:33<@planetmaker>heya Bad_Brett :-)
08:33-!-Dozer [Dozer@0x5e912f54.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd
08:33<Bad_Brett>hey planetmaker :-)
08:34<LordAro>/o
08:34<Bad_Brett>hey lordaro
08:34<Bad_Brett>a nice day for some newgrf development
08:35<@planetmaker>the repo is still empty though :-(
08:35<LordAro>planetmaker: the osx section of the todo list is outdated ;) (http://wiki.openttd.org/Todo_list#OSX_related for easy clicking)
08:36<@planetmaker>yes, that might actually be true
08:37<@planetmaker>actually and sadly ,so many todo lists are a bit outdated...
08:37<LordAro>:(
08:37<Bad_Brett>yeah, i got so frustrated last time that my entire push was rejected because of some thumbs.db files
08:37<@planetmaker>and patches provided to them... c/should get quicker review. As you might know yourself :-(
08:37<LordAro>i can provide links if you're offering :p
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08:38<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, given that you said that you carefully review of what to add I'm surprised that you added those :-)
08:38<@planetmaker>yes, I could also disable that check temporarily
08:39<Bad_Brett>i don't add them, they're added by the windows explorer... but on the other hand, i guess i can do a simple search and delete them before pushing
08:39<@planetmaker>but adding them to a repository is not a sane thing to do
08:39<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, *you* add them to the repository
08:39<@planetmaker>not every file needs be added
08:39<@planetmaker>you can for instance add the to the .hgignore
08:40<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, adding files to a repository needs more than their presence in the directories
08:40<LordAro>doing "hg add *" is not usually a good idea :p
08:40<@planetmaker>it's something you explicitly tell your version control programme
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>use "hg addremove"
08:41<Bad_Brett>there's is no way that i can manually select the files, so i have to use something like hgignore
08:41<@planetmaker>^ actually that's exactly what one IMHO shold NOT use
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>make sure .hgignore is set properly
08:41<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, sure there is
08:41<Bad_Brett>no, there isn't :-)
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08:42<@planetmaker>http://tortoisehg.bitbucket.org/manual/1.0/quick.html#add-files
08:42-!-alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has joined #openttd
08:42<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, every vcs (I know) needs an explicit command which adds a file so that it starts becomming tracked by it
08:42<alluke>is there anywhere template for ships?
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: what i think he meant was: there are too many files to pick them one-by-one
08:43<Bad_Brett>i may have 5000 new folders for a new push...
08:43<Bad_Brett>and 50 000 files
08:44<SpComb>doesn't sound like source code to me
08:44<@planetmaker>that's unhandy to do by hand :-)
08:44<@planetmaker>SpComb, of newgrfs?
08:44<SpComb>if they're generated files, they shouldn't be in source control :)
08:44<SpComb>do you edit those 50k files?
08:45<Bad_Brett>define generated
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>i guess they are rendered graphics
08:45<@planetmaker>it's a matter of how they're generated, SpComb
08:45<Bad_Brett>most of them are childsprites and such
08:45<Bad_Brett>very small images
08:45<Japa_>For high zoom sprites that are still 8bpp, do they go into a newgrf normally?
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
08:45<@planetmaker>Japa_, 8bpp or 32bpp or zoomlevel: no difference. yes.
08:46<Japa_>Oh, newgrfs can have 32bpp now?
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
08:46<@planetmaker>normally: depends. An author will need to provide them. I know only one NewGRF which provides 8bpp sprites for zoom levels larger than 1x
08:46<Japa_>Ossum.
08:47<Japa_>planetmaker, I was thinking of drawing some high zoom engines
08:47<@planetmaker>please do :-)
08:48<Japa_>Though all the current indian electrics look pretty similar
08:48<@planetmaker>does it need to be 'realistic' in that sense?
08:48<Pinkbeast>Form follows function, and all that. :-/
08:48<Japa_>I
08:48<Japa_>I'll probably differentiate them by color
08:48<@planetmaker>couldn't it simply be a train set with engines not from one country, but ... interesting engines for gameplay
08:48<Pinkbeast>Japa_: What about CC?
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08:49<Japa_>Pinkbeast, leave that to the wagons
08:49<V453000>just imagine your own trains Japa_
08:49<V453000>best approach
08:49<Pinkbeast>Japa_: It's up to you, of course, but I think it is best to provide a toggle between CC and "realistic" liveries.
08:49<V453000>you can always get inspiration from elsewhere, but ...
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08:49<V453000>randomized colours can also have CC :)
08:49<V453000>e.g. blue/red/green body with CC stripe
08:50<Japa_>Yeah, true
08:50<Japa_>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/WAP-7_class_electric_locomotive_of_Indian_Railways.jpg
08:50<Japa_>Here's the fastest indian engine, with the company colors on the pax wagons
08:51<Pinkbeast>Japa_: I would expect the CC version of that to have primary colour where it is cream and secondary colour on the stripe.
08:51<SpComb>draw a Electric-steam locomotive
08:51<Japa_>Making more then one color option is really not hard
08:51<Japa_>just replace values
08:51<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, anyway, if it helps you, I de-activate that 'bad files' filter for the first push. But permanently, rather not
08:52<@planetmaker>though it might be not too difficult to simply copy the current dir to a new one. add the thumbs file to hgignore and add the rest and push that
08:53<Bad_Brett>thanks, planetmaker. i will try again tonight. and yes, it might be wise for me to learn the hgignore thing
08:53<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, add to it all files which are
08:54<@planetmaker>*generated
08:54<@planetmaker>*backup files from programmes you use
08:54<alluke>i dont think company colors suit trains if you want to make them as realistic as possible
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08:54<Bad_Brett>yeah... and the python files
08:54<alluke>for some road vehicles and ships they work
08:54<@planetmaker>(like *.txt~ *.bak etc)
08:54<@planetmaker>why python files? Only the compiled ones
08:54<@planetmaker>*.py is no problem. *.pyc is :-)
08:55<V453000>I dont think making trains realistic as possible will lead in any interesting new train sets which differ from the majority
08:55<Bad_Brett>i was thinking about the nml compiler which also is located in my folder
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08:55<@planetmaker>err. do NOT add that
08:55<Bad_Brett>:-)
08:56<@planetmaker>make nml available in your path so that you have a completely separate dir for it.
08:56<@planetmaker>and that you can call nmlc from anywhere
08:57<Bad_Brett>yeah, i will do something like that
08:57<Bad_Brett>i have a pretty good structure now
08:57<@planetmaker>seems that NML needs an installer ;-)
08:57<alluke>V: i think theyll differ way more than if they all had same colors
08:57<Bad_Brett>so that won't be a problem
08:57<alluke>more colors = more variety
08:57<V453000>I didnt talk about difference in one engine
08:57<V453000>different train set = difference in gameplay
08:58<Dozer|>http://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_List planetmaker I'm taking a look at this entire list of different NewGRF files, and it looks relatively simple. I'm just curious, if I add train sets from fx both Hungary and Sweden, can they coexist, or will they create problems for eachother?
08:58<V453000>is what it should be
08:58<alluke>yes
08:58<V453000>just copying real trains wont lead in anything new
08:58<V453000>both visually and functionally
08:58<@planetmaker>Dozer, depends a bit on trainset. Usually it's no problem. It's only if the set author considers it one and makes it a problem ;-)
08:59<Dozer|>ah :D
08:59<alluke>but coloring them all with same color and changing the specs does?
08:59<Dozer|>planetmaker also, with stuff like stations, will I be able to choose from the different types, if enabled, or should I only have 1 type enabled at that point?
09:00<V453000>idk what are you trying to say by that alluke
09:00<Bad_Brett>by the way... it should be added to the nml wiki that, if you intend to use childsprites, all 4x zoom sprites and their offsets MUST be divisible by _32_, unless you want severe headache ;-)
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09:01<V453000>I basically said a reason of "realistic as possible" is not quite a good one for making a train set - while random colours can look nice especially if enhanced by CCs
09:01<alluke>that it leads in something new visually and functionally?
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09:03<V453000>I said the opposite? if you copy real trains, it leads to nothing new?
09:04<alluke>yes
09:05<V453000>-> ?
09:08<alluke>if you dont copy the real trains, but paint them in 2cc instead, it leads to something new?
09:09<V453000>certainly more new than copying every detail?
09:09<Japa_>If you have all locos painted with company colors, they can look boring
09:09<alluke>exactly
09:09<V453000>also the copying of visual appearance generally means to copying stats too
09:09<Japa_>That is, they all will be the same color.
09:10<Japa_>If you give each loco a different color sceme, they stand out from each other
09:10<alluke>dont think so,
09:10<V453000>which is why I suggest make random colour, with CC stripe for example
09:10<Japa_>V453000, I like that idea
09:10<alluke>pikka copied the appearance in his ukrs2 set, but threw the capacities from head
09:10<V453000>true pikka does it somewhat differently
09:10<V453000>at least a little bit
09:11<Japa_>Which sets have more than one passenger type?
09:11<alluke>tourists you say?
09:11<alluke>and rainbow-colors make 0 sense outside toyland
09:12<juzza1>ECS Town Vector
09:12<Japa_>ECS had tourists, yes
09:12<Japa_>I guess that works for what I was thinking of
09:12<alluke>juzza1, when will fts get tourist support?
09:12<juzza1>yesterday
09:12<Japa_>Tourist wagons and pax wagons looking different
09:13<Japa_>Mainly with tourist wagons being what in reality are the air conditioned coaches
09:13<Japa_>and then the non-ac ones being regular pax.
09:13<Japa_>main difference is the windows
09:14<V453000>I dont think colours need to make sense, they need to look nice
09:15<juzza1>not sure if many use the ECS sets nowadays. I recommend adding the tourist livery as a refit/random livery for the normal pax coach
09:15<alluke>me too
09:16<alluke>and rainbow-trains dont look nice outside toyland
09:16<V453000>I beg to differ
09:17<V453000>colours are always nice, especially in city networks
09:17<V453000>its not like the whole train has to be coloured that way, it can be just parts
09:18<alluke>exactly
09:18<alluke>i can have trains with red, blue, and green coaches at same time
09:20<Japa_>Hm...
09:21<@Belugas>hello
09:21<Japa_>I wonder how I can represent in-game the local trains we have here that carry far more passengers than the express ones, but have a much lower ticket price
09:22<alluke>ottd has no ticket prices
09:22<Pinkbeast>Japa_: To a first approximation you can't, because payment rates are controlled by other factors.
09:22<Japa_>Yeah
09:22<Japa_>I'll probably just put them at a far lower speed
09:22<Pinkbeast>Japa_: But since a primary factor is speed, if they are slow, they will also not earn much cash.
09:22<Pinkbeast>Japa_: They could also then be cheap to run.
09:23<Japa_>These are EMUs
09:23<NGC3982>Afternoon.
09:23<alluke>local trains are usually slower but have bigger capacity
09:23<alluke>making them more useful for highly populated routes with many stops
09:24<Pinkbeast>Japa_: But... a player who's playing for gameplay will almost always use the fastest thing possible. A simulationist player will use a mix of local and express stock as long as the stats make it possible, even if just using express would be more economic. So in a sense it doesn't matter too much.
09:24<Japa_>Right, right.
09:25<Japa_>Though, with my experience with cargodist, local trains are sorely needed for gameplay
09:25<Japa_>I'll probably just do something similar to the metro trains in the 2cc set, but using the same tracks
09:25<Pinkbeast>Japa_: Also, you wrote "If you have all locos painted with company colors, they can look boring" but it seems to me that if someone flips a toggle in a newgrf marked "CC vs realistic colours", they are saying that is what they would like, and don't try and second-guess them.
09:26<Pinkbeast>Japa_: Ah. I was going to say "stopping services, yes, but it still makes sense to use express stock", but 2cc does a neat job there with differentiated loading times.
09:26<Japa_>Yeah, I've decided I'll do company colors for now
09:27<Pinkbeast>Japa_: I think the only sensible alternative is a 3-way "really just CC / a bit of CC here and there / realistic" toggle
09:27<Japa_>Though different engines will may have the primary and secondary colors swapped
09:28<Pinkbeast>Japa_: Again... I wouldn't. If I turn on 2CC, I expect the primary colour will be primary and etc etc
09:28<Japa_>http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8433/7746028816_0eed69ea76_z.jpg
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09:34<alluke>japa: bad decision
09:34<Japa_>Fair enough
09:34<Japa_>I'll keep that for the realistic color option
09:34<alluke>ok
09:34<@Belugas>grrrrrr...
09:35<Japa_>Which I'll most likely skip because I never really use newgrf options
09:35<Pinkbeast>Japa_: Well, I do think there's room for a "middle" option, where one of those would be primary CC with a white stripe and one white with a primary CC stripe
09:35<Pinkbeast>... like the way freight locos are black lined with CC in UKRS2, or the way modern British locos might be 2CC with a yellow nose
09:36<alluke>us set has mainly relistic liveries, but some engines have some little detail in 2cc
09:36<alluke>stripe for example
09:43<V453000>a player who's playing for gameplay will almost always use the fastest thing possible <---- wrong :)
09:43<alluke>yes
09:44<V453000>people are just used to the fact that usually realistic train sets have the fastest train also strongest
09:44<V453000>typically 2cc or dutch trains for example
09:44<alluke>i use 50 kmh shunters for some routes where i could use 140 kmh mainline rockets but i dont want to
09:44<Pinkbeast>V453000: Yes, yes, NUTS advocacy aside
09:44<V453000>I didnt mention nuts yet? :)
09:45<Pinkbeast>V453000: I know, and now I've spared you from getting to it. :-/
09:46<Pinkbeast>OTTD does strongly incentivise the use of fast trains - not just by payments but by network availability - and it's no surprise that people tend to use them.
09:46<Pinkbeast>And yeah, short of pax vs. freight, any semi-realistic set is generally going to have fast=~powerful
09:46<V453000>I dont see how does openttd suggest to use fast trains except station ratings and payments
09:46<V453000>if you dont have good acceleration, you get jams
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09:47<Pinkbeast>V453000: For a given capacity per train and overall transport capacity, slower trains means more trains.
09:47<V453000>obviously people use the fastest trains if they are also strongest, why would they do otherwise, would make no sense
09:47<Pinkbeast>V453000: Er... yes, that is obvious, that's sort of my point
09:47<V453000>code slower trains with more capacity?
09:49<V453000>also, if faster trains jam, they wont have as high transportation power as stronger trains will
09:49<Pinkbeast>V453000: Yes, clearly that would change matters. But it's not how OTTD sets typically are (aside from pax vs freight engines)
09:49<V453000>-> ottd sets typically are bad?
09:50<Pinkbeast>V453000: I think that depends on what you want them to do, and no, I don't think they are at all.
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09:51<Pinkbeast>I think it's more that OTTD's payment model, time and distance "scales", etc do not make it viable to run (say) a slow branch line service with cheap locomotives. (Track newGRFs with speed limits help a bit there, I suppose, but run into the "money is unlimited" problem)
09:51<V453000>I want them to make any sense when choosing vehicles
09:51<V453000>money is irrelevant in game logic
09:53<Japa_>I'm gonna go ahead and assume it's a good idea to have an existing 4x zoom passenger carriage to draw my engine in front of, to make sure it kinda fits
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09:53<V453000>1x is enough :)
09:53<Pinkbeast>Japa_: A useful thing Pikka did for UKRS2 (and other people do) is to start with a rougly loading gauge size box
09:54<DanMacK>Working on a train set Japa?
09:54<Japa_>DanMacK, I'm starting with one engine, for now. Then I'll see what happens.
09:55<DanMacK>Cool
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09:55<Japa_>Pinkbeast, how you mean?
09:55<DanMacK>Haven't gotten into the coding side if things
09:55<DanMacK>Pikka has templates for various sizes as well as offsets
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09:58<DanMacK>what loco are you doing?
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09:59<Japa_>Indian high speed passenger electric
09:59<Pinkbeast>Japa_: Suppose you had a rectangular box - not solid - just the edges - resting on the railway line, so big that any carriage or locomotive would fit into it. Draw that, and now you have a guide to the overall lines of a sprite.
10:00<Japa_>Pinkbeast, I have that already. Just wondering if I should have wheels on there, and what size they should be, etc
10:00<DanMacK>Japa, you have the sprites?
10:01<Japa_>DanMacK, not yet, I'm just starting to draw them
10:01<DanMacK>OK, what loco are you doing? I have a bit of spriting experience and can give suggestions :P
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10:03<Japa_>http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/5/7/1057.1104277620.jpg
10:03<Japa_>This guy
10:04<DanMacK>2px for wheels
10:04<Japa_>I'll translate that to 8 because I'm doing a 4x zoom sprite
10:05<DanMacK>ahhh, yeah
10:05<Japa_>though maybe I should draw a smaller zoom first
10:05<DanMacK>might be easier to draw large then resize
10:05<Japa_>Yeah, I'll do that
10:05<Japa_>Well, if I draw small first, then I can resize it up and add detail
10:05<DanMacK>never done larger ones, I've just done 1X mostly
10:05<Japa_>smaller is less pixels to deal with
10:05<DanMacK>it is
10:06<DanMacK>but it's also a pain to change everything and detail when its sized up
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10:06<DanMacK>I've tried sizing up
10:08<Japa_>I'll do this one small first, then try the next one different
10:08<Japa_>and compare
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10:21<Japa_>http://i.imgur.com/yTkbbd5.png
10:21<Japa_>Hmm... getting the overal shape is kinda hard here
10:23<DanMacK>hmmm
10:24<Japa_>Am I on the right track, though?
10:25<DanMacK>yeah
10:26<DanMacK>I'd add a pixel on the end to reduce the slope
10:27<DanMacK>bbiab
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10:38<Japa_>http://i.imgur.com/PtbyfyP.png
10:39<Japa_>How does this look so far?
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11:01<alluke>juzza1: is pendolino 35% faster in curves than other trains?
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11:05<@planetmaker>Dozer, there's no general rule on what newgrfs you can combine successfully
11:05<@planetmaker>if there's one rule, it is that you can only have one industry newgrf (as they usually define cargos)
11:05<V453000>black magix of experience and trying
11:06<@planetmaker>but there are exceptions where NewGRFs do more than what their name suggests - and that can have side effects, leading to incompatibility with other things
11:06<@planetmaker>like trainsets defining a "regearing cargo". Or house sets defining industries.
11:07<@planetmaker>Or simply malicious authors which will disable their set or others if they find NewGRFs which they don't like
11:07<@planetmaker>we have those, too ;-)
11:07<juzza1>alluke: yes, they have the tilt bonus
11:08<@planetmaker>iirc openttd's tilt bonus is 20%
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11:10<alluke>cant that be adjusted?
11:15<@planetmaker>no
11:15<@planetmaker>well. yes.
11:15<@planetmaker>change source code ;-)
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11:18<DanMacK>pm, you're not referring to OzTrans are you? lol
11:20<alluke>is there boat drawing templates anywhere?
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11:21<alluke>id like to try drawing one boat
11:21<DanMacK>Use the FISH ones
11:22<alluke>about 10 meters long
11:22<alluke>danmack: where are those?
11:23<DanMacK>FISH repository
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11:31<alluke>danmack: whats the exact path? cant find any from graphics_sources or src/templates
11:33<DanMacK>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository/show/src/graphics
11:34<DanMacK>10m? What's the boat you want to draw?
11:36<alluke>little boat that carries passengers between island and city
11:36<alluke>http://www.uunisaari.com/images/slideshow/liikenne/20130304_liikenne_01.jpg
11:37<alluke>log tug seems to be about same size
11:41<DanMacK>Probably the harbour point utility ship
11:56<DanMacK>27 pass capacity, seems to be just right for that
11:57<Dozer>planetmaker thank you for the wise words! :)
11:58-!-Jap-mobile [~Japa@112.79.37.49] has joined #openttd
11:59<Jap-mobile>Oh god dammit. I was idling in #ottd and never noticed it was empty.
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12:13<alluke>hmm
12:13<alluke>how should i draw the roof shape
12:21<Jap-mobile>What do you got so far?
12:24<alluke>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/boat.png that
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12:25<Eddi|zuHause>the / view looks somewhat flat
12:26<alluke>yeah
12:26<alluke>the shape is hard to do
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>should remove some pixels at the bottom and add some at the top
12:27<alluke>well, the lower edges of the roof are straight
12:27<alluke>only upper is curved
12:27<alluke>forgot to do that in I -view
12:28<Jap-mobile>alluke: the lines far edges of the roof should be half the width
12:29<Jap-mobile>/
12:29<Jap-mobile>in that view
12:29<alluke>ill try
12:31<Jap-mobile>Basically, the part of the roof sloping away from the viewer needs to appear narrower than the one facing head-on
12:35<Jap-mobile>I posted an engine earlier that shows what I'm talking about, but I don't have the link anymore Cus I'm not at my computer.
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12:36<alluke>how does that look?
12:36<alluke>link is same
12:38<Jap-mobile>Quite a bit better, though now the topmost portion of each orange piece looks oddly flat
12:39<alluke>yeah
12:39<alluke>caught my eye too
12:39<Jap-mobile>Which is fine if they're more dome-like than they look in the I view.
12:39<Jap-mobile>They look like tarps billowing in the wind.
12:40<alluke>actually, they are tarp http://www.uunisaari.com/images/slideshow/liikenne/20130304_liikenne_01.jpg
12:41<Jap-mobile>Yeah, but that's quite a bit more stiff than the sprite looks
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12:58<Japa>What's the quickest way to see my sprite ingame?
12:58<Japa>Assume I care not about any stats or whatnot
12:59<alluke>photoshop :P
12:59<DanMacK>heh
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13:00<@planetmaker>Japa, that highly depends on what tools you're acustomed with, what you have available etc
13:01<Japa>I've never done it before, so have no tools
13:01<@planetmaker>personally I'd clone a similar project and hack my sprites into it
13:01<@planetmaker>then "quick" might be relative, depending on how accustomed you're to programming
13:01<Bad_Brett>wouldn't it be quicker do code a really basic newgrf?
13:02<DanMacK>or ask somebody that knows how to do it :P
13:02<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, why? If I can take an existing vehicle NewGRF and just replace some sprites there? It's easy :-)
13:02<@planetmaker>(or house or industry or new object, whatever)
13:02<@planetmaker>other than that, a very basic newgrf is: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/make-nml
13:03<@planetmaker>you can nearly be not more basic :-)
13:03<@planetmaker>well, slightly
13:03<@planetmaker>one can skip the preprocessor stuff :D
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13:04<Bad_Brett>i think the nml tutorial is a good start though
13:05<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/documents/28 might help, too
13:05<@planetmaker>and yes, the NML tutorial at http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial
13:06<@planetmaker>it may all look very complicated if you've never done something like this, Japa
13:06<@planetmaker>but... it looks more complicated than it really is :-)
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13:06<Bad_Brett>i don't know... this stuff is actually quite complicated :-P
13:06<Japa>I've worked on a program that reads the memory of a closed source game and displays a map of the current level in isometric tiles.
13:06<Bad_Brett>at least in my opinion
13:06<Japa>I think I can handle it
13:07<@planetmaker>good :-)
13:07<@planetmaker>don't be shy to ask, Japa
13:07*DanMacK doesn't touch coding... lol
13:08<Bad_Brett>oh, i have a question for planetmaker! :-D
13:08<@planetmaker>but you managed to get commit access, DanMacK :-)
13:08<Bad_Brett>how many ticks is house tile loop?
13:08<@planetmaker>and often newgrfs without graphics... are well... :-)
13:08<@planetmaker>lol. dunno
13:09<Bad_Brett>damn :P
13:09<@planetmaker>tile loop
13:09<@planetmaker>once per tick
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13:09<Bad_Brett>in that case re-randomizing should happen all the time, right?
13:09<Bad_Brett>i must have messed up then
13:10<@planetmaker>dunno
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13:11<@planetmaker>not actually sure that house tiles are ever re-randomized. Why should they?
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13:12<Bad_Brett>let's say i have 10 different sound effects and want to creat an irregular pattern
13:12<Bad_Brett>*create
13:13<@planetmaker>I don't see that house random bits are ever re-randomized
13:13<@planetmaker>once the house is built
13:13<@planetmaker>is there such callback?
13:13<DanMacK>true
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>tile loop is every 256 ticks
13:15<Bad_Brett>just like industry tiles then
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>and grass growth, and fence placement, and ...
13:17<Bad_Brett>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Random_switch
13:17<Bad_Brett>it should work for houses
13:17<Bad_Brett>according to that page
13:18<Bad_Brett>i've tried to call both the anim_control and the anim_next_frame callbacks with the random_switch, but re-randomizing only seems to happen from time to time
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>note that "triggers" don't work in callbacks
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>triggers are evaluated in some undocumented "CB 1", which means usually only the default chain is evaluated, and all triggers outside this chain are ignored
13:20<Bad_Brett>hmm
13:20<Japa>Do road and rail vehicles have the same length?
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes
13:20<Pinkbeast>Japa: That depends on the vehicle
13:21<Japa>Pinkbeast, in the sense of slapping my engine sprite on a road vehicle
13:21<Bad_Brett>in that case, it's not possible to add random sound effects to a callback?
13:21<Pinkbeast>Japa: If you mean "are they in the same scale", that also depends, but I would try for it if possible.
13:21-!-DanMacK [~63ffa3b9@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: the random switch works, just it won't rerandomize
13:22<Bad_Brett>yeah... just as i expected then
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13:22<Eddi|zuHause>you need a second random switch for the rerandomization
13:22<Bad_Brett>because the pattern is random in the beginning, but when the animation loops, so does the pattern
13:22<Japa>How worried should I be that somebody else might share my initials?
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13:23<Eddi|zuHause>Japa: we have a list of all GRFIDs that ever appeared on a multiplayer server
13:23<Japa>link?
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure planetmaker has that bookmarked :)
13:24<@planetmaker>Japa, I'd not be worried. There are about 2**32 grfIDs. we have maybe a few hundret distinct newgrfs
13:24<Japa>Okay
13:24<Bad_Brett>Eddi: should i call that switch directly from the random_trigger callback?
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: that sounds right
13:25<Bad_Brett>instead of calling my anim_control switch
13:25<Bad_Brett>okay, thanks, i'll try that
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>you can call the same switch from both callbacks
13:26<Japa>Can repositories in the devzone be downloaded as a single package, or are my options either downloading file by file, or installing mercurial?
13:26*Japa has no desire to install mercurial if he doesn't have to
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>you should really use mercurial, but i have no clue about your original question
13:27<@planetmaker>I would highly recommend to install that, though, Japa
13:27<@planetmaker>once accustomed to version control you'll not want to miss it
13:27<Japa>Oh, it's not that.
13:27<Japa>I just don't want to install a version control that's not gir.
13:28<Japa>git
13:28<@planetmaker>lol
13:28<frosch123>Japa: http://devs.openttd.org/~rubidium/newgrf.html
13:28<Japa>My laptop is already running low on space and is slow as all hell
13:28<@planetmaker>the bundle server has often source bundles of packages
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>Japa: well i'm fairly sure you can use git
13:29<@planetmaker>Japa, the hg install is certainly not bigger than an average newgrf repository ;-)
13:30<Japa>I'll install it once I need to start sharing stuff or contributing in general.
13:30<@planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/
13:31<@planetmaker>http://hgweb.openttdcoop.org/ might be useful, too
13:31<@planetmaker>hm, I wonder why redmine misses that "download repo as <whatever>" button
13:33*Japa facepalms
13:33<Japa>I already had HG installed
13:33<@planetmaker>lol
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13:36<longtomjr>HEy guys.. how do you know how much wagons you can put to a locomotive
13:36-!-Mucht [~Martin@000128e2.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:36<@planetmaker>you can attach as many till you hit the allowed train length
13:36<@Rubidium>16*64-1?
13:36<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: That depends on the locomotive, the weight of the loaded wagons, the terrain...
13:36<@planetmaker>the speed reached with max wagons is another question
13:37<@planetmaker>try what works for you
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>maximum train length is 64 tiles
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>with the default vehicle length that makes 1 engine and 127 wagons, with shorter wagons you can add more
13:37<longtomjr>How many wagons will not affect the top speed on flat land per 500hp
13:37<@Rubidium>as I said, roughly 16*64-1
13:38<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: That depends on the wagons.
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>500hp is not a lot
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>also, it depends on the acceleration model
13:38<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: There is (alas) no facility to estimate the speed of a train as there is in other railway games, short of experimentation.
13:38<longtomjr>Yep I know... How much hp does one wagon use
13:38<Japa>http://i.imgur.com/UueJWND.png
13:38*Rubidium assumes top speed of 1, wagon weight of 0, drag of 0, wagon capacity of 0, then... I guess it can be done ;)
13:38<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: That depends on the wagons.
13:38<Japa>So here's my sprite so far
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>Japa: i think the front looks too steep
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, gtg
13:39<Japa>It's supposed to be a little steep
13:39<Japa>but I'm not sure how to make it less steep and not flat
13:40<longtomjr>oh ok,,, Is there a sum to do that you can determan how many hp is used for one ton..
13:40<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: Also (generally speaking) a train with _just_ enough power to reach maximum speed will accelerate agonisingly.
13:41<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: No, because on the flat the factor informing steady speed is air drag not weight.
13:42<longtomjr>yep I know... I am just searching for a nice ecuation to work with...
13:42<longtomjr>*equation
13:42<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: It would never be HP/ton.
13:43<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: It's going to be a lot easier to create a new game, cheat yourself a pile of money, and experiment.
13:43<longtomjr>Ok... I guess
13:43<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: I would _like_ it if OTTD would provide an estimate of loaded speed in various terrain when assembling a train, but it doesn't.
13:43<@planetmaker>also air drag coefficient of engine. slope steepness play a role. rolling friction coefficient of rail type
13:44<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: Slope steepness does not play a role; "on flat land". :-)
13:44-!-oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
13:44<@planetmaker>yes. But there's rarely any rail route ingame which is perfectly flat. At least in my games
13:45<@planetmaker>and then there's newgrf strangeness... powered wagons, wagon speed limits, ...
13:45<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: Indeed, but that was the question that was asked (and it's quite practical to flatten a route once money becomes a non-issue...)
13:45<@planetmaker>I disagree
13:45-!-TomyLobo [~foo@91-65-113-111-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd
13:45<@planetmaker>Just buy appropriate engines for the trains :-)
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25796 /trunk/src/lang (7 files) (2013-09-23 17:45:58 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>croatian - 2 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<@DorpsGek>english_US - 53 changes by Supercheese
13:46<@DorpsGek>finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:46<@DorpsGek>german - 2 changes by Jogio
13:46<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 2 changes by UseYourIllusion
13:46<@DorpsGek>italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<@DorpsGek>slovak - 2 changes by Milsa
13:46<@planetmaker>and build such that corners don't slow down the train needlessly
13:46<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: I don't see that you can disagree with either part of that. The question was "on flat land", that is a simple fact, and it is in fact practical to flatten terrain once money is unlimited.
13:46<@planetmaker>*sigh*
13:46<@planetmaker>and it's indeed not practical, Pinkbeast
13:47<@planetmaker>not even necessarily feasible
13:48<Pinkbeast>I've *played* the sort of silly game where every train goes producer-consumer with no height transitions except those inherent in the positions of the industries (and even then you can position the stations up and down a bit), so...
13:49<@planetmaker>yes. Those people also never build diagonal rail lines. Just square pattern with 45° corners
13:49<@planetmaker>Disgusting as hell. Nor practical
13:49<@planetmaker>As any decently configured train will not mind a single slope
13:50<Pinkbeast>I certainly had diagonal lines in those games and I don't think "practical" means what you think it means. It's not the same as optimal or most aesthetically pleasing.
13:51<longtomjr>Hey guys... How can you edit one locomotive and carraige to have 1000 hp and 10t
13:53<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: http://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_development_tools (but why?)
13:53<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, I think "practical" in this way means "most easy to build". And that to me is simply dragging the rails. without terraforming
13:53<@planetmaker>and that works surprisingly well.
13:53<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: No, that is more akin to "optimal".
13:53<@planetmaker>just build the trains to be able to climb
13:54<Pinkbeast>Practical means more "not excessively difficult". If I want to get in the house, it's optimal to go in the front door, it's practical to go in the back door, and it's impractical to climb in the bedroom window.
13:54<@planetmaker>ok. In your idea "not excessively difficult": it's easier to terraform + build than just build? Strange...
13:54<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: Again you're speaking what is optimal.
13:55<@planetmaker>no
13:55<@planetmaker>I'm talking about the easiest way to build
13:55<Pinkbeast>It certainly is _easier_ to just build, but it is not difficulty to terraform.
13:55<longtomjr>I want to do it to work out the equation meself.. lol
13:55<@planetmaker>and that is to just lay tracks
13:55<Pinkbeast>*difficult.
13:55<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: Start from the source code?
13:55<@planetmaker>longtomjr, then checkout the equations in the source code
13:55<@planetmaker>reverse engineering it by observation will be impossible
13:56<Pinkbeast>The easiest option is not the only practical option. It is practical to make my stations look pretty with station sets.
13:57<longtomjr>I cant read source...
13:57<longtomjr>I only know python... And a bit of bash
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13:58<Pinkbeast>Then I'm afraid you're a bit stuck. (As planetmaker and I note, the theoretical maximum speed on the flat is rarely a useful thing to know).
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14:00<@planetmaker>so you can't follow an equation in English when you're a French native speaker?
14:00<longtomjr>Yep... But with that info you will be able to be used to calculate your route time...
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14:01<longtomjr>and with how many wagons,\
14:01<@planetmaker>wagons weigh differently... and differently again with cargo. Depending on how much they carry and what cargo they carry
14:01<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: No, you won't (even on a completely flat railway) because of acceleration times.
14:01<longtomjr>But the problem is finding where the equation is in the 3mil line french mathematics manual
14:02<Pinkbeast>... and then tractive effort rears its ugly head
14:02<@planetmaker>^
14:02<Pinkbeast>I'm looking at you, UKRS2 4-2-0 Crampton.
14:02<longtomjr>yep... But you will be able to calculate that to if you have the numbers
14:03<longtomjr>What is tractive effort
14:03<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: A measure of the amount of force the locomotive can bring to bear.
14:03<@planetmaker>for instance the curve looks like: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=751838#p751838
14:04<@planetmaker>and yes, OpenTTD *does* model that
14:04<@planetmaker>even though length units and time units are... game-adopted
14:05<longtomjr>oh yes... But whit a very complicated equation you will be able to calculate everything...
14:05<Pinkbeast>This is what (besides maximum speeds) divides pax and freight locomotives; an express pax locomotive may have high power, but its low tractive effort means it can't accelerate heavy loads from a stop.
14:05<longtomjr>Then you can write a little script and then you can play the most effective way
14:06<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: There isn't really a "most effective" way. A more powerful locomotive (with no worse T.E.) will always run around a given route a _bit_ faster.
14:07<longtomjr>lol... I think I am kicking a dead horse here... but it would have been nice if there was a calculator for that
14:08<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: In most sets with wagon and loco speed limits, the theoretical maximum speed for a practical consist is well above the speed limit of some component part.
14:08<@planetmaker>longtomjr, ground_vehicle.cpp:105
14:10<V453000>XD
14:10<@planetmaker>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/2b0aa98e8c8e/src/ground_vehicle.cpp#l105
14:11<Pinkbeast>longtomjr: What I mean is that if I take (say) a http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php/2-8-0_8F and tack steel open wagons from the same set (max speed 50mph) on the back...
14:11<Pinkbeast>... at the point the train's maximum flat speed gets down to 50mph, it's already unfeasibly huge, can't go up hills, and accelerates like a dog.
14:17<+michi_cc>Bad_Brett: If you want to use rerandomized together with callbacks in NML, you need to make a second, duplicate random switch, which 1) is called in the default (graphics) section, 2) branches to the same next switch/spriteset on all choices, and 3) is declared as dependent on the real random switch (to make sure it uses the same bits).
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14:34<AndreasB>Are there any way to replace old vehicle with same type auto?
14:34<AndreasB>is there*
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14:37<@planetmaker>yes. It's called "autorenew"
14:37<@planetmaker>and only works as long as you can still buy the vehicle
14:41<AndreasB>how do I turn that on?
14:42<Pinkbeast>AndreasB: IIRC there's a money threshold below which it won't happen.
14:43<AndreasB>16 million enough?
14:44-!-DarkAceZ [~BillyMays@50.107.55.36] has joined #openttd
14:44<AndreasB>ps. I am in multiplayter
14:45<Pinkbeast>AndreasB: OK, whatever the issue is, it's not cash. ISTR the default threshold is L100,000
14:45<@planetmaker>read wiki
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14:46<AndreasB>I fixed it another eway
14:46<AndreasB>I downgraded
14:46<AndreasB>next year or year after I upgrade again
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14:50<Japa>How do I figure out what tractive effort to put?
14:51<@planetmaker>whatever seems sensible to you :-)
14:51<@planetmaker>250kN is a strong and heavy engine
14:52<Japa>nevermind, I forgot to RTFM
14:52<Japa>where it says that it's set as a fraction of weight, and that rail has 0.3 as a good value
14:53<@planetmaker>that's the tractive effort coefficient. yes
14:57<Wolf01>o/
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15:03<Japa>http://i.imgur.com/4UM1PKZ.png
15:03<Japa>Hm...
15:03<Japa>Too light?
15:07<Pinkbeast>Japa: I assume like ~all modern equipment all the weight of the loco does rest on the driving wheels
15:07<Japa>Pinkbeast, I mean lightly colored
15:07<Pinkbeast>Japa: I'm just checking about tractive effort first.
15:08<Wolf01>http://www.flickr.com/photos/bricktrix/9876899614/ ò_O there's something strange in this picture
15:11<Taede>nicely done
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15:12<longtomjr>HEy guys... Any good guides to station building and signaling?
15:12<V453000>openttdcoop.org
15:16<Japa>I have no idea how I'm gonna do these windows
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15:24<Bad_Brett>looks like a swedish engine
15:26<Japa>http://i.imgur.com/xaiHgpd.png got the front windows looking a little better,I think
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15:37<Yuyuimg>hi
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15:39<Yuyuimg>hi
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15:45<Yuyuimg>hi
15:46<__ln__>again?
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16:03<Yuyuimg>hi
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16:10<andythenorth>he's friendly
16:10<andythenorth>nobody said hi back :(
16:11<__ln__>we need to increase funding for the greetings department
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16:16<andythenorth>get the bot to do it
16:16<andythenorth>DorpsGek: hi
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16:28<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: hi
16:28<andythenorth>bit slow DorpsGek
16:28*glx was away ;)
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16:54<Wolf01>'night all
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17:06<andythenorth>what's the go with using 4x sprites?
17:06<andythenorth>is it trivial?
17:06<andythenorth>does it increase nml compile times?
17:07<@Rubidium>the last is a "yes"
17:07<Bad_Brett>i can confirm that ;-)
17:07<@Rubidium>the middle is a "fairly close to trivial"
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Alternative_sprites
17:09<andythenorth>thanks :)
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17:14<Bad_Brett>hmm... i still don't get the re-randomizing to work... andy, is there any industry from FIRS that uses constant re-randomizing?
17:17<andythenorth>?
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17:28<frosch123>Bad_Brett: the important thing is that you put the triggers into the graphics chain
17:28<frosch123>if you want to use the randomness in a callback you need two random actions
17:28<frosch123>one for triggers, one for evaluating the random
17:29<frosch123>anyway, night
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17:32<andythenorth>bed time eh?
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17:43<Bad_Brett>thanks frosch123... too late :-P
17:57<Bad_Brett>damn, i still don't get it... can someone post the url to a nml file with randomness in callback?
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18:13<juzza1>i've done it (for vehicles) like it
18:13<juzza1>*like it's here at the bottom http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Random_switch
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18:21<Bad_Brett>thanks a lot
18:21<Bad_Brett>but wait... no link?
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18:21<Bad_Brett>:)
18:22<Bad_Brett>ah i see
18:23<Bad_Brett>but that switch block is only called when something happens, right?
18:24<juzza1>i dont really understand why it says "The last parameter <triggers> is optional and allows re-randomizing when certain conditions occur." but later "Note that re-randomizing is done only during a special callback, random_trigger."
18:24<Bad_Brett>yeah, i didn't get that one either
18:24<juzza1>well, this is how it works for vehicles:http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/finnishtrainset/repository/entry/src/wagons/wa_occ.pnml
18:24<juzza1>default "cb" calls the random switch
18:25<Bad_Brett>my problem is that i have a looping animation
18:26<Bad_Brett>so the callback anim_control starts the animation
18:27<Bad_Brett>and random values are generated
18:27<Bad_Brett>but, as long as the switch is active, i only get the same random values
18:28<Bad_Brett>in your case. you should get new values every time the player hits the refit button
18:30<Bad_Brett>...why am I doing this to mysel? :-P
18:34<juzza1>can you paste the code anywhere?
18:39<Bad_Brett>the code is huge... but i can make an example of what i'm trying to do
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18:46<Bad_Brett>hmm i might have accidently found the error
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19:55<AndreasB>trains go old so fast
19:56<AndreasB>I renew them when they are 2 years old
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20:24<Majson>yo
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23:15<retro|cz>Did you saw TTD 2013?
23:15<retro|cz>or TT
23:16<Eddi|zuHause>no
23:16<retro|cz>http://www.transporttycoon.com/
23:16<retro|cz>looks like locomotion
23:30<Japa>I got burned out from pixel art fast. Now I model. http://i.imgur.com/eLfJuFG.jpg
23:32<Eddi|zuHause>nice hover train :)
23:33<Eddi|zuHause>make sure you stay (roughly) within the bounding box
23:33<Japa>The roof sticks out a little
23:33<Japa>because otherwise the train is flat
23:34<Japa>Wheels aren't on there because my boss just called begging me to come to work on my day off
23:35<scshunt>Japa: wait. this is your job?
23:36<Japa>No, my job is not 3d related
23:36<Japa>anymore
23:36<Japa>but I have to go now instead of working on it
23:38<scshunt>bye
---Logclosed Tue Sep 24 00:00:34 2013