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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-09-26

---Logopened Thu Sep 26 00:00:37 2013
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02:44<dihedral>good morning
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03:45<@planetmaker>moin
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03:50<V453000>o/
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04:20<LordAro>/o
04:20<tdammers>hi
04:21<tdammers>question about FIRS: I have a port, and I deliver cargo to it like crazy, but it doesn't seem to ever produce more than 144 crates of engineering supplies
04:21<tdammers>have I hit a limit there, or is there a way to increase production more?
04:22<matkum>what is firs ?
04:22<tdammers>newgrf
04:23<matkum>ah, k
04:23<tdammers>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/docs/html/get_started.html
04:23<tdammers>replaces the industry chain
04:24<matkum>interesting, interesting. will try that. thanks
04:24<matkum>finally something new
04:24<tdammers>yeah... vanilla gets old at some point
04:25<tdammers>I like NARS, too
04:25<tdammers>makes managing trains a lot more complex
04:26<@planetmaker>tdammers, it might well be its maximum, yes
04:26<@planetmaker>what does its description say?
04:27<@planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/ <-- maybe its documentation knows, tdammers ;-)
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04:27<@planetmaker>mind to check the docs of the FIRS version which you use. It changes....
04:28<tdammers>yeah, I looked up the documentation, but I can't find anything about limits there
04:31<@planetmaker>tdammers, do you deliver all three required cargo types within 30 days?
04:31<@planetmaker>within the same month?
04:31<tdammers>yep
04:32<tdammers>the port is in Gung Ho mode all the time
04:32<@planetmaker>gung ho is max production
04:32<tdammers>so it never increases further?
04:32<@planetmaker>but I would believe it adjusts output to input... hm
04:33<V453000>no
04:33<tdammers>ok then
04:33<V453000>if gung ho, then gung ho
04:33<V453000>input doesnt matter in such case
04:33<tdammers>I just built a second port next to the first one
04:33<V453000>I like it, means you need to split traffic to multiple ports
04:34<tdammers>well, by now I have reached the point where I can just cough up the cash for building a port wherever I please without making a dent in my budget, so heh
04:34<@planetmaker>he... I'd solve it such that I make a terminal station. which then distributes by means of very short-route vehicles to different ports :-)
04:35<V453000>sub optimal if ports are all over the map far away :P
04:35<@planetmaker>yes. For ports next to eachother like suggested
04:35<tdammers>I built them both in the catchment areas of the relevant stations
04:36<tdammers>that might not have been such a good idea
04:36<tdammers>because now the old port still sucks up most of the cargo
04:36<@planetmaker>oh, not a bad actually. transfer delivered cargo to that station. and make short delivery routes with vehicles to the individual ports.
04:36<@planetmaker>but pickup can remain centralized thus
04:37<tdammers>yeah, I think I'll do that
04:38<tdammers>I have HEQS loaded, too, so I can actually haul quite a bit with road vehicles
04:38<tdammers>(the later trucks are actually *faster* for livestock than the best NARS trains...)
04:38<@planetmaker>:-)
04:39<@planetmaker>for deliveries over 5 tiles or so a train is totally the wrong vehicle category anyway
04:39<@planetmaker>just a loop with trucks in drive-through road stops can't be beaten in those cases :-)
04:39<@planetmaker>or two rows of opposing dead-end truck stops
04:40<@planetmaker>connected by + -type roads among all
04:49<tdammers>I like to make two loops with drive-through truck stops inside them, and then connect the main road such that the trucks use them in both directions
04:49<tdammers>practically doubles their capacity
04:49<tdammers>four truck stop tiles can then accommodate sixteen trucks
04:50<@planetmaker>yes, like that
04:50<@planetmaker>most bad-ass is to make a loop with truck stops which belong to alternating stations ;-)
04:50<@planetmaker>one delivery the other pickup
04:50<@planetmaker>it's a real money press
04:51<@planetmaker>if used with big station spread ;-)
04:51<@planetmaker>(yes, it's cheating)
04:51<@planetmaker>kinda
04:51<tdammers>depends, but yeah
04:52<tdammers>if the station really has to be huge because it handles massive amounts of cargo, then I wouldn't consider large spread "cheating"
04:52<tdammers>but if it's abused for walking, well...
04:52<@planetmaker>:-)
04:52<tdammers>then you can just cover an entire city with just four road station tiles :x
04:52<tdammers>that's no fun
04:53<@planetmaker>depends :-)
05:06<tdammers>hah, both port are in gung ho mode now
05:06<tdammers>nice
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07:27<oskari89>When did the OpenTTD developement start?
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07:28<oskari89>1999?
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07:37<Xaroth|Work>in the summer of '69
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07:54<blathijs>oskari89: The first version in the changelog (0.1.1) is from 2004, so before that at least
07:54<LordAro>no one knows when ludde actually started, do they?
07:55*blathijs wasn't around then
07:56<blathijs>First public version is also from 2004: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6559
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08:01<AndreasB>oskari89: Why do finland put letters on the end of names to make them "finnish" ?
08:01<AndreasB>I would assume "Oskari" is the same name as Oskar in norway?
08:02<oskari89>I dont know :P
08:02<AndreasB>Finland has got very weird names also, like Aama and Aapo
08:02<V453000>WHO KNOWS
08:02<AndreasB>Jussi
08:04<AndreasB>V453000: :P
08:05<AndreasB>you maybe?=
08:06<juzza1>heh
08:06<juzza1>my name is jussi
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08:09<@planetmaker>nah. V453000i
08:12<V453000>Y
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08:13<i>damn that kind of fucks up highlights XD
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09:21<DanMacK>Hey all
09:29<@Belugas>hello
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09:43<fjb>Moin
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10:13<LordAro>perhaps a dev can answer this: now that limits is part of the spec/stdlib, is the massive amount of defines in stdafx.h (l29-onwards) really needed? even for those 'strange' OSs/compilers? or is OTTD not properly c++11 yet?
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10:14<blathijs>LordAro: I don't think any of the strange OSs and compilers support C++11 yet
10:14<TinoDidriksen><stdint.h> you mean? That will work in all compilers from 2010 onwards, including VC++ 2010. It's not in 2008, which I think OTTD still supports.
10:14<blathijs>I don't even think GCC supports it completely yet
10:15<TinoDidriksen>GCC 4.8 has full C++11 language support. 4.9 will have full library.
10:15<TinoDidriksen>Clang has full both.
10:15<blathijs>TinoDidriksen: Cool.
10:15<TinoDidriksen>But just stdint.h you can use everywhere.
10:15<@planetmaker>removing support for old(er) gccs is not exactly desirable unless it makes things way more complicated
10:16<TinoDidriksen>(note stdint.h, not cstdint)
10:17<LordAro>even debian stable has gcc 4.7
10:17<LordAro>(well, 4.6 for powerpc and similar)
10:17<Japa>the worst thing is doing own implementation of stdint
10:19<TinoDidriksen>Since stdint.h is C99, it's in all GCC versions. stdafx.h claims MorphOS doesn't have stdint.h, which sounds bizarre...isn't that GCC?
10:19<blathijs>Wasn't morphos that OS that stuck to GCC 2.95?
10:20<TinoDidriksen>Oh ew...
10:20<TinoDidriksen>Breaking support for that should be considered an act of mercy.
10:20<blathijs>There was one a few years back that only did 2.95, but that might have been long fixed
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10:21<TinoDidriksen>It also says SunOS/Solaris doesn't have stdint.h, but Solaris 10 and onwards does.
10:22<TinoDidriksen>Seems the stdafx.h header is still mitigating for problems from 2006 that just aren't here today, with exception of VC++ 2008 - so, is 2008 support important?
10:23<LordAro>morphos appears to have gcc 4.2, btw: http://aminet.net/search?query=gcc
10:26<LordAro>got it: from 7 years ago: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/9036
10:27<Japa>MSVC 2008 doesn't have stdin.h, as far as I know, but 2010 does.
10:27<TinoDidriksen>'s what I said...
10:28<LordAro>TinoDidriksen: i mean http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/limits/ , btw
10:28<Japa>It is indeed.
10:28<LordAro>which is part of c++98, as far as i can tell...
10:28<LordAro>don't even need [c]stdint[.h]
10:28<TinoDidriksen>LordAro, <limits> does not define the stdint.h types or #defines, which is what stdafx.h emulates.
10:29<LordAro>but why are the defines needed? what's wrong with just "static const UINT32_MAX = std::numeric_limits<uint32>::max();" ?
10:29<LordAro>ottd is c++, after all
10:29<TinoDidriksen>Neither does <climits>. Standard C++98/03 has no idea what uint64_t or UINT64_MAX is.
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10:30<LordAro>it knows what a long int is
10:30<TinoDidriksen>But not long long
10:30<TinoDidriksen>long may be 32 or 64 bits, so you can't just ask numeric_limits<long>...
10:31<TinoDidriksen>You need stdint.h to get it right, or replicate everything stdint.h is doing for you.
10:31<LordAro>fine, i'll concede that point
10:31<LordAro>but you might as well do it the 'proper' way for the others
10:32<TinoDidriksen>Which is what? int may be 16 or 32 or 64 bits.
10:32<LordAro>how often is it not 32 bits though? is it really worth supporting those?
10:33<LordAro>OTTD itself basically makes sure of that: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/src/stdafx.h?rev=25798#L375
10:34<TinoDidriksen>I would also remove those in favour of stdint.h giving you concrete fixed widths, with no guessing or assertions needed.
10:36<LordAro>maybe, but i've never seen a bug report or anyone complaining about their compiler/os giving them a compile error at that point
10:37<TinoDidriksen>Agreed, current platforms stick to those, even if that violates the Standard.
10:38<TinoDidriksen>Strictly speaking, int must be the native CPU word size, which on 64bit CPUs clearly can't be 32bit - yet implementations keep it 32bit.
10:38<@planetmaker>LordAro, debian stable is also a newly released distro
10:38<@planetmaker>you can't generally assume that everyone has that. At least old stable should be supported, usually :-)
10:38<LordAro>i thought things seemed relatively up-to-date :)
10:39<@planetmaker>yes, they are...
10:39<LordAro>ok, gcc 4.4 in oldstable
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10:41<LordAro>but then again, a fair amount of c++11 was in gcc 4.4: http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cxx0x.html
10:41<TinoDidriksen>The only real issue against stdint.h is VC++ 2008 - but is that a concern, when 2010, 2012, and 2013 Express are free?
10:41<Japa>TinoDidriksen, winXP support?
10:41<Japa>:P
10:42<@planetmaker>how does the icc treat those things? what about mingw compiler in its packages? and yes, win 9x/XP support :-)
10:42<LordAro>2010 supports xp, iirc
10:42<TinoDidriksen>2010 deploys to XP.
10:42<TinoDidriksen>ICC and MinGW has stdint.h
10:42<Japa>Okay, then.
10:42<TinoDidriksen>It's C99, so they have it.
10:42<@planetmaker>and... osx compiler uses 4.0 or 4.2
10:42<Japa>There's really no reason to support it then
10:42<@planetmaker>gcc 4.0 or 4.2
10:42<TinoDidriksen>4.2
10:42<LordAro>oof
10:42<@planetmaker>TinoDidriksen, how do you know which one our CF uses? :-)
10:43<TinoDidriksen>Apple has been on GCC 4.2 for many years, since it was the last GPLv2 version. I can't imagine you'd still be on 4.0, or is that a 10.4 machine?
10:44<TinoDidriksen>Either way, they both have C99 headers...
10:45<@planetmaker>err... no... even 10.6 ships with 4.0 and 4.2
10:46<@planetmaker>and the CF might as well be a cross-compiler based on 4.0
10:46<@planetmaker>(yes, we cross-compile the osx on a linux machine :D )
10:47<TinoDidriksen>I've done a fair bit of homework on stdint.h support, as might be evident. I've enforced its use for some scientific software - old deployed OSs on various outdated hardware platforms? Universities got lots of those. stdint.h works everywhere.
10:49<@planetmaker>yeah, CF uses likely a custom-built gcc 4.0 compiler
10:49<@planetmaker>it's darwin-9. Which usually is 4.0
10:51<LordAro>you do realise 4.0 is almost as old as ottd? :L
10:54<LordAro>and don't most osx developers use clang now, anyway?
10:54<TinoDidriksen>Yeah, they do.
10:55<@planetmaker>yes, they do
10:55<@planetmaker>Will you build us a toolchain which cross-compiles with, say, SDK 10.7 or 10.8?
10:55<@planetmaker>on a linux host?
10:56<@planetmaker>As that's the real difficulty in this endeavour
10:56<LordAro>i'm sure you could find someone willing to compile natively
10:56<LordAro>(yes, i realise that's not a brilliant answer)
10:56<TinoDidriksen>No, but I got a Mac mini standing around doing my building...got an easy way to nightly build?
10:59<@planetmaker>LordAro, no, it need be accessible by the CF to run builds on demand, triggered by the CF
10:59<TinoDidriksen>How is that triggered? SSH?
11:07<@planetmaker>hm... https://confluence.atlassian.com/display/BAMBOO050/Bamboo+remote+agent+installation+guide
11:07<@planetmaker>but yes, we would need ssh to that server in any case
11:13<LordAro>anyway, i guess 'sorry' for my lack of thinking towards backward compatibility - i guess a combination of arch linux and watching http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/GoingNative/ over the last few days influenced me a bit and filled my head with lots of exciting things :)
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11:15<TinoDidriksen>I'll be so happy in mid-2015 when I can start using C++11 in production code...
11:15<@planetmaker>thinking compatibility sometimes sucks :-) But... it ensures also a happy userbase :-)
11:16<@planetmaker>what will have changed then, TinoDidriksen ?
11:16<TinoDidriksen>Ubuntu 10.04 LTS will drop out of support.
11:16<@planetmaker>if you use your own toolchain with possibly updated compiles...
11:18<TinoDidriksen>Unfortunately, I can't push that on the aforementioned universities with ancient setups.
11:18<@planetmaker>:-)
11:18<LordAro>make something awesome which only works on newer setups? :P
11:19<@planetmaker>if gcc < 4.8; then print "update, you dork"; else print "have fun!"; fi
11:20<LordAro>:D
11:21<LordAro>me and Alberth have not yet had to worry about backward compatibility with freerct - we both have gcc 4.8.1 and our userbase consists of about 100 people :L
11:22<LordAro>+ freerct is only really just out of the 'experimental' phase
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11:25<LordAro>http://freerct.org </shamelessplug>
11:25<@planetmaker>LordAro, that's something different really. New projects have no need for backward compatibility
11:27<LordAro>i know, we're just now probably going to go for full c++11 usage
11:27<LordAro>although you 2 have rather shaken my opinion on that :L
11:27<LordAro>(we already use static_assert, but are about to try [new to both of us :L] using shared_ptr)
11:28<TinoDidriksen>As a new project, I'd say go for it. Platforms will catch up as you code along. VS 2013 has very usable C++11 support.
11:29<TinoDidriksen>By the time you're ready for a wider audience, it shouldn't be a problem.
11:29<LordAro>ha, windows. currently, i don't think even mingw can compile it :p
11:29<LordAro>you're welcome to provide patches though :D
11:29<LordAro>(include/library issues, iirc)
11:30<LordAro>i do keep meaning to re-write the compile system
11:30<TinoDidriksen>...the compile system? You're not using something like CMake?
11:31<LordAro>no, no, but the configure script is fairly new (i committed 2 weeks ago :L) and the paths are all still hardcoded
11:31<oskari892>Can GameScripts used on dedicated servers?
11:31<TinoDidriksen>I suggest looking at CMake then. It works really well cross-platform.
11:31<oskari892>Or multiplay at all?
11:31<@planetmaker>of course, oskari892
11:32<oskari892>Okay :)
11:32<LordAro>TinoDidriksen: careful mentioning CMake around here, it's not well liked ;)
11:32<LordAro>+ writing your own is much more 'fun' :3
11:32<@planetmaker>creates the same amount of issues as it solves ;-)
11:32<LordAro>^ told you :p
11:33<TinoDidriksen>I use CMake for all my projects. Works wonderfully on all platforms and toolchains.
11:33<Japa>I like Cmake
11:34<LordAro>the only experience i have with cmake is in corsix-th, where it broke with my lua5.2 (wanted 5.1)
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand cmake, i seem to be missing some basic philosophy behind it
11:41-!-DanMacK [~63ffa3b9@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
11:41<DanMacK>Hey all
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12:45-!-planetmaker is "Ingo von Borstel" on @#openttd #oftc @+#openttdcoop +#openDune @+#openttdcoop.nightly +#openttd.dev @+#openttdcoop.dev @+#openttdcoop.stable #openttdcoop.devzone @+#coopetition @+#wwottdgd
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25799 trunk/src/lang/ukrainian.txt (2013-09-26 17:45:15 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>ukrainian - 59 changes by odisseus
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14:32<andythenorth>o/
14:36<andythenorth>@seen danmack
14:36<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 2 hours, 55 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
14:36<andythenorth>hmm
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15:31<DanMacK>Hey all
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15:51<LordAro>hmm. who here understands the rvalues and lvalues of c++11?
15:52<LordAro>something to do with "move semantics" whatever they are..
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16:03<frosch123>rvalues and lvalues are no c++11 thing :p they are normal stuff
16:03<frosch123>an Lvalue is something which can be on the Left side of an assignment operator, and Rvalue can be on the Right side
16:04<frosch123>Lvalue is more, because you can assign it. Rvalues can only be read
16:04<Prof_Frink>No, R-values are a measure of thermal insulation.
16:04<Supercheese>*rimshot*
16:05<TinoDidriksen>LordAro, Freenode's ##C++ (strict) and ##C++-general (friendly) are good places to ask about all of that. Yes, two #s
16:05<frosch123>lvalues are non-const references
16:05<frosch123>rvalues are const values and temporary variables
16:07<LordAro>TinoDidriksen: freenode is scary :)
16:07<TinoDidriksen>Some channels are, hence why I listed ##C++-general which is the friendly version of ##C++
16:08<LordAro>i might take a look
16:08<LordAro>i usually get good advice between here and stackoverflow though
16:08<LordAro>:)
16:08<TinoDidriksen>But really, ##C++ knows a lot...I've learnt so much from that channel in the past ~2 years.
16:08<LordAro>(despite the people here being a bit C-orientated :p)
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16:27<frosch123>i thought people here are python oriented
16:30<Xaroth|Work>fewer than you thought, apparently
16:31<Taede>theres probably both, and some others to boot
16:34<jjavaholic>I thought there would be more users here
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17:29<andythenorth>ain't it fun
17:29<andythenorth>good night
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17:35<Eddi|zuHause>jjavaholic: we more often get "boah i didn't think there would be so many" than "boah i thought there were more" though :p
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18:26<Wolf01>'night all
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20:33<supermop>hi
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---Logclosed Fri Sep 27 00:00:39 2013