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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-10-02

---Logopened Wed Oct 02 00:00:45 2013
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01:08<dihedral>good morning
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01:50<Supercheese>wtf, the Google homepage just completely changed
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02:34<@planetmaker>moin
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02:42<V453000>moo pm
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02:46<Supercheese>'night
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07:35<mygameuplay>anyone on?
07:35<mygameuplay>i need help
07:36<mygameuplay>who do i contact so that i record OpenTTD vids and then moentize them
07:36<mygameuplay>so that i have copyright permission to do so
07:36<Pinkbeast>mygameuplay: What on earth makes you think there's money in OTTD gameplay videos?
07:37<__ln__>mygameuplay: don't contact anyone.
07:37<V453000>I really wonder which idiot would pay for openttd videos
07:38<@planetmaker>put ads next to a youtube video probably counts as monetization
07:38<mygameuplay>its so I can receive moey from t
07:38<mygameuplay>it
07:38<V453000>:d
07:38<Pinkbeast>mygameuplay: That is the usual meaning of "monetization", yes. Why not tell us what a "video" is next?
07:39<__ln__>why not come up with a method to convert the in-game money into real money
07:39<@planetmaker>oh, that'd be nifty, __ln__
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07:39<@planetmaker>mygameuplay, so, does google / youtube ask you to obtain that permission before you may host a video?
07:39<Pinkbeast>__ln__: Why not a real-life daylength patch so you can live more and age less?
07:39<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, +1 on that, too ;-)
07:40<Pinkbeast>Although I'd want cargod*st too. I don't normally go to the station, get on the first train, and get off wherever it stops next.
07:40<mygameuplay>look
07:40<mygameuplay>i just need perm from someone so that i can do it
07:40<Pinkbeast>mygameuplay: There is no-one who can give you such permission.
07:41<blathijs>I wonder if a gameplay video constitutes a derived work from the graphics shown. If so, distributing videos with the original graphics would be impossible and usign OpenGFX the video would be licensed as GPL...
07:41<mygameuplay>i played CS
07:41<mygameuplay>and i needed perm for that
07:42<mygameuplay>even though it was decayed lite version
07:42<Pinkbeast>I always get a perm before I play CS. It's important that your hair looks good, don't you think?
07:42<V453000>seriously? how do you need permission to post things you recording your activity on your pc
07:42<V453000>law is fucked up if thats true
07:42<@planetmaker>loooook, Pinkbeast :-) I guess I just learnt a new word :D
07:43<V453000>wtf is CS, too
07:43<@planetmaker>counterstrike
07:43<V453000>I doubt it means Creative Suite in this case
07:43<Pinkbeast>It's a kind of riot gas, everyone knows that.
07:43<V453000>oh hm
07:43<V453000>you can shoot people there eh
07:43<@planetmaker>just like in OpenTTD. If you drive the apache or fighter plane
07:44<Pinkbeast>Why shoot people when you can stop their bus on a level crossing and steamroller them with a train?
07:44<@planetmaker>the submarine on the other hand is just curious and not offensive
07:44<mygameuplay>haha
07:44<@planetmaker>mygameuplay, the problem is: who should give you such permission?
07:44<mygameuplay>u guys are SOOOOO funny
07:44<mygameuplay>owner of openttd
07:44<@planetmaker>mygameuplay, the game has its license, that tells what is allowed and what not. The same goes for 3rd-party graphics, if you use any
07:45<@planetmaker>and then there's general copyright law
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07:45<@planetmaker>which in my eyes allows taking screenshots and gameplay movies under the provisions of "fair use" or so. but I'm not a lawyer
07:45<blathijs>mygameuplay: There is no single owner of OpenTTD (nor OpenGFX), so if you need any particular permission that is not covered by the license, you'd have to get permission from all contributors (that's dozens) separately
07:46<blathijs>mygameuplay: I don't know about the legal status of a gameplay video, especially wrt the GPL license. Like planetmaker says, it could be seen as fair use.
07:46<@planetmaker>nor am I the sole copyright holder
07:46<@planetmaker>so that view of mine is ... not overly relevant.
07:46<mygameuplay>ok
07:46<mygameuplay>thanks guys
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07:46<@planetmaker>he
07:46<blathijs>mygameuplay: I'm pretty sure that if you ...
07:47<@planetmaker>he's gone
07:47<@planetmaker>I really wonder. We also rather frequently get the same question via e-mail. I wonder where this all comes from
07:47<@planetmaker>I wished he had answered that question :-)
07:49<Pinkbeast>I think some big evil games company (EA?) has vaguely suggested you might need permission for LPs, probably as part of a shakedown, and whatever spammy ad company does this stuff is handing the problem off to the video authors.
07:50<@planetmaker>actually... OpenSFX may explicitly NOT be monetized
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07:50<blathijs>planetmaker: Perhaps from here: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/138161?hl=en
07:51<@planetmaker>yeah, I assume so
07:51<V453000>so nobody can make an openttd video with opensfx and put it on youtube theoretically? that sounds dumb
07:51<Pinkbeast>This is clearly a bit spurious because it's not like monetization makes a given video more or less of a copyright violation.
07:51<V453000>mhm yeah
07:52<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, not true. It depends on the rights you have
07:52<Pinkbeast>V453000: Nobody can do that and get money from Youtube for doing it, which is a state of the world I can live with.
07:52<@planetmaker>and "non-commercial" is found very often
07:52<@planetmaker>monetization clearly is commercial, though
07:53<V453000>youtube paying for views or whatnot is a strange idea on its own tbh :)
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07:54<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: Fair point, if you're in a jurisdiction where EULAs work on ordinary users.
07:54<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opensfx/repository/entry/docs/license.txt#L87 @ Pinkbeast - it makes for lenghty closing credits :D
07:55<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opensfx/repository/entry/docs/readme.ptxt#L167
07:56<blathijs>V453000: I think the OpenSFX limitations only apply if you need the license to get the right to publish your video. If you just post a short snippet that could be seen as fair use (or perhaps a "quote" which has special conditions in copyright law), then you don't need permission through the license and the license's conditions don't need to apply I think
07:56<@planetmaker>add to that http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/entry/docs/readme.ptxt#L287 and http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/tags/1.3.0/readme.txt#L637 and it's quite long :-)
07:57<@planetmaker>yes, what blathijs says
07:57<@planetmaker>I mean, it's good that youtube raises an awareness for the issue that you cannot simply put online everything
07:57<@planetmaker>but it has to be seen in relation really
07:58<@planetmaker>and the knowledge of what constitutes a quote, what 'fair use' (or its equivalent) is often not well communicated as everything focuses only on copyright, copyright and forbidding to copy/share/distribute
07:58<@planetmaker>without mentioning the actual rights users have
08:01<Pinkbeast>I think the saintly desire to "raise an awareness" has very little to do with it. :-)
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08:03<@planetmaker>btw, Ristovski if you have an issue again to pull from a repo, use for now http://rhodecode.openttdcoop.org/PROJECTNAME
08:04<Ristovski>planetmaker: Okay!
08:04<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, sure, it's selfish. They need to maintain their safe-harbour thing to not become eligible for issues themselves
08:05<@planetmaker>which is also why they exercise a first ban, then ask policy, like so many
08:05<@planetmaker>(which in my eyes is totally distorted part of the law)
08:06<Ristovski>planetmaker: what is the issue btw
08:06<Ristovski>hg server crashed?
08:06<@planetmaker>no, not really. But effectively the hg web backend is acting up
08:07<@planetmaker>so I guess we need to replace hgweb by something more suitable
08:08<Ristovski>Ah, ok
08:10<Ristovski>planetmaker: I cant seem to find any NML compiler for Archlinux, any ideas?
08:10<Ristovski>(like source code of it)
08:10<@planetmaker>python needs no compilation. Just get a checkout of the NML repository
08:10<Ristovski>ok
08:11<@planetmaker>it's also easier to update then :-)
08:11<Ristovski>Yeah, :P
08:13<Ristovski>planetmaker: I only found it in bundles.openttdcoop, where can I find the repo>
08:14<@planetmaker>[14:01] <planetmaker> btw, Ristovski if you have an issue again to pull from a repo, use for now http://rhodecode.openttdcoop.org/PROJECTNAME :D
08:14<@planetmaker>with PROJECTNAME = nml
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08:14<Ristovski>*drops head on table*
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08:15<@planetmaker>:-)
08:15<Ristovski>Now I cant find python-plex
08:15<Ristovski>grr, damnit arch
08:15<Ristovski>python-ply actually
08:15<@planetmaker>actually, the source is also on the bundles server...
08:16<Ristovski>Meh, i found it in AUR
08:16<@planetmaker>just not as repository but as tar ball
08:16<@planetmaker>yes. and python-imaging (or python-PIL)
08:17<@planetmaker>btw, python need be python 2.6 or python 2.7 (maybe 2.5, not sure)
08:18<Ristovski>i only found PIL for python3
08:18<@planetmaker>eh... that doesn't exist :-)
08:18<@planetmaker>that must be pillow actually
08:18<Ristovski>Yeha
08:18<Ristovski>yeah*
08:19<Ristovski>Well, I guess I cant have the dev opengfx :C
08:19<Ristovski>doesnt matter
08:19<@planetmaker>that doesn't matter
08:19<@planetmaker>PIL and pillow also exist for python2
08:19<Ristovski>Not in arch seems like
08:20<Ristovski>Ill search for source later
08:20<@planetmaker>python2-imaging
08:20<@planetmaker>https://www.archlinux.org/packages/community/i686/python2-imaging/
08:21<Ristovski>Oh, thanks
08:22<Ristovski>"ImportError: No module named ply.lex"
08:22<Ristovski>But I have python-ply
08:22<@planetmaker>for python3?
08:23<Ristovski>Let me check
08:23<Ristovski>planetmaker: Derp, yup
08:25<Ristovski>planetmaker: cant I just use easy_install?
08:25<Xaroth|Work>don't use pil
08:25<Xaroth|Work>use pillow :|
08:25<Xaroth|Work>pil has been deprecated for ages
08:26<Xaroth|Work>and pip install ply
08:26<Xaroth|Work>should work
08:26<Xaroth|Work>(if pip isn't available, easy_install pip )
08:26<Ristovski>it works now
08:26<@planetmaker>no idea, Ristovski. try?
08:26<Ristovski>planetmaker: Yup, works
08:26<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: might be useful to make a requirements.txt
08:26<Ristovski>thanks for helping
08:26<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> monetization clearly is commercial, though <-- my non-lawyer-y opinion says no to that. for "commercial" you need to get a _significant_ amount of money. (like more than 400€ per month, over all your similar activities)
08:26<Xaroth|Work>so you can tell people to do pip install -r requirements.txt
08:27<Ristovski>Xaroth|Work: good idea
08:27<Xaroth|Work>that also allows you to force a version for a library
08:27<@planetmaker>if NML needs that: please provide patch(es)
08:27<@planetmaker>it could actually use that well, I think
08:27<@planetmaker>it has something with buildout. But not sure in what shape it is...
08:28<@planetmaker>adding something to faciliate easier install is on my list... but... not exactly high up
08:28<@planetmaker>my list is anyway longer than I could do in my life :D
08:28<Ristovski>planetmaker: might be bug in Makefile? "/bin/bash: -m: command not found"
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>sadly, lawmakers often leave the part of "what is commercial" open for the judges to decide
08:28<@planetmaker>maybe... I guess it's a missing dep, though
08:29<@planetmaker>you have grfcodec installed, Ristovski ?
08:29<@planetmaker>you need that, too. For the md5sums
08:29<@planetmaker>(rather the associated grfid)
08:29<Ristovski>planetmaker: How am I supposed to "sudo make install" when it tried to run mercurial as root
08:29<Ristovski>>inb4 "not trusting untrusted user"
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08:29<@planetmaker>err, what?
08:30<Ristovski>planetmaker: if i run sudo make install in opengfx
08:30<Ristovski>it spits out "not trusting file /home/rafael/opengfx/.hg/hgrc from untrusted user rafael, group rafael"
08:30<@planetmaker>you first ran make?
08:30<Ristovski>planetmaker: Yes?
08:30<@planetmaker>hm :-)
08:30<Ristovski>"For security reasons, Mercurial only trusts hgrc files owned by the user running Mercurial. Settings from untrusted files will generally be ignored."
08:30<@planetmaker>then install is broken
08:30<@planetmaker>I guess I didn't test that in ages
08:30<Ristovski>planetmaker: Yup
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i guess it's the part that gets the revision?
08:31<@planetmaker>make a symlink from ~/.openttd/baseset /path/to/opengfx-dev
08:31<Ristovski>planetmaker: Ugly hacks, but ok
08:32<@planetmaker>well, if you want to toy with it, it might be hack, yes. But... easier to update really
08:33<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, what?
08:33<@planetmaker>the revision thing for getting version? Well, yes. But for install it should not be needed. And for builds from tar ball neither
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08:36<Ristovski>"HG ?= $(shell hg st >/dev/null 2>/dev/null && which hg 2>/dev/null)
08:36<Ristovski>RE_FILES_NO_SRC_BUNDLE = ^.devzone|^.hg"
08:36<@planetmaker>ah, hm, I guess I know where that comes from... all the variables are initialized also when not used
08:36<Ristovski>planetmaker: That?
08:37<@planetmaker>one of them
08:37<@planetmaker>but the latter... no
08:37<Ristovski>planetmaker: I peek'd at Makefile, only occurance of HG that has some command
08:37<@planetmaker>Ristovski, look for $(HG)
08:38<@planetmaker>there's many
08:38<Ristovski>yup
08:38<Ristovski>true
08:39<@planetmaker>without configure script I can't really get rid of them in a sane way
08:40<Ristovski>Make one then :D
08:41<@planetmaker>I thought about that often. I didn't yet find enough gain in that
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08:48<Ristovski>planetmaker: or you can autogen.sh, then ./configure, and as alternative make cmake :D
08:49<Ristovski>or scons, because lets make everything hard
08:49<@planetmaker>I could do many things
08:49<@planetmaker>Doesn't mean I will ;-)
08:49<Ristovski>:P
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09:08<DanMacK>Morning all
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09:27<@Belugas>hello
09:28<V453000>hy
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09:29<@Belugas>sir Beer!
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09:31<@planetmaker>V453000, do you have a sprite which shows all (or most) of your cargos without being loaded on a vehicle?
09:31<@planetmaker>*spritesheet
09:31<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:32<V453000>partially pm
09:33<V453000>e.g. each wagon spritesheet has the wagons, some spritesheets even have cargoes aside
09:33<@planetmaker>I'm just looking for some nice ideas which could show cargo in general... and I'm too lazy to re-invent the wheel :D
09:33<@planetmaker>ah
09:33<V453000>for the latest ships I have .psds with cargo layer
09:33<@planetmaker>and it needs to fit on 20x20 px just to get the idea :-)
09:33<@planetmaker>ah, that'll be helpful
09:33<@planetmaker>got a link? in the nuts repo?
09:34<V453000>no, it isnt there
09:34<@planetmaker>I was thinking of using one of the usual 'cargo crates'. But maybe there's something nicer :-)
09:34<V453000>I can upload it when I get home, but iz large
09:35<V453000>might export it for you just as a png for show
09:35<@planetmaker>no rush and no worries, I can handle that
09:35<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=54549 <-- basically I'm thinking about buttons for that
09:35<V453000>but yeah, will do :) remind me if I dont
09:36<V453000>isss that a correct link?
09:36<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1098622#p1098622
09:36<@Belugas>salut planetmaker :)
09:37<V453000>idontgetit pm :|
09:37<Xaroth|Work>o/ Belugas
09:39<@planetmaker>called "improved order window"
09:39<@planetmaker>removing the need for the many drop-downs, etc
09:40<V453000>oh, showing cargo in general
09:40<V453000>I see
09:40<V453000>and you need icons for those things
09:41<V453000>but yeah a clicky button order window would not just be nice as there would not be the dropdown, but mainly because the order list would get so much more visible what is where
09:42<@planetmaker>well, not so much cargo, but the different orders. Like unload / load / transfer / (yes, maybe refit to cargo would work, but that's then the actual cargo icon)
09:43<@planetmaker>my idea is to have unload like a cargo moved down (arrow). transfer like cargo with arrow through... well. I need to draw that :-)
09:43<V453000>when I was making (large) icons for junctionary, I did a black wagon with arrow out of it / into it
09:44<V453000>perhaps something like a small black box imitating wagon with some arrow like that would work nicely
09:45<V453000>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Junctionary_-_Stations
09:47<@planetmaker>maybe. I need to experiment a bit
09:48<V453000>say if you needed a hand :)
09:52<@planetmaker>well. It needs button for a)unload if accepted b)unload also if not accepted (=transfer) c)load d)full load
09:53<@planetmaker>and e)refit to most waiting cargo
09:54<V453000>omfg e) :)
09:57<V453000>b) needs two?
09:57<V453000>unload vs transfer
09:57<@planetmaker>I don't think so. As forced unload is the same as a) and b) combined
09:58<V453000>hm
09:58<V453000>will consider things
09:58<V453000>quite wtf things to express in an image tbh :P
09:58<V453000>cya for now
09:59<@planetmaker>yeah. And bye :-)
09:59<@planetmaker>could be simple text buttons. But that uses more screen real estate
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10:23<@planetmaker>Deliver, Unload, Load, Full load, (Refit) available
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11:00<roboboy>gnight peoples
11:13-!-DanMacK [~63ffa3b9@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
11:13<DanMacK>Hey all
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13:21<V453000>planetmaker: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/SHIP_FLATBED_only_cargo.png
13:38<frosch123>glass ships?
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13:42<DanMacK>Hey V, is NUTS on BaNaNaS?
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25806 trunk/src/lang/japanese.txt (2013-10-02 17:45:11 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>japanese - 1 changes by guppy
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14:02<V453000>of course it is DorpsGek
14:02<V453000>DanMacK:
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14:17<AndreasB>bf4 beta :D 1min45 sek left @27 MB/s
14:17<AndreasB>sec
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14:18<andythenorth_>o/
14:18<andythenorth_>DanMacK: hi hi
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14:19<Wolf01>hello :D
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14:22<@Alberth>hi
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>apparently no nml coder ever had the need to read any ttdpatch flag
14:27<@Alberth>or they just used the ones common with OpenTTD ?
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14:34<frosch123>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:General#General_variables <- Eddi|zuHause: that page lists a bunch of them
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>then i didn't find those in the nml source
14:38<frosch123>now you can grep with the name :p
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14:48<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but that page lists a "ttdpatch_flags" variable that is certainly nonexisting
14:48<frosch123>yup, quite sure about that as well
14:49<frosch123>but it has dynamic_engines and stuff
14:52<frosch123>ttdpatch_flags would be a 128 bit variable or some nonsense like that
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15:21<andythenorth>DanMacK: o/
15:30<arand__>Is there any mod out there that balances planes so that they are not so much easy money as they tend to be?
15:31<andythenorth>hmm
15:31<arand__>Or any settings recommendations?
15:31<andythenorth>turn down plane speed, use maintenance costs
15:31<andythenorth>or try AV8 grf
15:31<andythenorth>(AV8 has it's own ideas about speed and maintenance, so do one or the other)
15:32<andythenorth>or use base cost mod grf and increase plane running costs
15:38<arand__>Ah, looks like some good options, thanks. Hoping to make our games less of a plane fest :)
15:41<@Alberth>set max number of planes to 0 :)
15:42<V453000>^
15:42<andythenorth>wait for V453000 to do planes :P
15:42<V453000>yeah you can wait for that
15:42<@Alberth>you may never play a game then :)
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>rail-planes? :p
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17:02*Zuu counts to 2208 API symbols in the GS API. (methods + enum constants)
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17:29<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25807 extra/musa/grfid.py (2013-10-02 21:29:36 UTC)
17:29<@DorpsGek>[musa] -Fix: Enforce 'int' type of uniqueid, in case of 'long' being returned by swap(reader.read_dword())
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17:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25808 /trunk/src/script/api (game/game_company.hpp.sq script_company.hpp) (2013-10-02 21:44:31 UTC)
17:44<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r25788): [Script] INVALID_EXPENSES should be called EXPENSES_INVALID in the script API
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17:47<frosch123>night
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18:15<Wolf01>ìnight
18:15<Wolf01>*'night
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