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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-10-05

---Logopened Sat Oct 05 00:00:49 2013
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00:17<lovergirl>http://Fun4Days.com/sms/sms.php?share=178616
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00:21<kristal>totally not a fishing link
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02:24<@planetmaker>moin
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02:47<Pikka>boin blanetbaker
02:50<V453000>helo :)
02:54<@planetmaker>oh, a Pikka, salut :-) And salut V as well :-)
02:59<V453000>moo moo
03:00<@planetmaker>heritage vehicle set: horse-towed mail carriage. cow-towed cargo wagons. horses as express passenger transport :D
03:00<@planetmaker>and dragons as express flight :D
03:01<@planetmaker>hell of many animations necessary there
03:02<V453000>nothing is impossible to happen :)
03:03<Pikka>flying cows and
03:03<Pikka>wombatbuses
03:04<kristal>Is there a zepplin plugin?
03:04<@planetmaker>+1 Pikka :D
03:06<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/dux.png :>
03:06<V453000>its alive
03:06<V453000>hm the link isnt yet :D
03:06<V453000>now iz
03:08<@planetmaker>omg!
03:08<peter1139>Canals with signals :S
03:08<@planetmaker>all those poor ducklings
03:08<@planetmaker>slave-labour!
03:09<V453000>:)
03:13<V453000>peter1139: you dont have to build signals :P
03:13<V453000>with Slight disadvantages, but still :D
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04:11<@Terkhen>hello
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05:35<@Alberth>moin LordAro
05:35<LordAro>/o Alberth :)
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05:50<wakou2>good morning ottders.
05:51<wakou2>Could someone please help me with my memory, On here people were discussing bridges, and someone linked to a German website for bridge enthusiasts...
05:51<wakou2>Ring any bells?
05:52<@Alberth>@log
05:52<@Alberth>hmm, wrong magic word :p
05:53<@Alberth> http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/last?count=50 anyway, this log may be helpful
05:53<@Alberth>otherwise, I have no idea
05:54<wakou2>TY Albert :) It was a long time ago......
05:54<wakou2>Are you German Alberth?
05:54<@Alberth>http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/ ?
05:55<@Alberth>wakou2: no, and neither am I ottder :)
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05:56<wakou2>Alberth: No, it was a site about bridges IRL, pictures and information about european bridges, staistics, architects dates etc
05:57<@Alberth>oh, a usual off-topic topic thus :)
05:57<@Alberth>I don't remember it, so I wasn't there, I think
05:57<LordAro>@logs
05:57<@DorpsGek>LordAro: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
05:57<LordAro>^Alberth ;)
05:58<@Alberth>LordAro has all the magic words :)
05:58*LordAro tested with a pm to DorpsGek first ;)
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05:59<@Alberth>you're too much awake at this time :)
06:00<LordAro>it is odd indeed :p
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06:20<wakou2>I think I found it... http://www.brueckenweb.de/2content/datenbank/listen/laenderindex.php#.Uk_jp_ER34k
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06:21<wakou2>Would there be a word in De. for a person who likes bridges? In Eng. I guessed at pontophile, but that apparently means favouring the deep ocean.
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07:31<@Alberth>o/
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07:44<frosch123>moin
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11:02<LordAro>this is awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPRA0W1kECg
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11:19<frosch123>LordAro: make a 10 hour video of bogo sort
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11:20<LordAro>it'd be interesting if it managed to solve a list of that size in that time ;)
11:20<LordAro>bogobogo sort sounds more fun, anyway :p
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11:34<oskari892>Did someone work on different size and -layout towns?
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11:37<supermop>hi
11:37<oskari89>In addition of current ones
11:38<supermop>can railtypes have custom foundations?
11:38<supermop>or custom ground sprites?
11:40<frosch123>you can make the gravel cover more of the ground sprite
11:40<frosch123>but railtypes were specifically designed to work with different landscape sets
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11:41<supermop>hmm
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11:41<frosch123>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action3/Railtypes#cargo-type <- anyway, that's the list of stuff you can replace
11:41<supermop>when rails are built on a foundation, do they just reference the plain grass sprite to be their ground sprite?
11:42<frosch123>railtypes do, yes
11:42<frosch123>the foundations themself do not include any grass
11:42<supermop>ah oh well
11:42<frosch123>they are the same for houses and industries
11:43<supermop>i was hoping i could have a railtype use a clear blue foundation
11:44<supermop>or have some combination of groundsprite and foundation to make the rail look like it was built on a little viaduct alongside the slopr
11:44<supermop>namely for monorail
11:45<supermop>as the idea of building a retaining wall, backfilling with earth, then digging out a channel for the monorail to run through looks a bit silly
11:45<supermop>it would be neat if you could use custom sprites to make it look like the monorail was built slightly elevated along the slope
11:46<supermop>hmm 1 sec i will try to draw
11:46<frosch123>i know what you mean :)
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11:52<oskari89>Hmm.....
11:53<oskari89>I'm thinking that if changing snowlines are possible, would it be possible to have frozen sea level and rivers too?
11:53<oskari89>Though ships would look a little strange to plow trough ice
11:54<frosch123>frozen rivers are possible
11:55<frosch123>i think ogfx+ might actually have them
11:55<frosch123>or maybe also only canals
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12:00<supermop>frosch123: so this is not really possible?
12:00<Flygon>It'd be nice if OpenTTD had far more climate flexibility
12:00<supermop>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=48605&p=1099069#p1099069
12:00<Flygon>It'd be nice if, for example, that beautiful 2048*2048 map of North America didn't have a Mexico with snow in it
12:00<frosch123>supermop: only for stations :p
12:01<supermop>sigh
12:01<Flygon>Last I checked, Roswell wasn't exacty sub-arctic :p
12:04<supermop>is there any desire for non-station items to have custom foundations in the future, or would that be a bad idea?
12:07<supermop>i wonder if there is a better way to fake an alweg style monorail
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12:25<oskari89>I'd say...
12:25<oskari89>Roadtypes could be nice :)
12:26<oskari89>Towns could have connections to each other with gravel roads
12:27<oskari89>And industries could have automatical connections with gravel roads to "main roads" between towns
12:27<oskari89>Limited speed of course, so one couldn't use them too easily
12:27<oskari89>70-80 km/h or so
12:28<oskari89>Scenery looks quite plain without any additional roads between towns
12:28<oskari89>After scenario generation
12:28<oskari89>And industries look lonely too
12:29<oskari89>One could convert those roads to asphalt roads with a tool :P
12:30<oskari89>When implementing roadtypes, one could make also diagonal roads
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12:31<@Alberth>ever tried drawing them at a grid?
12:33<frosch123>or as dalestan asked 6 years ago: can you imagine 4 road vehicles in parallel on one tile
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12:40<oskari892>I think overlays should solve grid-issues :P
12:41<oskari892>As it is the case with railtypes
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12:50<Wolf01>hello
12:53<@Alberth>hello
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25812 trunk/src/lang/brazilian_portuguese.txt (2013-10-05 17:45:16 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>brazilian_portuguese - 4 changes by Tucalipe
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14:13<oskari89>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=40844&start=920
14:14<oskari89>I wonder how "far away" the moreheightlevels patch is of trunk inclusion? :)
14:15<@Rubidium>at least 50 trunk bug fixes?
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14:26<oskari89>:P
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14:39<andythenorth>so is there any reason I shouldn't code train wagons as articulated vehicles, composed of n 1/8 long parts
14:39<andythenorth>?
14:39<Supercheese>Strange interaction with air drag effects
14:39<Supercheese>one wagon should generate x drag
14:39<Supercheese>but an articulated "single" wagon does not do that
14:40<supermop>make the bogies separate from the car body
14:40<Supercheese>it generates, presumably, somewhere around 2x drag
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14:40<Supercheese>so you have to faff around with extra callbacks to "fix" that
14:40<Supercheese>or set the drag lower in properties...?
14:40<andythenorth>hmm
14:41<Supercheese>lemme find the Pikka-post
14:41<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1054201#p1054201
14:42<Supercheese>so yeah, set the drag lower by 1/x, where x is number of articulated parts
14:42<Supercheese>might fix things
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14:42<andythenorth>hmm
14:42<andythenorth>ok
14:44<Supercheese>Pikka just removed the articulation entirely: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1057951#p1057951
14:44<Supercheese>I dunno if he tried to fix it and it wasn't easy, or he just said "meh, lame feature anyway, not worth coding fixes"
14:45<andythenorth>gah
14:46<andythenorth>I'm trying to provide vehicles with lengths between 4/8 and 10/8
14:46<andythenorth>and the only way to do 10/8 is articulated
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14:47<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Use the CETS code generator?
14:47-!-zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd
14:48*Supercheese wonders how CETS handles the air drag business
14:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how are you handling 10/8 vehicles?
14:50<andythenorth>or at least > 8/8?
14:50*andythenorth has been baffled for days by this
14:50<Supercheese>I can think of a few ways
14:50<Supercheese>1) Use invisible parts to fix the spacing
14:50<Supercheese>2) Split bogies
14:50<Supercheese>3) Split wagon itself (would look odd)
14:51<andythenorth>oh I'm using invisible parts
14:51<andythenorth>that bits
14:51<andythenorth>easy
14:51<andythenorth>the problems are:
14:51<andythenorth>- I assume I have to put the sprites on the center vehicle, not the lead
14:52<andythenorth>which makes the code byzantine, and prevents use of loading / loaded sprites in normal way
14:53<andythenorth>- some vehicles have tenders
14:53<+michi_cc>The CETS script contains magic to split the graphics into three parts for straight movement (which also makes tunnels not glitch), but displays a single sprite on the center vehicle during turning (and of course with more turning stages).
14:53<andythenorth>so having a 10/8 articulated engine, (two 1/8 invisible parts) followed by a visible part is hard to specify
14:53<+michi_cc>All vehicles have three parts, no matter which size as this is necessary for the turning angles anyway.
14:54<andythenorth>what about case above - steam engine with tender?
14:55<+michi_cc>Two three parts vehicles.
14:55<andythenorth>ok that could work
14:56<andythenorth>do articulated vehicles have any performance implications?
14:57<+michi_cc>Everything has performance implications :p
14:57<andythenorth>significant ones? :P
14:58<+michi_cc>No.
14:58<andythenorth>ta :)
15:04<Supercheese>Is CETS... nfo?!
15:04<Supercheese>I can't find any processed nml output
15:06<+michi_cc>It's python, i.e. all NML output is generated during make
15:09<Supercheese>any final nml output anywhere? am I just missing it at bundles?
15:10<Supercheese>ah, there's one of an old revision
15:10<Supercheese>Whew, 8.8 MB
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15:22<+michi_cc>In the newest CETS revisions NML was degraded to an intermediate step as compiling the set from a single NML file takes too long. Nowadays the "prefered" way to do build it is by using a patched nmlc to output NFO that is concatenated and fed to grfcodec (e.g. http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/push/v4954-2/cets.nfo)
15:23<Supercheese>I figured something like that may be the case
15:23<Supercheese>Hmm
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16:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, basically each engine gets an nml file, which is processed by nmlc to nfo, then from the nfo the common headers are split off to get a combined nfo file, which is the again handled by grfcodec
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16:37<Supercheese>Well, how does CETS hangle the air drag coefficients for articulated vehicles?
16:38<Supercheese>Set invisible parts' to zero?
16:39<frosch123>doesn'T only the front part define air drag?
16:39<Supercheese>See the pikka post I linked above
16:39<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1054201#p1054201 to be precise
16:42<frosch123>ah, each artic part increases air drag by 0.15
16:43<frosch123>how weird
16:43<frosch123>what is the idea behind that?
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16:43<Supercheese>Dunno
16:43<frosch123>or should it be train length instead?
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16:44<Eddi|zuHause>i think there was some weirdness with air drag, which was "solved" by decreasing it
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>but that was oberhümers doing
16:44<frosch123>this->gcache.cached_air_drag = air_drag + 3 * air_drag * number_of_parts / 20;
16:44<frosch123>air_drag is from the front, it is scaled by (1 + 0.15 * num_train_parts)
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16:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and that can't fully be scaled by dividing air drag
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>so it's probably unsolvable
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>i think the name of the commit was something like "reduce air drag so vehicles can reach their top speed"
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16:47<frosch123>what has that to do with the formula above?
16:48<frosch123>what's the idea behind airdrag being affected by number of parts?
16:48<frosch123>it is about the train length
16:48<frosch123>or is it about the gaps between wagons?
16:48<frosch123>one could replace the num_parts with either the real length, or with number of wagons (not counting artic parts)
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes, i think the reasoning is gaps between wagons
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: not counting articulated parts may make sense
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>was this ever specified anywhere?
16:50<frosch123>not that i know of
16:54<frosch123>otoh, using multiple artic parts for a single wagon is a more modern usage of artic parts
16:55<frosch123>it used to be multiple wagons which are just bought together
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17:00<xaver>hi, how can i change via rcon the engine_renew setting
17:01<frosch123>that's a company setting
17:01<frosch123>you need to join a company, then change it via the normal settings gui
17:01<frosch123>the server has no such setting
17:01<frosch123>resp. none that would matter
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>well, can the server join companies? :)
17:06<Taede>[22:05:33] <@Taede> !rcon move 1 1
17:06<Taede>[22:05:34] <Lestat> ERROR: Silly boy, you cannot move the server!
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17:20<oskari892>How funny
17:22<oskari892>"Assertion failed at line 672 of c\bamboo-agent-home\xml-data\build-dir\ottd-nightly-w64bit\src\widget_type.h: num >= 0
17:22<oskari892>"
17:22<oskari892>When clicking "object" button
17:23<frosch123>there is likely a fix of that already on fs
17:23<frosch123>just noone comitted it
17:24<frosch123>i recall sbr posting a diff
17:24<LordAro>so commit it? :p
17:25<frosch123>i always plan to review all the bugs "tomorrow"
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18:01<Eddi|zuHause>"industries already have a window, so buying them shouldn't be hard" is a very "promising" beginner's idea of how coding works :p
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18:17<frosch123>night
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19:12<AndreasB>How come openttd.conf isnt saved when I do save_config
19:17<FLHerne>AndreasB: openttd.cfg, surely?
19:18<AndreasB>yes
19:18<AndreasB>correct
19:19<FLHerne>Would be better if I had any answers to the actual problem, wouldn't it? :L
19:19<__ln__>"isn't" surely
19:19<AndreasB>yep FLHerne
19:19<AndreasB>__ln__: Go to bed
19:20<FLHerne>At least my poke would be useufl if you were mistakenly looking for the wrong filename
19:20<FLHerne>__ln__'s is just pointless :P
19:20<FLHerne>As opposed to almost certainly but not entirely pointless
19:21<AndreasB>-rw-rw-r-- 1 andreas andreas 9979 Oct 5 19:12 openttd.cfg
19:21<__ln__>FLHerne: well, the language on this channel should be english. not misspelled english.
19:21<AndreasB>saved config in rcon
19:21<AndreasB>Oct 6 01:13 openttd.cfg
19:21<AndreasB>:OP
19:21<AndreasB>It did it§
19:21<AndreasB>That idnt.. oh well
19:22*FLHerne -> bed
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19:22<AndreasB>infrastructure_maintenance = false
19:22<AndreasB> :S
19:22<Wolf01>'night all
19:22<__ln__>night Wolf01
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19:22<AndreasB>now it doesnt save again
19:23<__ln__>"doesn't" surely?
19:23<AndreasB>Sun Oct 6 01:15:45 CEST 2013
19:23<AndreasB>doh
19:23<AndreasB>I just set infrastructure to TRUE, and saved config
19:23<AndreasB>its still false in cfg
19:23<__ln__>it's
19:24<AndreasB>__ln__: Go die
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19:24<AndreasB>(Actually, dont do that.. would be bad)
19:24<__ln__>AndreasB: please don't be impolite
19:25<AndreasB>hammertime
19:26<Supercheese>Just use an autohotkey script to automatically insert apostrophes
19:26<Supercheese>s'what I do :)
19:27<AndreasB>lol
19:27<Supercheese>i.e. I type "dont" and it converts it immediately to "don't"
19:28<Supercheese>Sadly, it cannot cover the its/it's situation
19:28<Supercheese>but that's just bad, it's the exact opposite of every other possessive case in the language, so it seems
19:29<Supercheese>but eh, whatcha gonna do
19:32<__ln__>using such a script sounds slightly cheating, but who cares, it produces readable and nice output. :)
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>"dont" might be a valid word in french
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20:04<Supercheese>Good thing I don't read or speak French, then
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21:28<kristal>Sigh, I wish there was a persistent world form of OpenTTD
21:28<Supercheese>World of OTTD
21:28<Supercheese>Only $15/month
21:28<Supercheese>pre-order now!
21:29<Supercheese>;)
21:35<kristal>I was more thinking $5 a year.
21:35<kristal>$15 a month for any mmo is insane, hosting MMOs is cheap, economy of scale.
21:36<AndreasB>Ehm
21:36<AndreasB>What direction on map is considered north?
21:43<Supercheese>Hmm, how to translate "scroll bar" to Latin
21:44<AndreasB>LKOL
21:46<Supercheese>?
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 06 00:00:50 2013