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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-10-09

---Logopened Wed Oct 09 00:00:54 2013
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02:22<dihedral>hello
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06:48<bon>do any of you know if callback 14B or 14C has ever been used or not so much that its just more of 'we know its in the spec' thing?
06:48<bon>re industrial grfs mm
06:50<V453000>no nml? :d
06:50<bon>no :)
06:53<@planetmaker>bon, unlikely that it's not used, if it's in the specs (though not totally impossible)
06:54<bon>can see why a player probably wouldn't like a randomized industry but I still had to ask about that callback now. thanks ^_^
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure andy was very close to using those for ports
06:55<@planetmaker>randomized cargo is being used
06:55<@planetmaker>afaik. But be very very careful about it. It will annoy users a lot
06:55<bon>even although its nothing related to ottd I do actually know the port in railroad tycoon indeed always come randomized :->
06:56<bon>indeed, just like I thought planetmaker
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06:56<Eddi|zuHause>it is well known that RRT3 had a big influence on FIRS
06:56<@planetmaker>and break the industry chain view as it only checks statically
06:56<bon>rrt3? I never ever did play that thing much beyond trying a demo of it for a few minutes at early release
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>that's a missing feature of the industry chain view, though
06:57<bon>I do own rrt2 and the expansion for it tho
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06:59<bon>I did found the rrt2 port to provide queer options sometimes. for example you could dump passengers in exchange for getting iron ore
07:00<@planetmaker>you "did found" or "did find"?
07:00<V453000>the randomized cargo productions are quite wtf :| should call it different industries tbh
07:00<bon>v453000 yeah thats what I had somewhat suspected but this talk pretty much confirms it
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07:18<V453000>HELLO
07:19<tigeroo>hello
07:19<__ln__> HELLO
07:20<bon>mm?
07:20*bon was here the whole time
07:21<V453000>netsplit :)
07:22<tigeroo>crazy stuff
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07:27<LordAro>it seems my power supply is dying
07:27<LordAro>anyone got any advice?
07:28<SpComb>wait for it to catch fire
07:28<LordAro>D:
07:28<V453000>I declare that a good advice
07:29<peter1139>Possibly better advice: replace it.
07:30<LordAro>i'm not entirely convinced it is though
07:30<LordAro>it was making a not-very-nice noise
07:30<LordAro>but now it isn't
07:31<LordAro>vacuuming (seemingly initially) had no effect
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07:34<V453000>hammer fixes anything
07:34<LordAro>either way, i think i'll keep http://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-Builder-Series-Bronze-Supply/dp/B009RMP2VE/ in my basket, at least
07:34<LordAro>V453000: yes, the Jeremy Clarkson method :)
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07:45<bon>sorry browser issues heh
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08:55<AndreasB>lol noob
08:57<Sturmi>says the noob #1
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09:00<AndreasB>Right
09:00<AndreasB>Pausers
09:00<AndreasB>thats what you are
09:00<AndreasB>.#
09:00<AndreasB>now shut the fuck up, and leave me alone
09:01<@planetmaker>don't spam here. No foul language. And please be as tolerant with being named as you name others, AndreasB
09:02<AndreasB>Well fuck you too then
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09:04<V453000>LMFAO
09:05<V453000>apparently everything is bad cause you cant shoot people in it
09:06<V453000>BTW pm this was all just a cute discussion where he was agressively against Public Server ever pausing XD
09:06<@planetmaker>lol. I just saw the rant in #openttdcoop :D Bad time for him, eh? :D
09:06<V453000>quite
09:06<@planetmaker>yeah. Stupid
09:06<V453000>unfortunately whole world was against him
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09:31<@Belugas>hello
09:34<@Belugas>GY!BE - 09-15-00
09:37<peter1139>:-)
09:40<@Belugas>thank you sir, so much!
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10:03<peter1139>Quite.
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10:11<peter1139>Holy shit, it's past 3pm already :S
10:20<@Belugas>done not much, I assume?
10:21<peter1139>Mmm
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10:56<Bad_Brett>i finally got that ssh thing to work
11:00<@planetmaker>o/
11:01<Bad_Brett>hello planetmaker
11:01<Bad_Brett>the pushing works properly now :-)
11:01<@planetmaker>great :-)
11:06<Bad_Brett>i wonder, when i upload things to the repo, is there any ...license?
11:07<@planetmaker>no. and yes.
11:08<@planetmaker>DevZone is home to open-source projects
11:08<Bad_Brett>yeah i know
11:08<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/issues/new?tracker_id=6&issue[subject]=Applying%20for%20project:%20%3Cname%20here%3E&issue[priority_id]=7&issue[watcher_user_ids][]=4&issue[watcher_user_ids][]=3&issue[watcher_user_ids][]=115&issue[Category]=something&issue[description]=Hello,%20I%20would%20like%20to%20request%20a%20project%20on%20your%20DevZone,%20my%20work%20is%20or%20will%20be%20GPL%20and%20therefore%20legitimate%20to%20be%
11:08<@planetmaker>20hosted%20from%20you.%20More%20infos%20follow is the default request for new projects
11:09<@planetmaker>hm
11:09<@planetmaker>bad link :-)
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>long url is too long
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>didn't we discuss a shorter url once?
11:10<@planetmaker>well :-) the URL basically contains the issue text :D
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:10<Bad_Brett>i just added the last part, no problem there
11:10<@planetmaker>no, don't create such issue now, Bad_Brett :-)
11:11<Bad_Brett>:-)
11:11<Bad_Brett>anyway
11:12<@planetmaker>anyway, there's no license information added automatically to a project. But I will insist on an OSI-approved license being used, preferentially GPL v2+
11:12<Bad_Brett>alright, so i'm allowed to pick a license?
11:13<@planetmaker>well, yes. What do you have in mind?
11:13<@planetmaker>I very much would like to urge GPL v2+... to keep it easy to collaborate
11:13<Bad_Brett>the thing i want to avoid is, for example, that someone copies every house and include them in their own grf before mine is released
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11:14<Eddi|zuHause>well, that would be "no derivatives"
11:14<peter1139>Difficult to prevent that without being open-source.
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>which is generally bad for community-driven projects
11:15<@planetmaker>yes ^
11:15<@planetmaker>Besides that, I haven't seen that thing happening
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>unless you count sergej :=)
11:15<peter1139>er... *with* not without
11:15<peter1139>Eddi|zuHause, yeah but he did that regardless of license :)
11:15<@planetmaker>and the license assures that *you* will need be attributed for the sprites no-matter-what
11:15<Bad_Brett>that russian site?
11:16<@planetmaker>But if you want "no derivatives", then the DevZone is not the place for you
11:16<peter1139>No derivatives means if you give up, or something bad happens, it's all lost :(
11:16<@planetmaker>^
11:17<Bad_Brett>hmmm
11:17<@planetmaker>which is why I really advocate GPL v2+. It allows derivatives. It requires attribution. It requires disclosing which changes are made and providing the source in turn as well
11:17<@planetmaker>For the reason peter1139 just stated: no derivatives is too much a danger for me to actually invest time in
11:18<@planetmaker>and I'm also not happy to invest money (=DevZone) into stuff I may not make continue to work with OpenTTD
11:19<Bad_Brett>"and the license assures that *you* will need be attributed for the sprites no-matter-what"
11:19<@planetmaker>I'm all happy to give all support, both time and ressources to projects which are open and allow just that: derivatives as anyone sees fit. But always sharing changes and giving attribution
11:20<Bad_Brett>so, theoretically, someone can copy the entire project and add a text files which states "graphics by Bad_Brett"?
11:21<@planetmaker>you should add that file yourself ;-)
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>looks like the last discussion about too-long-project-request-url quickly degraded into "look at this geociticizer"
11:22<Bad_Brett>:-)
11:22<@planetmaker>But yes. Anyone is allowed to clone the project. Make changes as s/he sees fit. State "graphics and code by Bad_Brett. X and Y modifed by myself" and release that.
11:22<Zuu>But yes, someone can use your graphics as long as he/she also follow the GPL2 license and share the source of his/her project. It also need to carry an attribution to you.
11:22<@planetmaker>no-one can claim your work as his, Bad_Brett
11:22<@planetmaker>and that imho is the important thing
11:22<Bad_Brett>yes of course
11:22<peter1139>Sharing work is not a bad thing.
11:23<Bad_Brett>i have no problem with that
11:23<peter1139>Obviously if you were wanting to make money from it, open source might not be the best route.
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11:23<Eddi|zuHause>ah there it is: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/ask_new_project
11:23<@planetmaker>:-O @ Eddi|zuHause
11:23<@planetmaker>where did you find that link? :-)
11:25<Zuu>It was possible created last time the same problem occured :-)
11:25<@planetmaker>possibly. But it left not a single residue in my memory :D
11:25<Zuu>This page should possible be changed to use the short link: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>[Dienstag, 23. Juli 2013] [20:13:06] <^Spike^> ... and we never setup a short url for that?
11:25<@planetmaker>:-)
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>and following discussion
11:26<@planetmaker>Zuu, totally yes :-)
11:26<Zuu>And https://dev.openttdcoop.org/
11:27<Zuu>At least the former I could do, the later is more hidden where you need to edit the page. Though I don't know if I'm allowed to do that or not.
11:28<@planetmaker>I fixed the former
11:29<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, what made you suddenly(?) reconsider the license? Last time we talked you seemed all happy about GPL?
11:30<Bad_Brett>well, i don't want to see half-finished work end up on some russian site
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11:30<peter1139>That can happen regardless of your license.
11:31<@planetmaker>those people will not care about the license. Indeed
11:31<Bad_Brett>the thing that scares a bit, is that i know that many people are becoming impatient because the project is taking too long
11:32<Pinkbeast>Conversely, what if you fall under a bus tomorrow? It might be useful if others could complete the project.
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think you'd find anyone crazy enough for that :)
11:33<Bad_Brett>:-)
11:34<Bad_Brett>sadly enough, i doubt that anyone would invest enough time to do that
11:34<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, but it would still allow then to salvage some parts :-P
11:34<Bad_Brett>yes, and that's the dilemma
11:34<Pinkbeast>Bad_Brett: Surely then the answer is not to release it until finished?
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: but the point is, people could do smaller tweaks, e.g. to cater for some updates in game mechanics
11:35<@planetmaker>Bad_Brett, how is it really a dilemma?
11:35<peter1139>I guess it's all a mindset. I'd rather concentrate on improving my work rather than worry about what others are doing with it.
11:35<@planetmaker>^^
11:36<Pinkbeast>I think as planetmaker says, if people are going to rip it off, they're going to rip it off, regardless.
11:36<@planetmaker>also... peter1139 is right. It's a mindset thing. Personally I don't mind too much, if people just take my work and do whatever with it. As long as they credit my part in it
11:37<@planetmaker>People have different ideas of what is 'nice'. So... let them have their joy, I'll have mine. In the end more people will be happy
11:37<@planetmaker>And I can always point to my "original work"
11:37<Bad_Brett>well, the problem is, that if there is a grf called "western trains", another one called "western towns", a third one called "western landscape", i'm pretty certain that i would lose interest in the project
11:37<@planetmaker>and say that it's the way it's meant to be :-)
11:38<@planetmaker>good that there isn't
11:38<Bad_Brett>:-)
11:39<Bad_Brett>what i mean is... if someone clones parts of FIRS, it would be rather obvious that it contains parts o FIRS
11:40<Bad_Brett>but if someone clones parts of something that isn't even close to a realised, it might seem like I'm the one who's doing the cloning when my project is released (because who actually reads those license files)?
11:40<Bad_Brett>...
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11:40<Bad_Brett>bad english
11:41<Bad_Brett>haha
11:41<Bad_Brett>need more sleep
11:41<@planetmaker>no, it wouldn't seem like. As he's then not crediting you properly
11:42<peter1139>If they can clone it legimately, they're far more likely to make it clear where they came from, imho.
11:42<@planetmaker>Like OpenGFX. Or zBase. It's mostly Zephyris' work. All know that. But he didn't write a single line of code for either
11:42<@planetmaker>except... scripts for sprite generation / blender stuff
11:42<peter1139>Also the person who would clone might end up wanting to contribute directly instead of cloning.
11:42<@planetmaker>^ I would expect that much more
11:43<peter1139>That does mean a free-for-all with random art styles though, as you are still the maintainer.
11:43<peter1139>er
11:43<peter1139>*deson't*
11:43<peter1139>oh vballs
11:43<peter1139>*doesn't*
11:43<peter1139>*balls*
11:43*peter1139 looks at his keyboard.
11:44<Taede>if you upload to devzone pre-release, you also automatically have proof that you added the house to your repo well before hypothetical cloner added it to his grf, so i wouldn't worry about ppl thinking you are the cloner
11:44<@planetmaker>^ good point, Taede :-)
11:44<@planetmaker>the repo is proof of authorship
11:45<@planetmaker>kinda
11:45<@planetmaker>unless you commit stolen stuff :D
11:45<Bad_Brett>i don't think you understand my problem :-)
11:45<Bad_Brett>it's not so much about getting credits
11:47<Bad_Brett>it's more that i have a vision of how i want it it to be
11:47<Bad_Brett>if people don't like it and decide to change it, that's great
11:47<@planetmaker>well, yes. Follow that vision. No-one's going to stop you
11:49<@planetmaker>but then I don't quite understand your problem indeed :-)
11:50<@planetmaker>your fear is that someone releases a newgrf with your artwork before you do. And you don't want that.
11:50<@planetmaker>right?
11:51<Bad_Brett>yes
11:51<@planetmaker>suggestion: nightly builds. Thus... you release it whenever you make a change :D
11:51<@planetmaker>'release'. for those daring enough to test test builds
11:52<@planetmaker>real releases are different
11:52<@planetmaker>just like openttd nightlies. some use it. and get new features earlier. test them. give feedback. provide hints for bugs
11:52<Bad_Brett>hmm yes, that sounds like a good option
11:52<@planetmaker>same can work there for your newgrf. And real releases will be published properly so that anyone can obtain them conveniently. via bananananannanananananaassss
11:54<Bad_Brett>many things would be so much easier if i used the repo
11:54<@planetmaker>well. The repo is up and running for at least 4 weeks ;-)
11:55<Bad_Brett>:-)
11:56<Bad_Brett>i know some simutrans guy actually took houses from my screenshots and included them in some graphics pack, though i don't think it was released
11:57<@planetmaker>so... did he ask and attribute you?
11:58<@planetmaker>did you tell him what you think of it, if he didn't? And why do you care if he does it in private?
11:59<Bad_Brett>i don't care
11:59<@planetmaker>in private anything goes really. Fun only starts if you distribute stuff :D
12:02<Bad_Brett>yeah
12:03<Bad_Brett>i think that 8bpp versions of some of my houses will be featured in danmack's new project
12:03<Bad_Brett>which i think is great
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12:04<Bad_Brett>because i love his work and would be happy to contribute
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12:06<Bad_Brett>the thing i want to avoid is that someone takes my have finished work and release it without even adding anything
12:06<Bad_Brett>*half-finished
12:08<Bad_Brett>i'm gonna think about this
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12:09<@planetmaker>*sigh*
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12:26<Bad_Brett>well, the whole reason i began doing graphics for openttd, was that i hated what the gaming industry had become... rushed releases, content split up in DLC's... and this is something that, while unlikely, could happen
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>well, effectively, you "only" make a DLC :)
12:27<Bad_Brett>haha... whoopie :-)
12:29<peter1139>Everyone loves DLC. Nobody likes paying for DLC, though...
12:30<Bad_Brett>i don't agree :-)
12:31<Bad_Brett>in my opinion: a train set dlc = good, a single locomotive dlc = potentially game breaking
12:31<peter1139>Yeah.
12:32<peter1139>True, I was thinking big packs of content, not individual.
12:32<matkum>what is the most efficient way to rapidly grow a city
12:32<Bad_Brett>my main issue with dlc is that often screw up the game balance
12:32<peter1139>At least 5 regularly serviced stations.
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12:36<Bad_Brett>though i just realised
12:37<Bad_Brett>my train graphics are split up in thousands of parts... good luck copying that :-)
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13:34<Wolf01>quak
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13:34<frosch123>moin
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25826 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-10-09 17:45:21 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>simplified_chinese - 4 changes by siu238X
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 2 changes by telk5093
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15:03<andythenorth>hmm
15:04<andythenorth>is this wise? :P
15:04<V453000>no
15:04<andythenorth>ok
15:04<V453000>yw
15:04<andythenorth>I'll do it anyway
15:04<V453000>yes
15:04<andythenorth>wonder if I've done it right
15:04<andythenorth>sometimes I would like a little more debug info
15:04<andythenorth>wrt newgrf trains
15:05<V453000>what did you do
15:05<andythenorth>I am used to industry debug, which is good
15:05<andythenorth>I am having vehicles made up of 1/8 parts
15:05<andythenorth>so an 8/8 vehicle is 8 parts
15:05<Supercheese>Did you address the air drag issue?
15:05<andythenorth>but I can't inspect the consist to see if I did right or wrong
15:05<andythenorth>no I didn't address air drag
15:05<Supercheese>hmm
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15:06<andythenorth>first I need to compose the consist :P
15:06<andythenorth>the game should calculate air drag proportional to length
15:06<andythenorth>shouldn't be my problem, eh?
15:06<andythenorth>:D
15:07<V453000>omfg why even care about air drag?
15:07<Sturmi>the game calculates air drag? o.O
15:07<andythenorth>V453000: I don't care about air drag
15:08<andythenorth>but some players have provided pikka with detailed bug reports about why their trains can't reach max speed :P
15:08<Supercheese>and apparently the air drag calculations in the code have some issues with articulated parts
15:08<andythenorth>hmm, this is looking all wrong
15:08<andythenorth>meh
15:08<andythenorth>oh, actually this wrong is right
15:09<andythenorth>means everything works so far, it's just not finished :P
15:09*andythenorth would like a prize
15:09<andythenorth>I hope you all appreciate what I'm doing :P
15:09*Supercheese gives andy a booby prize
15:09<andythenorth>this is 30 mins of code
15:09<V453000>peeerhaps pikka used broken values for power?
15:10<andythenorth>it took 4 days of thinking about how to write only 40 mins of code
15:10<andythenorth>otherwise I'd have spent hours writing it :P
15:12<andythenorth>praps
15:12<Bad_Brett>i usually code first, think later
15:13<andythenorth>I done that already :)
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15:13<andythenorth>code first, think 4 days, write more code
15:13<Bad_Brett>yes
15:13<Bad_Brett>for me it's more like...
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15:15<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> the game should calculate air drag proportional to length <-- that makes absolutely no sense. as the gaps between vehicles cause air drag, not the vehicles themselves
15:15<andythenorth>oic :)
15:15*andythenorth neglected that :)
15:15<Bad_Brett>code, find 10 bugs, fix those bugs with really dirty solutions, to the point that i can no longer understand my own code... i figure out what i did wrong, think again, and finally code something decent
15:16<andythenorth>so what, I have to fix airdrag myself?: P
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what's wrong with using the CETS method of 3-part-vehicles?
15:16<andythenorth>don't know, I didn't look :)
15:16<andythenorth>probably nothing
15:16<andythenorth>I just found this way easy ;)
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>you can leave out the turning state part
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>it won't be much of a problem with 10lu vehicles
15:17<andythenorth>so how did you do it?
15:17<andythenorth>how long is each part?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/scripts/tables.py <- the "parts" table
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15:19<Bad_Brett>i love that solution
15:20<andythenorth>3G modem on a moving train :P
15:20<andythenorth>that page is loading slowly
15:21<andythenorth>yeah that makes total sense
15:21<andythenorth>any reason not to just use 8 1/8 vehicles to compose an 8/8 vehicle?
15:21<andythenorth>other than elegance?
15:21<andythenorth>do you put the sprites on the second part?
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>number of vehicle-IDs etc
15:21<andythenorth>ah
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>i assign different vehicle IDs to the front and back parts
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>so i don't have to think about position-in-consist
15:22<andythenorth>ok
15:22<andythenorth>I am using same vehicle for all invisible trailing parts
15:22<andythenorth>it's working now, I'll see if it has any problems :P
15:22<Supercheese>are your graphics only on the first 1/8 part?
15:22<andythenorth>dunno if the sprite offsets will be wrong, if they're always attached to 1/8 lead part
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>so the front gets X, the middle X+2000 and the end X+4000
15:23<andythenorth>Supercheese: yes
15:23<Bad_Brett>my vehicles actually consist of 8 1/8 parts
15:23<Supercheese>might have tunnel glitches
15:23<andythenorth>Supercheese: ok, ta
15:23<Supercheese>I think Eddi mentioned some stuff about that
15:23<andythenorth>disappears too early?
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you should use the middle part as reference, to better match the turning point
15:23<Supercheese>somethin like that
15:23<andythenorth>hmm
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: my method makes sure it's odd-symmetric, so there is actually a middle
15:24<andythenorth>I was really trying to avoid shenanigans where I have to put sprites on middle part
15:24<andythenorth>it's really boring to figure that out :P
15:24<andythenorth>load state sprites become a real cluster fuck
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i do that with templates
15:24<andythenorth>yeah
15:25<andythenorth>that's what I would have to do too
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15:25<andythenorth>I am trying to avoid code that is complex to remember how it works
15:25<Supercheese>well, borrow from Eddi's already existing stuff, then :)
15:25<Supercheese>ah
15:25<andythenorth>Supercheese: then I have to remember how Eddi's stuff works :)
15:25<Supercheese>yeah
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't think your way is better in that respect :)
15:26<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how do you handle load sprites?
15:26<andythenorth>you have to check lead vehicle?
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>no, the middle vehicle has capacity, the other parts reference the middle part through var61
15:26<andythenorth>where is your cargo capacity?
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>which is another reason why they get different IDs
15:27<andythenorth>do you have any visibly articulated vehicles?
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes
15:27<andythenorth>e.g. a triple-pack container wagon or similar
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>lots of DMUs and EMUs
15:28<andythenorth>hmm
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>i have a regexp-style pattern that generates the articulated vehicle callback
15:28<andythenorth>that makes sense
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>so i have "front, 3x middle, back"
15:29<andythenorth>the problem I've got is that I don't know if it's worth binning (some large amount) of the current set templating just to provide 10/8 long coaches
15:29<andythenorth>and I didn't want to special case anything over 8/8 (I already tried that, it's simple, but special case smells)
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>you just make the sprites larger, and port over my slicing mechanism.
15:30<andythenorth>I have to shuffle all the properties to middle vehicle too
15:31<andythenorth>this set is just not structured for that :)
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>you can make it front vehicle as well
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>just a matter of var61 offset
15:31<Bad_Brett>i use the front vehicle
15:31<Bad_Brett>no problem at all
15:31<Bad_Brett>(so far)
15:31<andythenorth>Bad_Brett: you use it for sprites or just for properties?
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>actually, if you use position-in-id-chain front is easier
15:32<Bad_Brett>properties
15:32<andythenorth>so you have to handle all loading states and crap manually?
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>as you just pass that position to var61 parameter
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15:32<andythenorth>can't just rely on the spritegroup for loading states?
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>no, that won't work
15:32<andythenorth>nope
15:33<andythenorth>I was trying to avoid all this stuff :)
15:33<andythenorth>I have no interest in 10/8, but I don't mind them, and Dan wants it
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>but i find the stepping bad anyway, i'd rather have 0-10-90-100 for 3 loading steps than 0-33-66-100
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>when i handle that manually, i have that freedom
15:34*andythenorth will have to think on some more
15:34<andythenorth>the CETS table will port straight over
15:34<andythenorth>but I'd have to adapt or write my own templating
15:35<Bad_Brett>i haven't added any loading graphics yet, but out of curiosity, is there any way i can animate them?
15:35<andythenorth>animate how?
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15:35<Eddi|zuHause>just use the whole CETS script/table/template (with turning angles and all)
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>way easiest method :)
15:35<andythenorth>well true
15:35<andythenorth>have you written a docs generator for it?
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: there is no animation state, so either you have palette animation, or you use movement steps or somesuch
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>you might have a tick counter though, not checked
15:36<Bad_Brett>there is that global counter
15:36<Bad_Brett>but i haven't tried it
15:37<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: want to take over Iron Horse? o_O
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have not (yet) coded a docs generator
15:37<andythenorth>PM Dan?
15:37<Bad_Brett>might be a problem with the sprite cache
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: well if there was no problem with the movement substeps, there won't be a problem with this either :)
15:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: if you worked with Dan you'd actually get some sprites supplied ;)
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't think i can get anything done in the near future
15:39<andythenorth> you've got support for vehicle generations (epochs?)
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so either you take CETS as-is (there are a few configuration parameters you can tweak) and provide your own tracking table and sprites, or you let it be
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, i have support for that
15:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I'll let in be :)
15:41<andythenorth>thanks for the CETS offer, but a good part of this is that it helps me do my job if I write code often
15:41<andythenorth>it helps me work with programmers
15:42<Supercheese>You can (ab)use the global animation counter for animations
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15:45<Eddi|zuHause>NOOO, orudge killed the forum :p
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15:49<juzza1>why multiple parts for vehicles with 1-8 visual length?
15:49<Bad_Brett>more turning angles :-)
15:51<@orudge>Eddi|zuHause: now unkilled
15:52<Bad_Brett>thank god
15:52<Bad_Brett>ehm... orudge
15:52<andythenorth>meh
15:52<andythenorth>so if graphics need to be on part #3 or #4 or whatever
15:52<andythenorth>I could just use a different vehicle id for that
15:52*andythenorth is thinking aloud
15:53<andythenorth>I can switch graphics based on numeric id of leading part, right?
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>can you rephrase that?
15:55<andythenorth>I can write a switch for a trailing part of an articulated consist, which checks the numeric id of the leading part as the var?
15:55*andythenorth looks in docs
15:55<juzza1>Bad_Brett: i see, very naughty... but clever too :D
15:55<andythenorth>count_veh_id would do it
15:55<andythenorth>or vehicle_type_id
15:55<Bad_Brett>juzza1: yeah, it was eddi who taught me the trick... that bastard
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>something like that
15:56<Bad_Brett>my life is ruined now :-)
15:56<andythenorth>meh, my idea won't work without some hideous shuffling around of code at compile time :P
15:56<andythenorth>nvm
15:56<juzza1>yeah. i've tested cets, but didn't realize at the time what was happening
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: i stole that idea from other people :)
15:56<Bad_Brett>...those bastards :-)
15:57<andythenorth>what is the fascination with longer vehicles anyway?
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>partially influenced by MB and George
15:58<andythenorth>8/8 is enough, surely :X
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: passenger vehicles are really long, which makes the game vehicles look rather toy-ish
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15:59<andythenorth>I like that :)
15:59<andythenorth>but I don't mind longer either :P
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16:04<andythenorth>I thought I'd found a cunning hack to avoid using more ids
16:04<andythenorth>but nvm
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16:07<Eddi|zuHause>just make sure the IDs are <8192
16:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: presumably somewhere you generate a 'consist' or something - a list of all the sub-parts comprising a vehicle?
16:07<andythenorth>and then you repeat over that in your template?
16:07<andythenorth>e.g. a tender locomotive will be made up of 3 + 3 parts
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes-ish
16:08<LordAro>urgh, train stuff in #openttd
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>the locomotive has a "attach tender" entry in the tracking table
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>and the tender has a flag that it's not a buildable vehicle
16:08<andythenorth>any idea which file? :)
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16:09<andythenorth>my train is nearly arrived, but I can read your methods later
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: most likely processing.py and write_engine.py, look for "artic"
16:10<andythenorth>ok ta
16:10<andythenorth>good night
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16:14<frosch123>night
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16:26<peter1139>I'd forgotten how long Lift Yr Skinny Fists Like Antennas To Heaven was.
16:26-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1B32C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:26<peter1139>And not just the title.
16:26<peter1139>1h27 albumem...
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16:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: am I reading your templating correctly? Do you also use c-pre-processor? (I am seeing #define - I didn't look into the makefile though)
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>i use everything you can think of :)
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>python, c-preprocessor, nmlc, grfcodec, shellscript, makefile
16:44<andythenorth>sounds like FIRS :P
16:45<andythenorth>kitchen sink compile stack :P
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>not necessarily in this order
16:45<andythenorth>so now I have to expand your CPP stuff in my head :)
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>well you can just run it :)
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>it will keep intermediate files for each engine
16:46*andythenorth looks for 'articulation'
16:46<andythenorth>I am guessing that's a list or similar
16:47<andythenorth>oh yeah, found it
16:47<@Belugas>Card Processing Payment?
16:47<andythenorth>:P
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>you can try https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/4058/EP5.tar.gz
16:47<andythenorth>ok, so the basic pattern you've used is about same as I've arrived at
16:47<andythenorth>I'm probably going to steal some of that
16:48<andythenorth>particularly I couldn't be bothered to figure out how to track the offset
16:49<andythenorth>in what cases would "artic_ident = 'custom'" ?
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's a remnant from when the pattern wasn't so flexible yet
16:49<andythenorth>oh the pattern stuff is quite neat
16:50<andythenorth>I am reading processing.py
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>the earlier version could only do "A - n*B - C"
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>so a "A-B-C-D-E" train had to use custom
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>"custom" basically means "i manually type in the articulated callback"
16:51<andythenorth>so the parts you define with the patterns....
16:51<andythenorth>are those 'real' parts, or pseudo (invisible) parts?
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>those are real parts
16:51<andythenorth>yeah
16:51<andythenorth>that makes sense
16:51<andythenorth>ok
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>the pseudo-parts are strictly taken from the length table
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>and IDs calculated by a fixed scheme
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>X, X+2000 and X+4000 or so
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>that allows for 2000 vehicles in total :)
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>the "offset" can be larger, but must make sure that you don't exceed 8192, as the articulated callback has that limit
16:53<andythenorth>hmm
16:54<andythenorth>so I need to find the code that handles pseudo-parts
16:54<andythenorth>defining the visible parts I have covered already :)
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if "artic" doesn't bring you further, then try "slice"
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you're interested in sprite offsets, look at write.py and search for template
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>and in helper.py i think
16:58<andythenorth>so you consume a new ID for each part of each vehicle?
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17:05<andythenorth>barf
17:05*andythenorth has to rebuild templating
17:05<V453000>:D
17:08<andythenorth>trains basically present complications
17:08<andythenorth>ships and RVs do not have these problems :P
17:08<V453000>that doesnt make sense!
17:09<V453000>there can only be bad code, trains are awesome by default :P
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17:11<andythenorth>must be bad code
17:12<@Alberth>bad brain alignment with the problem at hand :)
17:15<andythenorth>with RVs there is simply no case (in the ones I've written) for a vehicle to be used as both lead part and articulated trailing part
17:16<andythenorth>whereas trains do that crap
17:16<andythenorth>which is 20 kinds of complicated
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17:18<V453000>templating ftw? XD
17:18<andythenorth>meh
17:19<andythenorth>I have to start special casing everything
17:19<andythenorth>it's basically shit :)
17:19<V453000>XD
17:20<V453000>isnt it easier to simply code it directly in nml? XD
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17:21<ST2>well, a random message... good to display here: <ttd-srv12A> REX (Spectator): I love OPENTTD!!!
17:21<ST2>:)
17:22<andythenorth>V453000: dunno, do you want to try? o_O
17:22<andythenorth>it's easier, but craploads slower
17:22<andythenorth>copy-paste, find-replace :P
17:22<andythenorth>repeat
17:22<andythenorth>until dead
17:23<V453000>I certainly dont want to randomly code things I didnt draw :)
17:23<V453000>coding is just slave labour to me
17:23<V453000>obvioutly it is fun if it makes things work, but I try to limit coding to minimum :P
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>i do, too, that's why i do code generators :p
17:25<V453000>lol :)
17:25<V453000>well yeah but nobody is going to draw 600 engines either :P
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17:27<Wolf01>'night
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17:38<andythenorth>so where is var 61 in nml?
17:38*andythenorth reads nml code
17:40<andythenorth>can't see it
17:44<@Rubidium>var 61 of what? industries?
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17:45<andythenorth>trains
17:46<andythenorth>trains / vehicles /s
17:50<@Rubidium>can't find it either, though you could possibly use the deprecated thing
17:50<andythenorth>hmm
17:50<andythenorth>problem for tomorrow I guess :)
17:50<@Rubidium>or... do all variables have an optional parameter for the offset (which is how I would implement it)
17:50<andythenorth>oh
17:51<andythenorth>hmm, dunno :)
17:51<andythenorth>that would be a nice implementation
17:51<andythenorth>anyway, bed <- andythenorth
17:51<andythenorth>good night
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18:10<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i always used var[0x61,...]
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---Logclosed Thu Oct 10 00:00:56 2013