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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-10-10

---Logopened Thu Oct 10 00:00:56 2013
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01:43<dihedral>morning
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04:31<@planetmaker>moin
04:31<Taede>moin
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04:32<@planetmaker>hey :-) How's life?
04:32<Taede>not too shabby
04:33<Taede>cold, but sunny outside
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06:36<bon>hi
06:37<__ln__>jour, bon
06:38<bon>how're you ln?
06:38<__ln__>i'm operating within normal parametres
06:40<bon>heh
06:40<bon>up to anything yet?
06:44<peter1139>*parameters
06:44<__ln__>peter1139: you're american now?
06:44<peter1139>No, it's just how parameters is spelled.
06:45<__ln__>oh, sad.
06:47<bon>I still haven't found any suggestion online if you two don't mind me asking again: is there a length limit to locomotive sprites?
06:48<peter1139>Yes there is.
06:50<bon>nomially roughly how far would you go before you should break it into sections?
06:52<peter1139>If it's longer than 8 in-game units, then it needs to be split.
06:53<peter1139>Which is the regular vehicle length.
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06:54<bon>8...mm ok I understand now thanks
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07:08<bon>is there an overview of the variable runcosts or I'll just have to check different individual newgrf pages to figure out how it works?
07:09<juzza1>nfo or nml?
07:09<juzza1>or do you mean how it actually works ingame
07:10<bon>nfo
07:11<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page is the specs wiki
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09:07<roboboy>According to http://wiki.openttd.org/Commit_style, would a comment update/fix be a "Doc" commit?
09:07<roboboy>I would think so
09:08<@planetmaker>could be either or. Whatever feels more appropriate
09:12<@planetmaker>probably with a tendency towards "-Doc: Descriptions for some station GUI functions was insufficient"
09:16<roboboy>aha
09:16*roboboy should go to bed now
09:17<roboboy>gnight
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09:22<@planetmaker>g'night roboboy
09:24<@Belugas>hello
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09:39<bon>hi belugas
09:41<V453000>something like 10 is still feasible bon :)
09:41<V453000>just test it :)
09:42<bon>v453000 heh. I was just wondering about how to draw a few particular locomotives I needed that had long chassis
09:43<bon>one similar example is the PRR GG1 .. I'm thinking that thing probably would had been split in the middle in a grf
09:43<bon>how're you anyway?
09:44<@Belugas>bonjour bon
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/gfx/pruss/EG538_9_pruss_8bpp_normal.png
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>if you worry about longer sprites :)
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>(WARNING: lots of magic!)
09:47<bon>mm that is a bit long
09:47<bon>whats the extra angles for tho?
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>that is the length of 9
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>the extra angles are for that things like https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/gfx/template_16_8bpp_normal.png don't stick out of the tracks so far
09:51<bon>hmm so its going farther than overhanging the curve then abruptly turn 45 degree with nothing inbetween?
09:52<V453000>yeah but who would like to draw that many sprites :)
09:53<V453000>what is that, 24 views instead of 8?
09:53<V453000>that is insane amount of sprite work
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>it's "just" triple :)
09:53<V453000>would probably make sense to do it with rendered images though
09:54<V453000>nuts already has barely bearable amount of sprites with just 8 views per vehicle, I cant imagine doing it x3
09:55<bon>heh I'm with you v453000 :)
09:55<V453000>anyway, for the longer sprites, just try things out and see what glitches (too much) for you
09:55<bon>yeah I'll probably be getting to the small things first so that may take a while ^_^
09:55<V453000>obviously 8/8 is safest
09:56<V453000>yarr
09:56<bon>at least I could think of angled tunnel portals and maybe train sheds but otherwise like you said I guess
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>concerning airdrag for wagons: a new vehicle property "additional_air_drag" with a range of 0..1?
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>value will be summed up for all wagons and cached in the front engine
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>that makes it possible to model streamlined high speed trains which reduce the air drag at the gaps between wagons
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>and for dummy articulated parts like in CETS you just set it to 0
10:05<bon>v453000 there is one other thing tho. can powered wagons accept any kind of negative values or theres a limit to this?
10:06<V453000>like power -X ?
10:06<@planetmaker>negative power?!
10:06<V453000>only +x XD
10:06<V453000>why would you have negative power
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>don't use powered wagons...
10:07<V453000>powered wagons alone are ok? :d
10:08<V453000>the livery override is a bit wtf but well
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>the whole thing smells of "we hack this into TTDPatch because we can't do it fully flexible (yet)"
10:10<bon>v453000 heh was just wondering about reenacting steam heating n diesel slug without having to duplicate things in the buy list. but this is just a note now tho, still waiting to see what friend thinks
10:10<@planetmaker>what is 'fully flexible' in this context, Eddi|zuHause ? :-)
10:10<V453000>._.
10:11<V453000>slugs live =D
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: like, varaction2 that checks the front vehicle, or putting engines behind other engines
10:11<bon>v453000 I meant actual slug units...not slug aka animals :->
10:11<bon>thats what usa call them, I still don't know what the term would be outside north america (if there were any)
10:12<bon>http://www.nsdash9.com/images/NS850k.jpg heres a quick example fyi
10:13<V453000>pfft
10:13<V453000>not interested then!
10:14<bon>v453000 well it was a cheap way to get more traction at the con of much lower top speed and more
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10:16<bon>v453000 whether you had any interest or not this is a different type: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/IC1350.JPG to sum it up the two units are the same powered things but they omit one cab to save a bit of cost
10:16<bon>don't ask me why but they call these cow-calf .. then again the calf always follows its mother! :)
10:17<V453000>LOL
10:18<V453000>well the question is if you want them to be purchaseable as two (would be very wtf imo) or one engine
10:18<bon>v453000 well what you would do for an usa set I imagine is to just have one single vehicle with two ids...
10:19<bon>first unit bought is the default cab unit .. but a second one added to it changes to the cabless sprite
10:19<V453000>define usa
10:19<V453000>has no meaning for a game
10:19<bon>(then again I think pikka already did the same thing to NARS .. cue the EMD F units changing sprites depending on multi-loco consists
10:20<V453000>yes something like that happens there indeed
10:20<V453000>its nice.
10:20<V453000>I personally think that is the best way to do it, just visually, no extra train IDs
10:20<bon>mm..thanks re the sprite length thing btw. I kinda need to go out for a while now tho
10:21<bon>and yeah no extra ids I agree...anyway bye till another time :p
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10:23<@Belugas>cool... saving before compiling... saved not only the sruoce code but my nerves as well :)
10:23<peter1138>:D
10:23<@Belugas>since.. compiler crashed!
10:23<peter1138>!
10:23<V453000>:)
10:25<@Belugas>Delphi4 has sometimes this habit of unexpectendly just.. vanish
10:25<@Belugas>yeah, i know... it's DElphi and it's 4 and it's old...
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12:13<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, why don't we put the version string in the savegame and display it on load error?
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12:22<peter1138>Make a patch.
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12:37<Eddi|zuHause>that's not what you usually say :p
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12:47<@Belugas>nope, he wold say : i ha(ve)d a patch for that ;)
12:49<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I see no reason that can't/shouldn't be done
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13:41<Wolf01>hello
13:42<@Alberth>hello Wolf01
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14:16<tigeroo>Hello all
14:21<@Alberth>hi hi
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14:31<andythenorth>o/
14:32<V453000>not o/
14:33<@Alberth>\o
14:45<tigeroo>hello again
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15:22<@Alberth>V453000: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/nuts_curly_bracket.png you know about that yellow curly bracket ?
15:22<V453000>yeah got reported just today :)
15:22<V453000>but thanks
15:23<@Alberth>the famous "I get two of the same bug reports shortly after each other" hits again :)
15:23<V453000>[is already fixed, coming in 0.6.1]
15:23<V453000>indeed
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15:29<Thurak>whats a resonable starting date if i want to have a long game
15:29<Thurak>but i dont want to be in the stone age either
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15:31<V453000>1920
15:33<Thurak>ok ill try tha
15:33<Thurak>that*
15:33<V453000>you will need newGRFs which support "long game" obviously
15:33<V453000>e.g. NUTS
15:34<V453000>1920-2100
15:34<Thurak>ive got the hover vehicles
15:34<Thurak>i think they are introduced around 2080, give or take
15:35<Thurak>also some planes which i think are spread out across all timeframes, and vacuum railways
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15:45<andythenorth>ho ho
15:45<andythenorth>newgrf tech forum has some interesting threads today :)
15:45*andythenorth likes interesting
15:54<Supercheese>more air drag shenanigans
15:59<Thurak>when do you get the first thing that has a helipad
16:00<Supercheese>http://wiki.openttd.org/Airports#Heliport
16:00<Supercheese>1963, with no newgrfs
16:01<Thurak>ah, i was a bit confused as the wiki says the first helicopter is 1957, and im at 1958 with no helipad
16:01<Supercheese>Newgrfs can change that, e.g. Opengfx+ Airports has an option to enable all airports regardless of current date
16:03<Thurak>think ive got that one, tho i havent touched options
16:07<andythenorth>newgrfs can change airport date? o_O
16:07<Supercheese>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Airports#Airport_properties
16:07<Supercheese>years_available [start year, last year]
16:08<Supercheese>I should know, I contributed that patch to OGFX+ airports ;)
16:08<andythenorth>hmm
16:08<andythenorth>that is interesting
16:08<andythenorth>airport dates bug me
16:08<Supercheese>They bugged me as well
16:08<Supercheese>enough I wrote a grf to fix it
16:08<andythenorth>with AV8, I want to use a much greater range of airports, and rely on the newgrf design to make planes interesting
16:08<Supercheese>but then I merged it with OGFX+, to save a grf slot
16:09<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=56780#p972474
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16:27<Thurak>setting up railways annoys me..
16:27<Thurak>so many things get in the way
16:28<frosch123>like other rails? :p
16:28<Thurak>yeah
16:28<Thurak>and i need to lay down 2 tracks
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16:38<V453000>lol
16:46<Thurak>are Av8 airships any good to use?
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16:59<frosch123>night
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17:17<andythenorth>hmm
17:17<andythenorth>don't understand my own code :)
17:18<Supercheese>Thurak: Av8 airships are great
17:19<__ln__>http://www.hs.fi/kuukausiliite/This+is+how+a+Helsingin+Sanomat+journalist+tried+to+save+Nokia/a1381288411564
17:20<Thurak>which ones are great? zeppelin is making me a loss atm
17:22<andythenorth>hmm
17:22<andythenorth>why isn't this recursing?
17:22<andythenorth>I should have an unpleasant loop running
17:22<andythenorth>my code should be buggy but isn't :P
17:22<andythenorth>this is disturbing
17:23<Thurak>should be buggy but isnt?
17:23<Thurak>thats a rare thing to hear
17:23<Supercheese>Thurak: planespeed modifier set to 1/1?
17:23<Supercheese>If it's set lower, they won't turn profits
17:24<Thurak>i havent touched settings like that
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17:24<Supercheese>Advanced Settings -> Vehicles -> Plane speed factor
17:25<andythenorth>grr
17:25<Supercheese>Av8 should throw a warning if that setting is not 1/1
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17:26<andythenorth>oh well
17:26<Thurak>i dont see that option
17:26<Thurak>ah, found it
17:26<andythenorth> by analysis my code is broken, but it works empriically :P
17:26<Thurak>had to set it to advanced settings at the top
17:26<Thurak>its 1/4
17:27<Supercheese>Yeah, bump that to 1/1
17:27<Supercheese>then your airships will be better :)
17:27<Thurak>the game says default should be 1/4...
17:27<andythenorth>hmm
17:27<Supercheese>Av8 says it should be 1/1
17:27<Thurak>is Av8 balanced around 1/1 then?
17:27<Supercheese>yes
17:27<andythenorth>by analysis, andythenorth is not broken, but is empirically
17:27<Thurak>ok then
17:28<Thurak>right, time to not suck then
17:28<Thurak>maybe
17:28<Supercheese>IIRC, airships have a more favorable cargo aging factor
17:28<Supercheese>to account for the luxurious travel compared to other early aircraft
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17:32<Supercheese>Too bad there are no more rigid airships
17:32<Supercheese>would be better than cruise shis
17:32<Supercheese>ships*
17:32<Thurak>rigid airships?
17:33<Supercheese>like the Hindenburg, Graf Zeppelin, et al.
17:34<Thurak>oh you mean IRL
17:34<Supercheese>yeah
17:35<Supercheese>There's one company building a new airship, I hope it'll be commercially successful
17:35<Thurak>whats good about rigid
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17:35<Supercheese>they can be larger, have more interior passenger space
17:36<Thurak>ah right
17:36<Supercheese>Anyway: http://aeroscraft.com/news/4575673978
17:38<Thurak>when would it be a good idea to use a train
17:38<Thurak>instead of trucks or planes
17:39<Supercheese>I like how the Aeros company promises a 500 ton payload, although I have my doubts about that
17:39<__ln__>http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/11/us/scott-carpenter-mercury-astronaut-who-orbited-earth-dies-at-88.html
17:40<Thurak>surely carrying a 500 ton payload into air is easy, doing it at a realistic price is the problem
17:40<Supercheese>and with a reasonable operating range
17:41<Supercheese>I have faith in their engineers though
17:41<Thurak>well operating range isnt a problem, just adds yet more to the price :P
17:42<Thurak>hmm.. making a profit, but its very tiny
17:42<Thurak>£1200 per trip, and its costing me something like £1000 per trip
17:42<Supercheese>Yeah, everything does boil down to economy. Unfortunately, they have large government funding, and, well, our government isn't doing so well at the moment
17:42<Supercheese>(to put it mildly)
17:43<Thurak>another way of putting it, is that im richer than quite a few contries, because i have £10 on my desk
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17:43<Supercheese>make sure you have full loads in your airships
17:44<Thurak>it is
17:44<Supercheese>they won't turn a profit half-empty, or even 3/4
17:44<Supercheese>hmm
17:44<Supercheese>longer ranges are also helpful
17:44<Thurak>full load any cargo set on both ends
17:44<Thurak>ah right
17:44<Supercheese>short hops are problematic, because they spend a terribly long time circling before landing
17:44<Thurak>its going... about 100 tiles
17:44<Thurak>yeah
17:44<Supercheese>very poor landing pattern
17:45<Supercheese>airships have very long range, use that to your advantage :)
17:46<Thurak>thats better, £9200 gained from a trip
17:46<Supercheese>:D
17:46<Thurak>would be nice if there was a tool to measure distance
17:46<Thurak>or if there is i dont know what it is
17:47<Supercheese>I think under the ? menu
17:47<Supercheese>there should be measurement tool
17:47<Supercheese>hmm perhaps not
17:47<Thurak>the airships are very expensive to buy
17:48<Thurak>£90k
17:48<Supercheese>indeed, they are not cheap
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17:49<Supercheese>@revision 6758
17:49<Supercheese>ehm
17:49<Supercheese>@commit 6758
17:49<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: Commit by Darkvater :: r6758 /trunk (8 files in 2 dirs) (2006-10-12 15:13:40 UTC)
17:49<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: -Feature: Add a measurement tool that will show dimensions and height
17:49<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: differences of various draggable tools (inspiration, concept and double
17:49<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: checking by MeusH).
17:49<Supercheese>Well, where is it
17:49<Supercheese>I know rail/road construction has it
17:50<__ln__>@seen Darkvater
17:50<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Darkvater was last seen in #openttd 3 years, 25 weeks, 4 days, 10 hours, 12 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Darkvater> good ol' days :)
17:51<Supercheese>Aww, his last post should have been "Nooooooo"
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18:21<Wolf01>'night all
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18:27<Supercheese>Huh, interesting, since we were talking about airships: http://www.airships.net/blog/uk-readers-hindenburg-documentary-uktv-tomorrow-night?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Airships+%28Airships%3A+A+Zeppelin+History+Site%29
18:27<Supercheese>pardon the long link
18:27<Thurak>... no airships available anymore and now my airports useless
18:28<Supercheese>airships should expire until after the 1950s
18:28<Supercheese>shouldn't
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 11 00:00:57 2013