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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-10-11

---Logopened Fri Oct 11 00:00:57 2013
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04:20<@planetmaker>moin
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04:43<LordAro>/o
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04:51<@planetmaker>o/
04:53<@Alberth>hi hi
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04:55<V453000>moo
04:56<LordAro>quack
04:56<LordAro>wait, that's not you...
05:07-!-poopypants [~oftc-webi@d110-32-101-41.meb801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
05:16<poopypants>hi
05:18<poopypants>hi
05:19<poopypants>i neeed help
05:19<LordAro>@topic get 3
05:19<@DorpsGek>LordAro: Don't ask to ask, just ask
05:20<poopypants>well im playing it just upgrading my tracks to electric but i cant seem to buy the passenger carts anymore
05:21<poopypants>it happened after i got the T.I.M
05:22<@Alberth>you also upgraded your depots?
05:22<poopypants>what
05:22<@planetmaker>electric rails and non-electric rails have each their own depot
05:23<@planetmaker>in an un-electrified depot you can't buy trains which are running using a pantograph
05:24<poopypants>in my curent depot i can buy steam deisel and electrical trains and all the other carts but passenger
05:26<@Alberth>you have selected a filter on cargo ?
05:27<@planetmaker>aye. What year is it? Do you use any NewGRFs? Can you buy and build monorail or maglev trains / engines?
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05:28<poopypants>year-1988
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05:41<@Alberth>i guess we need a screen shot of the buy menu, or the save game
05:46<poopypants>k
05:46-!-Thurak [~oftc-webi@87-194-20-232.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
05:49<Thurak>whats a good way to use rails
05:53<@Alberth>such that's used by train?
05:53<poopypants>https://www.dropbox.com/s/0wxqzcr70bs5aea/open%20ttd.PNG
05:53<@Alberth>or trains, if you like a challenge :)
05:53<poopypants>heres my screenshot
05:53<poopypants>buy menu
05:54<@Alberth>why are they in grey?
05:54<Xaroth|Work>gray colour scheme?
05:55<@Alberth>there's no colour at all
05:55<Xaroth|Work>the steel car has some colour
05:55<Xaroth|Work>and the wood one
05:56<@Alberth>ok, this has no obvious problems, it seems
05:58<Thurak>my trains keep crashing into each other..
05:58<Xaroth|Work>use signals
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05:58<@Alberth>don't press "ignore signal"
05:59<Thurak>which signal should you use
05:59<Xaroth|Work>depends on the track
05:59<@Alberth>path signals usually give the best results
06:00<@Alberth>in particular, one-way path signals :)
06:00<poopypants>anyone know my problem?
06:03<Thurak>ok it seems to work now
06:03<Thurak>but my trains are breaking so often
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06:04<Thurak>it lost 5% reliability in the time it took to fill up at station...
06:07<Xaroth|Work>get a train that has more reliability
06:07<Xaroth|Work>or service them more often
06:07<@Alberth>if you play with breakdowns on, you have to be careful to select a train with high reliability, and have enough depots to have it serviced regularly
06:08<V453000>or turn the shit off :)
06:08<@planetmaker>poopypants, provide a savegame. And you didn't answer all of Alberth's and my questions. Cut-out screenshots also are much less informative than those taken by ctrl+s ingame
06:08<@planetmaker>especially the "use of newgrf" question likely boils down to "use a sane collection of NewGRFs"
06:10<Thurak>whats the setting to disable breakdowns
06:11<V453000>vehicle_breakdowns
06:11<@planetmaker>that exact setting ^
06:11<poopypants>i dont know what happened but they are back again
06:11<poopypants>but thx anyway
06:11<Thurak>i cant find it..
06:11<@planetmaker>...
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06:12<@planetmaker>Thurak, advanced settings. Filter them for breakdown
06:13<@planetmaker>in older version that's in the difficulty settings
06:13<Thurak>ahh it was under servicing
06:13<Thurak>apparently i was on reduced... and they broke down several times before reaching the destination after less than 5 years
06:14<@planetmaker>5 years is a long service interval :-)
06:14<Thurak>i left them to service automaticaly
06:14<@planetmaker>then you likely can improve where depots are placed
06:15<@Alberth>yeah, but by default it's 150 days or so
06:15<Thurak>is 150 not enough then?
06:15<@planetmaker>they need be able to find them when needed.
06:15<@planetmaker>it is
06:15<@planetmaker>well. depends :-)
06:15<Thurak>i had several depots placed along the line
06:15<@planetmaker>I prefer forced servicing before or after stations and putting that explicitly in the order lists
06:16<V453000>they will break down anyway regardless what you do :|
06:16<@planetmaker>as that also makes sure that it definitely services and I know then exactly when and where
06:16<@planetmaker>for moderate to long distance you likely want them to service after each of the terminal stations
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06:28<Thurak>time scale seems a little odd.. my trains seem to take over a year to get to destination
06:29<Thurak>my money is vastly rising each trip they take, yet some of them get a loss of income last year
06:35<@Alberth>play 512x512 ?
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06:41<Thurak>i think it is on that
06:41<Thurak>slow trains tho
06:44<@Alberth>scales are not unified or so, they are chosen such that it works for the game, which means different things live in different scales
06:44<@Alberth>the program is a game rather than a simulation :)
06:44<V453000>XD
06:44<V453000>XD
06:44<V453000>XD
06:44<V453000>scales
06:45<@Alberth>says the man with very fast slugs :D
06:46<V453000>I just love the discussions about time or coordinate scales in openttd
06:46<V453000>makes so little sense that its funny
06:48<@Alberth>some people are just obsessed with reality :D
06:48<V453000>exactly, funny
06:52<Thurak>how do i only have 60% transported, there is always a train loading up
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06:56<roboboy>Just wondering, how does OpenTTD detect NewGRFs for TTDPatch savegames and scenarios?
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07:01<@Alberth>scenarios are savegames
07:01<roboboy>I imagine it's done by reading one of the savegame chunks that are defined in http://projects.tt-forums.net/projects/ttdpatch/repository/revisions/2386/entry/trunk/patches/loadsave.asm
07:01<roboboy>I know that
07:02<Thurak>if its a savegame it wont use NewGRFs
07:02<roboboy>and that is true for both TTDP and OpenTTD
07:02<@Alberth>yeah, it would be a chunk somewhere
07:03<roboboy>I get a warning from OpenTTD that there are missing GRFs and that theyv'e been disabled. I have copied the GRF from my TTDPatch installation to my OpenTTD shared newgrf folder and activated it
07:03<peter1138>So I just had a successful meeting in the office, and now I'm working from home for the rest of the afternoon.
07:03<peter1138>Is it acceptable to have a beer? :p
07:04<@Alberth>trunk/src/saveload/newgrf_sl.cpp would be the code
07:04<roboboy>I should point out that the scenario from TTDPatch could be considered "corrupt"
07:04<@Alberth>activation doesn't mean anything when loading a game, it picks the newgrfs from the file
07:05<roboboy>as TTDPatch also fails to display the station from the GRF when loading it
07:05<roboboy>but it being activated should mean OpenTTD can find the GRF
07:05<peter1138>I thought TTDPatch just had a list of NewGRFs in its config file which it always loaded.
07:05<@Alberth>I don't know how good the ttdpatch support is in openttd
07:05<SpComb>peter1138: but is acceptable to have a beer and a game of openttd?
07:06<roboboy>but it saves them to the savegame
07:06<peter1138>SpComb, not sure when I last played a game of OpenTTD :(
07:06<@Alberth>ls -lt ~/.openttd/save/autosave :)
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07:07<roboboy>I bet no one has ever tried loading a TTDPatch save game loaded into the TTDPatch scenario editor then saved as a scenario and then into OpenTTD as a scenario before
07:07<Thurak>with Av8 is there anything that can move over 1000 tiles
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07:08<@Alberth>i thought you were playing 512x512?
07:08<roboboy>I think I will have to look firther into TTDPatches code to fix this bug I am looking into
07:08<@Alberth>but I think av8 implements limited aircraft range
07:09<@Alberth>maybe you can disable it with a parameter (but you'd need to start a new game then)
07:10<Thurak>ive been stating over several times
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07:12<Xaroth|Work>roboboy: why the hell would somebody want to do that?
07:13<roboboy>to test either TTDPatch's saving code or OpenTTD's loading code
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07:13<roboboy>I just did and I get told there are missing GRFs that are visible to OpenTTD
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07:14<roboboy>I know TTDPatch is broken somewhere in that process now as I was checking that TTDPatch's scenario loading code wasn't broken
07:15<roboboy>now to go in with a debugger and work out where in the saveing code is broken
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07:18<Thurak>on a 512x512 map, is it 724 tiles from corner to corner, or is it calculated some other way
07:20<peter1138>Probably manhatten distance.
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07:40<SpComb>peter1138: no time like the present
07:41<__ln__>manhatten?
07:42<peter1138>Fat fingers.
07:47<Thurak>do trains work well on short distances?
07:47<peter1138>Yes. You got less profit for short distances, of course, but then that applies to all vehicles.
07:49<Thurak>but planes dont seem to work very well on short distance because of landing circles
07:49<Thurak>cars/trains dont have that, so i guess that makes them better options for short distances
07:52<V453000>trains always work best
07:52<peter1138>Even boat-trains.
07:53<Thurak>trains are annoying to setup tho
07:53<Thurak>expecialy over long distances
07:53<V453000>especially boat-trains :>
07:54<V453000>how are trains annoying to setup? :d
07:57<Thurak>the rails
07:57<Thurak>and for some reason my trains dont like working as i expect
07:59<V453000>you should probably go play tetris instead if you dont like building rails XD
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08:00<Thurak>aww
08:00<Thurak>well, i have a train station
08:00<Thurak>there is always a train loading, but it says im only transporting 75%
08:00<V453000>seriously openttd is mainly about rails
08:01<peter1138>MOAR TRAINS
08:01<V453000>yes because it is almost impossible to have 100% station rating in the long term
08:01<V453000>see wiki.openttd.org and search for station ratings
08:01<V453000>exactly peter1138 :>
08:01<Thurak>its the forest im looking at for transported %
08:02<V453000>yes, and the % transported is influenced by station ratings
08:03<V453000>http://wiki.openttd.org/Station_rating#Station_rating
08:04<Thurak>and the tonns of wood produced is just dropping
08:04<Thurak>it was 99 when i started, its now 60
08:04<peter1138>Happens.
08:04<V453000>will probably grow in the long term though
08:04<peter1138>Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
08:04<V453000>-> MOAR INDUSTRIEZ
08:05<V453000>:)
08:05<peter1138>That's why we build networks.
08:05<Thurak>ive got airships running passengers but airships are about to go out of date
08:05<peter1138>Meh, they're pretty much a novelty item.
08:06<Thurak>they are doing very well
08:08<Thurak>well, the trains are making a nice profit i guess
08:10<Thurak>started on 1920, its now 1950, i have £3.3million
08:10<V453000>so you probably dont know how to spend the money anymore, yet you care about profit
08:10<V453000>gg
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08:12<Thurak>im waiting for the next size airport to unlock
08:14<@planetmaker>aircraft are not the best profit makers... trains scale much better to demand
08:27<Thurak>are planes still bad to use then with Av8?
08:31<@planetmaker>planes are bad to use with airports ;-)
08:31<V453000>:D
08:32<V453000>(y)
08:32<@planetmaker>av8 planes are not worse or better in terms of through-put than default ones. Just that you got more, got realistic names, and got range limitations
08:33<V453000>the range is majorly wtf
08:33<Thurak>well planes dont have infinite fuel
08:33<@planetmaker>well... yes. no.
08:33<Thurak>but... if its got a range of 600, and you make it fly to an airfield 599 blocks away, it can circle around it for 4 hours if nessesary :P
08:33<V453000>I suppose it is nice in the terms of making at least some variety in aircraft, but not being able to see some gui thing how far can my plane go, is just annoying and nothing else :| especially as autoreplacing changes these values
08:34<@planetmaker>such thing is usually taken into account anyway, Thurak. That *is* realistic; contrary to what you seem to assume in your joking remark ;-)
08:35<Thurak>well yes, planes normally carry something like the fuel needed to get to the nearest different airport + 15mins or something like that
08:35<Thurak>yeah some way to measure distance would be nice
08:36<V453000>realistic discussion ftw
08:40<Thurak>can you turn trees off? i find that they make building rails a bit harder as you cant see waht your doing sometimes
08:41<@Alberth>try 'x' and/or CTRL+x :)
08:42<Thurak>thx, that should help
08:42<@Alberth>although anyone playing a realistic game would refrain from such cheats ;)
08:42<roboboy>just remember you will still be charged for removing them
08:44<V453000>XD
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08:53<roboboy>gnight peoples
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09:03<@planetmaker>g'night roboboy
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09:10<Thurak>finally got a railway thats somewhat alright
09:10<Thurak>about 170 in length
09:10<Thurak>£13k per round trip
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09:16<@planetmaker>money figures are so... uncomparable. Currency, inflation enabled yes/no, choice of NewGRFs, map size, starting year, competition. They all have tremendous influence on whether an income number is an achievement or not :-)
09:18<@Belugas>hello
09:20<Thurak>its an achievement if you consider how new i am to openttd :P
09:21<Thurak>wtf did i do that for
09:21<Thurak>i put the station about 20 tiles away from where it was supposed to be
09:23<@planetmaker>heya Belugas
09:26<@Belugas>hello sir planetmaker :)
09:26<@Belugas>lovely friday, before long weekend!
09:27<@Belugas>yes, peter1138... monday i do NOT work@work!
09:27<@planetmaker>oh yes, lovely. Lovely windy, rainy. Quite autumn like :D
09:27<@planetmaker>But weekend is near. Very near :-)
09:28<@Belugas>sat: suny, sun:sunny, mon:rain. today: dazzling!
09:28<@Belugas>can't complain ;)
09:29<@Belugas>all the trees are turning redish, so yeah... fall is there alright
09:37<Prof_Frink>It's just clouded over on the Costa del Purbeck.
09:49<Thurak>why is the game doing this to me D: every time i order a large replacement, half way through a new vehicle thats much better comes out
09:52<@Alberth>you have a newgrf with too many vehicles :)
09:53<Thurak>dont think so, ive got one for hover cars, Av8, and vacuum trains, but im miles away from getting the trains or cars
09:58<@planetmaker>Thurak, it's variety. Offers you choice for different situations and needs ;-)
09:58<@planetmaker>Not 'too many' :D
09:58<Thurak>im just being unlucky with my choice of when to upgrade :P
10:00<@planetmaker>just skip two of three updates :-)
10:01<@Alberth>or give up on the idea that all your trains must use the same engine
10:01<@planetmaker>you don't buy a new car every year just because the manufacturer releases a "new" version
10:03<@Terkhen>hello
10:04<@Alberth>unless you're bored, and have no idea what to do with your money :p
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10:09<@planetmaker>yeah, those people do exist :D
10:09<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen
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10:23<Eddi|zuHause>"X.Org fixes 20 year old security hole"
10:26<peter1138>?
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>CVE-2013-4396
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11:03<Thurak>so painful watching my trains climb a mountain ..
11:04<@Alberth>add another engine
11:05<@Alberth>or use shorter trains :)
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>or enable "realistic" acceleration
11:06<@Belugas>or flattten the mountain
11:06<@Belugas>or add a tunnel
11:07<Thurak>well im on 1952 atm
11:07*Alberth uses a long track to go up a hill: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/long_way_up.png
11:07<Thurak>im just going to accept it i think, it makes £100k per trip
11:07<Thurak>the track is straight for almost 1000 tiles
11:08<@Alberth>how boring
11:08<Thurak>its pretty good tho
11:13<V453000>go use superstrong class :P
11:13<@Alberth>good idea :)
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11:16<Pinkbeast>... write the patch for banking engines :-/
11:17<V453000>why :)
11:19<Pinkbeast>... because the occasional case where you have to double-head something for umpty billion tiles so it can make its way up one lousy hill is vexing and, depending on where you're from, unprototypical?
11:19<V453000>wait what is a banking engine ._.
11:20<Pinkbeast>In British steam-era usage (and maybe some other places), you stop at the bottom of a steep hill and a "banking engine" is coupled on at the back.
11:20<V453000>lol
11:20<Pinkbeast>The name means what it does, not what it _is_ - there were very few dedicated banking engines.
11:21<V453000>why not set max_height to 1 already XD
11:21<V453000>cause that is all it would do for gameplay
11:21<Pinkbeast>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MR_0-10-0_Lickey_Banker is the odd case of a locomotive built to go up a particular bank
11:22<Pinkbeast>Er, no, it seems clear it would have very different effects to setting max_height to 1
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11:25<Eddi|zuHause>banking engines are still very common in germany
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>but they are not a "dedicated series" anymore
11:26<V453000>germany trains are obviously in the steam age :P
11:26<V453000>typically the ICEs :P
11:26<Pinkbeast>Eddi|zuHause: Well, "Big Bertha"'s very much the oddball in being a dedicated banking design.
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes, even ICEs sometimes get a banking engines, when less than half the motor units are operational
11:27<Pinkbeast>Oh, there's the LNER U1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_U1) as well
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>well the bavarians had http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayerische_Gt_2×4/4
11:28<Pinkbeast>But Bertha's more specific to one bank inasmuch as she couldn't go around many of the corners on the rest of the railway.
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>well german steep lines tend to have the sharpest corners as well
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>there's very little places where you go straight up the hill :p
11:29<Pinkbeast>Yes, Bertha couldn't have been used on other banks, even. :-/
11:29<Pinkbeast>That German one's a bit mad, most impressive
11:34<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25827 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2013-10-11 15:34:04 UTC)
11:34<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5768]: Unify capitalization of strings used in Sort-By dropdown menu
11:40<Thurak>whats an easy way to convert from regular to electric rails
11:40<Thurak>would i just have to sell all the trains, and replace all rails
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>there is a "convert" button on the right of the rail toolbar
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>just drag this over your rails, and you're done
11:41<Pinkbeast>Thurak: It only gets hard when converting to monorail/maglev where the existing trains can't run
11:41<Thurak>oh wait, the steam/diesel trains would still run over electric wont they
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>then use the autoreplace function
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:41<Thurak>autoreplace?
11:41<Thurak>for autoreplace do you mean for rails or the trains
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>convert is for rails, replace is for trains
11:41<Thurak>ok
11:42<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25828 trunk/src/widgets/dropdown.cpp (2013-10-11 15:41:55 UTC)
11:42<@DorpsGek>-Doc [FS#5785]: Description of parameters for ShowDropDownMenu was partially swapped (3298)
11:42<peter1138>+r?
11:42<Thurak>ahh so i can just drag the upgrade over my whole map, yay :D
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>naybe "3298" is a nickname? :p
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>+m
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>-n
11:43<peter1138>mickmane
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:44<Pinkbeast>Thurak: If you're at the money-is-irrelevant point, yes. :-/
11:45<Thurak>im at the point where money is somewhat irrelevant
11:45<Thurak>i cant convert oceans to land yet, but converting rails is easy
11:45<@Alberth>too easy, imho
11:46<Pinkbeast>With NuRails I find the point where you have to do line-by-line upgrades is at least later
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>use a track set with extreme cost progression
11:47<Thurak>well i have the vacuum trains newGRF, i think it said they can go up to 4100mph
11:47<Thurak>not sure what the acceleration is like tho
11:48<@planetmaker>10 cm/s^2 ;-)
11:48<V453000>one of the dumber newGRFs :)
11:48<Pinkbeast>I miss the UKRS1 goods/pax maglevs that didn't just replace the whole universe
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, almost as unrealistic as NUTS :p
11:49<V453000>why do you miss them? :)
11:49<V453000>they are still there?
11:49<Pinkbeast>Because UKRS2 is so compelling in other respects I use it instead.
11:49<V453000>2 looks pretty bad to me
11:50<Pinkbeast>Don't use it, then.
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11:50<V453000>I dont? :)
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11:53<Thurak>can you disable those mesages at the bottom that say when something is running negative profit
11:54<Pinkbeast>Thurak: Trouble is, sometimes they matter. Feeder services strike again?
11:55<Thurak>no its just because the rail is so long
11:55<Thurak>it can take them over a year to get around
11:55<Thurak>so it will have a loss of £5000 or so, but when it then gets to the end, it makes me £300k
11:56<Pinkbeast>That's a bit of a special case. :-/
11:56<Sturmi>yes you can disable them, its somewhere in the advanced settings
11:58<Thurak>ahh something to spend my millions on, concorde
11:59<Thurak>derp... concorde can only go 1000 tiles
11:59<V453000>lol
11:59<V453000>njoy realism XD
12:00<Pinkbeast>Couldn't you stop it with no load/unload at an intermediate airport?
12:01<V453000>XD
12:01<Sturmi>will concorde crash in y2000
12:04<Thurak>shortly after i think
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12:17<@planetmaker>hm... can anyone follow FS#5783? http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5783
12:19<Thurak>is there an easy way to upgrade an airport
12:20<Thurak>or must i send all the planes somewhere else and rebuild
12:20<@planetmaker>destroy. And re-build.
12:20<Thurak>ok, gota work out what to do with the planes then..
12:20<@planetmaker>And then be mad that local authority doesn't allow re-building ;-)
12:20<@planetmaker>you can close airports...
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>i just click on every approaching plane and skip to next order
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>until the airport is empty
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>pausing helps a lot :)
12:23<Thurak>i send all to hangar, and sold all in the airport i was going to replace :P
12:23<Thurak>then rebought htem again
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12:44<Taede>i think he means that the goto-button in vehicle orders no longer shows as active, though the cursor is still in 'assign next click as go-to order' mode
12:46<Taede>depends on which goto-dropdown option you select, the bug seems to manifest when having goto active, then clicking 'share orders' from the drop-down
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12:47<Taede>is that helping or am i just confusing you even more?
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12:55<@planetmaker>maybe that's it... I found that the button remains active
12:56<Taede><- using r25826
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12:56<@planetmaker>ah, yes. It remains not active when selecting another option a 2nd time
12:57<@planetmaker>ty
12:58<andythenorth>o/
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13:29<Thurak>great.. i add more trains and im now making smaller profits
13:30<Pinkbeast>Thurak: Are they running empty?
13:30<Thurak>no, i think i might need to make it 2 rails each way
13:31<andythenorth>@seen danmack
13:31<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 20 hours, 39 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <DanMacK> not yet
13:32<Thurak>on the bright side i have 6 trains in station all the time ready to accept the coal
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13:35<Pinkbeast>That may be, er, too many trains.
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25829 /trunk/src/lang (english_US.txt vietnamese.txt) (2013-10-11 17:45:19 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 2 changes by Supercheese
13:45<@DorpsGek>vietnamese - 9 changes by nglekhoi
13:48<Thurak>well im trying to improve the coal mine atm
13:48<Thurak>hopefully it will rise enough to fill this many trains eventually
13:50<Pinkbeast>Sell the trains for now, use the capital elsewhere, keep an eye on "waiting cargo" to see when it improves. I suggest.
13:51<Thurak>each train delivery makes me £800k
13:51<Thurak>the trains cost less than that
13:51<Pinkbeast>But (not to be Captain Obvious) if waiting for full loads, line capacity is used up by the mine's production, not by waiting empty trains.
13:51<Pinkbeast>Thurak: I daresay, but you still can't deliver more coal than the mine produces and the excess trains are wasted.
13:51<Thurak>yeah its set to full loads, and now i added more signals and improved the lines a bit, the coal mine is the bottleneck
13:52<Thurak>true, but the coal output can increace
13:52<Thurak>ive futureproofed it
13:52<Pinkbeast>I suppose if money is semi-irrelevant...
13:53<Pinkbeast>The thing to watch for is where capacity decreases and you get a backlog of trains waiting to get into the station.
13:53<Thurak>ahh time to upgrade to maglev
13:55<Pinkbeast>*blink* weren't you in the 50s last time we checked?
13:55<Thurak>yeah
13:55<Thurak>2025 now
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13:58<Thurak>damn, hills really slow down maglevs
13:59<Thurak>tho quick acceleration again after
13:59<Pinkbeast>I forget how fast the game is without a daylength patch... time to start digging canyons?
14:00<Thurak>canyons?
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14:01<Thurak>when i get the vacuum trains in a few years ill make a long flat straight line over the sea :P
14:01<Pinkbeast>If hills slow down maglevs, remove the hills. # some people find this a bit gamey
14:01<Thurak>since i have enough cash to make a land bridge
14:01<andythenorth>adventures in python #1812
14:02<andythenorth>self.some_list = [self]
14:02<andythenorth>Alberth: ?? ^
14:02<andythenorth>wise?
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14:02<Thurak>4100 km/h trains.. maybe i should make a 2k map next
14:03<Sturmi>o.O
14:03<@Alberth>andythenorth: doesn't look wrong, but it depends a bit on what "some_list" represents
14:03<andythenorth>something I want to iterate over later, calling item.method()
14:04<andythenorth>it's only going to put a reference to the object in, right?
14:04<@Alberth>I would expect that list to be in some more global class
14:04<andythenorth>I'm not going to get stuck in some recursion?
14:04<@Alberth>no, it'll work fine
14:04<andythenorth>I could rearchitect it to be less odd
14:04<andythenorth>but that involves work
14:04<andythenorth>and the only payoff is elegance :P
14:05<@Alberth>unless you call a method that walks over some_list recursively :)
14:05<andythenorth>well self.some_list is in __init__
14:05<andythenorth>so if I called __init__ in the iterator, that will go badly
14:06<andythenorth>I'll refactor it iff it solves the actual problem
14:06<andythenorth>:)
14:06<@Alberth>no, what I mean is def f(): for x in self.some_list: x.f()
14:06<andythenorth>yeah
14:07<andythenorth>that might be unwanted
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14:21<andythenorth>so putting 8/8 graphics on 1/8 leading part does cause tunnel clipping
14:21<andythenorth>for the record
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14:22<peter1138>Suprise..
14:35*Belugas is back behind his keyboard
14:35*Belugas is away from keyboard, fetching some coffee
14:36*Belugas is back behind his keyboard, burping
14:37<@Belugas>it's fun, isn't it? you all know what i'm doing :P
14:39<peter1138>Err...
14:40<andythenorth>can you instagram us a picture?
14:40<andythenorth>on twitter?
14:42<@Rubidium>evening
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well my template solves tunnel clipping
14:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I am prepping to copy your template :)
14:43<andythenorth>I concluded it's easier to copy your template into my compiler
14:43<andythenorth>than adapt your compiler to the existing set ;)
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>you should easily be able to skip the part about turning angles
14:49<peter1138>Oooh, I found 50p
14:49<andythenorth>instagram
14:49<Supercheese>50 vertical lines progressive scan?
14:49<andythenorth>what actually is instagram?
14:50<peter1138>A silly image sharing site with a frontend program designed to apply shoddy filters to make photos like bad Polaroids.
14:50<peter1138>+look
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14:52<Wolf01>hello
14:52<@Alberth>hello
15:06<andythenorth>hmm
15:06<andythenorth>how many graphics blocks can a vehicle have in nml?
15:06<andythenorth>just 1, or > 1?
15:07<andythenorth>compiles fine with > 1
15:08<frosch123>likely only the last one takes effect
15:08<andythenorth>seems that all work
15:08<andythenorth>I don't repeat callbacks
15:08<@planetmaker>yes, they all should work. If you define one callback twice, the last of those should be used
15:08<andythenorth>each block handles different stuff
15:08<@planetmaker>maybe it's an error then
15:09<andythenorth>afaict all is fine
15:09<@planetmaker>yes. Just defining the same callback several times not
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15:10<andythenorth>ta
15:20<andythenorth>hmm, most recent commits are translations
15:20<andythenorth>so how about fixing newgrf effect vehicles? o_O
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16:10<andythenorth>fun times with 'bad marshal data'
16:10<andythenorth>:P
16:10<@Alberth>:)
16:10-!-oskari892 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
16:10*andythenorth hunts down .pyc files
16:11<@Alberth>find . -type f -name "*.pyc" -print
16:11<andythenorth>how handy
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16:18<@Alberth>it can also delete them for you ;)
16:21<andythenorth>I have been using rm src/*.pyc etc
16:21<andythenorth>seems to work
16:22*andythenorth is leet at unix :P
16:22<@Alberth>yeah, shell globbing is quite powerful :)
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16:40*andythenorth is having significant 'meh' about this train set
16:49<andythenorth>I have to wrap all vehicles up in some silly pseudo consist object
16:49<andythenorth>and do loads of boilerplate admin
16:50<Taede>hire an assistant?
16:50<andythenorth>good call
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16:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: can I pick your brain on terminology
16:53<andythenorth>the code is fricking simple, but distinguishing concepts is not :P
16:54*andythenorth can't even formulate a sensible question :P
16:54<andythenorth>the fundamental problem is that vehicles can contain vehicles
16:54<andythenorth>which is all wrong
16:54<andythenorth>because then vehicles can contain vehicles which contain vehicles
16:54<andythenorth>recursively
16:55<frosch123>meta vehicles :)
16:55<TinoDidriksen>The well known truck truck truck.
16:55<andythenorth>it's stupid :P
16:55<andythenorth>the problem is only that I can't think of correct terms :P
16:55<andythenorth>'consist' is already taken
16:56<andythenorth>the case I need to handle is vehicles with visible articulated parts
16:56<andythenorth>each visible articulated part is made up of invisible parts and visible parts
16:56<andythenorth>all of these are just vehicles, except that the first vehicle is an articulated vehicle
16:56<Taede>construct?
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's how CETS works
16:56<Taede>golem?
16:57<frosch123>vehicles and sub-vehicles
16:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: do you have terminology?
16:57<andythenorth>I know the spec inside out for this, but I've never dealt with this insanity before :P
16:57<andythenorth>it's a non issue for RVs
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>i call the invisible parts "slice"
16:57<frosch123>units and sub-vehicles
16:58<andythenorth>ok, so vehicles are made up of slices
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16:58<Eddi|zuHause>yes, one vehicle consists of either 1 or 3 slices (technically the code allows flexibility here, but those are the only ones used)
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>then an articulated consist can have multiple vehicles (like engine and tender, or MU)
16:59<andythenorth>so you use consist for that?
16:59<andythenorth>even though it conflates with ottd's definition of consist?
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>not entirely sure
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>the code only talks about "articulated parts", never the whole unit
17:00<andythenorth>ok
17:00<andythenorth>and each articulated part might have capacity etc?
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:00<andythenorth>and that is always on the first slice of the articulated part?
17:01<andythenorth>unless it's invalid for an articulated part?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>except for weight, which the stupid specs don't allow (yet)
17:01<andythenorth>in which case it goes on the leading part of the consist
17:01<andythenorth>and all of this is worth it to allow 10/8 long sprites?
17:01<andythenorth>we can't just patch ottd? :P
17:02<andythenorth>(I know you have the turning angles case) :)
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: look in scripts/write_engine.py, i have there two sections "properties_slice" and "properties_master"
17:02<andythenorth>got it
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>"master" is only for the part that gets actual capacity, speed and stuff
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>and "slice" mostly sets everything to 0, except length
17:03<andythenorth>and you define master as first in list?
17:03<andythenorth>looks like
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>yes. looks like :)
17:04<andythenorth>where's the input file in the repo?
17:04<andythenorth>want to see how you define trailing vehicles with stats
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>src/table/blah
17:04<andythenorth>oh it's quite big :)
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>use https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkXAVZqXTFQxdHM3UlpWM1hPZWpfeTlkdnZsMldjSkE&hl=de#gid=0 for better overview
17:05<andythenorth>ta
17:06<andythenorth>also big
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>tenders etc. get "dummy" entry, which makes them never available for purchase
17:06<andythenorth>yeah
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>then they get stats as usual
17:07<andythenorth>the tricky case I have is something like part 1 (50t) part 2 (33t) part 3 (80t)
17:07<andythenorth>also each part has different lengths etc
17:07<andythenorth>I need a clean interface to define that, which was not in scope for the original set design
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>in "Set" column the "spec" entry controls the availability
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>and the front vehicle gets an entry in the "artic" columns to decide which vehicle will be attached
17:09<andythenorth>bingo
17:09*andythenorth has been thinking about it all wrong
17:09<andythenorth>just do this old style
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: like i said, weight is currently problematic, because it's completely ignored by the game
17:10<andythenorth>yeah
17:10<andythenorth>but that's resolvable
17:10<andythenorth>I solved it for BANDIT
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>i think i handle that in processing.py somewhere
17:10<andythenorth>it is a total PITA though
17:10<andythenorth>articulated consist stuff is a train wreck :P
17:11<andythenorth>I can see why pikka gave up on this
17:11<frosch123>night
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17:12<andythenorth>right, bed time
17:12<andythenorth>thanks Eddi|zuHause you have cheered me up ;)
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there are some details about the table on the very bottom, if you want to understand some things :)
17:14<andythenorth>seen them
17:15<andythenorth>I still don't quite see how I'm going to solve this
17:15<andythenorth>it's become a death march now ;P
17:15<andythenorth>but I have more ideas
17:16<andythenorth>I won't be happy until I've understood it for myself
17:16<andythenorth>traditionally I'd build articulated consists by just defining each trailing part as a vehicle
17:16<andythenorth>and then building them
17:16<andythenorth>but that's simply not possible here
17:16<andythenorth>I have to wrap each trailing part up in some pseudo vehicle crap
17:17<andythenorth>which all has to be referenced from lead part
17:17<andythenorth>if articulated parts could themselves be articulated it would be trivial ;)
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17:21<andythenorth>I guess I just introduce a consist class
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17:22<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, sounds sensible. just have to flatten it for the articulated callback
17:23<andythenorth>it's more boilerplate in my python files defining each vehicle too :P
17:23<andythenorth>but I'll live with it
17:23<andythenorth>the alternative is complicated
17:24<andythenorth>my code starts to look like javascript
17:24<andythenorth>nested brackets and crap everywhere
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17:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: does this formatting look all wrong to you? (don't worry about actual code content) http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=H5AyAk79
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>i'd probably not align it to the position of (, and put a newline behind the (
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>blah foo(
17:29<Eddi|zuHause> x
17:29<Eddi|zuHause> y
17:29<Eddi|zuHause> z
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>)
17:31<andythenorth>ta
17:31<Wolf01>'night
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17:37<andythenorth>bye
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18:33<djura-san>hi there. I started playing this addictive game but i have one question: is there any way to save opened windows and load them when i load save? It is really annoying that i have to do that every single time
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>no, that is not (yet) possible
18:35<djura-san>aha, "yet" part indicates that it will be in future. Thank you for that info :)
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18:36<djura-san>also one more question: is there time limit to this game? i started at 1930 but can i play it till... 4506?
18:37<gynter>single player or online?
18:37<gynter>on online it depends on server settings
18:38<djura-san>offline
18:38<djura-san>(single player)
18:38<gynter>afaik not
18:39<djura-san>wow, i'm starting to like this game a lot. IT looks a little old but i'm used to this in linux world: looks old (graphics) but the internals and mechanics are mindblowing.
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>there is a "score" calculated at 2050, but you can play on until the year 5000000
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>(you can play on afterwards, but it won't count the years up anymore)
18:40<gynter>djura-san: well it's pased on TTD
18:40<djura-san>thank you for your answers, i will push my luck till i can :)
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>the original game is from 1994
18:40<gynter>yes
18:40<gynter>djura-san: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Tycoon
18:40<djura-san>yes, i figured that much out. I like the fact that i can build minimal game and just enjoy it
18:41<djura-san>64x64 tile, no founding industries and a little money. It is just too good
18:41<gynter>Yes, I like small maps too
18:43<djura-san>i managed to earn 1.900.000€ with 156 rail parts. only 2 trains, no headache. Really a pleasure to play it
18:44<Supercheese>While you cannot save opened windows, you can save their default size and save whether or not they are uncloseable when pressing del (or other key if you've remapped)
18:44<Supercheese>the little square button deals with default sizing, while the pin/tack button deals with closeability ('stickiness')
18:46<gynter>djura-san: you should play online :)
18:46<djura-san>gynter: i dont like online play in general but thank you for the tip.
18:48<djura-san>oh i got monies to build a bank. let's see how will that work :)
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18:58<Eddi|zuHause>you build two banks and shove valuables back and forth
19:01<djura-san>i figured out that i would need 2 banks so i went out to upgrade rail > monorail. Monies monies :)
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19:07<djura-san>okay, thank you for this chat, i will go now. Have a nice day/evening :)
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19:40<Bad_Brett>hihiihhhihiihihiih
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 12 00:00:58 2013