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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-10-12

---Logopened Sat Oct 12 00:00:58 2013
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03:20<Thurak>would trucks/planes be good for an initial startup? to get enough money for buying some rails
03:30<@planetmaker>moin
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03:31<@planetmaker>Thurak, yes. yes. and trains would do, too. Or ships.
03:31<@Alberth>moin
03:32<Thurak>with the starting 100k, or 300k if you borrow extra, wouldnt be enough for a long track
03:32<Thurak>tho i suppose i could do a smaller one
03:32<@Alberth>very long ones are not so interesting to build imho
03:33<@Alberth>they make a lot of money, but that's not a very interesting property, as you'll swim in it soon enough :)
03:34<Thurak>i like the long fast flattened ones :P
03:34<@Alberth>why?
03:34<juzza1>i only build trains, and usually start with a short-ish "money maker" cargo train
03:34<juzza1>then build longer rails later on
03:35<@Alberth>if you build on non-flat terrain, and leave the terrain mostly alone, it's much more challenging to build tracks.
03:35<@Alberth>The "flatten everything and build a long straight track" is so easy :)
03:36<Thurak>but ill be using vacuum tracks, so up to 4100kmh :P
03:37<@Alberth>it's just a number :)
03:38<Thurak>shh, im 19 and im supposed to like big numbers in games
03:40<V453000>number which causes the train run so fast that you can barely see it sounds rather dumb though :)
03:40<__ln__>Thurak: you mean: i'll, im
03:40<__ln__>*i'm
03:41<@planetmaker>Thurak, the starting money is enough for me to start rail services
03:41<@planetmaker>not from one edge to the next. But medium distance (100 tiles or so)
03:41<@planetmaker>good enough for decent money gain
03:41<Thurak>ah right
03:41<@planetmaker>like juzza said :-)
03:42<@planetmaker>and yes. I never terraform terrain :-)
03:42<V453000>I start with trains and then continue with trains
03:42<V453000>sometimes I mix some trains in
03:42<Supercheese>road trains?
03:42<V453000>you dont need to terraform at all for the first few years really :)
03:43<@planetmaker>nor actually in the later years
03:43<@planetmaker>well. slightly for largish stations or for some elaborate hubs
03:43<@planetmaker>but only tile by tile as it's strictly needed
03:43<@planetmaker>makes things also look nicer. IMHO
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03:45<V453000>ofc just a few tiles :)
03:46<V453000>but I usually expand to LL_RR after around 4 years, that is when a few tiles are usually necessary
03:46<V453000>could generalize that to "tf is needed in first expanding" :P
03:52<@planetmaker>yeah. Where 'needed' is a rather chewing gum definition ;-)
03:53<V453000>more or less :)
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03:59<Wolf01>hi hi
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04:08<@Alberth>moin
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04:47<andythenorth>moin
04:47<@Alberth>moin
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04:58<andythenorth>I tried to reproduce some of the OS X bugs
04:58<andythenorth>but they require old old old OS X versions :(
04:58<andythenorth>and they don't look particularly reliable to reproduce
05:02<andythenorth>one of them reports for 10.4 on a G3
05:02<andythenorth>that's an 8 year old operating system, on a chip which hasn't been available in a new mac for 10 years
05:03<@Alberth>that's one way to solve bugs :p
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05:03<andythenorth>I look at it this way
05:04<andythenorth>is anybody going to fix it, before the heat death of the universe?
05:04<andythenorth>o_O
05:05<andythenorth>if you buy a mac and run OS X on it, you've implicitly or explicitly bought into rapid obsolescence
05:05<andythenorth>so why expect old-version support from open source projects?
05:05<andythenorth>if you don't like it, run linux on your PPC, or get VirtualBox for intel macs
05:07<andythenorth>or go buy a dell :)
05:08<__ln__>andythenorth: openttd only supports old OS X versions, not the newer ones explicitly.
05:10<andythenorth>I would close this one http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5694
05:10<andythenorth>although fonso has been working on it :)
05:11<__ln__>why? is it fixed?
05:12*andythenorth has a trigger-happy approach to closing bugs as "won't fix"
05:12<andythenorth>ymmv
05:13<__ln__>but why the f would that one be a wontfix, as it is even reproducible, and happens on a platform that is well supported by openttd.
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05:14<andythenorth>what does supported mean
05:14<andythenorth>?
05:16<__ln__>if you ask people responsible of the builds, they will tell that ppc was never the problem, only intel.
05:17<andythenorth>why fix bugs for a dead cpu platform though?
05:17<andythenorth>seems like a waste of effort
05:17<andythenorth>unless it's interesting :)
05:18<__ln__>it's obviously not dead, as people are reporting bugs in 2013 and others debugging the bugs in 2013.
05:18<andythenorth>[shrug]
05:18<andythenorth>they're mac users
05:18<andythenorth>if they want long-lasting support, they should buy a different OS
05:19*andythenorth isn't trying to start an argument :)
05:19<andythenorth>it's just a point of view
05:19<andythenorth>different OS / hardware /s
05:20<__ln__>i'm not sure if RedHat Enterprise Linux is available for G3/G4.
05:21<__ln__>andythenorth: btw, OS X 10.4 is several years newer than Windows XP.
05:21<andythenorth>true
05:21<andythenorth>I got the impression that MS offer longer-lasting support
05:21<andythenorth>might be wrong, didn't check the dates
05:21<__ln__>true, XP is still supported for a few months. but even they don't offer support for OpenTTD.
05:22<__ln__>they = microsoft
05:22<andythenorth>my point is more about the ethics of the platform
05:22<andythenorth>open source has a general ethos of long lasting support
05:22<andythenorth>but the hardware / OS vendor attitudes vary wildly
05:23<andythenorth>and the expectations of users ought to be matched to the hardware / OS vendor they bought
05:23<andythenorth>mac users who expect long lasting support are a bit naive
05:24<andythenorth>anyway, to change the discussion, I can't repro any of the reported OS X bugs with the system I have in front of me :P
05:24<__ln__>andythenorth: you're mistaken. if by open source you mean e.g. Linux, how many distros released in mid-2005 (same time as OS X 10.4) are still supported?
05:24<andythenorth>dunno :)
05:26<__ln__>RHEL 4, released in 2005, actually is in some "extended life cycle" phase until 2015. i doubt there are others.
05:27<andythenorth>interesting
05:27<andythenorth>every day is a school day
05:27<andythenorth>so for a recent RHEL, how far back might hardware support go?
05:29<__ln__>minimum ram for RHEL6 installer is probably 512MB if not even 1GB. that sets some limits.
05:30<andythenorth>interesting
05:31<andythenorth>also I just upgraded my wife's 10.7 mac to 10.8 :x, so I can't try any of the 10.7.x bugs either :(
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05:40<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the interesting thing about ppc support is that it's the "test platform" for big endian (all others are little endian) processors
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05:55<fonsinchen>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5694 is a problem of the compile farm
05:55<fonsinchen>The ICU binary is broken for PPC
05:59<fonsinchen>Either we have to compile without ICU for PPC or we have to compile ICU properly. The last time I tried ICU wouldn't compile on 10.4/PPC.
06:05-!-LordAro [~LordAro@sns61-63.york.ac.uk] has joined #openttd
06:06<@Alberth>hi LordAro
06:06<LordAro>/o Alberth and all
06:18-!-bon [~18c83e2f@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
06:18<bon>hi
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>... or we drop PPC support :)
06:23<bon>mm what this about?
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>@logs
06:24<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
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06:31<bon>heh I don't have much to say other than this being exactly why I like things like ogl etc..they still can be written for one generation but still function just fine on other prior generation cards too
06:32<bon>(bit offtopic I know)
06:38<fonsinchen>We should just build two versions for OSX: 10.3 - 10.4 PPC and 10.4+ universal. For 10.4 PPC the pure PPC build should be used. Then we can build the PPC version without ICU and everyone will be happy.
06:39<fonsinchen>(Except for the guy who has to set up all that mess on the CF)
06:42<bon>mm I'll be inclined to say that 10.3-10.4 restriction sounds good. <=10.2 was always a bit too early and buggy (whatever ran that could run 10.3 anyway)
06:46<TinoDidriksen>Why bother with <= 10.4 at all? Anyone still running that?
06:48<bon>tino its mainly to do with restore cd versions but also from hardcoded "hardware check" limits at times too
06:48<bon>theres other reasons too but not that I've personally seen them so much here yet
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06:52*andythenorth has had one of those days http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OneMoreLevelOfIndirection
06:54<bon>tino I did a quick check. indeed 10.5 doesn't support several cpus
06:56<bon>interesting article there. I like the parallelism remarks
06:56<@Terkhen>good morning
06:58<bon>hi terkhen
06:59<andythenorth>c2 wiki is always good value
07:00<bon>mm
07:10<bon>heh hey eddi I know its old but looking at the log I see you refered to the bayerische gt 2x4/4 .. thats one of the few favorite german steam locomotives of mine :p
07:10<frosch123>@base 16 10 1000
07:10<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 4096
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07:28<frosch123>@base 10 16 64000
07:28<@DorpsGek>frosch123: FA00
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07:48<peter1138>Hmm, I read @base as abuse :S
07:48<frosch123>abuse would be using octal
07:49<bon>heh?
07:50*andythenorth is writing css
07:50<andythenorth>larks
07:53<bon>Can Sit Still? ;)
07:53<bon>heh heh
08:00<peter1138>Larks!
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08:12<andythenorth>what's it all about eh?
08:18*bon wonders the same
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08:29<peter1138>So singleton or static class?
08:30<Wolf01>singleton, for example I found static classes in PHP are totally shit
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08:43<peter1138>Fortunately I'm not using PHP :)
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09:00<andythenorth>static class
09:01<andythenorth>you might find you need more than one :P
09:01<andythenorth>margin or padding?
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09:03<frosch123>how to test a patch past compilation?
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09:07<Thurak>wow found a newGRF for 1850 trains
09:08<andythenorth>which one?
09:08<@planetmaker>frosch123, which patch?
09:08<frosch123>mine
09:08<frosch123>but it crashes loading the title screen
09:08<frosch123>obnoxious savegame conversion :)
09:08<@planetmaker>:-)
09:09<peter1138>That's a lot of trains.
09:09<@planetmaker>peter1138, game year maybe?
09:09<andythenorth>@calc 1850 / 150
09:09<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 12.3333333333
09:10<Thurak>North american renewal set
09:10<Thurak>trains for 1850 to 2050
09:10<andythenorth>oh
09:11<andythenorth>silly old andythenorth
09:11<andythenorth>I thought you meant it has 1850 trains in it
09:11<V453000>LOL
09:11<Thurak>oh :P
09:12<@Alberth>or it can hold 1850 trains :p
09:13<Thurak>hmm this one sounds useful
09:13<Thurak>progressive rail set, makes upgrading rails easier
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09:13<Thurak>electric can run on monorail, and monorail can run on maglev
09:17<@Alberth>so boring, why not make new tracks instead of upgrading existing ones?
09:17<Thurak>surely do both
09:18<Thurak>upgrade the old, and make new
09:21<V453000>go use universal rails :)
09:22<Thurak>are there any truch newGRFs for 1850 or so
09:22<Thurak>truck*
09:23<andythenorth>egrvts
09:23<andythenorth>horses
09:23<Thurak>also that makes me start to wonder when would the first trucks have been made
09:23<andythenorth>1905 or so
09:23<andythenorth>for mass productions
09:23<andythenorth>HEQS has trams
09:23<andythenorth>try HEQS and egrvts together
09:24<Thurak>arent trams more like rails
09:24<@planetmaker>well. In the game they're more like roads
09:24<Thurak>is that a typo? it says 1980-2070
09:24<Thurak>but then says horse drawn carriages
09:25<Thurak>or eGRVTS2
09:25<Thurak>for*
09:25<frosch123>does someone here have a savegame with tons of new objects?
09:26<frosch123>(as in, not only loaded newgrf, but also on the map)
09:26<@planetmaker>hm... I guess I don't :-(
09:26<@planetmaker>But I think I know where you come from :D
09:27<@planetmaker>more different objects, or could it be the same?
09:27<frosch123>wasn't there someone filling the map with dutch road furniture?
09:28<frosch123>or should i search for a drag&drop buy land patch?
09:32<Thurak>think ill start a game on very rough and mountainous now
09:32<frosch123>very rough usually looks boring
09:32<frosch123>very repetitive
09:32<Thurak>oh really?
09:32<Thurak>what would be a good one to use
09:33<frosch123>mountainious and low variety distribution is a good start
09:33<frosch123>medium roughness
09:33<Thurak>ok
09:33<Thurak>medium roughness, so smooth?
09:33<Thurak>or just 'rough'
09:33<frosch123>just try
09:34<Thurak>ok
09:34<frosch123>also higher water levels (30% or so) can somehow improve map structure
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09:34<frosch123>though it's kind of weird
09:35<Thurak>ok that looks pretty good
09:39<Thurak>oh my, i could start in 1700
09:40<peter1138>I had a better map generator once...
09:40<Thurak>tho once i get the stuff from 1700, it takes 130 years before i get anything new
09:40<frosch123>Thurak: make sure to disable inflation
09:41<frosch123>noone starting in 1800 has so far managed to reach 19xx without bankrupting
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09:41<Thurak>oh wow.. why?
09:41<@planetmaker>:-)
09:41<Thurak>shouldnt your income also increace with inflation
09:41<@planetmaker>try and find out :D
09:41<frosch123>because expenses increase faster than income wrt. inflation
09:41<Thurak>ahh..
09:42<frosch123>which bankrupts you if technology does not improve at the same rate
09:42<Thurak>also with that inflation.. what would things be costing
09:43<Thurak>1700 to 2000 at 2% per year, £1 goes to £308
09:43<Thurak>£380*
09:45<frosch123>hmm, wiki does not even list a drag buy land patch :/
09:49<Thurak>now... 1700 start, this might be interesting
09:49<andythenorth>it won't be
09:49<Thurak>aww
09:49<andythenorth>starting early is really slow :)
09:49<andythenorth>but don't let me spoil it :)
09:49<Thurak>wel i know transport speed is going to be slow
09:49<Thurak>but its also cheap
09:49<andythenorth>just be prepared to make a lot of coffee while you wait for deliveries
09:50<Thurak>mmm :)
09:50<Sturmi>that would need a new industry chain for coffee
09:51*frosch123 hardcodes that purchaseing land is only possible in batches of 256x200 tiles
09:52<@Alberth>lol
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10:00<@planetmaker>:D
10:01<frosch123>hmm, triggered an assertion when blitter switched in game :s
10:02<frosch123>deadlocked draw mutex or so
10:07<Thurak>well im making a profit, tho it is pretty small..
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10:19<Thurak>usefull.. i have 2 sawmills right next to each other
10:19<Thurak>they are touching on the corners
10:20<@planetmaker>can be. If you ship more wood to the station than one saw mill can process in a month
10:22<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/File:PSG176.png ;-)
10:23<Thurak>i wasnt planning on shipping the goods somewhere after
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10:34<Thurak>why is the value of my passengers degresing
10:34<Thurak>before it was 300 or so at the end of the trip, now its less
10:35<@planetmaker>payment is only determined upon delivery. You're too slow for the distance :-)
10:36<Thurak>but the time and distance is the same as it was before
10:36<Thurak>before when i looked at the info sheet it said the value was almost 700 for my first one
10:40<Thurak>oh its the value of the truck >.<
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10:51<Thurak>are advanced settigns set when you start a game or can you change in the middle
10:52<FLHerne>Thurak: Depends, most are changeable
10:52<FLHerne>Thurak: Anything you can't change is greyed out
10:53<FLHerne>You can't change stuff while an MP game is running, but you can load the save in SP, change settings, then rehost
10:53<FLHerne>s/stuff/game-state-affecting stuff/
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11:00<@planetmaker>@calc 2**14
11:00<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 16384
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11:44<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/allmine.png <- best feature ever
11:45<Thurak>whats that?
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11:45<Sturmi3>buyallatonce patch?
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>drag&drop buy=
11:46<Thurak>um ok
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>the mother of all anti-features :p
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11:46<zydeco>I can see that possibly being abused
11:46<@planetmaker>:-)
11:46<Thurak>when is it a good time to set full load any cargo
11:46<Thurak>and when is it a bad time to do so
11:47<zydeco>maybe a train with the same space for grain and livestock loading at a farm
11:48<@planetmaker>^ for instance
11:48<Thurak>well atm im only moving pasengers in trams
11:48<@planetmaker>or mail+pax
11:48<Thurak>horse trams, fastest are about 20mph
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>good: if your train carries 300 wood and 8 mail, and the station near the forest doesn't provide mail. bad: if your train carries 300 wood and 8 mail, and the station near the forest provides mail
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11:48<@planetmaker>hehe ^
11:50<Thurak>well currently i have it set, and one of the stations cant provide enough to fill them
11:50<Thurak>and the other is overflowing
11:50<Thurak>is there a way to change lots of trams at once to full load at the overflowing one only?
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>you generalls yon't use full load for symmetric cargos like passengers
11:51<Thurak>ok
11:51<@Alberth>it won't take long before there are more passengers than you can handle :p
11:51<Thurak>yeah :P
11:51<zydeco>if you have vehicles doing the same things, it would be convenient to use shared orders
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11:52<@Alberth>they all take and bring stuff?
11:52<zydeco>but if the station already provides more passengers than you can handle, you don't need a full load order
11:52<Thurak>then i need a way to stagger my trams
11:52-!-FLHerne [~FLHerne@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: is it possible you're lacking a font for japanese town names?
11:52<Thurak>atm i have this massive bunch up of 20, and the rest of the track is empty
11:53<zydeco>timetables?
11:53<Thurak>whats that?
11:53<Thurak>http://wiki.openttd.org/Timetable found wiki page
11:53<zydeco>you can make them stop at a station for a given amount of days or ticks
11:53<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: keen eye, i wondered whether someone would notice
11:53<zydeco>so they won't leave early even if there's nothing to load
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>oh, it's chinese
11:54<zydeco>should I submit this patch? http://i.imgur.com/7DWwa6q.png
11:54<zydeco>or forget everything about it and never mention it again
11:54<@Alberth>frosch123: we were so very much overwhelmed by your wealthy possessions :)
11:54<Thurak>would i have to set timetables for each tram?
11:55<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/allmine2.png <- yay :)
11:55<zydeco>yes, unless they share orders
11:55<zydeco>if the orders are shared, so is the timetable
11:56<Thurak>i have about 100 trams ...
11:56<Thurak>and i was going to make quite a few more
11:56<Thurak>since they have tiny capacity and cheap cost
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: you can combine the cost into one animation, you know :p
11:56<@Alberth>frosch123: a little dent in the bank account :p
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11:57<@planetmaker>zydeco, what's that patch? The brown stuff? Emitted by vehicles?
11:57<zydeco>no, that's the usual realistic diesel smoke
11:58<zydeco>look at the sides the busses drive on
11:58<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: not in the hackish way i did it :p
11:58<frosch123>otoh, may method might be multiplayer compatible
11:58<frosch123>-a
11:59<Thurak>i guess timetables work better with trains as you dont need to set so many
12:01<@planetmaker>you know shared orders and automatic timetable separation, yes/no?
12:02<Thurak>nope, i havent been playing for that long
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12:17<Thurak>nice thing with wait for full is i can just make one, clone it 30 times, then start all of them at once from the depot
12:17<zydeco>if you use control-clic when you clone it, they will have shared orders
12:17<zydeco>so any change in their orders or timetables, will happen on all
12:19<Thurak>when i normally clone stuff they have the same orders
12:20<Thurak>if i tell it to go to london (fill all), all clones will be told to do the same
12:23<zydeco>so then you don't have to set timetables for each
12:23<zydeco>you can just tell them to stop at the station for a number of days, and stop them manually to space them
12:24<__ln__>zydeco: the singular of bus is bus, and the plural is buses.
12:24<zydeco>oops
12:24<zydeco>it will not happen again
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>well it would be awkward if the plural were bussi :p
12:26<zydeco>lol
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12:29<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25830 trunk/src/object_gui.cpp (2013-10-12 16:29:42 UTC)
12:29<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5742] (r25540): In BuildObjectWindow, ensure the object spec matrix is always initialized. (sbr)
12:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25831 trunk/src/newgrf_object.h (2013-10-12 16:30:05 UTC)
12:30<@DorpsGek>-Change: Increase the object class limit from 32 to 255. (sbr)
12:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25832 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-10-12 16:30:22 UTC)
12:30<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Reduce variety of object type test functions.
12:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25833 /trunk (10 files in 3 dirs) (2013-10-12 16:30:42 UTC)
12:30<peter1138>32 was the old drop down list limit :-)
12:30<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Move ObjectType from map array into pool item.
12:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25834 /trunk/src (newgrf.cpp object_type.h) (2013-10-12 16:31:31 UTC)
12:31<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Use NUM_OBJECTS_PER_GRF instead of NUM_OBJECTS to properly distinguish limits per NewGRF and limits of the pool.
12:31<@DorpsGek>-Change: [NewGRF] Lower the limit of object types per NewGRF from 256 to 255 to prevent usage of ID 0xFF in Action3, and thus allowing it to become an extended byte somewhen.
12:32<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25835 /trunk/src (object_cmd.cpp object_type.h) (2013-10-12 16:31:55 UTC)
12:32<@DorpsGek>-Change: Increase the total number of object types from 256 to 64000.
12:32<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25836 /trunk/src (industry_type.h newgrf.cpp) (2013-10-12 16:32:16 UTC)
12:32<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Use NUM_INDUSTRYTYPES_PER_GRF instead of NUM_INDUSTRYTYPES to properly distinguish limits per NewGRF and limits of the pool.
12:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25837 /trunk/src (industry_type.h newgrf.cpp) (2013-10-12 16:32:59 UTC)
12:33<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Use NUM_INDUSTRYTILES_PER_GRF instead of NUM_INDUSTRYTILES to properly distinguish limits per NewGRF and limits of the pool.
12:33<@DorpsGek>-Change: [NewGRF] Lower the limit of industry tile types per NewGRF from 256 to 255 to prevent usage of ID 0xFF in Action3, and thus allowing it to become an extended byte somewhen.
12:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25838 /trunk/src (6 files) (2013-10-12 16:33:19 UTC)
12:33<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Rename HOUSE_MAX to NUM_HOUSES.
12:33<andythenorth>busy day
12:34<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25839 /trunk/src (house.h newgrf.cpp) (2013-10-12 16:34:04 UTC)
12:34<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Use NUM_HOUSES_PER_GRF instead of NUM_HOUSES to properly distinguish limits per NewGRF and limits of the pool.
12:34<@DorpsGek>-Change: [NewGRF] Lower the limit of house types per NewGRF from 256 to 255 to prevent usage of ID 0xFF in Action3, and thus allowing it to become an extended byte somewhen.
12:34<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25840 /trunk/src (airport.h newgrf.cpp) (2013-10-12 16:34:23 UTC)
12:34<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Use NUM_AIRPORTS_PER_GRF instead of NUM_AIRPORTS to properly distinguish limits per NewGRF and limits of the pool.
12:34<SpComb>good things come in batches
12:34<@planetmaker>they sure do
12:35<FLHerne>Oh, finally those NewObject patches got trunked :-)
12:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25841 /trunk/src (airport.h newgrf.cpp) (2013-10-12 16:34:59 UTC)
12:35<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Use NUM_AIRPORTTILES_PER_GRF instead of NUM_AIRPORTTILES to properly distinguish limits per NewGRF and limits of the pool.
12:35<@DorpsGek>-Change: [NewGRF] Lower the limit of airport tile types per NewGRF from 256 to 255 to prevent usage of ID 0xFF in Action3, and thus allowing it to become an extended byte somewhen.
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12:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25842 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2013-10-12 16:35:18 UTC)
12:35<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Rename MAX_STATIONS to NUM_STATIONS_PER_GRF.
12:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25843 trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp (2013-10-12 16:35:32 UTC)
12:35<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Rename MAX_SPECLIST to NUM_STATIONSSPECS_PER_STATION.
12:35<LordAro>how long have you been saving these up frosch123? :)
12:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25844 /trunk (6 files in 3 dirs) (2013-10-12 16:35:50 UTC)
12:35<@DorpsGek>-Change: Increase maximum number of object instances on the map from 64k to about 16M.
12:36<frosch123>LordAro: first two are from sbr, one month old
12:36<frosch123>next 3 i wrote wednesday or so
12:36<frosch123>rest today
12:37<FLHerne>frosch123: I was wondering when those first ones would get in. Crashed me game :-(
12:37<LordAro>nice :)
12:38<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/numstuff/99_debug.diff <- Eddi|zuHause: i am not going to commit that, but you may use it locally
12:38<frosch123>don't use it near the map border though, or it will crash
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>pff :p
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12:40<Eddi|zuHause>needs an if(invalid tile) break;
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>and some more magic for the other map border
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>or, do it properly in the docommand :p
12:41<LordAro>now, i think you should go and give cirdan some love - he's published his patch queue, and as far as i can see, at least the first 80ish are useful without implementing the rest
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12:43<zydeco>btw, I submitted this a while ago http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5756?project=1&pagenum=2
12:43<zydeco>how do patch reviews work?
12:44<@planetmaker>you do that quite alright. You post in the bug tracker and remind us :D
12:44<zydeco>ah, I hadn't reminded anyone :P
12:45<@planetmaker>irc is the proper medium for review really
12:45<frosch123>zydeco: any reason you use quarters instead of months?
12:45<zydeco>it's what the update packet uses
12:45<frosch123>ok
12:45<frosch123>reason enough
12:47<zydeco>I just copied the lines from ServerNetworkAdminSocketHandler::SendCompanyUpdate
12:48<@planetmaker>I wonder how clients react which implement the old packet format
12:48<frosch123>LordAro: well, then separate those you think are useful
12:48<Thurak>right, its not 1752... starting to wish i didnt have to wait 130 years till the next unlock
12:48<Thurak>its now*
12:49<@planetmaker>Thurak, cheat the date
12:49<zydeco>well, if the packet has more data than they expect, they should ignore it
12:49<Thurak>ah guess i could
12:50<@planetmaker>Taede, http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5756/getfile/9376/admin_company_info.patch <-- would that work?
12:50<zydeco>the packet already has its full size, so it won't get mixed up with the next
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12:53<dihedral>hello Zuu
12:53<dihedral>i can do with your help :-)
12:54<@planetmaker>dihedral, you also know: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5756/getfile/9376/admin_company_info.patch <-- would that be just fine with library and client??
12:55<dihedral>planetmaker, with an exception for the line only containing whitespaces :-P
12:56<dihedral>i would like to compare it to the code already being used
12:56<@planetmaker>tehehe :-)
12:58<dihedral>yes, it's fine
12:58-!-DarkAce-Z is now known as DarkAceZ
12:58<dihedral>seeing as we did say we would not change the protocol, only append to the end of packets
12:58<@planetmaker>^ ok, that's what I was worried about
12:59<zydeco>yay
13:00<Thurak>well the bright side of starting in 1700 is by the time i get my first trains ill have massive citys for t hem
13:00<dihedral>i do not know why my json code is not being accepted, when i am using the example from zuu
13:01<dihedral>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/gs-server/repository/entry/readme.txt
13:01<zydeco>ooh that looks useful
13:03<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r25845 trunk/src/network/network_admin.cpp (2013-10-12 17:03:15 UTC)
13:03<@DorpsGek>-Add [FS#5756]: [Admin] Send info on bankruptcy quarters also in ADMIN_PACKET_SERVER_COMPANY_INFO (zydeco)
13:03<dihedral>Thank you zydeco
13:03<dihedral>and thank you pm
13:04<@planetmaker>thank you indeed
13:04<@planetmaker>both of you :-)
13:04<dihedral>where is zuu when you need him :-(
13:05<dihedral>does anybody here have experience with the adminport / gamscript json communication?
13:05<frosch123>you
13:06<@planetmaker>:D
13:06<zydeco>I was writing and admin tool, but didn't implement any of the json stuff because I didn't understand it
13:06<@planetmaker>Taede, might as well. And some others who hide :D
13:06<zydeco>although now that I've seen that project, I'll look into it
13:07<dihedral>zydeco, you like java?
13:07<zydeco>no, but I use it sometimes
13:08<dihedral>hmmmpf
13:09<dihedral>i would not mind a helping hand with my bot :-P
13:11<zydeco>what is it?
13:11<dihedral>grapes
13:11<dihedral>grapes.openttdcoop.org
13:12<zydeco>oh, I've seen that before
13:12<dihedral>it is modular, works with plugins as jar files
13:12<LordAro>frosch123: i think i will :)
13:13<LordAro>as far as i can tell, the first 241-ish patches are entirely unrelated to the map array changes
13:13<LordAro>and some of them can be merged
13:13<LordAro>what would be your preferred medium for a huge list of patches?
13:14<LordAro>archived list?
13:14<LordAro>archived folder, rather
13:14<@planetmaker>easiest is when patches can be reviewed directly using a browser, thus not archived
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13:14<@planetmaker>maybe additionally for checking compilation / building / testing
13:15<@Alberth>I am sure someone can unpack them at a browsable location :)
13:15<@planetmaker>so maybe simply a repo with the patches added on top of eachother. Or a queue like http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/grid/
13:16<@planetmaker>well, yes :-)
13:16<@planetmaker>but he asked for "preferred" :D
13:17<zydeco>isn't the correct spelling "extension", not "extention"?
13:19<dihedral>uh :-D
13:19<dihedral>no wonder i always needed the ide to help me out :-D
13:19<zydeco>heh
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>i find evidence of both spellings in dictionaries
13:20<@planetmaker>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/pm-openttd <-- LordAro or like that ;-)
13:20<@planetmaker>same thing in green
13:20<dihedral>Xaroth, did you not do some json stuff?
13:23<LordAro>planetmaker: while it won't take too long, i think i'll get a functional patch queue first :)
13:23<@planetmaker>well, the latter is also a patch queue ;-)
13:24<LordAro>:p
13:24<zydeco>I'll take a look at grapes in the future
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13:27<Thurak>right, i have 2 citys at 25k people each, they are close enough to each other they are starting to connect, if i set a rail station in the middle would it get passengers from both
13:29<andythenorth>somewht
13:29<andythenorth>somewhat *
13:29<andythenorth>yes
13:29<Thurak>pitty i wont have rails for another 100 years tho, by which time demolishing space will make them very mad
13:29<andythenorth>it gets whatever is in the catchment
13:29<andythenorth>you can station walk for bigger catchments
13:29<Xaroth|Work>put down land claims?
13:29<Thurak>land claims?
13:29<@planetmaker>buy land
13:29<@planetmaker>"u"
13:30<dihedral>Xaroth|Work, do you have a little bit of experience regarding the json stuff?
13:30<@planetmaker>landscaping toolbar -> buy lands
13:30<Xaroth|Work>dihedral: define "json stuff" ?
13:30<dihedral>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2713/
13:30<dihedral>admin port to game script
13:30<dihedral>aparently 'data' is empty
13:31<dihedral>and i am using the examples Zuu provides in his readme.txt
13:31<Xaroth|Work>that doesn't look like json
13:31<dihedral>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=68828
13:31<Xaroth|Work>'{action:ping,number:5}' should be '{"action":"ping","number":5}'
13:32<@planetmaker>oh... that sounds familiar from the stuff I use to talk to jenkins :D
13:32<Xaroth|Work>and you can always try it with libottdadmin2 , it should work
13:32<Xaroth|Work>as long as your json is properly formatted
13:32<dihedral>i'll try that
13:33<Thurak>do you have to buy land 1 tile at a time
13:33<dihedral>thank you Xaroth|Work :-)
13:33<Thurak>i cant seem to drag...
13:35<Thurak>derp.. thats why, wrong tool
13:35<@planetmaker>yes, you can only buy it one by one
13:36<Thurak>ok, i still had the wrong tool tho :P
13:41<zydeco>I should release my ruby admin library too
13:41<zydeco>lol
13:41<Thurak>can airports be rotated
13:43<@planetmaker>no. yes, if you use the NewGRF OpenGFX+Airports
13:43<@planetmaker>Or any other airport NewGRF which supports it. Which afaik doesn't exist ;-)
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13:44<Thurak>ok
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25846 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-10-12 17:45:37 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 4 changes by Supercheese
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 31 changes by Evropi
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 3 changes by Terkhen
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14:05<frosch123>LordAro: no, don't do the whole queue
14:05<frosch123>make batches of 10 or so
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14:05<LordAro>?
14:05<frosch123>that saves you from work, in case noone is interested in the result
14:05<frosch123>and it also allows to give feedback in the middle, and change the process
14:06<frosch123>if you make a queue of 500 patches, and then dump them for review, you have already lost
14:06<frosch123>what if at patch 10 something shall be changed?
14:06<frosch123>do small steps, that helps everyone
14:07<@planetmaker>we're not linux kernel hackers :D
14:07<LordAro>well, i only (initially, i guess :p) will touch the first 240-ish patches in his queue
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14:08<@planetmaker>does he have a repo?
14:08<LordAro>but yes, i shall try to do something like that
14:08<@planetmaker>or is it all the zip'ed patch queues?
14:08<LordAro>i have a feeling he does, but i can't find it linked anywhere
14:09<@planetmaker>ok, then it's not me :-)
14:09<LordAro>i do seem to have a memory of exploring his git repo in a browser, but that could've been michi-cc's :p
14:17<Zuu>dihedral: Hello, let me read back what you said :-)
14:18<Snail>hi guys, has anyone had the chance to look into this yet? http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5775?project=1
14:19<frosch123>nopd
14:19<frosch123>*nope
14:19<Zuu>dihedral: The JSON code in my readme.txt is actually not valid JSON. It use the Squirrel object syntax rather than correct JSON.
14:20<@planetmaker>that's evil, Zuu ;-)
14:21<Zuu>I sort of assumed that you would use a JSON builder rather than writing the json string by hand.
14:22<Zuu>dihedral: If you like, I can send you my test client for Joan
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14:31<Snail>ok, that's something that affects my set as well
14:31<frosch123>current response time on fs is around 2 months or so
14:31<Snail>oh, ok
14:31<frosch123>there are lke 68 tasks or so
14:32<frosch123>plus patches
14:34<LordAro>damn, i don't have anywhere to store these patches
14:35<LordAro>at least, in an easily viewable form
14:35<LordAro>recommended places, anyone?
14:35<frosch123>disk full or what? :p
14:35<Zuu>I have now updated the readme of ServerGS to use correct JSON that validates OK.
14:36<LordAro>online place* :p
14:36<LordAro>although, my website hosting thing seems to be complaining of a full disk, despite me only using ~30MB :L
14:36<@Alberth>too many files? :)
14:36<LordAro>nope, just removed some stuff, with the same result :L
14:37<LordAro>any other places you can recommend? :L
14:37<frosch123>usually we just spam the devzone
14:37<@Alberth>if you make it a tgz or so, I can store it for you :)
14:38<oskari89>LordAro: Put it on DevZone :)
14:38<LordAro>how? (without a project)
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14:39<LordAro>all i need is a folder, nothing else
14:40<@planetmaker>LordAro, you got an ssh key?
14:41<LordAro>umm
14:43<LordAro>yes
14:43<@planetmaker>or... do you use dropbox? that could provide you with what you need
14:43<LordAro>i do now :)
14:45<LordAro>wait, i can use dropbox on linux? maybe i will try that
14:46<@planetmaker>works very well for me
14:46<Zuu>zydeco: I started to collect admin port libraries/utilities here: https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/Server_admin_port
14:47<zydeco>oh nice, I'l polish it a bit and put it somewhere eventually
14:47<Zuu>Dropbox also has a browser interface.
14:47<zydeco>I'll*
14:47<@planetmaker>dropbox needs on linux no browser interface. It integrates well with file browser
14:48<@planetmaker>at least on my debian7
14:49<andythenorth>now what?
14:49<andythenorth>more work?
14:49*andythenorth thinks yes
14:49<andythenorth>unless anybody wants to talk ponies :P
14:53<LordAro>planetmaker, frosch123, others: right, with that in mind, see this link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dmj7ld3m2s6wryy/net05D2XY4
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15:09<LordAro>so, 2 graphics related restarts later, did anyone comment on my link?
15:09<@planetmaker>oi, ty, LordAro
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15:31<@planetmaker>LordAro, I'd aggregate 001 with possibly more doxygen. I'm not exactly sure about how 003 compares to 005... they go basically different direction imho; I'd skip 3
15:32<LordAro>001 was intended to be extended, should more doxygen only stuff be 'found'
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15:40<bon>hi
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16:04<djura-san>howdy fellas
16:05<@planetmaker>ho
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16:05<bon>hi djura-san and planetmaker
16:06<Taede>good evening
16:07<frosch123>hmm, how did the old station gui look like?
16:07<frosch123>it was a dropdown for the class, and then a list for the specs in the class, right?
16:09<@planetmaker>yes, scroll list right of class drop-down
16:09<@planetmaker>iirc...
16:09<andythenorth>all I remember is the new one :)
16:09<andythenorth>btw, we should fix the company colour gui
16:09<frosch123>hmm, i need some advice
16:09<frosch123>i think the category system for stations and objects is crap
16:09<andythenorth>it's (a) bonkers (b) I can never use it © my toddler can never use it
16:09<andythenorth>+1
16:09<frosch123>so i want to add a text filter to it
16:09<andythenorth>but why?
16:10<andythenorth>why crap?
16:10<frosch123>but only filtering and still keeping the classes is weird
16:10<@planetmaker>authors don't properly use it ;-)
16:10<frosch123>so, in wonder whether to show all filter results on a single page, ignoreing the class
16:10<@planetmaker>though classes work rather well with stations
16:10<frosch123>or whether to add an "all classes" item to the top of the list
16:11<frosch123>or whether to allow multi-select with ctrl and a "select all" button
16:11<@planetmaker>yes
16:11<frosch123>basically i would like to type "steel" in the box, and then pick from the pictures
16:11<andythenorth>hmm
16:11<andythenorth>what would feed the filter results?
16:11<frosch123>all those "chips tiles" and "dwe tiles" are just nonsense
16:11<andythenorth>what's the schema?
16:11<frosch123>i do not care what grf author is proud of them
16:11<@planetmaker>frosch123, it makes sense to ctrl-select several classes
16:12<andythenorth>I am +1 that it's nonsense :)
16:12<frosch123>they are pointless
16:12<andythenorth>I hate that crap
16:12<andythenorth>I only have two categories :P
16:12<@planetmaker>with buttons for 'all' and 'none' :-)
16:12<frosch123>i also wondered about adding a "<<" button, to shift the list out of the window, and never use it
16:13<frosch123>but i am not sure what to put in the remaining space
16:13<frosch123>it would kind of end up empty
16:13<frosch123>which is also pointless :p
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16:57<djura-san>10y more and i will get magliev. i wonder what is it
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17:11<Taede>does rcon save save the game in the working directory (as shown by pwd) or in the save/ directory?
17:12<Taede>in the first case, is there a way to tell it to save in the save/ directory without having knowledge of the directory structure?
17:12<frosch123>try it?
17:18<djura-san>oh, this magliev looks nice.
17:19<djura-san>but they are not reliable at all. only 55° :\
17:19<djura-san>*55%
17:20<Taede>ooh, handy, rcon save ignores pwd
17:20<@planetmaker>yes. But uses one, if you use a filename different from 'game.sav'
17:20<@planetmaker>i.e. with parameter you need the pwd
17:21<Taede>but its relative to save/
17:21<@planetmaker>or so I believe from our usage of ap+
17:21<Taede>eg autosave/blub will always save in the autosave directory
17:21<@planetmaker>oh... pwd. not rcon password
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17:37<djura-san>what is the purpose of HQ? Will it grow larger or will it look like a farm forever?
17:37<Taede>it grows
17:37<Taede>mainly its eyecandy
17:37<Supercheese>it also generates a few passengers, IIRC
17:38<Supercheese>and maybe also accepts passengers
17:38<Taede>but it can be used to get a small town to accept passengers/mail
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17:39<djura-san>i see. so it is a good thing to put it somewhere near the rail (since i only use 2 tracks across whole map)
17:39<djura-san>?
17:40<Taede>put it anywhere it will look prety, unless you have need of it in a small town
17:40<frosch123>hmm, most of the times ottd on yt is weird
17:40<Taede>i would personally not put it too near rails, as it may be in the way if/when you expand said railway
17:40<frosch123>ottd is so complicated to play :p
17:41<frosch123>i have no idea how i ever learned it
17:41<djura-san>i have 2 towns. One is pretty small (for >100y it got about 300 new citizens) and other one is biger and it grew from 1200 to 5200
17:42<djura-san>so i'm stuck here. I wanted to build 2 banks too but the prices are skyrocketing (10mil € per bank)
17:42<Supercheese>welcome to inflation
17:43<frosch123>yeah, why do banks cost money?
17:43<frosch123>aren't they about getting money from other people?
17:43<Taede>you have to spend money to earn money
17:43<bon>blame VISA ;)
17:44<djura-san>:)
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18:01<frosch123>night
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18:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25847 trunk/src/landscape.cpp (2013-10-12 22:01:21 UTC)
18:01<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Comment for GetFoundationSlope was wrong (cirdan, LordAro)
18:03<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25848 /trunk/src (4 files) (2013-10-12 22:03:13 UTC)
18:03<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Refactor check for if a tile is not an edge tile to new IsInnerTile method (cirdan, LordAro)
18:03<Supercheese>commit storm today, whew
18:04<LordAro>few more incoming ;)
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18:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25849 /trunk/src (11 files in 2 dirs) (2013-10-12 22:07:58 UTC)
18:08<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Introduce IsTileFlat to not compute full slope information for situations when we only want to know if a tile is flat or not (cirdan, LordAro)
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18:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25850 trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp (2013-10-12 22:17:11 UTC)
18:17<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Merge IsBadFarmFieldTile and IsValidFarmFieldTile into IsSuitableForFarmField (cirdan, LordAro)
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18:18<GermanOak>Hi
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18:19<LordAro>bye
18:21<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25851 trunk/src/clear_cmd.cpp (2013-10-12 22:21:21 UTC)
18:21<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Avoid recalculations in DrawClearLandFence (cirdan, LordAro)
18:23<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25852 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-10-12 22:23:43 UTC)
18:23<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Merge GetFenceXX/SetFenceXX into one common GetFonce/SetFence for all directions that take an extra direction parameter (cirdan, LordAro)
18:24<LordAro>GetFonce :p
18:24<Zuu>Sorry for the typo
18:24<Zuu>:-)
18:28<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25853 trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp (2013-10-12 22:28:38 UTC)
18:28<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Simplify SetupFarmFieldFence by replacing the Axis and north parameter with a direction parameter and taking adventage of the new unified SetFence function (cirdan, LordAro)
18:36<Wolf01>'night
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18:45<pasky>Hi! My Openttd (1.3.2) does not offer the "Replace vehicles" action. Any idea where is it gone or how to enable it?
18:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r25854 /trunk/src (rail_gui.cpp road_gui.cpp) (2013-10-12 22:45:19 UTC)
18:45<@DorpsGek>-Change: Display the cost to upgrade a bridge at the end of bridge that was clicked and not the other end, which could be outside of the screen in some cases (cirdan, LordAro)
18:52<Zuu>pasky: Open list of all (for example) trains, in the bottom of the list click on the "v" button (arrow) which pulls down a list where you find the option to replace vehicles.
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 13 00:00:00 2013