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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-10-15

---Logopened Tue Oct 15 00:00:02 2013
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02:44<dihedral>good morning
02:45<Supercheese>good midnight
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03:50<Taede>moin
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04:07<@planetmaker>moin
04:15<V453000>heyo
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08:24<DanMacK>Hey all
08:26<scshunt>hi
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08:58<@Belugas>hello
08:59<V453000>moo
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11:01<DanMacK>o/
11:05<@planetmaker>\o
11:06*planetmaker ponders introducing a new object property: amount placed upon map generation on a 256^2 map
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13:10-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
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13:32<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25867 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-10-15 17:32:31 UTC)
13:32<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5764]: Shift dates on link graphs when using scenario editor date tool.
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13:36<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
13:36<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 21 hours, 40 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <andythenorth> found it
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13:46-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
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13:51<Wolf01>evenink
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13:53<@Alberth>hihi
13:54<frosch123>moin
13:57<@planetmaker>moin
14:00<zydeco>greetings
14:08*Belugas wants an EBow
14:09<@Belugas>hem... oops...
14:09<@Belugas>sorry
14:09<peter1138>:-)
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14:09<frosch123>an e-bow?
14:09<frosch123>can you should people on the internet with that?
14:09<peter1138>Should them, yes.
14:10<@Belugas>i should shout some sholders
14:10<frosch123>s/uld/ot/ :s
14:10<@Belugas>shoot
14:10<@Belugas>shit!
14:10<frosch123>hard word
14:18<frosch123>i know a topic V could derail :)
14:21<@Belugas>:)
14:23<V453000>I am derailed alllll the time
14:23<@Belugas>get on your tracks!
14:23*Belugas does not say what type of tracks...
14:23<@Belugas>hohoh
14:24<V453000>:)
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14:49*Supercheese would use a newobject property to place objects on map randomly, seagulls by default
14:49<Supercheese>might also be nice to have some sort of callback or method to tell them to be placed near things like industries or towns
14:50<Supercheese>for a pony wish :)
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14:51*Belugas wonders... seeing a seagull in gme would mean it's a freaking big whale of a bird!
14:51<andythenorth>self-building new objects? o_O
14:51<Supercheese>at map gen, planetmaker mentioned it earlier
14:51<andythenorth>fuck the GS route, it's an inadequate way to do it
14:52<Supercheese>as a pondering
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14:52<andythenorth>nah, needs to be on the monthly cb
14:52<andythenorth>the / a
14:52<Pinkbeast>Seagulls would be a nice ambient noise
14:52<Supercheese>Been there; done that
14:52<Supercheese>;)
14:52<Pinkbeast>... but I guess the fishing harbour could just make the noise directly and now you can tell me it already does.
14:53<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=56780&start=60#p1063573
14:53<Supercheese>also: http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/index.php?do=list&cid=7
14:54<andythenorth>grfcrawler must die :x
14:57<frosch123>Supercheese: you have to decide for generation order, either industries or objects first :)
14:57<frosch123>towns are definitely first though
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15:03<@planetmaker>objects are not game crucial. last. As now
15:05-!-au [~au@4.59.10.31.omegatech.cz] has joined #openttd
15:05<au>hi, how to load a script ? :)
15:05<@planetmaker>I have a rather quick hack... http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/index.php?source=place_objects/place_objects.diff - but not suitable yet :-)
15:06<andythenorth>is there a reason (I haven't thought of) that it has to be map-gen time, and not in the gameplay loop somewhere?
15:06<@planetmaker>au, from main menu: script / ai settings. Then generate a new map
15:06<au>planetmaker: I mean in a console. exec script.scr makes ERROR: script file not found
15:06<@planetmaker>andythenorth, there's no reason. But ... map generation makes sense, no?
15:07<au>planetmaker: even though pwd shows the directory is the right one and the file is present
15:08<andythenorth>planetmaker: couple of thoughts (1) landscape evolving over time is interesting (2) industries open (and close)
15:08<andythenorth>I missed some of the discussion, but I assume that objects would be able to try and locate near [something] ?
15:10<@planetmaker>andythenorth, objects have the usual capabilities. Up to the newgrf author
15:10*andythenorth should read the spec :P
15:10<@planetmaker>au, did you try w/o file extension?
15:12<au>planetmaker: yes, and funny to say ls doesn't show anything too :O
15:12*andythenorth is interested in the age-old pony "extra stuff around FIRS industries"
15:13<andythenorth>objects seems like the cleanest solution to that
15:13<andythenorth>and giving industries the capability to build objects seems a bit unclean
15:13<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I think that should rather be an extension of the field idea :)
15:14<andythenorth>is the field idea resurrected?
15:14<andythenorth>last I knew, it was considered very dead
15:14<@planetmaker>well, no. But industries spawning objects, or objects checking for industry XY is... strange imho
15:14<andythenorth>practical though...
15:15<@planetmaker>and imho it wasn't exactly shot dead. Rather died due to insufficient food supply
15:15<andythenorth>frosch123 thoughts? o_O
15:16<frosch123>i think industries spawning objects would be a cool thing
15:16<frosch123>mostly for extracting industries
15:16<frosch123>destroying the nature around them
15:17<frosch123>and leaving pits behind
15:18<@planetmaker>hm. seen that way... maybe a good idea :-)
15:18<andythenorth>can objects self-destroy? o_O
15:18<frosch123>it's different from traditional fields though
15:18*andythenorth assumes not
15:19<@planetmaker>not necessarily much different
15:19<@planetmaker>depends on the object
15:19<frosch123>most weird is how players clear those things
15:19<frosch123>per tile or as whole
15:20<andythenorth>as a whole I guess
15:20<frosch123>hmm, one could also allow spawning objects on destruction
15:20<frosch123>like leaving a crater behind :p
15:20<frosch123>unremoveable :p
15:20<@planetmaker>right. you got me convinced :-)
15:21<frosch123>anyway, might as well grow out of hand :p
15:21<andythenorth>so how does it work? Specific cb? Or modify existing cbs to also allow spawning an object as part of result? o_O
15:21<frosch123>if half of the map is covered with busted nuclear plants after 500 game years
15:21<frosch123>i think there is a wiki page with a draft about it
15:21<andythenorth>somewhere on froschwiki :P
15:22<au>why does loading files from console doesn't work? :( is it a bug?
15:22<frosch123>i think it's on the post-grf-v8-new-cb-results page
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15:22<@planetmaker>au, might be that they must be in the scripts dir
15:23<@planetmaker>is yours there and has the extension scr?
15:23<au>planetmaker: which is a script dir?
15:23<@planetmaker>eh. The one where the example / default scripts are placed in?
15:23<@planetmaker>relative to your binary
15:25<au>I run a binary from a compiled version
15:26<@planetmaker>well. Without compilation there's no binary.
15:26<au>anyway, when I do ls in that directory, it shows it's empty :O
15:27<au>it shows directories only, not files
15:27<@planetmaker>?
15:28<@planetmaker>you know, currently I can only speculate as of your setup. Not a good thing. Nothing I fancy
15:29<au>I made no setup changes at all
15:30<frosch123>oh, there are pcs with preinstalled ottd?
15:30<@planetmaker>... good. Still my crystal ball fails to show what your setup looks like
15:30<au>you mean openttd.cfg?
15:31<@Alberth>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/readme.txt#L256 and section 4.2 would be useful too
15:31<@planetmaker>OpenTTD version. OS version. place of config file. place of binary (did you use installer or downloaded it?)
15:32<@planetmaker>command you use to call openttd. command you tried in order to have your script executed
15:32<au>1.3.2 linux, I compiled it, bin is /home/au/tmp/original/bin/openttd
15:32<au>config is ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg
15:33<au>command to run openttd: just ./openttd ;)
15:34<@planetmaker>so your script is in ~/tmp/original/bin/script ?
15:34<au>and trying to execute the script via exec in console
15:34<@planetmaker>how exactly?
15:35<au>my script is ~/tmp/original/bin/script/aaa.scr
15:36<au>my script is ~/tmp/np2/original/bin/script/aaa.scr to be correct
15:36-!-DanMacK [~d83be456@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:36<au>I did cd to the ~/tmp/np2/original/bin/script directory
15:36<au>pwd to confirm it's the right one
15:37<au>exec aaa.scr
15:37<au>ERROR: script not found
15:37<au>actually script file not found
15:38<@planetmaker>so... did you try to place it in ~/tmp/original/bin/script/aaa.scr ?
15:38<au>when I do ls command it shows only "0)..(Parent dictionary)" even though there is 12 files
15:38<au>planetmaker: it is exactly there
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15:41<DanMacK>grrr
15:43<@planetmaker>I've no clue with what you mean that it's there and not there
15:43<au>look: http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/4752/rbyi.png
15:45<@planetmaker>did you simply try "exec aaa"?
15:46<au>yes, it's the same
15:46<au>http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3190/sw2c.png - here you see that the file is really there in that dictionary
15:48<au>http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6400/pso.png again.. ls shows no files even though there are some.. so a bug????
15:52<@planetmaker>as said: try to place the file in the dir scripts are meant to be. Not something else which you need to cd into
15:52<@planetmaker>But honestly, I don't know. I guess I hardly ever use a script except a slight default one on player join
15:52<@planetmaker>which needs no manual execution
15:54<au>the bad thing is these things are very poorly documented
15:55<@planetmaker>ask in the forums
15:55<@planetmaker>maybe someone uses them and knows
15:55<au>when I run a new instance, the first pwd is ~/.openttd/save so is this one the deffault dictionary?
15:55<frosch123>i think these scripts are unchanged since version 0.4
15:56<frosch123>so, no active developer knows about them :)
15:56<@planetmaker>yeah :-P
15:56<au>well I just wanna find out how to let ai play instead of me in a multiplayer.. lol.. thought this was thrugh these scripts
15:57<@planetmaker>well. That is something which we specifically do NOT support
15:57<@planetmaker>scripts acting in a human company in multiplayer
15:58<Sturmi>stupid ai or stupid human player... where is the difference? :D
15:58<@planetmaker>AIs don't feel ashamed to be stupid
15:58<@planetmaker>nor mind being told so :-P
15:58<Sturmi>good point :D
15:59<au>can't I program AI to be really good? :O
15:59<@planetmaker>sure you can
15:59<au>so I just wanna test it against real players
15:59<@planetmaker>but most AIs can be beaten economically
16:00<@planetmaker>au, yes... but you don't want those scripts for that
16:00<@planetmaker>start a multiplayer server and start an AI there
16:00<@planetmaker>an AI player cann noever be run via those kind of scripts you try to run there
16:00<au>planetmaker: I wanted to do this on an already existing server
16:00<@planetmaker>those scripts have no such capability
16:00<@planetmaker>yes... start_ai
16:00<@Alberth>it's much more productive to publish the AI and let people play against it in single player, I think
16:01<@planetmaker>oh, as admin you can run them on a server just fine, too
16:01<@planetmaker>though... I don't know anyone doing that
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16:02<au>is it possible to let ai do city building and huge railline nets? if so, it should deffinitly be better than human players
16:03<@planetmaker>what's "city building"?
16:03<@planetmaker>AIs can (or should be able) to do what a human player can do. Not more. Not less
16:03<@planetmaker>No cheating.
16:03<au>let a city grow on purpose..
16:04<@planetmaker>sure, why not.
16:04<@planetmaker>it's up to you what you tell the AI to do
16:05<@planetmaker>There's a couple of different one. with different focus...
16:06<@planetmaker>probably you can make a very decent one, if you do not re-invent the wheel everywhere, but if you build on what others have invented before. And improve that
16:06<au>just simulate the behaviour of human players would be enough, I think
16:07<au>of the best human players, of course
16:07<Supercheese>how do you quantify "best"?
16:07<@planetmaker>:-) the usual question
16:07<@planetmaker>a very important one
16:08<au>there's a 15 bilion server on btpro.. I wanna write AI that would beat the best human player so far
16:08<au>that should be possible if the AI builds fast
16:10<@planetmaker>difficulty increases for AIs if playing against humans. Competition can be strong :-)
16:11<au>that's why I wanna let it play instead of a user :P
16:11<@planetmaker>yes, on your own server: well feasible
16:11<@planetmaker>on others: it's not
16:11<@planetmaker>or only with rcon rights
16:11<au>but why not on others? .. not for cheating, only for experimentation
16:12<@planetmaker>where's the difference?
16:12<@planetmaker>it's cheating if I play against you + your script
16:12<au>if you play against the script and you know it, is it cheating?
16:12<@planetmaker>doing that on another server, no-one would know it.
16:13<au>they would know if I told them ;)
16:13<@planetmaker>iff. Sorry.
16:14<Sturmi>make your own server and invite players to compete against your ai.
16:14<@planetmaker>I'd perma-ban a person who tried on my servers
16:14<Sturmi>+1
16:14<au>lol
16:15<@planetmaker>scripts in human companies are general a fun killer. There'd be nothing to stop people using them for whatever. Then the people with the better script have an advantage. That's not fair. However you make it
16:16<@planetmaker>so no scripts in human companies
16:17<@planetmaker>that was discussed in great length when the current AI framework was implemented
16:18<au>I guess this is like saying that all drivers in Formula 1 should have the same cars so that richer teams are not in advantage ;)
16:18<Sturmi>cant compare it like this
16:19<@planetmaker>as said: you're free to run an AI on your server or servers where you have rcon. In their own company
16:19<@planetmaker>which everyone will be able to see as AI company
16:20<@planetmaker>it's not that it's unfair or anything. It's fair competition
16:20<au>I'd just make a competition where any scripts whatsoever are allowed ;)
16:20<@planetmaker>boring
16:20<@planetmaker>make a competition AI vs AIs.
16:21<@planetmaker>there's also various such threads in our forums
16:21<@planetmaker>they can be quite interesting
16:21<au>no it's not boring, building lots and lots of lines manually is boring
16:21<Sturmi>reminds me of the movie "war games" :D
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16:22<@planetmaker>so, play the AI game. Publish your AI. Make others play with it. You'll then get feedback on how it performs
16:22<au>ok we'll see, give me few months ;)
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16:23<au>gn
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17:01<Eddi|zuHause>oh, kamnet has found the magic of animated gifs
17:03<andythenorth>:P
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17:24<bon>hi
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17:43<Zuu>au: Welcome to AI development, there is quite a bit written on the subjcet on the wiki: http://wiki.openttd.org/AI:Main_Page ;-)
17:47<Wolf01>'night all
17:47<Xaroth|Work>nn
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17:48<bon>hi zuu and xaroth
17:48<Zuu>hi bon
17:49<bon>how doing?
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>"Hans Riegel, founder of Haribo died aged 90"
17:51<Zuu>good night
17:51<bon>bye zuu
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18:08<frosch123>night
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19:01<@planetmaker>so... object placement on map creation? :D
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19:06<@planetmaker>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/pm-openttd for those who want to test: http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/index.php?folder=place_objects/
19:10<Supercheese>ah, interesting
19:13<Supercheese>Just randomly places them, no way to tell objects to be near things?
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19:13<Riaku>ok, probably a stupid newbie question, but how cna you install mods on a dedicated server? been fooling around with this for a few days, and any mention of manual install tells me to use a gui... not so manual
19:14<@planetmaker>Supercheese, the normal placement callback is used. So the usual placement rules apply
19:14<@planetmaker>thus make it what it should be. Your task :-P
19:15<@planetmaker>Riaku, rcon content is your friend
19:15<@planetmaker>Riaku, did in a few days not cross your mind to have a look at the wiki? https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/Console_Commands
19:16<Riaku>yup, i discovered the content command
19:16<Riaku>ended up installing everything :/
19:16<@planetmaker>could be worse
19:16<Riaku>oh im nto worried about that.
19:16<@planetmaker>and is easiest
19:16<Riaku>not*
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19:17<Riaku>> content download all
19:17<Riaku>> content select all
19:17<Supercheese_>Internet asploded
19:17<Riaku>that's about as far as i get
19:18<@planetmaker>Supercheese, the normal placement callback is used. So the usual placement rules apply. You define via NewGRF where things can be placed (if you should have missed the comment)
19:18<@planetmaker>Riaku, single downloads work by using content select ID. And content state is helpful to define which
19:18<@planetmaker>and before that a content update
19:19<@planetmaker>but really, on a dedi server... just content update; content select all; content download. easy. simple
19:19<Supercheese_>Object var 44 (owner) should allow me to distinguish between a player placing an object vs. the map gen placing the object, right?
19:19<@planetmaker>unless bandwidth is a problem
19:19<Riaku>i get the downloads, but enabling an actual mod, i am lost with, i've attempted editing "a" config file, (apparently on debian, running a server as root won't generate a config file in the root directory, not sure where it pulls things from
19:20<@planetmaker>Supercheese, yes
19:20<Riaku>so i've been directing it with ./openttd -D -c openttd.cfg
19:20<Supercheese_>Righto, think I know what to do
19:20<@planetmaker>oh, don't run openttd as root. Or anything :-)
19:20<Riaku>i get that's a bad idea... but damn >.> no config
19:20<@planetmaker>Supercheese, but not yet in trunk, so... :-)
19:21<@planetmaker>Riaku, ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg is only generated when you exit openttd
19:21<Riaku>exited it many times :p
19:21<@planetmaker>root... might create it next to the binary. which might be bad
19:22<@planetmaker>what does 'locate openttd.cfg' tell you?
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19:22*Riaku facepalms
19:22<Riaku>ls -a
19:23<Riaku>actually.. view hidden lol
19:23<Riaku>.openttd, didn't realise it was hidden
19:23<@planetmaker>anyway... do yourself the favour, create a non-root user. And use that
19:23<@planetmaker>configuring games on a dedicated server... yes, edit openttd.cfg. But much easier to upload a savegame and start that
19:23<Riaku>yeah. i know, im just lazy, set this up for a few friends
19:24<@planetmaker>a lazyness you might pay a very high price for...
19:24<@planetmaker>setting up a user is cheap and quick
19:24<Riaku>yup :3
19:24<Riaku>debian's adduser :p
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19:25<@planetmaker>useradd -d -D -m --passwordPASSWORD
19:25<@planetmaker>done
19:26<@planetmaker>maybe also --shell/bin/bash
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20:01<Supercheese>Hmm, in the patch posted I'm seeing complaints that 'spec' is not a defined variable
20:01<Supercheese>spec->generate_amount = buf->ReadByte();
20:01<Supercheese>is the first part of that necessary?
20:04<Supercheese>won't compile as-is
20:04<@planetmaker>yes. But I exported the patch funkily. try to re-download slightly updated version
20:04<Supercheese>.diff looks different, I'll try that
20:09<Supercheese>seems to be compiling now
20:09<Supercheese>Ah, that line was placed in the wrong locations it seems
20:09<Supercheese>location*
20:09<@planetmaker>bed here now, though. Have fun :-)
20:09<Supercheese>Will do, vale
20:10<@planetmaker>if you want to toy, NML and grfcodec patches are in that dir as well... but you'll have noticed
20:10<@planetmaker>though I'm not 100% sure about grfcodec
20:15<Supercheese>yeah, saw those
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20:37<Supercheese>Hmm, never compiled NML before
20:38<Supercheese>I'll just hex my grfs
20:40<Supercheese>or hmm
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20:43<Supercheese>Might have to learn how to compile NML
20:43<Supercheese>Python, it seems
20:44<Supercheese>:S
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21:18<Supercheese>Now I remember why I've never bothered with Python, it won't install properly
21:24<Eddi|zuHause>what can you possibly do wrong?
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21:44<Supercheese>I think things may not like the 64-bit version of Python
21:44<Supercheese>PIL complains it cannot find a Python installation
21:46<Supercheese>Yeah, that was it
21:46<Supercheese>it only "likes" 32-bit installs
21:53<Eddi|zuHause>no idea how that works here
22:03<Supercheese>ImportError: No module named setuptools
22:05<Supercheese>additional dependency not mentioned in the readme?
22:14<Eddi|zuHause>no idea if that is normally included in python
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22:14<Eddi|zuHause>but it should only be needed if you want to install stuff
22:26<Riaku>setuptools isn't normally included in python :p
22:26<Supercheese>how do I build the executable?
22:26<Riaku>it's used by a good number of programs/scripts though
22:27<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it's the sort of thing you just have...
22:29<Supercheese>after running setup.py install, I don't see any .exe
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---Logclosed Wed Oct 16 00:00:04 2013