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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-10-19

---Logopened Sat Oct 19 00:00:10 2013
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04:12<zydeco>greetings, comrades
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04:29<@Alberth>good mornink
04:30<frosch123>hmm, what happened?
04:30<frosch123>i was here before albert
04:30<frosch123>moin :)
04:31<@Alberth>I am late :)
04:31<LordAro>/o all
04:34<andythenorth>git != hg
04:34<andythenorth>my fingers forget
04:34<andythenorth>so when are we switching to git? o_O
04:36<@Alberth>as soon as they have useful patch queue support?
04:36<@Alberth>rebase stuff doesn't really appeal to me, so far
04:37<andythenorth>I don't use rebase :P
04:37<andythenorth>for me git has no advantage over hg, except that I currently have to use 3 different VCS on a daily / weekly basis :P
04:37<andythenorth>1 fewer would be nice
04:38<LordAro>you can generally use git in place of all others, can you not?
04:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what are lines 11-17 here doing?
04:38<LordAro>certainly instead of svn
04:38<andythenorth>LordAro: not when your production deployment environment depends on svn
04:38<andythenorth>then you have to use svn
04:38<peter1138>svn smells
04:39<LordAro>does git svn not work?
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04:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it maps the length to "use single part" or "use 3 magic parts" and defines which vehicle is the "master"
04:41<andythenorth>wondering if I should copy your guards
04:41<andythenorth>are they guarding against bad info in the tracking table input?
04:41<andythenorth>ok, don't need that :)
04:42<andythenorth>so you don't allow length > 16
04:42<andythenorth>and obviously length < 3 is problematic :P
04:42<andythenorth>maybe I should add guards for < 3 and > 10 (max length in this set)
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>it's not "problematic" per se, just "not useful"
04:42<andythenorth>it would be problematic for me
04:43<andythenorth>I am enforcing 3 parts per vehicle
04:43<andythenorth>no other option :P
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04:43<andythenorth>where is your useful dict of lengths?
04:43*andythenorth looks
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds silly :)
04:43<andythenorth>np thanks
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04:55<andythenorth>invisible lead part makes depot stuff tricky
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04:59<andythenorth>well this is fun :P
05:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's why have a gui view template
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05:21<zydeco>wouldn't be great if you could run commands from external files using the gamescript API or something
05:21<LordAro>sounds potentially malicious, imo
05:22<zydeco>I was thinking it'd be useful for custom editor commands
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05:26<peter1138>I think it's all sandboxed for a reason, heh
05:39<andythenorth>trailing part weights are 0
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05:47<andythenorth>python get a property, with a default if failing?
05:47*andythenorth looks
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05:49<@Alberth>from a dict? yes
05:49<LordAro>anyone awake with windows development setup?
05:49<andythenorth>getattr in this case :)
05:50<@Alberth>ooh, looking in the deep mystic parts of python o_o
05:50<andythenorth>always seems a bit naughty
05:50<andythenorth>like cheating
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06:08<@Alberth>zydeco: are you Zydeco in the tt-forums? If so, did you consider implementing the new scenario format and use that?
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06:20<zydeco>I am, but I'm not familiar with the new scenario format
06:24<@Alberth>the idea is to be able to make a scenario without having non-mutable newgrfs getting in there (they are supposed to be selectable after or during loading of the scenario. Also, the format allows 3rd party data to be expressed in an openttd readable format, much like your patch
06:25<@Alberth>this format could also include readme files, and a game script to be used alongside in the scenario
06:25<zydeco>ohh, I remember this
06:34<zydeco>it would be easy to modify that into using latitude/longitude for towns
06:35<@Alberth>yeah, or add another format for expressing town data, or so
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06:37<@Alberth>I don't know exactly what it proposes for towns, but requirements range from being specific down each house, to something very global like rough position and size. I can imagine you cannot express all those requirements in one format.
06:37<zydeco>well, it could have some fields but not others
06:38*Alberth nods
06:39<@Alberth>plenty of options to choose from
06:50<zydeco>now I'm thinking about the road layer stuff
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06:52<@Alberth>that wiki-page is a global design without implementation, things can be changed
06:52<@Alberth>on the other hand, it might be better not to do that too long, in order to make real progress
06:55<zydeco>is there any partial implementation?
06:55<zydeco>I don't like the roads being 3x3 though
06:59<@Alberth>I have a patch queue from Terkhen with some general infra structure for having layers afaik
06:59<@Alberth>and I wrote a patch for writing a tar file
07:00<zydeco>I think there should be about 17 road tile combinations for each road type
07:00<@Alberth>roads is indeed one of the problematic points, but so far a better solution for expressing one-way roads, and partial roads has not been found
07:01<zydeco>no, 21
07:01<@Alberth>an alternative could be to make all layers 3x3
07:01<@Alberth>the idea of using such layers is to support graphic editors that can edit images in layers
07:02<@Alberth>hi planetmaker
07:04<zydeco>there could be one colour for north-south roads, another one for east-west, and another for junctions/curves which would be auto-generated according to the tiles on their sides
07:04<zydeco>and other colours for one-way roads too
07:05<zydeco>and if a pixel is a junction and only has a road on one edge, it would be a partial road
07:05<zydeco>some things wouldn't be doable like this though
07:06<@Alberth>colour-coding will work for computers, but not for humans, I think, and indeed, being able to express everything you can do in openttd is important
07:06<@planetmaker>zydeco, yes. The problem is ... ^
07:07<@planetmaker>otherwise just different grayscales would work well
07:07<@planetmaker>but you cannot nicely draw that with your pixel editor of choice
07:08<@Alberth>ie imagine a person wanting to make a map in the editor
07:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25882 trunk/src/subsidy.cpp (2013-10-19 11:17:29 UTC)
07:17<zydeco>maybe the usual cases could be done with 3 colours, n-s road, e-w road, and auto curve/junction
07:17<@DorpsGek>-Change [FS#5766]: Don't offer subsidies for auto-distributed cargo.
07:17<zydeco>but it could also accept other colours for when auto junction doesn't work
07:21<@Alberth>would you be a happy person if you had to draw such roads in a graphic editor?
07:22<zydeco>I don't know how detailed people usually make roads in scenarios
07:23<@Alberth>I don't know either, but at least you have roads in 2 directions, and junctions
07:23<@Alberth>which thus implies you need to switch colours constantly
07:23<@Alberth>and the graphics don't show you what you made
07:24<@Alberth>such things drove us to the current solution
07:24<zydeco>actually, if it's just a single road, it could work with just one colour
07:25<zydeco>the only time you can't do it automatically is if you have road tiles next to each other you don't want to be joined
07:26<@Alberth>and when you want an extension somewhere as hint where to start extending, for example
07:28<@Alberth>It'd be useful if you can express everything that openttd supports imho. You may be right that for many cases, a simple road layer may be sufficient
07:29<@Alberth>we could add that as another way to express roads
07:29<@Alberth>it'd need a bit of study what to do when you get both types of layers then, but that should be solvable
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08:52<andythenorth>now that I've built it
08:52<andythenorth>I know what the design _should_ have been :P
08:53<@Alberth>that's quite normal :p
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08:53<andythenorth>almost a rule
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09:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25883 /trunk/src (vehicle.cpp vehicle_base.h) (2013-10-19 13:17:06 UTC)
09:17<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Limit recursion and branching in RefreshNextHopsStats more aggressively.
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10:14<andythenorth>is all
10:14<@Alberth>I agree
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10:16*Alberth gets a bit tired of people trying to push ttdpatch features into openttd
10:16<andythenorth>where? o_O
10:16<@Alberth>in particular, for programmable signals :(
10:17<andythenorth>my meh was because I didn't read my own code properly :P
10:19*andythenorth doesn't understand
10:19<andythenorth>but nvm
10:20<andythenorth>why are we talking about signals, when newgrf effect vehicles still aren't done :P
10:20<andythenorth>and objects can't be built by industries :P
10:20<andythenorth>I have signals already
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>concerning scenario roads: i'd settle for an option to just provide the road tiles and openttd figuring out the connections between on its own by detecting the neighbouring tiles. with some slight tweaking of parallel roads that should be sufficient for most people. it could have this 3x3 mode available as an option for people who need more details
10:24<@Alberth>(or openttd needing a simple export format :p )
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10:36<DanMacK>Hey all
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11:29<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25884 trunk/src/window.cpp (2013-10-19 15:28:54 UTC)
11:29<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Resizing the window did not properly resize the viewport window, resulting in the link graph glitching.
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11:45<frosch123>hearthstone tl open #1.... is that even a thing?
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13:15<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r25885 /trunk/src/linkgraph (4 files) (2013-10-19 17:15:19 UTC)
13:15<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Keep paths sorted so that the ones with flow == 0 are in the back and don't have to be iterated over so often.
13:17<peter1138>*at the back
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25886 trunk/src/lang/ukrainian.txt (2013-10-19 17:45:08 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>ukrainian - 17 changes by Strategy
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14:29<Eddi|zuHause>"In my experience, every problem is fun and logical once you get an understanding of it." <- i'd like to dispute that theory :p
14:30<frosch123>nothing involving the axiom of choice is logical
14:30<frosch123>that's my experience :p
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15:48<andythenorth>Alberth: against my judgement I'm using **kwargs a lot....I need to pass these on when calling super() in an __init__, but I need to modify them first
15:48<andythenorth> kwargs['base_numeric_id'] = base_numeric_id <- seems incredibly wrong / ugly
15:50<@Alberth>just one value? otherwise you might want to consider dict.update
15:50<andythenorth>might be more than one
15:50<andythenorth>in principle it really shouldn't feel wrong
15:50<andythenorth>it's just a dict
15:50<andythenorth>but because **kwargs is magic, I don't trust it :P
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>just add it at function call? f(blah=x, **kwargs=?
15:51<andythenorth>yeah that works too
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15:51<@Alberth>it's not really magic, it's just that you don't see what arguments you provide any more
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>that should be the proper solution, as long as kwargs doesn't contain blah already
15:52<andythenorth>oh it does :)
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>then you probably have an architecture problem
15:55<andythenorth>I do have an architecture problem
15:56<andythenorth>I have base classes that know a bit too much
15:56<@Alberth>we tried having a class for the parameters one one already didn't we?
15:56<@Alberth>*one time
15:57<andythenorth>sounds familiar
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15:57<@Alberth>thought so too
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>at times like this i'm glad the CETS generator is not object-oriented :)
15:58<@Alberth>or just less parameterized :)
15:58<andythenorth>all was well for the simple case
15:58<andythenorth>now I need to stay out of OO-soup :P
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>oh, i have functions of higher order instead :)
15:58<andythenorth>the objects work really well for FISH, because ships are simple
15:58<@Alberth>you need a way to incrementally set the parameters instead of all at the same time
15:58<andythenorth>and it works ok for FIRS, once you know the interface
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>well, i do have classes for the parse tree of the graphics evaluation
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>and a helper class or two
16:00<andythenorth>I have a pretty nasty inheritance chain
16:00<andythenorth>partly because trains can be wagons or engines, and the difference matters across multiple props
16:00<andythenorth>and because I have to consider articulated parts
16:01<andythenorth>and because I've layered in a load of extra crap about invisible articulated parts
16:01<andythenorth>so there are now layers of nonsense
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>see, for me those are just simple table entries
16:01<andythenorth>dealing with 'must this propery be 0'
16:01<andythenorth>and such
16:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so you just blat the table into props, and render whatever is there?
16:02<andythenorth>with some guards?
16:03<andythenorth>I found that a bit limiting with FISH
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>i just noticed, i probably have no guards against "articulated part must be "spec"(ial)
16:04<andythenorth>the object code I had a few weeks ago would have been fine, except the requirement to do > 8/8 vehicles
16:04<andythenorth>which basically means fighting the game somewhat
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>so why not just have a special (derived) class for 10lu vehicles, which handles the 3-part stuff?
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>and keep 8lu and less the way it is?
16:08<andythenorth>easier to just have everything as 3 parts
16:08<andythenorth>in the long run :P
16:08<andythenorth>the resulting code won't be too bad
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>i doubt that
16:08<andythenorth>the problem is refactoring from one to the other
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>there are some game mechanic problems
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>like articulated vehicles can't be dualheaded
16:09<andythenorth>that's ok
16:09<andythenorth>we've removed those
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>and can't be flipped around in the depot
16:09<andythenorth>no flipping allowed then :)
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16:11<andythenorth>this might prove to be limiting in the set design in future
16:11<andythenorth>only one way to find out...
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>also, you can't use things like "count vehicle chain of same ID" and stuff
16:12<andythenorth>and anything calculating offsets would be a nightmare
16:12<andythenorth>nightmare / a bit of work
16:12<andythenorth>e.g. I want props from neighbouring vehicles
16:12<andythenorth>(not sprite offsets)
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16:57*andythenorth found some more architecture suck that can be eliminated
16:57<andythenorth>but bedtime
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17:32<__ln__> (sfw)
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17:44<+glx>__ln__: that's crazy
17:44<+glx>but it's a good solution to prevent leaking of OEM disks
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17:55<__ln__>if it's a fake, someone has put a lot of effort into it
17:56<Supercheese>my first reaction was, "that surely must be fake"
17:59<__ln__>can't be fake, it's on the internet
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19:43<Supercheese>"Facere ut auto-mutatio longitudinem hamaxostichi contineat ablatione curruum (primo primorum), si hamaxostichus longior fiat mutatione hamaxae"
19:43<Supercheese>Hehe :)
19:44<Supercheese>In case reference is needed:
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 20 00:00:12 2013