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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-10-25

---Logopened Fri Oct 25 00:00:19 2013
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04:55<dihedral>pm :-)
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14:02<Wolf01>hi hi
14:03*Alberth waves hi
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14:51<andythenorth>does anyone understand the FIRS primary industry supply boost code?
14:51<andythenorth>there is a bug report in forums which looks plausible
14:52<andythenorth>for reference SUPPLY_BOOST_QUADRUPLE is 84
14:53<andythenorth>and the bug is that boost occurs for > 84, but not for == 84
14:54<@Alberth>change it to 83? (or 84-1)
14:54<Taede>supply_boost_quad = constant?
14:54<Taede>if so, change > to => ?
14:54<andythenorth>is that a comparison operator, or is this bit shifting?
14:54<andythenorth>I can't read this code :)
14:55<kero>oh, I'm not the only one not understanding this code ? :)
14:55<kero>(i'm the keoz of the report)
14:55<andythenorth>I wanted to refactor it a long time ago to use the production multiplier, but I can't understand it
14:55<Taede>ive never read pnml before, but it seems to be an inline-if
14:56<andythenorth>if it used production multiplier then in theory game scripts could manipulate production independently of newgrf (they have no ability to this, but the theory is nice)
14:57<@Alberth>good point Taede, the two > at line 24 may be changeable to >= to fix the problem
14:58<Taede>if >= quad then store 3, if >= double then store 1, else store 0, thats how i read that line
14:58<Taede>well, >
14:59<andythenorth>someone try it and compile?
14:59<andythenorth>compiling takes 4 mins :)
15:00*Taede will leave that to someone who has newgrf compiling set up
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15:05<kero>I'd be willing to try, but i'll need to install all the weird dependencies
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15:09<@Alberth>it has weird dependencies? :o
15:09<kero>just a little :)
15:09<kero>I'm watching at it
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15:25<alluke>there seems to be a bug in ecs vectors
15:25<alluke>coal mines decrease all time even if theres continuous demand
15:26<Supercheese>you may have to feed the mines some supplies or whatnot
15:26<Supercheese>even in ECS
15:26<alluke>other industries can keep the 100% without supplies
15:27<alluke>cheated two coal mines to 100 and theyve dropped to 76 now
15:31<@Alberth>do shorter trains work?
15:31<kero>mmh, nml wants PIL, but on my system there already is Python-Pillow (a fork), both are in conflict. Would nml use pillow ?
15:32<kero>hi planetmaker
15:32<alluke>why would theymy coal trains carry 1288-1344 tons at once
15:32<__ln__>tons or tonnes
15:33<alluke>whats the difference
15:33<@Alberth>kero: yes
15:33<@Alberth>hi planetmaker
15:34<Supercheese>Well, tonnes must be larger, it has more letters :P
15:34<kero>Alberth : thanks
15:34<@Alberth>Pillow is supposed to be a drop-in for PIL
15:36<@Alberth>alluke: shorter trains -> more visits -> higher station rating -> happy industry
15:37<alluke>now that doesnt make any sense
15:37<alluke>i prefer bigger and fewer trains because less trains
15:38<@Alberth>ever read the game mechanics wiki page?
15:38<kero>mmh and nml wants setuptools, but the setuptools in Arch repositories doesnt support python 3 ...
15:38<kero>Ok, this is becoming boring. I'll try another time.
15:39<alluke>but thats the most stupid feature ive heard for a while
15:39<alluke>megatrains ftw
15:39<@Alberth>kero: nml is Pythno2
15:39<kero>python install
15:39<kero>WARNING: Sorry, python 3.0 or later is not yet supported. Some parts may not work.
15:39<@Alberth>and it will run without actual install
15:40<kero>mmh. All of this is quite cryptic
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15:41<Supercheese>Seems like you have low station ratings, despite trains always loading
15:41<Taede>try python2 install?
15:41<Taede>so that itll use python 2.x provided its installed
15:42<alluke>idiotic feature
15:42<kero>python 2 is installed, as is python 3
15:42<alluke>that station is rated 68%
15:43<kero>Taede : i have still the same error : "ImportError: No module named setuptools"
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15:45<Supercheese>ECS wants ratings higher than 68% for max production
15:45<@Alberth>just run it uninstalled :)
15:46<kero>Alberth : ok, I'll try.
15:46<kero>Anyway, I dont like installing as root not repositories-material
15:46<andythenorth>one day I'll write down a bomb-proof way to get nml
15:46<andythenorth>kero: same here
15:46<Supercheese>My first time trying to install nml dependencies was a disaster too
15:46<andythenorth>it's a cluster fuck :)
15:46<Supercheese>I eventually got it working
15:46<@Alberth>kero I have a soft-link from my ~/bin to the nml main program
15:47<andythenorth>most python packaging is a cluster fuck
15:47<kero>ok, now let's go for chameleon/markdown (? :/)
15:47<andythenorth>once setuptools is fixed / replaced (which is happening) life gets better
15:47<@planetmaker>apt-get install python-markdown
15:47<@planetmaker>apt-get install python-chameleon
15:47<@planetmaker>in my case
15:47<@Alberth>oh, firs source code :D
15:47<andythenorth>everyone has their own methods :)
15:48<kero>Alberth : what is it the main ? just nmlc ?
15:48<Supercheese>smells like linux
15:48<kero>oh yes. nml compiler
15:48<@planetmaker>yes. just nmlc in binary path suffices
15:48<kero>planetmaker : i have mardown but not chameleon on Arch
15:48<andythenorth>I don't want to throw in confusing advice, but I now do zero python without a virtualenv. ymmv. just saying
15:50<kero>mmh for markdown: do I need the python implementation ?
15:50<@Alberth>frosch123: eints update reverted my plural form changes on coratian and brazilian in firs
15:50<kero>community/python2-markdown 2.3.1-2
15:50<@planetmaker>^ sounds about right
15:50<kero>let's go
15:51<@planetmaker>and indeed. I'd welcome an addition which allows an easy install of nmlc
15:51<@planetmaker>current procedure is rather painful
15:53<@Alberth>more immediate problem might be dropping of python2
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15:53<andythenorth>planetmaker: I tried before, but it got mired
15:53<andythenorth>there are a few fundamental blockers :)
15:54<@planetmaker>how immediate is that, Alberth ?
15:54<andythenorth>(1) the only solution I know of is Buildout (there are others). Buildout is... strange
15:54<andythenorth>(2) there was disagreement about the purpose and aims :P
15:55<@planetmaker>well. I pondered about that some time ago. The conclusion I arrived at basically is: options are so many, that it probably is best to support one or two ways to properly install it. Buildout maybe. And maybe another... not sure which
15:55<V453000>do I just put this like randomly anywhere, or? :D sort(<feature>, [<ID>, <ID>, <ID>...]);
15:56<andythenorth>I think last conversation went something like:
15:56<andythenorth>- only andythenorth wants a single simple install
15:56<andythenorth>- everyone else installs system-wide using ${magic linux package managers}
15:56<andythenorth>- there is a windows binary for luser
15:56<andythenorth>lusers *
15:57<@planetmaker>yes, that's some time ago
15:57<@Alberth>lies, I don't install at all :p
15:57<@planetmaker>But as we want to offer people possibly an easy way to "install" also nightlies, it might be good to make that easy
15:57<@planetmaker>and nightlies are not in linux packages
15:59<andythenorth>example buildout .cfg
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15:59<andythenorth>installs node.js and other non-python crap too
15:59<alluke>imho stations should be rated via how much stuff gets moved to the vehicles
15:59<alluke>if the stuff gets piled up on to the station you should get worse ratings
16:00<@planetmaker>setuptools probably is the other option which might be handy
16:01<alluke>because carrying big loads at once is more economical
16:01<kero>andythenorth : to compile FIRS, a simple "make" should be enough ?
16:01<andythenorth>if you have the deps yes
16:01<@planetmaker>the result should be a tar file
16:02<@planetmaker>(and a grf file, too)
16:02<kero>I'm getting this:
16:02<@planetmaker>but tar with everything for easier distribution
16:02<kero>on which dependency i'm wrong ? :o
16:02<frosch123>alluke: what was reverted?
16:02<frosch123>committed? in eints?
16:03<frosch123>sorry alluke :)
16:03<@planetmaker>kero, can you run make _V= and paste output?
16:03<@Alberth>planetmaker: says "longer than the usual 2 years", which started counting in July 2010
16:04<@planetmaker>hm :-) Not too long anymore
16:04<kero>planetmaker :
16:05<V453000>guys how do I use the vehicle sorting? like where do I put this sort(<feature>, [<ID>, <ID>, <ID>...]);
16:05<@planetmaker>I do believe so, V453000
16:05<kero>mmh, can it come from the fact that I have python 2 and 3, and it may be confused ?
16:05<@planetmaker>just anywhere
16:05<V453000>thats wtf :D but lets try
16:05<V453000>and I use numeric or string IDs?
16:05<@planetmaker>hm, maybe, what's your default python, kero ?
16:05<frosch123>at the end, after you defined the vehicle ids
16:06<kero>planetmaker : 3.
16:06<frosch123>aww, devzone ssh won't fix itself :(
16:07<@planetmaker>kero, try make PYTHON=/path/to/python2
16:07<kero>I searched for a such variable but there isn't
16:07<@planetmaker>I hope it exists... FIRS might be a bit peculiar...
16:08<V453000>frosch123: do I use item(FEAT_TRAINS, item_C4T01, 730) iem_C4T01 - OR - 730 as ID?
16:08<kero>Rha. Still nothng:
16:08<V453000>or does it matter?
16:09<kero>i think it's not a python version problem, because the error is the same
16:09<frosch123>V453000: i guess it's the same, but i would use item_c4T01
16:11<kero>planetmaker : do you think it would be dangerous to change my /usr/bin python symlink to version2 instead of 3 for a moment ? :)
16:12<@Alberth>kero: it is, likely, python 3 does print("foo")
16:12<V453000>yeah good point
16:12*andythenorth checks that FIRS isn't broken
16:12<@Alberth>kero: what's the first line of nmlc?
16:12<@Alberth>make it #! /usr/bin/env python2
16:12<andythenorth>"shebang" :P
16:12<andythenorth>UK joke, quite out of context :P
16:14<kero>Alberth : I did, but works still not. I think the problem doesn't come from python version
16:14<andythenorth>virtualenv is your friend
16:14<@planetmaker>kero, for this experiment it would
16:14<andythenorth>FWIW, FIRS builds for me
16:14<@planetmaker>if you remember to revert it :-)
16:15<kero>planetmaker : i'll have a lot of thinks to revert. Starting with uninstalling all strange dependencies :)
16:17*andythenorth has 10 pythons :)
16:17<andythenorth>I just counted
16:17<V453000>you must construct additional pythons
16:17<@Alberth>as well as enough cages to keep all these animals
16:19<Supercheese>V453000: haha
16:19<andythenorth>6 of them are caged
16:19<Supercheese>Made me giggle
16:20<Supercheese>Whoah, Polish apparently has different plural forms for 4 things and 5 things
16:20<Supercheese>at least according to
16:21<andythenorth>Alberth: this thing fetches (and isolates) lots of pythons for you :)
16:21<andythenorth>which is useful when your project include 2.4, 2.6, 2.7 and 3
16:21<andythenorth>projects *
16:22<@Alberth>yeah :)
16:22<andythenorth>and Apple python is unstrustworthy
16:23<Supercheese>And the woman said, "The python deceived me, and I ate of the Apple."
16:23<frosch123>Alberth: i guess there is something wrong with make_langfile at least
16:24<frosch123>hmm, even with the language info
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16:24<@Alberth>Supercheese: actually, the apple is deceiving probably :)
16:24<Supercheese>Well, the Apple does have a bite out of it ;)
16:24<@Alberth>frosch123: did I make that?
16:25<frosch123>Alberth: whatever you commit, it does not matter
16:25<frosch123>eints gets the data from webtranslate/newgrf/
16:26<frosch123>but make_langfile uses some other struct
16:26<frosch123>it's no LanguageData apparently
16:26<@Alberth>I thought it uses the data from the translation file
16:26<frosch123>you wrote it :p
16:28<@Alberth>hmm, that cannot be correct; the language_info file has the plural form I changed it to. If you use that form, some strings are broken
16:28<frosch123>hmm, or does that only matter for new languages?
16:28<@Alberth>if you make a new language, it uses the plural form of the language_info file, as it has no other source
16:29<@Alberth>but in principle, the newgrf author decides
16:29<@Alberth>although that may be a bad idea :)
16:29<frosch123>where is the Language class defined?
16:29<@planetmaker>yeah. Languages are defined by OpenTTD rather than NewGRFs
16:29<frosch123>it's a shitty term to grep for :)
16:30<frosch123><language langid="56" name="hr_HR" plural="0"> <- ok, so it is saved in the project
16:31<@Alberth>ok, perhaps it's not copied on an update then
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16:32<frosch123>anyway, does not look like it would copy #plural from the uploade data
16:32<frosch123>yeah, what you said :)
16:32<frosch123>it copies the skeleton
16:32<frosch123>but not the meta data
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16:35<alluke>my 32 tile ore train dislikes hills
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16:40<Supercheese>Sounds like you need to Try More Power™
16:41*andythenorth tests this FIRS fix
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16:41<andythenorth>what a ball ache FIRS is
16:41<andythenorth>slow slow slow
16:41<Supercheese>5 min compiles?
16:42<kero>oh, you are testing it ?
16:42<andythenorth>trying to
16:42<andythenorth>if I don't get bored first
16:42<kero>I'm still stuck on my compile error :p
16:43<kero>there's something I don't understand: is it coded in nml, pnml or both ?
16:43<andythenorth>ha :)
16:43<andythenorth>the answer is worse than that
16:43<@planetmaker>much worse :D
16:43<kero>that's what I was fearing
16:44<kero>yes, python too ...
16:44<andythenorth>python -> pnml -> nml
16:45<Supercheese>Then doesn't it go to nfo before going to grf?
16:45<kero>must have been nice to code :)
16:45<Supercheese>python -> pnml -> nml -> nfo -> grf?
16:46<andythenorth>no nfo
16:46<andythenorth>considered it
16:47<andythenorth>was faster for a bit
16:47<andythenorth>but nml was improved
16:52<kero>root@kdesktop /usr/bin # ln -s python2 python
16:52<kero>at least, starts working
16:53<andythenorth>kero: >= seems to work for production change
16:53<kero>Cool !
16:53<andythenorth>need to test some more
16:54<kero>I'm gonna testing right now.
16:54<@Alberth>probably a change in the order of 2 bits or so :)
16:55<andythenorth>"Yate Hagan" :P
16:55*andythenorth got a birthday cake in Yate
16:55<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
16:56<andythenorth>kero: working for farms
16:56<kero>Well. Thanks to all which helped
16:56<andythenorth>code is same for other industries -should work
16:57<andythenorth>I'll push now
16:58<andythenorth>my hg is sulking :P
16:58<andythenorth>but when it goes, bundles server should get it and build it
16:58<kero>you change it directly on the rep ?
16:58<andythenorth>I changed it in my repo and am trying to push it
16:59<kero>well finally I succeded compiling so I'll already try it
16:59<kero>if I find problems, i'll inform you :)
16:59<andythenorth>ok :)
17:02<kero>by the way, is FIRS supposed better playable changing station rating ?
17:03<kero>(by "better", I mean that it would be nearly unplayable without)
17:03<@Alberth>nah, not that better
17:03<Supercheese>I believe it is better than "Grim and mean"
17:03<Supercheese>which is a pretty accurate description of default OTTD rating scheme
17:04<kero>I'm mean, I don't change the rating for myself, at least for the moment, but it's not that easy
17:04<@Alberth>it makes it simpler in the sense that you can leave a station empty for a while
17:04<Supercheese>As alluke has found out, even with trains constantly loading, often your rating cannot go over 68-ish percent with default algorithm
17:05<andythenorth>FIRS ignores that :)
17:05<kero>actually, the change is quite big. Even when you always have a train in a station, the rating is greater
17:05<andythenorth>I find it boring
17:05<andythenorth>it adjusts some delay period
17:05<andythenorth>can't remember what
17:05<Supercheese>Ding, baking complete:
17:05<andythenorth>I like small number of trains per station, not 20 waiting :P
17:05<@Alberth>you don't need to, it's in the source :)
17:06<Supercheese>Let cool for 4-5 mins before serving ;)
17:06<@Alberth>good night
17:06<andythenorth>night Alberth
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17:18<alluke>ecs should ignore it too
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17:19<alluke>actually, it could be removed from the trunk too
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17:21<kero>code a patch :)
17:21<kero>must not be so difficult to change that
17:23<andythenorth>someone needs to fix my offsets :P
17:23<andythenorth>they are very wrogn
17:24<kero>it's about sprites ? I don't understand anything about graphics
17:28<kero>mmh does the station rating change is activ also for pax/mails ?
17:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: do your CETS offsets deal with crazy turning angles? I wouldn't be able to copy them
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>just use the "normal" view
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>and the "gui" view
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>and the slices for tunnel stuff, but if you only use 10lu you might even live without that
17:30<andythenorth>are you really doing hill sprites too? :o
17:33*andythenorth was in the CETS repo
17:36*andythenorth bed
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17:59<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure i said "it would be easily extendible, but i won't do it"
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 26 00:00:20 2013