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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-10-29

---Logopened Tue Oct 29 00:00:24 2013
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06:41<kero>Is there a way to launch openttd using an alternative .openttd-whatever repository ?
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07:09<@planetmaker>kero, what do you mean?
07:09<@planetmaker>you can check out openttd sources from whatever repo you feel comfortable to trust and compile that
07:09<kero>well when I launch openttd, it uses and search files in my ~/.openttd
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07:09<@planetmaker>it uses the files in all paths as outlined in section 4.2
07:09<kero>I was wondering if it can use another repository
07:10<@planetmaker>I'd not call file system paths repository though :-)
07:10<@planetmaker>you cannot configure the default paths other than at compile time
07:11<@planetmaker>you can force it to use the ones local to your binary, if you put a config file next to it
07:11<MNIM-zZz>wait, seriously, planetmaker?
07:11<@planetmaker>MNIM-zZz, read section 4 of the readme please
07:11<MNIM-zZz>would've thought the data folder would be less hardcoded.
07:11<kero>I was meaning changing repository on the fly
07:12<MNIM-zZz>also, readme? hehehehehe ;)
07:12<kero>an option a little bit like the -c for config file
07:12<@planetmaker>you hardly can configure the config path in a config file - how should it find it otherwise in a non-default place, MNIM-zZz ?
07:12<MNIM-zZz>...huh. valid point
07:14<@planetmaker>kero, as you're on linux you could nicely make use of symlinks, though ;-)
07:14<kero>that's anyway what I do atm :)
07:14<@planetmaker>kero, thus what I do, I usually want the reverse: specific config file per server which share the newgrf, ai and base set dirs:
07:15<@planetmaker>I put the cfg next to the binary. And symlink the newgrf, ai content_download, game and baseset dirs to their counterparts in ~/.openttd
07:16<@planetmaker>thus any download from the server with its individual config file lands in the general-use content-download dir
07:18<@planetmaker>but what problem do you try to solve, kero ?
07:20<kero>I wouldn't speak about a problem. Sometimes I wan't to launch openttd completely vanilla, without config changes/newgrf, to check things
07:21<kero>specially because I don't wan't my openttd.cfg file being changed while I try things
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>kero: try the "-c" option to specify the location of the config file, then it should use paths relative to that location
07:25<kero>I already tried, but I doesn't really works. It also loads things in the original ~/.openttd
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07:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it wouldn't _save_ them there
07:35<peter1138>Have we not switched to XDG paths yet?
07:40<@Rubidium>is that part of systemd? ;)
07:40<peter1138>... no.
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>i know that we used xdg open for launching the browser, but otherwise i have no clue
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>kero: if you're worried about "generic" stuff slipping in, don't have an .openttd directory at all, but use the -c option for all instances
07:43<peter1138>Well, as we still use .openttd, that's a no :-)
07:44<kero>Eddi|zuHause : indeed, i'll maybee to that
07:46<kero>Now: it's not as if it was a great deal. I was just wondering if the possibility existed to specify the directory path.
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07:48<zydeco>greetings, comrades
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08:15<Eddi|zuHause>kero: well the other solution would be to run them as different users :)
08:18<kero>for sure !
08:18<kero>in french we would call that kind of solution "tuer une mouche avec un bazooka"
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08:21<Eddi|zuHause>i'd assume that means the same as "mit kanonen auf spatzen schießen" :p
08:21<kero>just that
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12:21<alluke>swedish houses set lacks big stone houses in early years
12:22<@planetmaker>did you draw them?
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12:28<alluke>but they seem to appear too late
12:28<alluke>those existed already in 1800s
12:28<alluke>its 1925 and all houses are small ones in the suburbs
12:29<alluke>city centrums are all empty
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13:40<Sacro>Anyone here code Python?
13:41<frosch123>python is likely the most popular language in this channel
13:41<frosch123>though it's hard to rate against c++ considernig all the idlers :p
13:41<V453000>what, even people who dont know what python is hate it around here
13:42<frosch123>V453000: python is the language, nml is written in. no python, no nuts, ok?
13:42<V453000>not ok! :D
13:42<Sacro>I'm trying to move some classes into modules, but the class inherites from a variable decalred from an ORM
13:42<Sacro>I'm unable to figure out just how this works ><
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13:51<@Alberth>have a cookie!
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13:59<Sacro>my head hurts
13:59<Sacro>I don't get Python :(
13:59<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
14:00<@Alberth>Sacro: what's the problem?
14:00<Sacro>so I declare global db
14:00<Sacro>db = Database('sqlite', 'cifimporter.sqlite', create_db=True)
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14:00<@Alberth>hi hi
14:01<Sacro>not global, sorry
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14:01<Sacro>and then I can define class foo(db.Entity): ...
14:02<Sacro>however I want to move these classes into seperate files
14:02<Sacro>but I need to pass the db ... poi nter to them
14:02<Sacro>also I'm getting stupid amounts of packet loss over wifi
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14:04<@Alberth>make a global db in one file, then import that in the file of class foo
14:05<Sacro>I tried that
14:05<Sacro>I think
14:05<Sacro>I put global db in both files
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14:06<@Alberth>you need 1 db, unless you want two dbs, of course
14:06<@Alberth> db = .... import a class foo(a.db.Entity): ...
14:08<Sacro>Doesn't then that couple foo to a?
14:08<Sacro>this is why I don't code ><
14:09<@Alberth>it is coupled, isn't it? foo is a derived class from a.db.Entity
14:11<Sacro>Well, I wanted to have all my ORM classes in seperate files
14:11<Sacro>if I have to pass the calling class then that makes it rather pointless
14:12<@Alberth>Python is not Java; it's fine to have classes that belong together in one file
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14:13<frosch123>@seen zuu
14:13<@DorpsGek>frosch123: zuu was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 20 hours, 53 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <Zuu> hello
14:13<Sacro>Alberth: yes but it was more so I could easily bring them all togeher
14:14<Sacro>so why does 'from foo import bar' fai
14:15<Sacro>but 'import' works
14:17<@Alberth>the last time I checked, Python recommended to use full package paths, ie from the root of the package.
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14:17<@Alberth>could that be an issue here?
14:18<@Alberth>there were ideas to make it more flexible, but I didn't check what was eventually changed
14:18<Sacro>I have no idea
14:19<@Alberth>it may also depend on how you use the imported module
14:19<@Alberth>in the former, you have "bar" but not "foo"
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25930 /trunk/src/lang (english_US.txt italian.txt) (2013-10-29 18:45:14 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
14:45<@DorpsGek>italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
14:48<Eddi|zuHause><Sacro> so why does 'from foo import bar' fai <-- that only works if foo/ contains "import bar"
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15:18<LordAro>say, this looks fun:
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15:34<andythenorth>I do enjoy this thread
15:34<andythenorth>"OpenTTD is basically no good" :)
15:34<V453000>the 552 or 2158th edition?
15:34<andythenorth>let me think
15:36<andythenorth>thread is here btw
15:37<andythenorth>what we really need is a way to level up
15:37<andythenorth>and two forms of in-game currency
15:37<Pinkbeast>I'm not sure anything has _changed_ to make it easier...
15:38<andythenorth>one of which can only be obtained by buying it from us for real money
15:38<andythenorth>and experience points
15:38<andythenorth>and mini-challenges that unlock bonus items
15:38*andythenorth has been exposed to too many casual games with in-game purchases recently :P
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15:40<Eddi|zuHause>there were lots of changes that made the game "easier"
15:41<@Alberth>reduce mapsize back to 256 x 256 ?
15:41<V453000>not worth bothering with these threads anymore :D
15:42<V453000>also you need to be able to shoot people in the game
15:42<V453000>otherwise its just sub par
15:42<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I found the most interesting thing that the person argues with difficulty levels which don't exist anymore for quite some time :-)
15:43<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, try to make money on a 64^2, a 256^2 and a 1024^2 map :-)
15:44<Pinkbeast>On a 64^2 one can make enough money to connect every industry and town and transport all their cargo (that vehicle speed will permit rating to allow) and terraform the whole map to a pancake... what would you _do_ with more?
15:44<andythenorth>it's such a spurious issue anyway :P
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15:44<Pinkbeast>I mean, I think using earning money as an insight into difficulty only matters when there's something to buy (or if, Simutrans-style, you might go bankrupt).
15:45<andythenorth>it's intriguing: many of the suggestions for make it harder revolve around 'make it a more realistic simulation'
15:46<andythenorth>because, fuck yeah, reality has such great gameplay :P
15:46<V453000>those threads should actively be trolled by andythenorth I feel like
15:46<andythenorth>I am in a trolly mood
15:46<V453000>for a change
15:46<andythenorth>I did some epic Lego trolling this week
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15:49<andythenorth>so anyway
15:49<andythenorth>the casual games I've been playing are stuff like Pocket Trains and Dragon City
15:49<andythenorth>they are really beautiful, really nice sound effects, and really addictive
15:50<@planetmaker>and really expensive pay2win
15:50<andythenorth>but they are free-to-download. The business model is in-app purchases
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15:50<andythenorth>so all the 'gameplay' is really tedious menial tasks, with loooong time delays
15:50<andythenorth>and basically you can then spend £1.49 - £99 to just win stuff
15:51<andythenorth>so it's basically menial work and/or shopping
15:51<andythenorth>zero strategy or tactics
15:51<@Alberth>but then you'd need to think, which takes brain power you could spend on buying stuff
15:53<andythenorth>they are *really* addictive
15:53<andythenorth>and quite rewarding for first few days, as you make level progression quickly
15:53<andythenorth>and they are really well crafted
15:53<andythenorth>but I'm going right off them :P
15:53<V453000>mor nuts - time well spent
15:54<andythenorth>it's boring to realise that the only thing I'm playing against is my own attention span
15:54<andythenorth>and whether I cave in and hit 'purchase'
15:55<andythenorth>I have no point here, just observing
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>we are clearly in the last days of our civilization
15:56<andythenorth>I think we're always in the last days of our current civilisation :P
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>it's obvious that it's completely falling apart in the next 50-100 years
15:57<andythenorth>afaik, from some tiny historical knowledge, that has been obvious for at least 2000 years
15:58<andythenorth>and as at least Indian civilisation history goes back about 5k years, I _think_ it has been obvious that long
15:58<Pinkbeast>Pretty sure some of the Chinese dynasties thought they'd last forever
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, i mean like the easter island, the khmer empire or the maya empire kind of "falling apart"
16:00<andythenorth>anyway, I had an idea, might be nonsense
16:00<andythenorth>trying to figure out what an OpenTTD with no dates would be like
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>where 100 years later nobody even remembers there being an empire
16:01<andythenorth>time progression remains
16:01<Xaroth|Work>a timeless game, andythenorth.
16:01<andythenorth>but vehicle introductions etc are triggered against goals, not dates
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: implement "research"
16:02<Xaroth|Work>make a bigass skill tree
16:02<Xaroth|Work>like path of exile
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>yeah :)
16:02<Pinkbeast>Eddi|zuHause: I daresay the survivors will _remember_ the USA's hegemony
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>could make your engines 3% faster or 5% stronger
16:02<andythenorth>I've been playing a game with crafting
16:02<andythenorth>it's shit
16:02<@planetmaker>the concept of skills and the tree there is actually quite nice
16:03<andythenorth>crafting in a pay-for-stuff game is really lame
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>Pinkbeast: after the first european expeditions crossed north america to the mississippi region, they found a civilisation that built pyramids and stuff, when the settlers moved there 100 years later, the inhabitants were so decimated that they didn't have any knowledge of who built these ancient pyramids
16:05<Pinkbeast>Eddi|zuHause: Indeed, but the present arrangement is much, much better at producing written artifacts
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>Pinkbeast: that was true 20-200 years ago, but nowadays most things are electronic
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>and who's gonna be able to read a DVD in 20 years time?
16:06<@planetmaker>the present is terrible at leaving artefacts which last beyond 50 years time span
16:06<@Rubidium>even reading flash cards from a camera of half a decade ago is troublesome ;)
16:07<@planetmaker>unless it's printed books.
16:07<Pinkbeast>Hey, my 64M Flash card still works (but more seriously, "paperless office", my arse - computers are astonishingly good at producing print)
16:08<yorick>"to unlock more than 100 trains, press the donate link below!"
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>germany makes an archive for future generations to find, in some abandoned mine in a remote forest. there they don't store anything electronic, but on microfiche, so something a human could decipher if the archive is found in 500 years
16:09<andythenorth>assuming magnifying glasses survive
16:10<andythenorth>planetmaker: how would skills tree work?
16:10<andythenorth>I haven't played many games like that
16:11<andythenorth>games now all seem to have endless 'you won a fricking gold star' constant reward mechanics
16:11<andythenorth>'achievment unlocked'
16:11<Pinkbeast>Turning vehicle arrival dates into an R&D budget could be interesting
16:11<@planetmaker>andythenorth, in which game? OpenTTDPay2Win?
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>one of the problems of our current time is that we dig up so many archeological artifacts that when that knowledge gets lost again, the next civilization will have problems finding artifacts not only about our current time, but also about times before ours
16:13<@planetmaker>andythenorth, Indeed I like the path of exile way: define a few character 'classes'. And then they can move on in a web of paths from that point
16:13<@planetmaker>and each step along a path gives you +X in a certain skill
16:13<@planetmaker>skills not every time the same, but you know what comes
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>you never ever have enough skill points :p
16:14<@planetmaker>thus you can choose
16:14<andythenorth>this is so addictive
16:14<@planetmaker>and know which paths are nice
16:14*andythenorth went searching for Achievement Unlocked
16:14<andythenorth>"Who needs gameplay when you have ACHIEVEMENTS?"
16:14<andythenorth>"Focus solely on your ultimate destiny... doing random tasks that have nothing to do with anything. Metagame yourself with ease! Self-satisfaction never felt so... artificial!"
16:14<Pinkbeast>"Upgrade Complete" is quite cute as well, in a similiar vein
16:14<V453000>yeah unlocking nuts train levels and classes for example XD
16:15<@Alberth>andythenorth: sounds like your random GS :)
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16:15<andythenorth>It's all just a bit bizarre
16:15<Pinkbeast>V453000: NUTS would be a good fit because the "next" vehicle is actually expected to be better, yes.
16:15<andythenorth>when I grew up you had 'level complete' etc
16:15<andythenorth>but now kids get achievements, and for fricking everything
16:15<andythenorth>cleaned teeth: have an achievement
16:16<andythenorth>went to school: have an achievement
16:16<andythenorth>and this isn't a rant about 'kids today', it's nothing to do with them, they're 3 and don't choose this stuff
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, the "achievement unlocked" generation :)
16:16<V453000>achievements doesnt have to influence gameplay
16:16<V453000>e.g. starcraft - you get a shitload of various achievements which are fun
16:17<V453000>but it wont cause your game to be cuter etc
16:17<V453000>well yeah you can get portraits and meh, but not gameplay wise
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>achievement unlocked: unicorn bonus level
16:17<andythenorth>Car games that unlocked new car parts makes sense
16:18<andythenorth>I was playing Euro Truck Simulator for the last few months...Achievement: You Drove To Frankfurt
16:18<andythenorth>fuck yeah, I'm winning
16:18<andythenorth>let's keep playing
16:18<andythenorth>I'm really motivated
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>which frankfurt?
16:18<andythenorth>the teeny tiny pseudo one (Frankfurt-am-Main I think) in the game
16:18*Pinkbeast did go to most of the cities just to see which landmarks they got in the skybox
16:19<andythenorth>or there could be some kind of strategy...and tactics :P
16:19<Eddi|zuHause># Weil Frankfurt so groß ist teilt man's in zwei ein
16:19<Eddi|zuHause># In Frankfurt an der Oder und Frankfurt am Main
16:19<andythenorth>anyway, we should put achievements into OpenTTD so that we can attract many more players
16:19<andythenorth>and be truly successful
16:20<@planetmaker>goals are achievements, no?
16:21<@planetmaker>And yes, even when achievements do not influence the gameplay, they can be there
16:21<andythenorth>goals are different to achievements
16:21<@planetmaker>they give a 'purpose' in open-end games otherwise
16:21<@planetmaker>andythenorth, how?
16:21<@planetmaker>really depends on how you utilise openttd's 'goals'
16:21<andythenorth>goal is a thorny word in English
16:21<andythenorth>can mean different things
16:21<@planetmaker>it could simply give you a medal - and do otherwise nothing
16:21<@planetmaker>and keep track of those in the storybook
16:22<andythenorth>I view a goal as a win condition, with some progression
16:22<andythenorth>either closer to winning, or unlocking new gameplay
16:22<@planetmaker>the baby had to have a name :-) And yes, you *can* do that
16:22<andythenorth>of course, getting an achievement can be a goal, because the word goal is quite flexible in English
16:22<@planetmaker>but you can simply unlock nothing other than a wall of text.
16:22<@planetmaker>and a golden plastic crown
16:23<V453000>man nuts would be so awesome with tech tree :D especially e.g. unlocking the kinds of bonus engines
16:24<V453000>I cant think how would you evaluate when does a player get engine X (by what values), but yeah :D
16:24<andythenorth>what causes progression along the tree?
16:24<V453000>some achievement
16:24<V453000>or time if talking within train class
16:25<andythenorth>built 30 evil horse engines, get an evil zebra
16:25<andythenorth>build 50 evil zebras, get a unicorn
16:25<@planetmaker>like that. Or transport Xtons of cargo Y in one year
16:25<andythenorth>or travel 300,000 kilometers using evil zebras, get an evil giraffe
16:25<@planetmaker>Or grow a town to 5000 population (for express trains)
16:26<V453000>something like that andy
16:26<andythenorth>deliver x tons of steel to evil train plant
16:26<V453000>perhaps with a time limit
16:26<andythenorth>(evil steel)
16:26<V453000>e.g. transport W amount of cargo X by engines Y, you get Z
16:26<andythenorth>I think the forced isolation between newgrf and GS makes this...hard?
16:26<V453000>:D kind of?
16:27<andythenorth>it is interesting that the newgrf spec mostly developed in a foamer direction, not a gameplay direction
16:28<andythenorth>the set I am doing with Dan is getting more and more gameplay focussed, and less and less about making a model train sim based on real world
16:28<V453000>myeah, grf = grafix :P
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>transport X cargos for next level, and then exponential growth of X
16:29<andythenorth>I can't explain why, but I think hiding the real-world year would help this in some cases
16:30<andythenorth>I also see why so many of you like toyland, after playing it with child #1 a lot
16:30<andythenorth>I still hate it :P
16:30<andythenorth>but yeah, it's more fun, not so much model trains
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>civilization has a tech tree and a "real world year"
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>never had a problem with launching the spaceship in 1850 :p
16:31<andythenorth>he :)
16:32<andythenorth>but the dates are controlled by newgrf
16:32<andythenorth>and newgrf is golden, may never be touched, may never be over-ridden lest an author complain
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16:32<andythenorth>so what are we to do?
16:32<andythenorth>it's a real puzzle
16:33<andythenorth>the like of which is beyond minds like mine
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>transform newgrf's year of introduction into a tech level
16:33<andythenorth>and have the game manage that per player?
16:33<andythenorth>or per company perhaps
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>like vehicles introduced in 1920 cost 500 research points and vehicles in 1980 1 million
16:34<andythenorth>oh so there's some integer that increases up from 0?
16:34<andythenorth>and we could scale that against the default game, for those who want a boring real-world experience?
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, and you could focus on one engine which gets double points and all others half, or so
16:34<andythenorth>and it's up to GS how tech level changes?
16:35<andythenorth>wouldn't that also conveniently solve the utterly unrelated problems with randomised-per-model intro dates?
16:36<andythenorth>(and model expiry)
16:36<andythenorth>and afaik, most daylength requirements are about slowing down the rate of vehicle introduction?
16:37<andythenorth>so this would solve daylength for some fraction of players
16:39<@planetmaker>that *would* be an interesting gameplay for sure :-)
16:39<V453000>randomized intro dates are wtf anyway
16:39<andythenorth>they're pretty much unworkable
16:39<@planetmaker>the GS could also introduce new industries etc depending on tech levels
16:40<andythenorth>solving a whole load of specific date crap
16:40<@planetmaker>replacing it by specific tech level crap :D
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with that is that the newgrf must somehow define the tech levels
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise the GS can't do anything
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>or whatever the GS is doing will suck
16:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: can't we just use an integer value, normalised against default TTD?
16:41<andythenorth>1950 in default game = 500 or whatever
16:41<andythenorth>and newgrf just says 'this engine arrives at tech level 500'
16:41<andythenorth>again normalised against default game
16:42<andythenorth>we have to have some kind of baseline?
16:42*andythenorth guessing purely
16:42<andythenorth>btw when we play MP NoCarGoal or whatever, games are too short to care about dates and new vehicle introductions and stuff
16:42<andythenorth>but still a NoCarGoal challenge (or high score league) could track tech levels
16:43<andythenorth>and we could try playing with different newgrfs without needing an intimate knowledge of which ones introduce which vehicles when
16:44<V453000>well yeah because you are lazy bastards and play too short games :P
16:44<andythenorth>I blame the kid
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>extended CETS with vehicle every 2 years :p
16:44<andythenorth>anyway, this is all waffle, but in summary:
16:44<andythenorth>- ottd can't go manipulating the game date, people will whine, industries will break etc
16:45<andythenorth>- ottd can't currently over-ride newgrfs intro dates
16:45<andythenorth>- so let's have an abstraction
16:45<andythenorth>what can go wrong?
16:45<andythenorth>not much
16:46*andythenorth is going to the pub
16:46<andythenorth>first decent pony idea in a while though :D
16:46<V453000>good solution
16:46<andythenorth>thanks, I try
16:46<andythenorth>maybe it will get worked out while I am away?
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16:53<jrambo>is there a way to hotkey buying vehicles, or if not, to implement that in the game?
16:57<jrambo>there seems to be something in the hotkeys.cfg about it, but i cant get it to work :/
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds tricky, as you have to select a depot
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>so you can't just put "GLOBAL+key" on a button
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17:38<Wolf01>nighty night
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---Logclosed Wed Oct 30 00:00:25 2013