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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-10-31

---Logopened Thu Oct 31 00:00:02 2013
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01:23<LeandroL>hello all
01:24<LeandroL>what helicopter can i use to transport oil from an oil rig to a refinery?
01:24<LeandroL>and do i have to refit it?
01:24<Supercheese>You should not use a helicopter, use tanker ships
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02:49<LeandroL>Supercheese: how about airports that accept resources such as oil, iron ore, etc.
02:50<LeandroL>those airports aren't adjacent to any other stations, i.e. they're just airports
02:50<LeandroL>why do they display for example iron ore in their 'accepts' list?
02:51<LeandroL>is it because you could potentially accept such resources if you join the airport to a station of some other kind?
02:51<LeandroL>or is it actually possible to transport such resources with airborne vehicles?
02:51<V453000>is if the aircraft set allows it
02:51<V453000>e.g. av8
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02:56<Supercheese>Default airplanes should be refittable to most anything
02:57<V453000>not quite
02:57<Supercheese>But they are not suitable to transport large amounts of bulk freight
02:57*Supercheese has not played with default vehicles in ages
02:57<Supercheese>Perhaps they aren't refittable to anything
02:58<Supercheese>or rather, all things
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03:46<LeandroL>thanks for the tips
03:47<LeandroL>ok another question
03:47<LeandroL>i have 4 cities in a 128x64 map
03:47<LeandroL>all my cities are growing every 4 days
03:47<LeandroL>and yet, the world population is stuck at around 37,000
03:47<LeandroL>and has been this way for the last 20 years
03:48<LeandroL>and there's still plenty of space to grow all my cities
03:48<LeandroL>any idea why this is happening and how to fix it?
03:48<Supercheese>Make sure you minimize dead end roads, those can hurt house development
03:48<LeandroL>i'd like to eventually have most of my map covered with houses/infrastructure
03:49<Supercheese>http://wiki.openttd.org/Talk:Towns
03:49<Supercheese>http://wiki.openttd.org/Towns#Tips_for_Town_Growth
03:49<V453000>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/User:Mfb/Towns
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03:49<Supercheese>Even better
03:50<V453000>ikr :P
03:51<NGC3982>Morning.
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04:01<juzza1>08:51 < LeandroL> is it because you could potentially accept such resources if you join the airport to a station of some other kind?
04:01<juzza1>yes
04:02<juzza1>the game doesn't check if there actually is a vehicle type (for example, a plane) for that station that can pick up the goods
04:06<LeandroL>thanks juzza1
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04:58<ipewannasay>hello
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04:59<ipewannasay>guys, i want to ask about btpro.nl, is the site down or something?
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05:09<Xaroth|Work>I doubt btpro is in any way, shape or form supported by openttd
05:10<Xaroth|Work>so you should really ask them
05:10<V453000>:D point
05:11<Xaroth|Work>o/ V453000
05:11<ipewannasay>oh
05:12<ipewannasay>i thought you know something as it is one of the most multiplayer server :D
05:13<ipewannasay>thanks anyway
05:14<@planetmaker>moin
05:15<V453000>hi Xaroth
05:15<@planetmaker>ipewannasay, when did you last play on that server? I might be wrong, but I thought it's out-of-service for quite some time?
05:15<@planetmaker>but as said, contacting their admin staff is the right way, I'd say :-)
05:16<ipewannasay>just got back yesterday after 1 year gone
05:16<ipewannasay>XD
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05:32<@planetmaker>ipewannasay, did you look at all at their website?
05:35<@planetmaker>(obviously I was wrong with it being down and mixed up server names)
05:39<ipewannasay>sorry was afk :D
05:39<ipewannasay>i can't open the whole website
05:50<@planetmaker>that's your end then, not the server
05:51<@planetmaker>I could browse their website just fine half an hour ago
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05:54<peter1138>Actually no, I had a look but it was down.
05:54<Xaroth|Work>works here
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05:54<peter1138>Yes, it is working now.
05:56<V453000>I didnt look but its fine
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06:05<ipewannasay>still not working for me haha
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06:05<ipewannasay>gotta check the proxy setting
06:05<ipewannasay>thanks guy :D
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09:30<@Belugas>hello
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10:27<bn8735ghb>Do usa&Israel use chat &facebook 2 spy?!?!?!?
10:27<bn8735ghb>Do they record &analyse everything we type?!?!?!?
10:27<bn8735ghb>Do usa&israel use chat&social communicationprog(facebook&twitter) to collect informations,,,,can we call that spying!!!!
10:27<bn8735ghb>هل تستخدم امريكاواسرئيل الشات والفيس بوك للتجسس!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!
10:27<bn8735ghb>Do usa&Israel use chat &facebook 2 spy?!?!?!?
10:27<bn8735ghb>Do they record &analyse everything we type?!?!?!?
10:27<bn8735ghb>Do usa&israel use chat&social communicationprog(facebook&twitter) to collect informations,,,,can we call that spying!!!!
10:27<bn8735ghb>هل تستخدم امريكاواسرئيل الشات والفيس بوك للتجسس!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!
10:27<bn8735ghb>Do usa&Israel use chat &facebook 2 spy?!?!?!?
10:27<bn8735ghb>Do they record &analyse everything we type?!?!?!?
10:27<bn8735ghb>Do usa&israel use chat&social communicationprog(facebook&twitter) to collect informations,,,,can we call that spying!!!!
10:27<bn8735ghb>هل تستخدم امريكاواسرئيل الشات والفيس بوك للتجسس!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!
10:27<bn8735ghb> Egyptian moslem
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10:28<frosch123>@kban bn8735ghb
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10:32<V453000>lol
10:41<LordAro>yes, probably
10:41<LordAro>:p
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11:57<LordAro>so i have to write an essay on a "classic text" in CS, any ideas?
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11:58<frosch123>what's a classic text?
11:58<LordAro>a famous, or ground breaking paper
11:58<LordAro>something "well known"
11:59<frosch123>any specific area of cs?
11:59<frosch123>donald e knuth is classic by definition
11:59<LordAro>no specific area
12:00<LordAro>i'm currently looking at this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_important_publications_in_computer_science :L
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>knuth, dijkstra, ...
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>dijkstra's rant on "GOTO" is probably a "classic text" :)
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12:12<@Alberth>moin
12:14<frosch123>planetmaker: which vm is the rigth one to test fs#5793 ?
12:15<frosch123>oh, there are more comments in flyspray
12:15<Taede>the new ps
12:15<frosch123>i guess that backtrace is sufficient
12:16<Taede>:)
12:16<frosch123>it also explains why reproducting it is luck :)
12:16<frosch123>it depends on the random order your linker assmebles the ottd binary
12:17<Taede>is it random per-machine, or per-compile?
12:18<frosch123>i have no idea in which order the linker processes the object files
12:19<frosch123>the effect depends on the initialisation order of global variables
12:19<frosch123>s/global/static/ or whatever
12:20<Taede>sounds random enough
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12:25<frosch123>Taede: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2761/ <- can you please try that one?
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12:35<Taede>trying now
12:37<Taede>seems to fail as expected
12:37<Taede>(as in, no more crashes)
12:38<@planetmaker>oi, nice :-)
12:38<frosch123>ok, let's wait for fonsinchen, whether there is something critically skipped with that patch :)
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25933 trunk/src/lang/swedish.txt (2013-10-31 18:45:10 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<@DorpsGek>swedish - 13 changes by Joel_A
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16:03<andythenorth>so I wasn't trolling about tech levels
16:11<frosch123>ask V, he might do it for you then
16:12<andythenorth>we'd need a newgrf spec addition?
16:12<andythenorth>and a patch to the core game :P
16:12<@planetmaker>first it needs be clear what and how :-)
16:13<andythenorth>of course :)
16:14<andythenorth>so I think it's per company
16:14<andythenorth>a single tech level
16:14<andythenorth>no fine-grained 'train tech level', 'industry tech level' etc
16:15<frosch123>you mean something like "date for engines"?
16:16<frosch123>you could even solve daylength with that then, if people don't mind that diesel is invented in 2100
16:17<andythenorth>yes
16:17<andythenorth>oh you missed that discussion? o_O
16:17<andythenorth>solves daylength
16:17<frosch123>well, sometimes it is better to miss a discussion
16:17<andythenorth>allows comparison across newgrfs when playing NoCarGoal type GS :)
16:17<andythenorth>allows GS to control progression
16:18<andythenorth>solved something else as well, I forget
16:18<andythenorth>logs know :P
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16:18<andythenorth>oh here http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/date/2013-10-29?page=3
16:19<andythenorth>oh it also solves the silly problems with randomised vehicle intro dates
16:23<andythenorth>vehicles could be introduced and expired against a tech level
16:23<andythenorth>so expiry could be reliable
16:23<fonsinchen>hi
16:24<andythenorth>and vehicles could depend on other vehicles for availability
16:26<@Alberth>hi fonsinchen
16:27<fonsinchen>frosch123: The patch looks good.
16:27<fonsinchen>Thanks
16:28<@Alberth>fonsinchen: I was wondering about the following: 1. Patch GetVia to break when returning 0. 2. Start a new game, and build a further unused station as the first action
16:28<@Alberth>would that be useful to try?
16:29<fonsinchen>About that game where you exhibited the bug with cargo to station 0?
16:29<@Alberth>yes, but there it would not work, as I use station 0
16:29<fonsinchen>What are you trying to achieve?
16:30<@Alberth>catching GetVia in the act :)
16:31<fonsinchen>Oh, I wouldn't worry too much about that bug from may. There were several other bugs in the mean time which might have had something to do with it
16:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r25934 trunk/src/linkgraph/linkgraphjob.cpp (2013-10-31 20:31:10 UTC)
16:31<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5793]: Do not access items from other pools in pool item destructors during pool cleaning.
16:31<fonsinchen>Remember the off-by-one error? That may also produce a 0 if the only flow is 1.
16:31<@Alberth>ok, was just pondering about it
16:36<andythenorth>hmm
16:37<andythenorth>so if I wanted a GS to be able to limit route construction (number of track pieces laid etc), that is already possible?
16:38<frosch123>currently you can only "limit" by charging money
16:39<frosch123>well, actually you could also bulldoze
16:39<andythenorth>ok, so alongside a tech level (which I think would be uncontroversial)...
16:39<andythenorth>...I am wondering about a materials level
16:39<andythenorth>which would be controversial :P
16:39<frosch123>https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/Frosch/GS_Area_Control <- would that cover it?
16:40*andythenorth reads
16:40<frosch123>it does not count pieces of track or similar
16:40<frosch123>but areas
16:40<frosch123>status of that page is btw. that i cannot think of a gs idea that would interest me to code it :p
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16:41<andythenorth>frosch123: regions would achieve same idea as material count, different methods
16:42<andythenorth>I was thinking e.g. town awards 500 tiles of track/road per year for good service
16:42<andythenorth>regions might have same gameplay result
16:43<andythenorth>I have been playing casual games with a lot of 'tinker with stuff, unlock levels and items' play
16:43<frosch123>the idea of regions was that you can define map areas, assign various properties to it, and reference it in story book and goals
16:43<andythenorth>yeah, I like them
16:43<andythenorth>just don't have a GS idea I'm burning to make
16:43<fonsinchen>frosch123: Actually, at the point where it crashes, the linkgraphjob destructor only accesses its own data. So, even though the fix is correct, it doesn't fix the actual problem ... or am I missing anything?
16:43<frosch123>it shall also be deterministic
16:45<frosch123>fonsinchen: where are the nodes stored?
16:45<fonsinchen>In fact the real problem is that the number of nodes in the linkgraph differs from the number of nodes in the linkgraphjob
16:46<fonsinchen>In two places
16:46<fonsinchen>job->link_graph.nodes
16:46<fonsinchen>job->nodes
16:46<frosch123>i thought the problem is that the linkgraph is freed before the linkgraphjob
16:47<fonsinchen>No, the problem is that LinkGraphJob::Init() may not have been called yet
16:48<frosch123>can you adjust my comment in ~LinkGraphJob then?
16:49<fonsinchen>We can only be sure that the numbers match if that is the case, so we might need a stricter criterion for stopping the constructor there. I'll check that.
16:49<fonsinchen>*destructor
16:50<frosch123>andythenorth: anyway, i don't like adding a random set of gs restrictions. i don't want gs to make the same mistake as newgrf, and adding random callbacks which affect stuf intranslaprently, causing desync trouble, ai trouble and user interface trouble :)
16:50<andythenorth>he
16:50<andythenorth>+1 :)
16:51<andythenorth>I don't think tech level is a restriction btw
16:51<frosch123>so, no callbacks, or events, just static properties
16:51<frosch123>which a gs can assign, and other can read without side effects
16:54<andythenorth>so put material count aside, because it would mean a crapload of quite intense changes to construction
16:54<andythenorth>but tech level would be an int 0-(some large value)
16:54<andythenorth>normalised against the default temperate game
16:54<andythenorth>and we'd patch ottd to incremement tech level monthly by default (GS could modify)
16:54<frosch123>i think of tech-level as an actual date
16:55<andythenorth>and we'd patch vehicle availability to look at tech level, not date
16:55<andythenorth>frosch123: one idea was simply to hide date :P
16:55<frosch123>well, you need to dispaly something in the purchase list :p
16:55<andythenorth>'need' is a strong word :)
16:56<frosch123>i assume you do not want to break the whole game
16:56<frosch123>like economy window, graphs, news, ...
16:56<andythenorth>not sure
16:56<andythenorth>maybe I do want to break it all :)
16:56<frosch123>you might also need to incorporate vehicle preview
16:57<frosch123>like disabling the default preview, and instead use gs to assign previews to companies
16:57<andythenorth>yup, that would be a smart move
16:57<frosch123>gs can ask questions as well anyway
16:57<frosch123>though not with the fance engine picture :p
16:57<andythenorth>so I didn't think this was a quick patch
16:57<andythenorth>but it might be a worthwhile one
16:58<andythenorth>I think it's more interesting than most other ponies
16:58<frosch123>i still have no seen an actual concept for a gs using it :p
16:59<andythenorth>cart, horse
16:59<andythenorth>chicken, egg
16:59<andythenorth>etc
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17:00<frosch123>you do need need an egg to make a concept of a chicken
17:00<frosch123>you only need a pencil
17:00<andythenorth>it's a perennial debate :)
17:01<andythenorth>ok, so item (1), GS that simply manages tech level to allow for longer gaps between vehicle introductions - an alternative way to solve what most people think daylength is for
17:02<andythenorth>item (2) a GS where you solve mini-challenges (deliver x amount cargo, please this town, buy 10 of engine ABC) - and the goal is solely to get tech level to ${some value}
17:04<andythenorth>item (3) 'constant decline', your tech level will fall constantly, unless you meet certain goals. If you fail, you quickly fall into a death spiral (hmm, kind of Dwarf Fortress)
17:04<fonsinchen>The real problem is that AfterLoadLinkGraphs may not be called from AfterLoadGame. Thus the threads aren't started and the jobs aren't initialized. Incidentally that also triggers a pool clean which resolves the situation
17:04<andythenorth>item (4) GS where donating to OTTD increases your tech level :P
17:04<fonsinchen>But maybe we shouldn't rely on that ...
17:05<andythenorth>note to GS authors: we need a static property 'datetime of last donation' and 'amount of last donation' and 'total donated'
17:05<andythenorth>:P
17:12<frosch123>andythenorth: decreasing tech level is hard
17:12<andythenorth>because vehicles have to disappear?
17:12<frosch123>what would it do? retire new engines, reintroduced already retired ones?
17:12<andythenorth>yes :)
17:13<andythenorth>but I appreciate the probelm
17:13<andythenorth>problem *
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17:13<frosch123>it's hard because of the reintroduction/retirement
17:13<andythenorth>ok
17:13<andythenorth>so no dwarf fortress GS :P
17:18<Zuu>I still think a Ticket to Ride inspired GS would be interesting. Giving the user a selection of quests, picking a few and if you complete them you gain points but if you didn't you lose points instead.
17:18<frosch123>oh, zuu!
17:18<Zuu>Hello
17:18<Zuu>I noticed an interesting discussion on the logs :-)
17:18<frosch123>Zuu: i added a patch to fs#5786, maybe you want to comment on the api :)
17:19<Zuu>Didn't you commit the patch attached there?
17:20<frosch123>no
17:20<frosch123>i committed a fix
17:20<Zuu>ah ok
17:20<frosch123>there is stil an api extension
17:20<frosch123>but actually also an api change
17:20<frosch123>currently passing 0 to SetGrowthRate resets it to non-custom
17:20<frosch123>but that is neither documented not unintuitive
17:21<frosch123>so, i think of removing that 0 meaning, and add a different constant insterad
17:21<Zuu>Is it possible with a GS wrapper in compat.nut to emulate the old behaviour?
17:21<frosch123>while "0" would mean as fast as possible
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17:22<frosch123>well, yes, it would be possible to retain the behaviour with compat.nut. but i actually think it's rather a bug
17:22<Zuu>Given the many Town growth GS that we have, that hidden feature may be in use.
17:22<frosch123>i don't think anyone uses it, but instead it is quite likely that someone uses a formular to compute a vaule and passes 0 without the intention to do what it does
17:23<frosch123>i don't think any town growth gs wants to reset to normal behavior tbh :p
17:24<Zuu>NAI have a in-game setting to do that. It follows the API documentation that you changed on how to make OpenTTD take back control over the towns.
17:24<frosch123>what documentation?
17:24<Zuu>IIRC, it removes all restrictions, set an advanced setting and then OpenTTD will from time to time manage towns and make town growth return to normal.
17:25<frosch123>ah, that one,
17:25<frosch123>well, i have no idea what that documentation meant
17:25<frosch123>there is no trace in ottd which would do something remotely similar
17:26<Zuu>It did seem to work when I tested the On/Off-button in NAI, but it may be that some of the steps that I do based on that documentation are not needed.
17:27<frosch123>well, i'll take a look at nai
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17:31<Zuu>Hmm, NAI do use SetGrowthRate(id, 0), but with a comment that it is made on the purpose of setting growth to 0.
17:31<frosch123>haha :p
17:31<Zuu>town.nut:562
17:33<frosch123>GSTown.SetGrowthRate(this.id, 365 * 1000); // grow every 1000 years <- 365000 is fairly out of range
17:33<Zuu>Turning off NAI is initiated in main.nut:274
17:33<frosch123>16000 is max or so
17:34<frosch123>ok, but apparantly NAI sets it to 0 with then intention to reset it
17:34<frosch123>and give control back to ottd
17:35<Zuu>So if OpenTTD takes back control too early, it is not a big problem here.
17:36<Zuu>Your change will not break it as the code was written with the assumption that it works the way it will work after your patch is applied.
17:38<frosch123>hu?
17:38<frosch123>my patch removes the behaviour for "0"
17:38<frosch123>so it breaks nai
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17:39<Zuu>hmm, oh, that line of mine that set it to 0, should set it to a large number. Its possible that I made a logic error there.
17:39<Zuu>At least from how I read the comment.
17:40<Zuu>It actually should set it to a large number and not zero.
17:40<frosch123>yeah, the comment is weird
17:40<frosch123>but i think the code does what it should :p
17:40<Zuu>Yep
17:41<frosch123>but my patch also breaks the 365000
17:41<Zuu>So by mistake I did use a feature I didn't know exist :-)
17:41<frosch123>previously the api function used a uint16, so 365000 was just casted
17:41<frosch123>now the command would fail
17:41<frosch123>so, how much of nai shall i break? :p
17:42<Zuu>The 365000 thing is something that I'll have to fix if it is an overflow.
17:42<frosch123>@calc 365000 & 65535
17:42<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
17:42<frosch123>@calc 365000 and 65535
17:42<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 65535
17:42<frosch123>@base 10 16 365000
17:42<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 591C8
17:42<frosch123>@base 16 10 91C8
17:42<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 37320
17:42<Zuu>Well, I can easily upload a new NAI.
17:42<frosch123>hmm, it should also have failed before
17:43<frosch123>well, so, add the 0 thingie to compat.nut then?
17:44<Zuu>Well, to use that code/feature that pass 365000, you need to toggle a setting in the GS and then place a sign on the town tile with a text documented in the readme. Eg. not many users will do this by mistake when just playing around.
17:45<Zuu>The 0-thingie to compat.nut may be good. I can update NAI, but I don't know which other GSes that may be affected too.
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18:00<andythenorth>bye
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18:37<@planetmaker>g'night
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---Logclosed Fri Nov 01 00:00:04 2013