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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-11-02

---Logopened Sat Nov 02 00:00:05 2013
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01:58<andythenorth>moin
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05:07<andythenorth>moin Alberth
05:07<@Alberth>hi hi
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06:05<robotboy>hello
06:05<robotboy>LordAro, I hope you didn't take the pm I sent you yesterday seriously :P
06:06<LordAro>i guessed so :p
06:06<LordAro>wasn't extremely clear though ;)
06:07<robotboy>I personaly think you are the type of user that will never get a pm like that in the future
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06:13<LordAro>ah, but i have in the past though :L
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06:20<robotboy>aw
06:20*robotboy has a looksie
06:21<LordAro>:p
06:21<LordAro>i'm not especially proud of my warning from yexo
06:22<@planetmaker>that must be some time ago...
06:23<LordAro>yup
06:23<LordAro>:(
06:23<LordAro>@seen yexo
06:23<@DorpsGek>LordAro: yexo was last seen in #openttd 48 weeks, 0 days, 21 hours, 7 minutes, and 26 seconds ago: <Yexo> <NGC3982> The station glitches are CHIPS related. I adressed it to Andy the other day, and it seems like it's b0rked in some way. <- it's still in the issue tracker for CHIPS, but I haven't had time to look at it yet
06:24<@planetmaker>that statement still is true, though :(
06:24<LordAro>:/
06:24<@planetmaker>*poof* and gone
06:25<robotboy>3 years ago.
06:25<@planetmaker>a serious case of RL
06:25<LordAro>iirc, someone said he was still active, but not here :(
06:25<@planetmaker>well. Not anywhere in TTD land
06:26<robotboy>I feel ashamed when looking at some of my first posts :P
06:26<@planetmaker>at least no-where I know.
06:26<robotboy>but I have learnt my way around the TT world since then
06:26<@planetmaker>:-)
06:27<LordAro>yes, and yes
06:27<LordAro>still no idea what i did before i found this :)
06:28<@planetmaker>nearly 6 years since I joined tt-f: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=639920#p639920
06:28*robotboy should realy learn m4nfo and do some work on the Thomas the Tank Engine set
06:29<@planetmaker>doesn't NML 0.2.x work for TTDP?
06:33<robotboy>nope. ID's are in extended format and no TTDP version can read them
06:34<robotboy>that is on the wishlist for 2.6 (for the range of IDs that TTD can use) once 2.5 gets released
06:34<@Alberth>sounds somewhat bug-ish?
06:35<robotboy>for TTDP or NML?
06:35<@Alberth>iirc NML 0.2 was intended for TTDP compatibility
06:35<robotboy>hmm, I will double check my NML version
06:36<andythenorth>hmm
06:37<andythenorth>have you provided Kamnet with newgrf usage stats from *within* ottd? :o
06:37<andythenorth>I didn't know we'd implemented a 'phone-home' API :o
06:37*Alberth didn't know either
06:38<LordAro>/o andy
06:38<andythenorth>well he has a list of the most popular grfs
06:40<andythenorth>note to self: don't reply to that thread :|
06:42<andythenorth>oops
06:42*andythenorth will regret that
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06:45<@planetmaker>andythenorth, no. I actually would like such stats, too :-)
06:46<@planetmaker>going by forum postings / irc - I recon your judgement wrt ukrs is quite right, andythenorth
06:46<@planetmaker>not sure about ships. Popular is what people find. And that is FISH
06:47<andythenorth>I just looked at Bananas
06:47<@planetmaker>only other ship set I'd consider is sailing ships. And they're complementary
06:47<andythenorth>it's the only stat we have
06:47<andythenorth>the rest is conjecture
06:47<@planetmaker>and stations: ISR has IMHO a *very* huge lead
06:47<@planetmaker>then all others come
06:48<robotboy>IN NML should introduction_date: date(1997,01,01); introduce a bus by 1 january 1998?
06:49<@planetmaker>depends on when you start your game
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06:50<@planetmaker>starting 1996, 1997 or 1998 might give you that result
06:50<andythenorth>depends on the 17-year randomisation thing too
06:51<andythenorth>(I think it's 17)
06:51<@planetmaker>actually quite wrong what I said. Starting in 1996, 1997 or 1995 will NOT give you that result. Other starting dates might
06:51<@planetmaker>starting dates vary by 0 ... 2 years ingame
06:51<robotboy>I started in 1950 at the earliest
06:51<robotboy>and cheated to 1998
06:52<@planetmaker>and it's a game thing. which also TTD does
06:53<robotboy>weel no vehicle got created in 1998 in TTDP. Now to check OpenTTD
06:54<@planetmaker>TTDP would likely have the same 2 year random range for introduction
06:55<@planetmaker>0 ... 2 years added to introduction date is wanted. By the game. And out of the hands of newgrfs
06:55<robotboy>I shall double check TTDPatch by choosing 1999
06:56<@planetmaker>you might get another date... It's random. Per game
06:56<@planetmaker>as long as the introduction date up to two years after newgrf-defined one, that's normal
06:56<@planetmaker>can be 0. can be 2
06:56<@planetmaker>decided upon map generation
06:57<@planetmaker>do the same in openttd again, you might get 1997. or 1999
06:57<@planetmaker>or again 1998
06:57<robotboy>No vehicle by 1999 in TTDPatch. I got it in OpenTTD
06:58<robotboy>TTDPatch doesn't show any GRF loading errors at the title screen
06:58<@planetmaker>well, you can check the nfo. NML does even have nfo output
06:58<@planetmaker>nmlc --nfo file.nof file.nml
06:58<@planetmaker>*nof nof* :D
06:58<robotboy>I think I shall post my full nml file to the NML thread
06:59<peter1138>nof?
06:59<robotboy>I have other issues to sort out after this
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07:06<robotboy>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=48891&p=1102236#p1102236
07:16<@planetmaker>robotboy, and if you compile https://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2771/ with grfcodec it works for you?
07:17<@planetmaker>hm, line 19 should start with 3 * 46
07:19<robotboy>is that the nfo output of nmlc for my nml file?
07:19<robotboy>I see it is
07:20<@planetmaker>no, it's not. It's using a byte-size ID instead of word-size
07:20<robotboy>ok
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07:28<robotboy>hmm, I can't seem to work out how to use grfcodec. I think I am supossed to specify grfcodec -e main.grf in the folder containing main.nfo and main.grf?
07:29<@planetmaker>you could use grfcodec -e main.grf .
07:29<@planetmaker>mind the "."
07:29<@planetmaker>if you place the nfo alongside the nml
07:31<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/main.grf
07:32<robotboy>aha. Got it to work. Now to run TTDP
07:34<@planetmaker>right, so that's the crucial thing. Good to know
07:34<robotboy>TTDP gives me a wrong .grf version error
07:34<@planetmaker>oh, yeah. I didn't use nml 0.2
07:34<robotboy>and of course OpenTTD for comparison
07:34<@planetmaker>:D
07:34<@planetmaker>stupid me
07:35<robotboy>hehe lol
07:35<robotboy>you mean to generate the nfo?
07:35<@planetmaker>yeah. But the difference doesn't exist
07:35<@planetmaker>except in grf version
07:36<@planetmaker>sprite 2 declares grf version. Change it to 2 * 141 08 07 ...
07:37<@planetmaker>I also updated the grf file in the link
07:41<robotboy>Invalid Sprite #3 (Code 4/7) is what TTDPatch gives me with the GRF from your link
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07:42<robotboy>OpenTTD gave me Unknown Action 0 property 0x5(Sprite 3)
07:42<robotboy>that was on map generation
07:46<@planetmaker>yeah, I can't write nfo
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07:47<@planetmaker>delete the FF in the first line of sprite 3
07:47<@planetmaker>grf updated
07:49<robotboy>That should be line 19
07:49<robotboy>?
07:51<@planetmaker>yeah
07:51<robotboy>and change the number of bytes as well
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07:56<@Alberth>hi hi
07:56<@planetmaker>yeah
07:57<robotboy>in TTDPatch I get the foster bus introduced in 1986 but not my bus. No Foster bus or my bus in OpenTTD both game started around 1950 and cheated to 1999
07:57<robotboy>no loading errors from either platform
07:58<LordAro>/o frosch123
07:58<robotboy>hello Alberth
07:59<@Alberth>unexpected person responded, but hi too :)
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08:05<frosch123>moin everyone :)
08:05<robotboy>was playing with NML and then nfo to get a GRF to work on both platforms :)
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08:23<robotboy>planetmaker, I think we should put nml and nfo down for the night. I may have a look at it tomorrow again if you have time to look at it any further
08:27<@planetmaker>k. If that code doesn't compile I really don't know
08:27<@planetmaker>especially w/o errors ;-)
08:28<robotboy>It compiles without errors from grfcodec or both platforms
08:28<robotboy>I think I will post the NFO in the NML thread
08:29<robotboy>I will look again in the morning
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09:11<Eddi|zuHause><robotboy> hmm, I can't seem to work out how to use grfcodec. I think I am supossed to specify grfcodec -e main.grf in the folder containing main.nfo and main.grf? <-- by default, grfcodec tries to get the .nfo from the "sprites" subdirectory, so the "." is necessary for saying "use this directory
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09:27<robotboy>aha even though I sorted it earlier
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09:38<Eddi|zuHause>i read that it worked the, i just wanted to give an explanation why
09:47<robotboy>thank you
09:55<frosch123>paths are kind of tricky with grfcodec
09:55<frosch123>for some reason it resolved path in the nfo file relative to the working dir, and not relative to the nfo file
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10:03<andythenorth>hmm
10:03<andythenorth>I can pass a method around in python, right?
10:04<@Alberth>yes
10:04<andythenorth>I probably shouldn't though
10:04<@Alberth>as part of an instance though, ie a = self.myfun a()
10:05<andythenorth>passing methods as parameters to other methods is not fun to debug :)
10:05<andythenorth>I am going to find an alternative
10:05*peter1138 delegates andythenorth to delegating the delegates.
10:05<@Alberth>depends on your taste of fun, but it's challenging :)
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10:05<Eddi|zuHause>i use functions of higher order in CETS
10:05<andythenorth>peter1138: thanks :)
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>in the for_all_vehicles function i pass a function as parameter
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>but the same thing can be done using object oriented programming
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>as the object basically is a set of functions passed along with the data
10:08<robotboy>gnight peoples
10:08<@Alberth>gn robotboy
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>so you should probably be asking a different question altogether
10:08<andythenorth>explaining the case would take a long time relative to the value of the answer :)
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>which problem am i trying to solve, and what's the most elegant/maintainable/simple solution
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>if your problem is too large to explain, you need to look for a different problem to solve :p
10:09<andythenorth>I am trying to avoid bother declaring a property (simplest option), or having too many classes (too many classes), or having spaghetti objects with lots of 'if / else' checking flags (meh)
10:10<andythenorth>it is not a very interesting problem
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>you need to read a book on design patterns
10:11<andythenorth>that's probably the worst thing I could do :)
10:11<andythenorth>I would start trying to apply inappropriate patterns
10:11<andythenorth>just to see if I could
10:13<andythenorth>the nicest way to do this would be a mixin
10:13*andythenorth goes away again
10:16<andythenorth>or a simple subclass :P
10:16<andythenorth>does a kitten die if I create another subclass?
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10:24<Eddi|zuHause>again, i think you're asking the wrong question
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10:41<andythenorth>think of the kittens though...
10:41<@Alberth>yes! no more subclasses! ever!
10:42<@Alberth>(hmm, the world may get overrun with kittens now :( )
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>don't the romanians have that problem with dogs currently?
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11:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so what question would you ask yourself? o_O
11:03<andythenorth>other than 'why is there a cat on my keyboard again?'
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>my cats try to avoid stepping on the keyboard
11:04<andythenorth>are they just polite, or did you teach them?
11:09*andythenorth baby things, bbl
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12:37<mouse4334>I'm a total openttd newbie. (I've done the tutorial though.) Is there someplace I can find a multiplayer game where I can cooperate with someone to help show me the ropes?
12:37<mouse4334>openttdcoop.org maybe?
12:37<Taede>the coop welcome server would be a good one yes
12:39<mouse4334>ok trying that
12:39<mouse4334>all the companies have passwords do I create my own?
12:40<Taede>yup
12:41<Taede>or just watch and see what the others are doing
12:41<Taede>either way, ask questions, try stuff
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12:46<mouse4334>thanks taede I'll ask further questions in-game
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13:45<andythenorth>ooh, super evil, I could call eval() on a string :x
13:45<andythenorth>maybe not :P
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>god kills ALL kittens if you do that
13:48<andythenorth>if you do it on input from a web form, god kills ALL kittens twice
13:48<andythenorth>and makes you watch
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14:03<tigeroo>Wondering if there is a way to add colors that you can use for transport companies and new face features, or know where I can find add-ons for that
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>there is a "NewCC" grf that can replace the company colours
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>and at least an "asian faces" grf
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14:07<tigeroo>know where I can find NewCC?
14:08<frosch123>it's in the ingame content download
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25936 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2013-11-02 18:45:08 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
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15:21<andythenorth>So I ended up making a subclass :( Apologies for the lost kitten.
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16:01<MNIM>murderer!
16:03<frosch123>it's no murder, if you eat them
16:04<peter1138>reredrum
16:16<andythenorth>10/8 long sprites look...interesting...on slopes
16:16<peter1138>s/interesting/bad/
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't look bad in CETS
16:34<@Alberth>s/CETS/CATS/
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16:46<Thurak>what would be good settings to use if i want lots of mountains but also to look somewhat realistic
16:47<andythenorth>there aren't any
16:47<andythenorth>ask peter1138 what happened to fixing terragenesis :)
16:47<andythenorth>you could use a height map
16:48<frosch123>mountanious, smooth, low variety, 30% water
16:49<Thurak>ok
16:49<frosch123>not tropic
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>more height levels :)
16:49<Thurak>has openttd become a lot more popular now yogscast did a few videos about a month ago
16:49<Thurak>i remember something similar happening about 2 years ago
16:49<frosch123>it increased the download rate for some weeks
16:50<frosch123>last month was about the 5th time or so
16:50<frosch123>they played two christmas, two times each or so
16:50<frosch123>but while we see the download rate, noone knows who actually plays
16:51<frosch123>who sticks with it, and who quits after 5 minutes, 1 day, 1 week, ...
16:51<Thurak>ahh, maybe lots of young people download, get confused, quit
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>well is anyone recording changes in online play?
16:51<sla_ro|master>lol
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16:51<Thurak>ive normally played in short bursts over the past 4 years or so
16:51<Thurak>ever since i started using linux
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16:52<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't played in ages
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16:52<Thurak>on my laptop atm tho so im stuck with micro$oft products...
16:52<Thurak>second hand tho, so i didnt pay for it :P
16:53<frosch123>Thurak: anyway, sips let'splay had about 2 months worth of downloads within 3 weeks
16:53<Thurak>ahh right
16:53<frosch123>so, over the year it does not really matter
16:53<frosch123>it's a noticeable peak, but not important in the long run
16:54<Thurak>i always think its nice when games that are truly free to play get attention like that
16:54<frosch123>also the way yogscast plays ottd, it does not really matter what they play :p
16:54<Thurak>lol
16:54<frosch123>they talk, the game is somewhat irrelevant
16:54<Thurak>tbh thats the case for quite a few people on youtube
16:54<ST2>yeah, frosch123 is right; many players try it... but few stay :(
16:54<Thurak>just have it running as audio while playing a game
16:55<frosch123>so, i kind of wonder about the expectations of the viewers when they decide to download :p
16:55<Thurak>ehh.... i have to go teach people how to take off in war thunder... (flight sim)
16:56<frosch123>[21:54] <Thurak> tbh thats the case for quite a few people on youtube <- yup, i watch a lot of let's play (usually not yogscast). but the way ottd is presented makes me think about the other stuff different :p
16:56<Thurak>apparently he has been failing for over 4 hours >.<
16:56<Thurak>yeah generally i watch other stuff mostly as well
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>that might be the time to read the manual :p
16:56<Thurak>lol
16:57<Thurak>turn engine on, put rudder to 10%, power up, wait.... pull up, you are in the air
16:59<Thurak>i wonder what the average age of someone that launches a ddos attack is..
16:59<frosch123>15
17:00<frosch123>middle between 12 and 18
17:00<Thurak>sounds about right...
17:00<Thurak>why would you target an online game with ddos..
17:00<frosch123>ofc only considdering hobby ddossers
17:00<frosch123>professional ones are likely older
17:00<Thurak>even if it was EA thats going too far
17:02<@planetmaker>people have easy means to vote: don't buy and don't play
17:02<@planetmaker>it's also the most effective means to vote
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22:45<Snowfyre>lots a people, so little chatting, heya!
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22:47<Eddi|zuHause>why would anyone chat at 4AM?
22:49<Snowfyre>eh, its 7:50 pm for me
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22:50<Eddi|zuHause>but 90% of this community is european
22:51<Snowfyre>ah, dang
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22:56<Snowfyre>so, what would a good, central station station look like? mine looks like this http://i.imgur.com/dAlyZ7x.png but i have traffic issues with around 20 diesel trains going through it so far the speed of monorail trains keep the traffic to a minimum
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23:18<Japa>My stations tend to become huge messes.
23:19<Eddi|zuHause>by the looks of it you should rethink the paths that trains on exit take if they need to turn around, so they don't block as many paths as they do currently. especially they should not go through the station again
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23:29<Supercheese>zomg, another user in this channel in GMT -8 timezone
23:29<Supercheese>I thought I was the only one
23:30<Snowfyre>i havent had much issues with traffic caused by trains turning around, i actually haven't tried this set up with diesel trains but before I had that cross in the track right where the 2 lanes split into 4, as for trains crossing when turning around, most of my trains seem to prefer the inner lanes
23:30<Snowfyre>heh
23:31<Snowfyre>though im thinking the preference to bein on the inside lanes is caused by this stupid placement of a station http://i.imgur.com/utGNG93.png
23:31<Supercheese>perhaps you could divert the bypass-tracks on the outside to not merge back to the mainline until they have over/underpassed the turning-around loop
23:32<Supercheese>pretty easy change, just an extra tunnel or bridge per bypass
23:33<Supercheese>that way they would also be bypassing any depot traffic
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23:34<Supercheese>in your second screen, there are too many sharp corners, those will limit train speeds
23:36<Snowfyre>i might try a tunnel bypass when traffic becomes problematic again, about the corners, where at?
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23:40<Eddi|zuHause>anything that has two curves in very short succession is too sharp
23:41<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. trains from the outer tracks into the station
23:41<Eddi|zuHause>they have two left turns and two right turns immediately after each other
23:41<Eddi|zuHause>pull the signals back one tile, and have a longer diagonal
23:41<Eddi|zuHause>makes only one left and one right turn
23:41<Eddi|zuHause>which is a special case that doesn't limit your speed
23:42<Eddi|zuHause>also, remove the signal on the entrance of the platform
23:42<Eddi|zuHause>trains should NEVER wait at that location, as they will block everything
23:46<Snowfyre>hrm cant find where that slowing turn is
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 03 00:00:07 2013