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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-11-03

---Logopened Sun Nov 03 00:00:07 2013
00:02<Supercheese>Any turns that are two 45° turns in the same direction on the same tile are bad
00:02<Supercheese>i.e. _____/
00:02<Supercheese>whoops
00:02<Supercheese> |
00:02<Supercheese>_/
00:03<Supercheese>eh, this font doesn't work well
00:03<Supercheese>http://wiki.openttd.org/Corners
00:03<Supercheese>and http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Vehicle_speeds
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00:06<Snowfyre>ah i see, its going to be a pain to fix all of those
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00:08<Snowfyre>though the majority of my tracks are straight, only time they go through those is if they are going into that station to unload, i know of a few areas i could probably change for the speed thing
00:09<Supercheese>if the sharp corners only occur right before the train enters the station, that's fine
00:09<Supercheese>trains must slow to a stop at the station anyway
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00:11<Snowfyre>yea, the sharp corners are only before and after the stations usualy, ive got a few joining tracks that can be altered to get rid of the slow down though
00:13<Snowfyre>overall this is what my track layout looks like http://i.imgur.com/wiWPIfs.png
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00:44<Snowfyre>i realy should think about getting some aircraft in my game
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00:53<Supercheese>Zeppelins ;)
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01:59<Snowfyre>just replaced everything with mag lev now redoing ll my trains and seeing just how much the speed changes things
01:39<Snowfyre>ok so, mag lev mae the slow downs painfully obvious so im going to start a new map, fixing it with trains running through it all made a realy big mess X3
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02:58<andythenorth>trying to explain the vehicle colour UI to a 3.5 year old
02:58<andythenorth>can we fix it?
02:58<andythenorth>for christmas maybe?
02:58<andythenorth>'first check that little box, then click the green so it goes white, oops, no that's yellow, you need to make it white, now choose blue'
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03:36<SpComb>./openttd --vehicle-colors=white:blue
03:36<andythenorth>I'll teach him that :)
03:36<andythenorth>way better
03:39<LeandroL>hi all
03:40<LeandroL>is anyone able to access btpro.nl?
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04:45<@Alberth>moin
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05:16<andythenorth>o/
05:20<zydeco>
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05:51<NGC3982>Guys, i noticed something fantastic
05:52<NGC3982>While recently re-visiting Roddenberry's The original series, i noticed that recall the sounds used in the episodes from other places
05:52<NGC3982>So i did some research
05:53<NGC3982>It seems like Paramount was later (or sooner) choosen to create a pack of "standard samples" for the BBC
05:53<NGC3982>Later using most, or variations of it in newer material
05:54<NGC3982>Like Dr Who and the older version of The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy TV series.
05:54<NGC3982>Mind blown.
05:54<zydeco>:o
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05:58<NGC3982>Also, not to promote piracy
05:58<NGC3982>But i found it.
06:03<peter1138>"roddenberry's the original series" cringe
06:04<NGC3982>Mm?
06:05<NGC3982>I figured busting hilights like a mf using the S word around here.
06:05<NGC3982>:-P
06:06<peter1138>'the' is a bit misplaced there.
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06:13<MNIM>peter1138: the 'The' is actually part of the series name, so it could be argued
06:14<peter1138>...
06:14<peter1138>It was called "Star Trek"
06:14<andythenorth>aren't semantics banned on Sundays?
06:15<andythenorth>oh, this isn't semantics
06:15<andythenorth>carry on :)
06:17<NGC3982>When the community refers to it as "The Original Series" and even shortens it to "TOS" (and not "OS"), i figured that was the best way to describe it.
06:17<NGC3982>Also: Kind of douchy.
06:17<NGC3982>Also: I don't think i like TOS as much as the rest of 'em. :(
06:18-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ff1f9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
06:18<andythenorth>quk
06:18<peter1138>TNG was the best.
06:18<peter1138>Then the original.
06:18<NGC3982>Andy: That's a very bad word.
06:18<NGC3982>TNG <3.
06:18<peter1138>Didn't like much after TNG.
06:19<andythenorth>NGC3982: it's the noise a lazy frosch123 makes
06:19<peter1138>And the Quantum Leap guy one... yuck.
06:19<NGC3982>andythenorth: :D
06:20<__ln__>peter1138: DS9 seasons 4..7 are actually very good.
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06:21<NGC3982>DS9 is fantastic
06:21<NGC3982>Was.
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, enterprise was... weird
06:29<NGC3982>I haven't seen it yet.
06:30<NGC3982>And i hesitate if i should even try.
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>probably not
06:33<MNIM>just as long as we're not going to talk about delancie. >.>
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06:43*NGC3982 puts stuff in __ln__
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07:05<MNIM>oh my!
07:05<MNIM>think of the children!
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07:26<NGC3982>That has been put up in __ln__ ?
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08:08<basicsquirrel>hi
08:08<@Alberth>hi
08:08<basicsquirrel>may i have a question please?
08:09<basicsquirrel>about playing ttd
08:09<basicsquirrel>i wanted to send money to an AI
08:09*Alberth gives basicsquirrel a question
08:10<basicsquirrel>thanks :)
08:10<@Alberth>usually, you just ask the question around here :)
08:11<@Alberth>hmm, I don't know how that works with AIs
08:13<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_Settings/Competitors speaks about money in multiplayer
08:13<@Alberth>euhm, is the actual question that it refuses to allow you to do so?
08:14<@Alberth>or is the question how to do that?
08:14<frosch123>i think you can only send money in multiplayer
08:14<frosch123>and you can also only send it to "clients", so only to humans
08:14<frosch123>in singleplayer yuo can use cheats to give ais money
08:17<basicsquirrel>okay. i solve the problem with cheat. thanks for help
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09:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: does CETS do anything like UKRS 'shunting' - e.g. tank engine graphics at rear of consist?
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>no
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's not compatible with variating vehicle lengths and stuff
09:09<andythenorth>I wondered that
09:09<andythenorth>dunno how pikka does it
09:09<andythenorth>could ask him :P
09:13<V453000>one of the most broken features if you ask me :P
09:14<andythenorth>V453000: have you ever thought about including 'shunting'? o_O
09:15<andythenorth>I don't why I thought to ask that, just occurred to me out of the blue...
09:15<V453000>I have no idea why would you do that
09:15<V453000>causes engines to go reverse after terminus stations?
09:15<V453000>how useless
09:15<FLHerne>V453000: Aesthetic purposes, but we already discussed those :P
09:17<V453000>having your train rather randomly flip is aesthetic?
09:18<FLHerne>V453000: No, having your train *not* randomly flip is aesthetic
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09:18<FLHerne>If I'm thinking of the same thing, it's where when a train reverses-flips it flips again in order not to appear to have flipped at all
09:19<FLHerne>And THAT is aesthetic :D
09:19<peter1138>wasn't there a patch to support properly?
09:20<frosch123>yes, it's in hg checkout 5 or so
09:21<andythenorth>why patch it, when I could write complicated nml to do it?
09:21<andythenorth>and every other set author can do the same, only different
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09:24<peter1138>and all incompatible
09:24<andythenorth>yes
09:24<andythenorth>which is the best way of course
09:24<andythenorth>newgrf sets should not be combined
09:24<andythenorth>it ruins the realism
09:26<peter1138>best not use them at all
09:26<peter1138>they're all useless
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09:26<peter1138>there's no realism so what's the point in changing stats
09:26<peter1138>we ruined ttd
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09:28<andythenorth>what is the emoticon for "I am telling lies" ?
09:29<peter1138>i'm not lying
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09:31<andythenorth>I was though
09:33<peter1138>is there a simpler way to do... where foo = bar or (foo is null and bar is null)
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10:00<Thurak>.... http://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_List this list really would have helped me a few days ago
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10:01<andythenorth>there really should be some kind of centralised service for newgrfs
10:01<andythenorth>it's insane
10:02<FLHerne_>andythenorth: Do you mean some sort of library system like the AI folks have?
10:02<andythenorth>I mean one place to get newgrfs from
10:02<andythenorth>instead of all these multiple lists and locations
10:03<FLHerne_>andythenorth: We have one of those, except for a few authors?
10:03<FLHerne_>It might be better with descriptions and images on a proper web-interface though :-)
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10:05<Thurak>where are newGRF's saved on HDD?
10:05<Thurak>im playing from the .zip
10:05<@Alberth>I doubt that, OpenTTD can't read .zip files :)
10:05<Thurak>i downloaded the .zip for the game
10:05<Thurak>instead of the installer
10:06<Thurak>and it doesnt seem that they are saved in that folder as i started a fresh one and i still have all my newGRF's
10:06<@Alberth>the readme explains in detail where stuff is searched
10:06<FLHerne_>Thurak: ~/.openttd/[content download]/newgrf
10:07<Thurak>thx
10:14<andythenorth>so let's say I have a consist made up of 4 foo engines, and some wagons
10:14<andythenorth>I want to provide special graphics for first and last foo
10:14<andythenorth>what do I do?
10:16<andythenorth>var 41?
10:16<andythenorth>or var 61?
10:16<frosch123>position in chain of vehicles with same id
10:17<andythenorth>ok, so var 41
10:17*andythenorth translates to nml :P
10:17<frosch123>but weren'T you doing nml? :p
10:17<andythenorth>yes
10:18<andythenorth>but I prefer reading the actual spec
10:18<andythenorth>explains more
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10:18<andythenorth>nml is a bit magical
10:19<frosch123>:p
10:19<andythenorth>so I'd want to count the num vehicles in the ID chain too
10:19<andythenorth>otherwise there will be unwanted results for single engine :)
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10:32<andythenorth>to find if an engine is at odd or even position, I need some clever modulo thing?
10:33<frosch123>"% 2" or "& 1"
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10:34<andythenorth>% operator does what?
10:35<andythenorth>modulo?
10:35*andythenorth is not good at basic maths
10:36<Taede>% 2 divides by 2, and gives you remainder
10:36<Taede>if remainder is 1, then the number was an odd number
10:36<Taede>if remainder is 0, then it was an even number
10:36<andythenorth>ta
10:40<andythenorth>now I have the fun problem that each 'engine' is made up of 3 articulated parts :)
10:40<V453000>lol
10:40<andythenorth>so var 41 will be totally broken for me :)
10:40<andythenorth>unusable
10:40<Taede>is it 3 parts at all times?
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>why?
10:40<frosch123>are you not using the same id for all parts?
10:40<V453000>defining switched sprites is easy
10:40<@Alberth>make a wagon also as 3 sprites :p
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>1 vs 3 makes no difference wrt oddness
10:41<andythenorth>breaks var 41 though :)
10:41<andythenorth>could use same ID for all, with lots of cb 36?
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>can't use var 61 in cb36
10:43<FLHerne_>andythenorth: Are you making an autoflipping long-vehicled smooth-cornering generic trainset? :o
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10:43<andythenorth>FLHerne: no
10:44<FLHerne>Good :D Now...which bits of that were wildly off? All of it?
10:45<andythenorth>most of it
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>autoflipping must be implemented in OpenTTD directly
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>and smooth-cornering is too difficult for andythenorth to comprehend :p (let alone the amount of work to draw it)
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11:19<andythenorth>can var 61 get the ID of a vehicle?
11:19<andythenorth>80+ maybe?
11:20<andythenorth>80+ var 46? http://marcin.ttdpatch.net/sv1codec/TTD-locations.html#_VehicleArray
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11:21<Eddi|zuHause>there was something like that, but i don't remember
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11:26<Snowfyre>o.o wow, absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about X3
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, that may be dangerous when combining grfs
11:33<andythenorth>fancy graphics are over-rated anyway
11:33<andythenorth>as is flipping engines
11:33<andythenorth>double-headed engines
11:33<andythenorth>rear lights on coaches
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11:35<andythenorth>etc
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11:38<andythenorth>V453000: do you bother with any clever graphics (other than MOAR cargos)?
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>make rear lights by recolouring?
11:39<andythenorth>I am over-stating the difficulty :)
11:39<andythenorth>rear lights can be handled by counting from rear of consist
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:40<andythenorth>wonder if livery over-rides still work for me?
11:40<andythenorth>they are bonkers, and I never understood them...but
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>don't use livery overrides
11:40*andythenorth easily convinced
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>but there's no reason why they wouldn't work
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>just they're a stupid concept
11:50<frosch123>s/stupid/deprecated/
11:56<V453000>what do you mean by clever graphics andy?
11:57<V453000>flipping trains are excellent, I even add automatic flipping for rear engines
11:57<V453000>dual head is great for some things like slugs or ships
11:57<V453000>moar cargoes is obviously key :)
11:57<V453000>rear lights are meh but cant hurt
12:01<Thurak>... test?
12:01<frosch123>the time you can spend on a discussion is inverse proportional to the amount of pixels you are discussing
12:01<Thurak>hm.. just had powercut but i still have internet
12:02<Thurak>guess its just this side of the house then
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>checked the fuses?
12:06<andythenorth>frosch123: you're right of course, but that assumes this is a rational project :P
12:07<frosch123>i thought someone would make a comparison between pixels and money now
12:08<andythenorth>anyway, I just invented a way to support flipping wth articulated vehicles
12:08<andythenorth>first the player has to build an invisible engine 'the control unit'
12:08<andythenorth>and then attach 'real engines'
12:08<andythenorth>flipping the 'control unit' causes the 'engines' to reverse their graphics
12:08<andythenorth>fun eh?
12:08<frosch123>i thought you were talking about a rational project?
12:09<Taede>is that a puzzle minigame within openttd?
12:09<andythenorth>more rationally, I'm just going to randomise some graphics forward / reversed on build
12:09<frosch123>Taede: xussr ?
12:09<andythenorth>and let the player sort it out
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>or you could just implement flipping for articulated vehicles?
12:10<Taede>not used xussr yet
12:10<frosch123>andythenorth: yeah, do it the nuts way. some slugs are randomised to go backwards
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>if you can read the (internal) vehicle id you can just flip every second vehicle
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>i was thinking of that for ICE2 type trains
12:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: flipping every second vehicle looked plausible, but you put me off with issue of other newgrfs :P
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>not every-second-in-chain but every-second-purchased
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>so they're flipped on purchase and not changed again
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>but in a deterministic way instead of randomized
12:19<andythenorth>I thought of a counter in each depot
12:20<andythenorth>either total, or just flip-flop
12:20<andythenorth>counter would be more useful
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>that won't happen
12:20<andythenorth>reasons?
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>either a variable "number of vehicles of this type in existence" or just the vehicle pool index
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>"number of vehicles in existence" would be the same as in the autoreplace window
12:21<andythenorth>per company, or global?
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>that would be per company
12:22<andythenorth>weird side effects in MP?
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>the vehicle pool index is probably global
12:23<andythenorth>weird side effects when cloning consists too :)
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>the pool index might be nondeterministic as it could fill in gaps
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>and the number of vehicles in existence must be saved somewhere in the vehicle, but there is no storage for that
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12:32<andythenorth>so randomising forward / reversed on build is good enough
12:32<andythenorth>it's a bit annoying that cloned consists don't keep the order, but that's what random means :P
12:33<andythenorth>so umm....did anyone ever request player-configurable vehicle liveries? o_O
12:33<andythenorth>per-vehicle
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>per vehicle group
12:34*andythenorth does a doodle
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>per vehicle you can do by refitting
12:38<andythenorth>only if the vehicle has cargo capacity
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>you can set capacity to 0 via cb36 after refitting
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12:46<andythenorth>small rainbow train (bottom right of depot) turns on a 'livery painting tool' https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/5539/liveries.png
12:47<andythenorth>newgrfs can also 'install' liveries
12:47<andythenorth>authors can offer reversed sprites there if wanted, with no extra code clutter
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12:49<Eddi|zuHause>exposing livery to newgrfs may cause all sorts of troubles
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>expecially with the "don't show liveries of other companies" switch
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12:51<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it is already exposed, and that switch is ignored
12:51<frosch123>but i likely missed the topic
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>how is it exposed?
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12:52<frosch123>var 44 or so
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>i thought it's only "return me 256 recolour masks and i pick the right one for the livery selected"
12:52<frosch123>nope
12:53<frosch123>i think even nuts uses 1st-cc + custom 2-nd-cc
12:53<andythenorth>I am not particularly +1 to my drawing
12:53<andythenorth>I just think it's the logical conclusion for stuff like flipping vehicles
12:53<andythenorth>which is only a visual effect
12:54<andythenorth>and other similar visual effects are sought
12:54<andythenorth>I thiink the gameplay benefits of something like tech levels would be orders of magnitude bigger than arsing around with liveries :)
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>whatever, i don't really do company colours
12:56*andythenorth faces a mercurial branch merge
12:56<andythenorth>wonder how that will go?
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>type "hg merge" and wade through the conflicts?
12:57<andythenorth>just wondering what the merge strategy is
12:57<andythenorth>merge master to branch first, or merge branch to master?
12:57<andythenorth>with git I merge master to branch first always
12:57<frosch123>usually you do not give any param
12:57<frosch123>just do "hg merge" or even "hg rebase"
12:58<andythenorth>named branches
12:58<andythenorth>hg merge finds nothing to merge
12:59<andythenorth>I guess I merge with a rev
13:00<andythenorth>no merge tool :P
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>well you give the name of the branch to merge with
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13:03<andythenorth>I can't prove it, but I think git is better at merging than hg
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>never tried
13:03<andythenorth>dunno if it's worth the hassle of switching though
13:04<andythenorth>ugh, merge conflicts only due to whitespace :D
13:04<andythenorth>joy
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13:39<Thurak>is there a simple way to calculate speed v capacity
13:40<Thurak>37T at 265kmh, or 195T at 84kmh
13:41<Thurak>the second one would carry more in a given timeframe, but you also get bonuses for transporting fast..
13:45<FLHerne>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=751674#p751674
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>there are formulas for that, but i don't know if anyone has gathered them in an easy calculator
13:45<FLHerne>Or not, considering your last statement
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r25937 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-11-03 18:45:19 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>simplified_chinese - 3 changes by siu238X
13:45<@DorpsGek>traditional_chinese - 8 changes by siu238X
13:45<@DorpsGek>greek - 9 changes by Evropi
13:45<FLHerne>Depends on the cargo ageing rate
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13:46<FLHerne>Which isn't always constant even for the same cargo, so also on the distance
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14:08<Thurak>how have i managed to get so rich with so many mistakes..
14:09<Thurak>just hit £1mill, but i think i have about 100 trucks sat there doing nothing because i forgot to refit them to iron
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14:12<Eddi|zuHause>the game is just too easy :p
14:12<MNIM>Thurak: RVs generally don't contribute much to your income in OTTD
14:12<MNIM>also, yes, ottd tends to be easy
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14:58<LordAro>MNIM: ah, but if you use eGVTS (i can never spell it) and TTRS, an extremely profitable rv only game is possible
14:59<frosch123>LordAro: it's name is "extended road vehicle and tram set"
15:00<frosch123>+generic :/
15:00<LordAro>:P
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15:03<Wolf01>hihi
15:04<@Alberth>hi hi
15:08<andythenorth>bonsoir
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16:36<Wolf01>'night
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19:47<Snowfyre>ugh, going from mg lev to steam feels so frustrating X3
19:51<Snowfyre>and turning on infrastructure maintnence costs my game is already looking bleak
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20:04<Supercheese>Well, a challenge is nice, no?
20:04<Supercheese>Often OTTD is very easy and sandboxy, which is nice
20:05<Supercheese>but some tough constraints can be fun to overcome
20:11<Snowfyre>yea, im barely survivng with 2 trains dragging water to a small town i cheated in >.> once i wasted away the remaining cheated money i found myself with less money than you start with so im sitting just under max loan with a double track line to the nearest water source
20:12<Snowfyre>infrastructure is costing me $30k a year
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20:59<Snowfyre>slowly bringing my loan down
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23:47<Snowfyre>steam trains are so slow D:
---Logclosed Mon Nov 04 00:00:13 2013