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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-11-09

---Logopened Sat Nov 09 00:00:19 2013
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01:35<@Rubidium>looks like your alarm was an hour late ;)
01:36<andythenorth>lucky me
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01:48<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25958 trunk/src/blitter/null.hpp (2013-11-09 06:48:15 UTC)
01:48<@DorpsGek>-Fix: overriding method of DrawLine was not updated when parameters were added making it non-functional
01:52<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25959 /trunk/src (script/api/script_goal.cpp vehiclelist.cpp) (2013-11-09 06:52:08 UTC)
01:52<@DorpsGek>-Fix: clang warnings; either because type safety was assumed, or because technically the wrong value was tested
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02:05<NewWorld>Hello, I'm new to this game. Can someone give me a rough guide of when I should use plane, train or truck?
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02:15<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25960 trunk/config.lib (2013-11-09 07:15:01 UTC)
02:15<@DorpsGek>-Fix-ish: make it less likely to trigger clang's hang with -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -O1
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02:18<@Rubidium>NewWorld: there isn't much of a guide, though within a small town/city trucks usually work easiest. Passengers between larger towns are usually for trains. Cargo usually trains as well, unless it is low producing (gold/diamonds/banks) where trucks come into play. Planes are when you want long distances where a railroad network is hard to create, and in the earlier days when trains are relatively slow. Helicopters are for passengers to oil rigs
02:18<Supercheese>NewWorld: Generally, use airplanes for long-distance passenger transport, use trucks/buses for very short distance transport, use trains for medium-long distance, large volume transport, and use ships for oil rigs and extremely high volume transport
02:21<NewWorld>Thanks a lot to the both of you!
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02:22<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that comment in the python discussion is totally wrong. You learn walking without much support, by falling a lot and tiny steps, ergo... you learn programming by starting with assembler without manual. Then as your technique improves you start aiming for higher level languages (i.e. for walking or programming something faster)
02:23<@Rubidium>which is exactly why lots of old people are using things like COBOL (they can't walk fast anymore)
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04:29<NewWorld>Wow, this local authority is an idiot! Won't let me build because my transportation services are bad, well how am I supposed to improve them if you won't let me expand the station?!
04:29<NewWorld>...geniuses on this authority
04:30<LordAro>realism :p
04:35<Supercheese>again, realism
04:37<Supercheese>'night all
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04:48<@Alberth>NewWorld: just let them be, and come back in a decade :)
04:49<NewWorld>Yeah or cut off the train completely. They'll be begging to come back, having a 3k queue for buses >:D
04:50<@Alberth>not really, they don't mind long queues, as long as buses come along regularly :)
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04:53<NewWorld>Well if they're hapy with that, maybe my ratings wil go up
04:54<@Alberth>iirc check the ratings of the station itself; if that's ok, it will resolve itself
04:54<@Alberth>but I usually don't bother with pax, too much trouble, and no interesting chains of transports
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05:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25961 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2013-11-09 10:45:05 UTC)
05:45<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5779]: [NewGRF] A powered rail type implies it is compatible as well, but some NewGRF didn't state that causing the path reservation code to bail out in some cases because there wasn't a compatible path
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07:52<NewWorld_>Hello, If I send my trucks to the depot will I still be paying road running costs? Is there a way to not pay these costs without selling the road vehicles?
07:53<@planetmaker>if you just own a car you also are required to pay tax for it.
07:53<@Alberth>no idea, stop a truck in a depot, and watch the costs it makes
07:55<NewWorld_>Oh I didn't know each vehicle lists it's own running cost, thanks
08:02<NewWorld_>Yeah you still have to pay for them
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08:04<Wolf01>hi hi
08:05<@Alberth>I know the train newgrf by Pikka varies running cost depending on speed, don't know whether that can be done with RVs too, and whether such a newgrf exists
08:05<@Alberth>hi hi Wolf01
08:05<@Alberth>less rainy today? it's nicely sunny here
08:06<Wolf01>here it will rain endlessy until monday
08:08<MNIM>Alberth: doesn't egrvts do this?
08:08<@Alberth>MNIM: if you say so, I hardly ever use RVs, too limited capacity
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>stopped vehicles don't cause any costs
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>(note that "stopped" is something different from "waiting at 0km/h")
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08:18<MNIM>Alberth: ehh, I usually use the trams and sometimes bigger movers from egrvts when I feel like it
08:18<MNIM>the trams can have capacities rivaling smaller trains
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08:20<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: yes, but that argument is void if you don't transport passengers ever :p
08:23<@Alberth>andy is a big fan of trams to transport cargo :)
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08:43<MNIM>Eddi|zuHause: ehhh.
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: i'm refering to this: <Alberth> but I usually don't bother with pax, too much trouble, and no interesting chains of transports
08:46<MNIM>I know. just don't get why you would want to play without pax
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know either. every time i tried to focus on cargo, i ended up with passengers anyway, and then they demand 90% of your attention
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>and in the past 5 years i played with 4 different flavours of destinations
08:49<@Alberth>with destinations the difference is smaller
08:50<@Alberth>without destinations, you have chains of industries, you bring iron ore to steel factory, bring steel to factory, bring food to houses
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's why i never really played a game without destinations anymore
08:51<@Alberth>changing one part of that chain means your entire network is changing
08:52<@Alberth>with destinations it gets more complicated with industries, as each cargo has its own ideas where it wants to go, but the chain is still also there
08:52<@Alberth>I haven't figured out how to handle that :)
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>that's why you can turn off destinations for cargo :)
08:52<@Alberth>nah :)
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>there are limited ways to tweak cargodist so your chains are optimally serviced
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>one way is to only offer point-to-point connections without any choice in destinations
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>another is to change the distance factor
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>but that one is global, so may cause issues at the other end of your network
09:02<@Alberth>I still have issues even without tweaking :p
09:03<@Alberth>although a lot of them are about growth of raw industry output
09:04<@Alberth>Currently I am playing with NUTS, which has nice transport capacities, but no simple way to manage transport of several cargoes in the same train
09:04<@Alberth>you can have fixed layout of the wagons, but that's sub-optimal
09:05<@Alberth>I was wondering whether auto-refit would help here
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09:05<@Alberth>that way you can make a general backbone doing distance transport, and local trains to serve industries
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09:06<@Alberth>currently I have different trains for each type of cargo, which gets messy to manage
09:06<andythenorth>autorefit is too buggy to use
09:07<andythenorth>buggy / spec is a bit off (with respect)
09:07<andythenorth>I tried doing backbone transport using autorefit and cargodist
09:08<@Alberth> Transport, 2004-10-30.sav
09:08<andythenorth>it's totally unworkable
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>i have not played yet since autorefit was introduced
09:10<Japa_>Anybody know where I can find an example of a game where >75% of all towns are connected with cargodist?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB, although that is YACD, not CargoDist)
09:11<Japa_>Close enough, and thanks
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09:13<MNIM>by contrast my games are much simpler :P
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>so... how do i sensibly update grfcodec?
09:15<@Alberth>hg pull -u ; make ?
09:15<@Alberth>or does that fail for some reason? I haven't tried it for some time
09:15<LordAro>package manager update ?
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have a checkout
09:16<@Alberth>lots of red links :p
09:17<@Alberth>nice thing about pax is that you can build a single large network, as you only have one type of "cargo"
09:19<Japa_>I it bad that I try to press X when viewing screenshots?
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>happens to me all the time :p
09:19<@Alberth>andythenorth: what newgrf has autorefit?
09:20<@planetmaker>ogfx+trains, Alberth
09:20<@Alberth>:o nice!
09:21<@planetmaker>imho one of the most under-used features in general :-)
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09:21<Eddi|zuHause>> hg clone
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>Abbruch: HTTP Error 502: Bad Gateway
09:21<krinn>hi guys,
09:21<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yes
09:22<krinn>what are limit to GSStoryPageElement? after creating some, openttd drop displaying them
09:23<@planetmaker>sorry for the inconvenience. hgweb is ... a pita
09:24<MNIM>Japa_: I frequently have similar experiences, so now
09:25<andythenorth>Alberth: new FISH has autorefit, and some of HEQS. Also UKRS 2
09:25<andythenorth>it's quite broken
09:25<andythenorth>but enjoy :)
09:25<MNIM>Alberth: I know, that was the first time trying out cargodist (on a running game, too)
09:26<@Alberth>MNIM: it's only 1948, a lot can still happen :)
09:26<@Alberth>but I agree CD takes getting used to
09:26<MNIM>yeah, I think it broke that game though
09:27<@Alberth>not sure, pax always come in large quantities. Even without CD it's hard to get rid of them
09:27<MNIM>since I was having all my trains running at a (sizable) profit, yet my train running costs in the overview screen was about equal to train income
09:27<@Alberth>with CD most of them travel with 2 trains, doubling the needed capacity
09:27<MNIM>and funnier still, my RV income was about equalt to that of the trains
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, don't activate CD mid-game
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>it's problematic enough to handle when it grows with your network
09:29<@Alberth>thanks andy, and yeah, I have to try it to understand how it's broken :)
09:30<andythenorth>Alberth: it's broken wrt orders
09:30<andythenorth>and it doesn't work unless you turn on the setting 'distribute cargo to stations even when there is no demand' or so
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09:31<andythenorth>then you will have a lot of cargo waiting at stations :)
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, starting up a service won't create links for all cargos
09:31<@Alberth>ok, pretty much very broken thus :p
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>only those which were already refitted before
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09:32<andythenorth>iirc autorefit is broken without cdist too
09:32<andythenorth>I tested it
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09:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r25962 /trunk/src/video/cocoa ( (2013-11-09 14:47:03 UTC)
09:47<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r25951): [OSX] Do the SDK version test the proper way 'round.
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09:58<TrueBrain>in like 1 minute all cnnections to will be reset; please make sure you have nothing active that cannot be interrupted to :D (unlikely, but I thought you might wanted to know :P)
09:59*krinn will stop his script kiddy ssh attack on so
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>it's not like 1 minute would be an appropriate warning time in such a case :p
10:00<@Alberth>enough to warn TB you're busy :)
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>if you check IRC within that minute...
10:00<TrueBrain>and there goes all the connections
10:00<TrueBrain>rebooting main gateway machine :)
10:01<LordAro>that was 1 min, 49 secs :p
10:01<TrueBrain>complains can be filled with planetmaker
10:01<@planetmaker> > /dev/null
10:01<LordAro>TrueBrain: why are you rebooting the machine?
10:01<LordAro>(vaguely interested)
10:02<TrueBrain>kernel upgrade of the gateway machine
10:02<LordAro>woo, upgrades :)
10:02<TrueBrain>the only machine where EVERY connection runs via
10:04*LordAro still hasn't got 3.12
10:04<LordAro>why are arch devs being so slow in pushing it to repos? :L
10:04<krinn>busy wanking with systemd?
10:05<LordAro>D: systemd works fine, thank you very much
10:05<TrueBrain>k, everything should be routed correctly again
10:05<LordAro>working fine here :)
10:08<TrueBrain>anyone with IPv6 enabled around?
10:09<krinn>i'm french, tooked us 10 years to goes from minitel to internet, IPv6 lmao, yes, the next decade maybe
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10:10<LordAro>TrueBrain: i have someone probably willing to do some testing, what do they need to do, just ping it?
10:10<TrueBrain>well, wanted to ask if someone could see if the masterserver still works on IPv6 :)
10:10<TrueBrain>often gives issues after updates, so I thought I check before someone complains :P
10:10<TrueBrain>(so ingame requesting the server-list, basically :))
10:10<LordAro>damn, they only have a server
10:10<TrueBrain>but nevermind; if it doesnt work, someone will complain soon enough :)
10:11<LordAro>probably :)
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc ERROR: "src/gfx_front_vehicle_5.gnml", line 164: Unrecognized identifier 'pruss_S4_0slice_set_0' encountered
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>Included from: "<stdin>", line 7
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>not very useful...
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10:15<Eddi|zuHause>something missing to detect the "base" file?
10:18<@Alberth>what does cpp give as output?
10:18<@Alberth>I wouldn't be surprised if it uses that as filename for stdin
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>this is the start of the file:
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>so am i missing a parameter to cpp?
10:21<@planetmaker>using stdin. you might want to call cpp differently:
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10:22<@planetmaker>gcc -C -E -nostdinc -x c-header -o file.nml file.pnml
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>i think this is the current line: scripts/Makefile_nml: $(_V) $(CC) -C -M -MF $@ -E -MT $@ - < $<
10:23<@planetmaker>I changed that in newer Makefiles
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>so what's the new line?
10:25<@planetmaker>not sure that all variables are defined with CETS
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i doubt that line works
10:25<@planetmaker>make-nml basically is a rewrite
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10:28<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: the - < near the end looks like it redirects from stdin
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>actually this is the relevant line: scripts/ $(_V) $(CC) -I. -I./src/ -D REPO_REVISION=$(REPO_REVISION) $(CC_FLAGS) $< > $@
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10:28<Eddi|zuHause>and this one doesn't have a <
10:31<@Alberth>assuming CC is the compiler, it runs all kinds of magic command lines, which you can probably query
10:31<@Alberth>wouldn't it be easier to use cpp instead?
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>urgh, it's always worse than you think
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>scripts/Makefile.def:CC_FLAGS ?= -C -E - <
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>there's the < hidden
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>which idiot wrote that? :p
10:42<@planetmaker>tralallalala :-)
10:42<@planetmaker>it's configurable
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10:46<Eddi|zuHause>all this trouble just to find something that is probably a missing #endif
10:49<@Alberth>I once started adding a template expansion mechanism into nml, but got distracted by all the stuff that was added to the scanner/parser
10:50<@Alberth>eg iirc it gets the input text twice
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10:51<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc ERROR: "./src/gfx_front_vehicle_5.gnml", line 164: Unrecognized identifier 'bav_BBII_0slice_set' encountered
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>Included from: "src/bav/BBII.gnml", line 5
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>whatever your potential template did, CETS would probably have broken it :p
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11:43<juzza1>I'm doing this to disable CC recolouring of vehicles: colour_mapping: PALETTE_USE_DEFAULT
11:43<juzza1>can someone explain why that works?
11:44<juzza1>or what is happening when that colour mapping is used
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11:45<juzza1>heh, must be
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12:42<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: so the 502 now turned into a 404, is that still "maintenance"?
12:42<@planetmaker>kinda in the process of replacing hgweb...
12:43<@planetmaker>thinking about switching it all to rhodecode
12:43<@planetmaker>solves a lot of issues at once. But needs solving some as well ;-)
12:44<@planetmaker>one of them: authentication ;-)
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12:53<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, if you currently need access, I could give you ssh access to repos
12:53<@planetmaker>that works
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>it's not life-or-death :p
12:54<^Spike^>...... you made me work to fix it... now you shall use it!!! :D
12:54<^Spike^>never make an IT guy who already has been working 2 saturdays cause of standby angry on his third saturday he hopes to do nothing :D
12:57*Alberth quickly uses ssh to update grfcodec
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>whenever TrueBrain is angry, he kicks random people :p
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12:59<TrueBrain>now I am just tempted to op Spike and see what he does
12:59<TrueBrain>curious thing to try ...
12:59<@planetmaker>@op ^Spike^
12:59-!-mode/#openttd [+o ^Spike^] by DorpsGek
12:59<@planetmaker>like that? :D
12:59<@planetmaker>was thinking the same, TrueBrain ;-)
13:00<TrueBrain>now we just sit and wait for the kick
13:00<@planetmaker>tumdidum :D
13:00<@Alberth>pom tie pom
13:01<TrueBrain>I think he is too scared
13:01<LordAro>what's wrong mcspike, you chicken?
13:01<@planetmaker>sounds like an offer
13:01<@Alberth>more like an easy target :p
13:02<@planetmaker>an offer as target ;-)
13:02*krinn think ^Spike^ have no balls
13:02<@^Spike^>/mode #openttd +b *!*@*
13:02<@^Spike^>damn shift ;)
13:03<@^Spike^>wasn't at my computer actually
13:03<TrueBrain>lolz :D
13:03<@^Spike^>as said... trying to relax :)
13:03<@^Spike^>10 and 14 hour saturdays are no fun actually... :)
13:03<TrueBrain>so now have some fun and kick some random people :D
13:03<@^Spike^>specially if the 14 hours one should've been 0 if a collegue did his work :)
13:03<TrueBrain>always made me feel better :P
13:04*^Spike^ needs ircop for the best fun then :D
13:04<krinn>^Spike^, are you saying it's not fun to be slave ?
13:04<@^Spike^>krinn it's fun to do my job... i enjoy it... but not when some lazy ass doesn't do his
13:04<@^Spike^>aka responding to monitoring saying: Hey idiot your backup storage is full for 10 hours already!
13:08-!-mode/#openttd [-o ^Spike^] by ^Spike^
13:08*krinn i would have removed planetmaker status instead
13:13<@planetmaker>webster likes me hopefully, though :-)
13:14<@planetmaker>or dorpsgek here :D
13:15<krinn>not quiet sane to be loved by machine
13:20<krinn>is there a lenght limit to a string in lang file ?
13:20<krinn>ie: should i do 3 STR_ or can go with 1xSTR_this{}this{}this...
13:21<@planetmaker>the latter is done especially for the help strings rather often
13:23<krinn>ok thank you
13:24<krinn>lol __ln__ vital stuff
13:24<krinn>love the fade desktop and display message to the cat
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>luckily, i don't have that problem :)
13:36<krinn>i use the "close the door" program to stop my cat doing that
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>my cats don't step on the keyboard
13:39<Tulitomaatti>either your keyboard or cats are special ^
13:39<krinn>my step on, because he love to touch screens
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>it works with multiple cats and multiple keyboards...
13:40<krinn>Tulitomaatti, it helps adding spikes on keys
13:43<@Alberth>buying a non-flat keyboard helps too
13:43<TrueBrain>planetmaker: DorpsGek only loves you as much as I tell him to :D (bit late reply, but meh :P)
13:50<^Spike^>TrueBrain pm is used to late replies he also gets that with me :D
13:50<^Spike^>sometimes i respond 2 days later to his questions :D
13:50<TrueBrain>what you two do in the bedroom is none of my business :P
13:56<@planetmaker>no need to be envious, TrueBrain. I love you, too. And I don't tell anyone either! ;-)
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14:00<@Alberth>o/ welcome to this LOVEly channel
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20:29*Supercheese needs more bits in the map array
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20:32<Eddi|zuHause>that's fairly easy. but you better have a good reason
20:32<Supercheese>Oh, I have a terrible reason
20:32<Supercheese>I'm trying to add patches to the New Map Features patch
20:33<Supercheese>which is almost a complete fork to begin with
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20:50<krinn>that link isn't complete: just saw a {CARGO_LIST} that isn't in it, where can i get full one?
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20:51<Eddi|zuHause>it has probably not been updated
20:52<krinn>how do translators ?
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>translators don't really have to care, they just have to copy the same that are in the original string. the only thing they can do is rearrange stuff and add plural forms etc.
20:56<krinn>ah, any chance they are all define in the same file then ? :)
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes. try src/string.cpp or something
21:09<krinn>src/strings.cpp nearly good catch :)
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 10 00:00:23 2013