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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-11-11

---Logopened Mon Nov 11 00:00:22 2013
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08:47<Nekomaster>Woah, where did all you people come from?
08:47<Nekomaster>Last time I was on the IRC there was very few people
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08:49<Nekomaster>So anyone alive/awake?
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, how can that happen?
08:50<V453000>I think it is evil Eddi
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08:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's the only error of that kind
08:51<V453000>my elaborate diagnosis clearly points at evil matter
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>and it was fine yesterday
08:51-!-zeknurn [] has joined #openttd
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>and i didn't touch that part at all
08:51<Nekomaster>You know, I wonder why we continue to make ourselves suffer with coding in NFO/NML when we could just have text files with much simpler layouts/coding
08:52<Nekomaster>Rather then use complicated C++ like coding and commands, why not just have text files with the vehicle stats and code for the sprites and offsets?
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>you do realize that my set consists almost exclusively of ?
08:54<Nekomaster>the link keeps loading
08:54<Nekomaster>ok it loaded
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>that's all there is, except for the images
08:55<juzza1>Nekomaster: do a lot more than just stats + graphics, i dont really understand what you are trying to say
08:55<juzza1>+newgrfs do
08:55<Nekomaster>What I ment is, have the stats like Power, speed, weight, traction, etc, plus any switches like "Articulated" or "Dual headed", in plane and simple english
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>Nekomaster: that's EXACTLY what i do in that link
08:58<Nekomaster>Name : "EMD F-Unit" // Introduction : 1942 // Life : 30 // Decay : 20 // Weight : 120 // Speed : 104 // Sprite : EMD_F_Unit.png
08:58<Nekomaster>something like that, but perhaps each a seperate line
08:59<juzza1>thats how you input stats in NML
08:59<Nekomaster>And in case I havent made my self clear, I'm talking about making it easier to add vehicles to OpenTTD
08:59<Nekomaster>Nu-uh, I've looked at NML, its much more complicated then what I just posted
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>Nekomaster: it won't get any easier than that table above
08:59<Nekomaster>I wasn't talking about tracking tables
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>Nekomaster: it's not a "tracking table", it's the whole set. just press a button (or two) and it creates a newgrf
09:00<juzza1>example of a very simple wagon in NML:
09:01<juzza1>never mind the ugly aligment
09:01<Nekomaster>I tried NML and I still don't understand it after looking at those NML tutorials
09:01<V453000>trying to code it helps (:
09:02<V453000>the code is quite trivial tbh
09:02<Nekomaster>when I took programing in high school that was more understandable then NML setup
09:02<V453000>sounds seriously strange
09:02<Nekomaster>although NML is much less complicated then NFO, I still can't wrap my head around it
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i think nforenum has an issue with sprite 65536
09:02<Nekomaster>Visual Basic and C++ was much easier then NML
09:04<juzza1>maybe it would be more helpful if you tried to go through each step in the tutorial, and then ask if you dont understand something particular
09:04<blathijs>Isn't the reason that NML is complicated that it has to be compile to newgrf/nfo, which is just a fairly limited format compared to regular programming languages / machine code?
09:05<Nekomaster>but couldn't we just make a compiler that takes a plain english set up and translate it to GRF format for openttd/ttdp
09:05<juzza1>NML is that, it doesn't get any easier if you want to use all of the newgrf features
09:06<V453000>make it :)
09:06<V453000>NML is easy as hell
09:06<Nekomaster>I have an example of a mod file from a content pack I'm making for flans mod for Minecraft
09:06<V453000>Difference from NML?
09:06<Nekomaster>Why can't we have something like this instead of complex NML coding where everything has to be a certain way with funky commands and such
09:06<V453000>Speed: 120;
09:07<V453000>idk how that is a funky command
09:07<Nekomaster>I dunno how to explain it any better
09:07<Nekomaster>last I looked at NML it looked more like C++ programming code
09:07<V453000>also perhaps sometimes it could be useful to define the speed by some conditon like a switch thingy
09:08<V453000>I dont think wiriting NML is not even coding
09:08<V453000>just filling train values really
09:08<Nekomaster>I still dont understand it
09:08<Nekomaster>like I said I looked at the tutorials they have for NML
09:08<V453000>like I said, tutorials wont solve anything you have to try to code the thing
09:09<juzza1>yeah if you just read it and don't write any code, you won't learn a thing
09:09<Nekomaster>I did try to code, I tookt he example road vehicle thing and tried to change the name and give it a different sprite and it didn't work
09:09<V453000>I dont get how could you do that wrongly
09:09<Nekomaster>Only thing I've managed in NML is the NML-Categories system that I made
09:09<V453000>but well, resigning probably isnt very constructiev either :)
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09:11<Nekomaster>I don't want to resign though, with the way OzTrains has coded the canadian trainset, I'm getting kinda irritated that he's made it so restrictive
09:11<V453000>who cares about simuscape trash :)
09:12<V453000>but yeah getting pissed off at other graphics is very good in order to get yourself to code something :D
09:12<V453000>how do you think NUTS started
09:12<Nekomaster>I'm looking at the NML for nuts and nothing makes sense to me
09:12<Nekomaster>this is why I hate NML just as much as I do NFO
09:13<V453000>well nothing will make sense automatically obviously
09:13<juzza1>it's all in one file so you can't understand it quickly
09:13<V453000>idk I have a lot more problems with understanding multi-file than one file if I am a starter
09:14<V453000>all you do for e.g. a train: 1: define sprites, 2. load sprites in the item thingy - and define stats at item thingy
09:14<blathijs>Nekomaster: Can you point out something specific that does not make sense to you?
09:14<V453000>extra things like spritegroup for loading stages, specific switch for graphics, etc
09:14<Nekomaster>the use of strings to define commands for certain things
09:14<V453000>blathijs: nuffin :p
09:15<blathijs>Nekomaster: Looking at the NML format, it looks pretty much like it's mostly property: value pairs, so I guess that part is clear?
09:15<Nekomaster>I can see that but I can't clearly see where vehicles are and other parts of code are
09:16<blathijs>(disclaimer, I never worked with NML, so I'm just trying to get the problem defined more clearly, I probably can't solve it :-p)
09:16<Nekomaster>*sigh* why can't I ever understand anything complex...
09:16<V453000>all I can say for now is that I might write a starter guide to newGRF creation during christmas holidays
09:17<Nekomaster>It would be nice to have a simple step by step guide that shows how to make a couple vehicles rather then just one
09:17<V453000>wait what
09:17<V453000>couple vehicles = copypaste one?
09:17<Nekomaster>thats another problem with the tutorials, they only tell you how to do one, and not multiple vehicles
09:17<V453000>wtf :D
09:18<Nekomaster>Last time I checked you need more code for mutliple vehicles then just a single vehicle
09:19<V453000>like how about to take code of one vehicle and copypaste it
09:19<V453000>you got two suddenly
09:19<Nekomaster>i didn't mean like that
09:19<V453000>obviously you dont need to copypaste e.g. sprite templates but yeah
09:19<V453000>well you might not have meant it that way but that is pretty much how you do it :D
09:19<Nekomaster>this doesnt help that I'm trying to quit smoking and have anger problems
09:20<V453000>I dont get how do you get an anger problem when trying to ctrl+c ctrl+v
09:20<Nekomaster>and i dunno what it is but I can't wrap my head around complex things till someone breaks it down
09:20<V453000>this isnt a complex thing
09:21<Nekomaster>the copypasta isn't the problem, its the coding part
09:21<V453000>well, having coded one vehicle successfully means you can do multiple
09:21<V453000>so I dont understand how is multiple vehicles the problem
09:21<Nekomaster>Where can I get a gun?
09:21<Nekomaster>to shot my self
09:22<V453000>draw a gun then code it, use it later
09:22<Nekomaster>I can do that for minecraft, at least making a content pack for Flan's mod is MUCH MUCH easier then coding NML
09:23<V453000>well then perhaps minecraft has less properties and stuf than openttd
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09:24<Nekomaster>yes, but what I'm getting at is with the simpiler system I've been using to make content for Flans Mod, I dont get why we can't do something like what I posted, but with OpenTTD values and such
09:24<V453000>do it, who stops you
09:25<Nekomaster>I don't know C++ so how can I make a program that translates plain english to GRF files?
09:25<V453000>learn C++ ?
09:25<V453000>or idk whatever do you need for that
09:25<Nekomaster>Not so easy when you have a brain that shuts down looking at anything big and complex
09:26<V453000>perhaps start from the smaller things
09:26<Nekomaster>Big mess > shutdown, NML coding > shutdown, Lots of sprite work to do > shutdown
09:26<Nekomaster>Thats why I'm saying we need a step-by-step tutorial on how to code a NML vehicle set
09:27<V453000>look, I managed to code vehicles, that means anybody can do it
09:27<Nekomaster>I can't continue making my Generic Australian Rail Set, make my own North American Train Set, or continue the North American Road Vehicle set with GRF Maker, and currently NML just goes over my head
09:28<blathijs>Nekomaster: I still don't really understand what is the fundamental difference between NML and the minecraft stuff you posted, other than that you apparently don't understand parts of NML and somehow didn't manage to get two vehicles in NML (even though people here seem to agree that just copy-pasting the same code once more, perhaps changing some id values, should work)
09:28<V453000>I will send you a short example ofa vehicle with comments if you are around during some evening and remind me about it
09:28<blathijs>Nekomaster: In essence, both seem to be property+value lists
09:28<V453000>european evenings that is
09:28<V453000>but yeah as blathijs sez
09:28<Nekomaster>thats another problem, nobody ever comments the NML code in the tutorials
09:29<blathijs>Nekomaster: It seems that the MC stuff uses multiple files (I think), where an NML file uses multiple blocks, but that's just a detail
09:29<Nekomaster>so I don't understand what commands\values do
09:29<blathijs>Nekomaster: You do know there is a reference for all properties?
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09:29<DanMacK>Hello all
09:29<juzza1> full of comments, everything explained etc. I personally started NML from that
09:30<blathijs>juzza1: Yeah, the comments aren't too bad either there
09:30<blathijs>Nekomaster: and in particular
09:30<Nekomaster>Yeah thats the page I went to to learn NML
09:31<Nekomaster>I spent a day on that and only figured out enough to make that NML-Category system I made
09:31<Nekomaster>which is probably buried in the forums now
09:53<Nekomaster>btw, how are offsets handled? Do they define the position of a sprite and the center/one of the corners or something like that?
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>the anchor point is the back (hidden) corner of the bounding box
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>if you have newgrf developer tools enabled, press ctrl+b to see the bounding box
09:57<Nekomaster>ungh.... and now my motivation to learn NML is dead because I just remembered how much work goes into the offsets and sprite positions and all that stuff
09:57<Nekomaster>*smashes head off desk repeatedly*
09:58<Nekomaster>I'd rather be doing pixel art and have a reliable coder then have to code everything my self as well
09:58<Nekomaster>enjoy what?
09:58<Nekomaster>what is there to enjoy?
09:59<V453000>why do it if you dont enjoy it
09:59<V453000>ps, once you get a template to work you can use it allll the time
09:59<Nekomaster>I enjoy pixel art, I don't enjoy coding
09:59<V453000>soo there isnt that much terrible offset stuff
09:59<V453000>idk, I honestly dont understand how can someone only draw e.g. vehicles
09:59<V453000>it just fits together, I dont want to rely on anyone else to make it work
10:00<frosch123>"I have a 100/10Mbit connection (yeah, only 10Mbit up). Could this be sufficient for a 100-150 player server?" <- what game is he taking about?
10:00<Nekomaster>Good for you
10:00<Nekomaster>it must be nice being rich or living in europe
10:00<V453000>well yeah
10:00<Nekomaster>but as you can see here I don't think i'm too bad with spriting
10:01<V453000>quite ugly tbh, not much contrast
10:01<V453000>try harder :P
10:01<Nekomaster>I don't know how to apply more contrast without things being too bright
10:01<V453000>I always use all 8 shades of colours
10:02<V453000>otherwise you just arent using the palette fully
10:02<V453000>-> less contrast, dull looking stuff
10:02<Nekomaster>I give up
10:02<Nekomaster>I dont even know why I try sometimes
10:02<V453000>presumably because you want to reach some result
10:02<V453000>which probably wont happen by giving up :P
10:03<V453000>I redrew every sprite for nuts at least once to improve it, for comparison
10:03<Nekomaster>I give it my best and people are always better to the point I dont even know why i try
10:03<V453000>it just takes effort, just like most other constructive things do
10:03<Nekomaster>also, right now... I havent sprited in years
10:03<V453000>that doesnt sound like much effort
10:03<V453000>I draw sprites almost every day
10:03<Nekomaster>ive gotten rusty and ive lost all motivation to do spriting yet I want to
10:04<Nekomaster>I use to draw sprites when I was in class during high school
10:04<Nekomaster>some of my best work was during class
10:04<Nekomaster>I hate how everything feels so blah and boring now.... wtf is wrong with me
10:05<V453000>I am afraid I cant help you with that
10:05<Nekomaster>no one seems to be able to help me with that
10:05<V453000>I can give you hints what to improve so you could build on that :) but that is about it
10:05<Nekomaster>it would seem im going to live the rest of my life bored
10:06<Nekomaster>so bored and unmotivated i'd rather die
10:06<V453000>enjoy :)
10:07<Nekomaster>enough of that
10:07<Nekomaster>I do not enjoy being bored
10:07<V453000>then go do something else lol :D
10:07<Nekomaster>do what
10:08<Nekomaster>everything is boring, nothing has that draw that some things use to have
10:08<V453000>beer and tits never gets old
10:08<Nekomaster>I use to be crazy about openttd and simcity and fallout 3, but now all that is boring
10:09<Nekomaster>I'm broke and I live in canada, strip clubs are almost non-existant around where i live
10:09<V453000>I didnt say strip clubs ...
10:09<V453000>I believe it will be easy to get a pair of boobs with your expression of enjoyment about everything
10:09<Nekomaster>well you said tits so I assumed you ment a strip-club
10:10<@planetmaker>strip club comes from stripes, yes? Like,400,400,,,,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,0,0,0 ?
10:10<V453000>all im saying is man the fuck up and go do something you like :)
10:10<Nekomaster>even if I tried getting a girl right now I think I'd bore them to death
10:10<Nekomaster>Theres many things I like, everything has lost its luster
10:11<V453000>pm that looks dangerous :D
10:11<Nekomaster>I dont even know what happened, after about a year of being out of school lif got boring
10:11<V453000>We probably wont be able to help you with that Nekomaster sooo yeah
10:11<Nekomaster>I know
10:11<Nekomaster>i guess i should just shut up then...
10:12<V453000>grab a beer, start the cheer
10:12<Nekomaster>I wish I could have some beer or a joint.... but I'm so broke that we're short on rent this month by 27 dollars
10:12<Nekomaster>and its not like theres much work around here for a 21 year old without experience
10:13<Nekomaster>Infact when I had a job for a short while earlier this year... that was more fun then coming home and sitting on my computer
10:14<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: congratulations?!?
10:15<Nekomaster>And then public transport had to ruin it for me
10:15<NGC3982>While having the worst rating possible in a given town, does it -ever- help to bulldoze areas and re-plant trees?
10:15<Nekomaster>being ill for a few days and then the busses a few times where late on the weekends when I needed to be at work, so I'd be 2 hours late
10:15<NGC3982>Or does that simply remove and add the same rating again?
10:16<Nekomaster>I typically bulldoze and replant
10:16<NGC3982>I can't seem to make it work.
10:16<Nekomaster>Towns can only hate you so much till you reach the lower limit
10:16<Nekomaster>You need to bulldoze LOTS of trees
10:16<V453000>you cant raise authority if there was crash or bribe
10:16<V453000>other cases it should work
10:16<NGC3982>Oh, darn. I bribe'd them some time ago.
10:17<V453000>unsuccessful bribe that was
10:17<NGC3982>The bribe was successfull, though.
10:17<V453000>if you get punished basically
10:17<V453000>just kill a lot of trees and replant, should do it
10:18<V453000>if in singleplayer, you could enable magic dozer not to lose authority points
10:18<V453000>even better
10:18<Nekomaster>Sometimes I wish I could murder the council of towns when I've done everything to get them to like me, and yet they wont let me remove a building or peice of road I need to move to build a station or my network
10:18<Nekomaster>I use cheats but lately I'm trying to do things the good ol fasion way by playing without cheats
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10:20<Nekomaster>BTW, does anyone have an old version of the Canadian town names grf? the new version doesnt like being added with other grfs unless they're canadian
10:20<Nekomaster>set grfs
10:20<Pinkbeast>Nekomaster: I tend to start operations in every town with a tram line, which builds up a good reserve of rating for when I need it.
10:20<Pinkbeast>... and also means, no matter how bad things get, I'm not in the situation where my rating's so bad I can't build stations, and yet I need stations to recover rating.
10:21<NGC3982>V453000: It did work. Although, "a lot of trees" was an understatement.
10:22<krinn>NGC3982, for my AI, tests show you get the best by removing all trees (get hate at max), then bribe
10:22<Nekomaster>sometimes I wish there was a cheat that let you nuke towns, litterally, like wipe out large swaths of land and put a hole in the ground at the same time (rather then just demolish an area by hand and then dig a hole)
10:22<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: congratulations?!? <-- for reaching 64k sprites? yes. thanks :p
10:23<Nekomaster>64,000 sprites? WTF?
10:23<krinn>as a success bribe put you back in love, but a bad to a lower hate rating
10:23<Nekomaster>save before you bribe if you can
10:23<Pinkbeast>Nekomaster: I thought you weren't cheating?
10:24<krinn>It's in the wiki -> Unsuccessful bribe n/a Set to -50.
10:24<NGC3982>krinn: I see.
10:24<krinn>so remove all trees, goes to -1000 : bad bribe upto -50
10:24<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it's not quite liking to compile at all for me though
10:24<krinn>and you need few trees then
10:24<Pinkbeast>krinn: Cor, that's a bit gamey.
10:25<krinn>that's the rule : but you'll have to put money in bribe anyway
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i haven't pushed my latest changes yet. but the version on devzone did compile properly
10:25<V453000>Nekomaster: that is the amoutn of sprites you get with a lot of effort :)))
10:25<krinn>or going from -1000 to -200 with only trees, would create the amazon
10:25<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it ain't for me
10:25<krinn> /s on/onia
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10:26<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: you need eddi-nml
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>because $someone was against including actionC support
10:27<@Rubidium>I'm currently hitting a gcc misfeature
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>oh, the standard header thingie
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>try editing scripts/ and replace the .onml line with this: $(_V) $(CC) -I. -I./src/ -D REPO_REVISION=$(REPO_REVISION) -C -E -nostdinc -x c-header -o $@ $<
10:30<@Rubidium>are the comments used in later steps?
10:30<@Rubidium>let me guess... they are
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>they are needed for "partial compilation"
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>i could try to make it detect whether eddi-nml is installed and output a version without that. but not today
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>but chances are it will blow up with OOM then
10:32<Nekomaster>I kinda feel like making some sprites, but I know once i open up GIMP ill just close it after 5 seconds
10:32<Nekomaster>The want is high but the motivation is low
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: how is push support coming along?
10:35*peter1138 pushes Eddi|zuHause
10:36<Nekomaster>Could someone help me with something? what vehicle size would the MP4040CH-3C fit? 7/8 or 8/8 (example picture )
10:37<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: what countries are supposed to be covered by that set?
10:37<@Rubidium>it looks kinda "Germany-ish only"
10:37<Nekomaster>Last I remember a MP40 is around the size of a F59PH
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: we temporarily removed the austrian and swiss vehicles to get it to compile, but i'll restore those now that partial compilation is workable
10:38<Nekomaster>Then again, Eddi, you work with a larger scale right?
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>technically, i work with a slightly smaller scale. but it's "properly" scaled length-wise
10:39<Nekomaster>Ahh.... still, I don't think an MP40 is 12/8
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>(it's not entirely possible)
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>in my scale, 12/8 would be 24m. most engines are shorter than that, most modern wagons longer
10:40<Nekomaster>going with NARS scale 12/8 would probably be a Mallet/Santa Fe
10:40<@Rubidium>the devzone head doesn't trigger the nforenum bug though
10:41<Nekomaster>Im actually kinda confused about TTD's messed up scaling. Which is unrealistically bigger? The vehicles or the buildings?
10:41<@Rubidium>could you attach the compressed nfo?
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i can give you the current NFO, and if necessary the graphics.
10:44<@Rubidium>the NFO would definitely be needed, don't think the graphics are needed though
10:44<@Rubidium>and the NFO is only half a MB or so (when compressed)
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>448816 11. Nov 15:41 cets.nfo.xz
10:45<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, as said, I'm happy to offer you ssh push access for now
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: maybe tomorrow
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>gtg now
10:46<Nekomaster>Hmm.... if I did a Canadian/North American train set, which scale would be more appropriate? TTD scale or something larger like the scale used in xUSSR or CETS
10:46<@planetmaker>just send me the public key of yours by whatever means and I'll add it
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, why did it upload the file twice?
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'll need someone to walk me through creating one
10:46<@planetmaker>you surprise me, Eddi|zuHause :-)
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10:46<Nekomaster>I do a Canadian/North American train set, which scale would be more appropriate? TTD scale or something larger like the scale used in xUSSR or CETS
10:46<Nekomaster>If I do*
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: practical appliances are always a mystery to me :)
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10:48<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: like setting up a compile environment and stuff :)
10:49<Nekomaster>*head desk*
10:49<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, windows or linux?
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10:50<NekoMaster>Anyone? Any advice on scale?
10:50<@planetmaker>NekoMaster, whatever suits *you*
10:51<@planetmaker>it's the artistic license any artist has
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10:51<NekoMaster>I'm use to TTD scale but I kinda like the look of CETS/xUSSR scale
10:51<NekoMaster>Plus north american trains are typically bigger then most european trains except for Russian/Eastern Bloc stuff
10:52<@planetmaker> @ Eddi|zuHause (if you're on windows). Otherwise just run ssh-keygen
10:55<NekoMaster>You know, now that I look at it, vehicles like trains look smaller then they should be compared to the buildings and trees
10:55<Pinkbeast>NekoMaster: I think the thing to ask is, which existing sets might yours combine nicely with?
10:55<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, a lot shorter and less cluttered:
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: linux
10:55<Pinkbeast>For example, I often want a smattering of 2cc vehicles in UKRS2 games, so I prefer they are not in wildly disproportionate scales
10:56<NekoMaster>Well part of this is why I'm asking if I should go with a larger scale. Larger scale = more detail\different but might not bode well with other sets
10:56<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, then just run ssh-keygen. And give us ~/.ssh/
10:56<Pinkbeast>NekoMaster: You're stuck with the existing track gauge; I wouldn't make a huge change.
10:56<@planetmaker>NekoMaster, add 'more details' to the sprites for higher zoom levels
10:57<@planetmaker>i.e. provide special sprites for 2x and 4x zoom.
10:57<@planetmaker>you can put *a lot* of detail into those
10:57<NekoMaster>dont start talking about that... you'll make me think about more work and kill my mojo XD
10:57<NekoMaster>I just want to do some default zoom stuff
10:58<NekoMaster>So could the scale that NARS uses be acceptable for North American rail vehicles?
10:58<NekoMaster>because like I said, TTD\NARS scale kinda looks a little smaller then a train should be
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11:02<adf89>i see that mip-mapping is discussed
11:02<adf89>being discussed
11:03<NekoMaster>wtf is mip mapping anyways?
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11:03<adf89>separate sprites for differnt zoom levels
11:03<Nekomaster>ARGH! I hate the back button on my mouse sometimes
11:03<Nekomaster>And I see
11:03<adf89>i know they are available for 32bpp
11:04<Nekomaster>Though I'm currently not in the mood to draw multiple zoom levels
11:04<adf89>what about 8bpp?
11:04<@planetmaker>adf89, yes... iirc there's a nearly complete implementation in icosahedron
11:04<Nekomaster>I just want to draw some default zoom stuff, but I'm still undecided with the scale
11:04<@planetmaker>adf89, and no, bit depth is totally irrelevant and they're not exactly available there, too
11:04<@planetmaker>zooming for those need be handled the same for those like for any other sprite
11:05<adf89>yes, i know some code details
11:05<@planetmaker>(and should - least duplication principle :-) )
11:05<adf89>i just want to ask
11:05<adf89>what about 8bpp
11:05<Nekomaster>What about 8bpp?
11:05<@planetmaker>sprites need not be done. But they do exist for 1x, 1.5x and 2x OpenGFX
11:07<adf89>will there be "mipmapping" in 8bpp ?
11:07<Nekomaster>I believe thats done in 8bpp for 8bpp graphics
11:08<@planetmaker>adf89, what is 'mipmapping'? you mean the automatic scaling?
11:08<adf89>i mean a possibility
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11:08<peter1138>adf89, yes, you can provide different zoom levels for 8bpp sprites.
11:08<adf89>to provide differnt sprites (via GRF)
11:08<adf89>for differnt zoom levels
11:08<@planetmaker>there's no difference in bit depths
11:08<adf89>I was browsing lates trunk code
11:08<@planetmaker>except that 8bpp 1x zoom is the only required sprite type
11:09<@planetmaker>all other bit depths and zoom levels are treated equally
11:09<peter1138>Rather, different bit depths are not treated differently.
11:10*peter1138 still ponders a decent accelerated renderer.
11:10<@planetmaker>openCL? :-)
11:11<peter1138>Allows for efficient sparse updating.
11:11<peter1138>And possibly compositing for windows, though that would be quite some work.
11:12<adf89>i must go
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11:15<Nekomaster>So has anyone seen the scale\size of the vehicles in CETs or the xUSSR set?
11:18<Nekomaster>im going to rip my hair out debating scale! argh!
11:18<peter1138>Who cares?
11:18<peter1138>Stick to 8/8 unless it's obviously shorter.
11:18<Nekomaster>ok then
11:19<Nekomaster>but first I need sprite templates, pikka's wiki doesnt have them anymore :(
11:20<Nekomaster>argh why did pikka remove the sprite templates from pikkawiki!? I need them now more then ever
11:24<Xaroth|Work>first world problems right there
11:24<Nekomaster>are these templates proper for a rail vehicle?
11:25<Nekomaster>I know it says tram vehicle templates, but I'd prefer to have the shapes their for reference of how I should draw my vehicles
11:30<Nekomaster>btw, is it possible to draw sprites in unpaletized 32-bpp
11:30<Nekomaster>aside from CC blue and CC green
11:31<Pinkbeast>Any help?
11:32<Nekomaster>thank you
11:32<Nekomaster>Though I'm going with "TTD" scale, looking at NARS cars versus CETS cars, yeah, TTD scale cars look kinda short
11:33<Nekomaster>then again most people go with what, 7/8 for passenger\mail cars?
11:33<Pinkbeast>Beats me.
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11:48<krinn>is there a /restart/reset for GS ?
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11:58<@planetmaker>krinn, no, that's for admin port. You can try talk to your favourite admin port script though :-)
11:58<@planetmaker>krinn, though of course a GS can stop the game
11:58<krinn>i would rather let the game keep running while the gs restart
11:59<krinn>(yep like a save/restore)
11:59<@planetmaker>uh, you mean just to reload the script?
11:59<@planetmaker>like stop_ai; start_ai?
11:59<@planetmaker>I don't think that's feasible
11:59<krinn>or more like the reload button :)
12:00<@planetmaker>or rather: not implemented. could be a script_developer debugging thing
12:00<krinn>would be better if kept out of user eyes
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12:01<krinn>but changing anything in the GS while having AIs running doesn't help as quit/restart and all AIs restart from 0
12:02<krinn>would be a fine feature for debug to just let them keep going while the GS restart
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12:09<frosch123>reload ai also clears company property
12:09<frosch123>so, either you can save/load the game and it will load the new gs
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12:09<frosch123>or you can restart the game with the same settings
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12:10<krinn>lmao and if you put your hands in the grease, will your at it, move the "AI/Game log script" option after "about openttd" : i keep taking screenshots :)
12:11<krinn>frosch123, i would like the players to stay alive, and the GS "jump" into that state and start
12:11<krinn>frosch123, of course the good solve is the save/load, but kinda slow
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12:19<frosch123>you can load the game via console
12:19<frosch123>so if you load it once with console, you can just do "open console", "cursor up", "enter"
12:20<krinn>there's also the save ?
12:20<frosch123>there are load and save console commands
12:20<krinn>ah great ! save test / load test
12:22*krinn is happy now
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13:28<krinn>hi Wolf01
13:30<Wolf01>does somebody know how to code some will power?
13:32<krinn>will power?
13:33<krinn>i think you can code something in xanax++
13:34<Wolf01>maybe I could just ask Green Lantern
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13:58<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r25965 trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp (2013-11-11 18:58:15 UTC)
13:58<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5800]: the wrong vehicle would be taken in a shared order vehicle list window when the ID >= 65536, causing assertions triggering later on
13:59<@Rubidium>emperical evidence that "large number of vehicles" kinda implies "not using shared orders"
14:00<frosch123>not the other way around?
14:01<frosch123>hmm, or do you refer to it not being noticed earlier?
14:01<@Rubidium>yes, the not being noticed earlier
14:07<@Rubidium>but then, it's only a relatively new feature
14:09<@Rubidium>(relatively being 3+ years in trunk)
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14:46<zydeco>I'm not sure if that's a detached hand
14:46<andythenorth>m m m m m m m m
14:47<krinn>bah i sucks at graphic
14:51<@planetmaker>zydeco, did you ask the other day about processing the blender stuff from zbase?
14:52<zydeco>not me
14:52<@planetmaker>k :D
14:53<krinn>lol fench TV announce : 3x more angry, they touch at the colonel ! 3x more dangerous : "He is not God, God is merciful and he is not"...
14:53<krinn>3 !
14:54<+glx>I know what you are watching krinn :)
14:54<krinn>d8 :)
14:54<krinn>did you smile with the rambo announce too
14:54<krinn>i was waiting for homeland
14:55<+glx>same here
14:55<+glx>and GoT after
14:55<krinn>hehe, i like that actor, saw him in life
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15:03<andythenorth>tech levels/
15:03<Supercheese>You have progressed to the Bronze Age
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15:04<Supercheese>Unlocked: Swordsman, Mounted Swordsman
15:04<Supercheese>oh wait, wrong game :P
15:04<zydeco>you have progressed to the maglev age
15:05<Supercheese>Unlocked: Stupid fast trains. Obsolete: Good-looking screenshots.
15:07<@planetmaker>lol, Supercheese :-)
15:07<Supercheese>I dunno about anyone else, but screenshots of 100% maglev track look horrible to me
15:07<@planetmaker>would it be an outcry to replace maglev by what smits provides as maglev?
15:07<@planetmaker>yes, I agree
15:08<Supercheese>same goes for monorail
15:08<Supercheese>with default sprites, of course
15:08<@planetmaker>monorail is better
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15:11<NekoMaster>Bonjour people
15:12<NekoMaster>Anyone want to evaluate my WIP horizon car?
15:13*andythenorth needs an 'always start with $100m' cheat, for newgrf testing
15:13<Supercheese>andy: Gamescript ;)
15:13<andythenorth>ho ho
15:13<andythenorth>good point
15:13<andythenorth>also I have to write more switches to check grfid :(
15:14<andythenorth>this was pleasingly small amount of code :P
15:14<frosch123>andythenorth: alt+1 in debug build
15:15<andythenorth>frosch123: :o
15:16<NekoMaster>"I like trains"
15:18<andythenorth>would we consider providing alt+1 if newgrf dev tools are enabled?
15:18<@planetmaker>yes, we could consider that imho
15:19<@planetmaker>hm... and single-player
15:19<andythenorth>I don't mind using normal cheat ui
15:19<andythenorth>but it's wearing out my ctrl-alt keys....
15:19<@planetmaker>I know what you mean
15:19<@planetmaker>saving two clicks. On multiple starts
15:20<andythenorth>an alternative: instead of 'newgame' 'newtestgame'
15:20<andythenorth>or 'newdebuggame'
15:20<andythenorth>or something
15:20<@planetmaker>or simply allow insane amounts of start money configured
15:21<NekoMaster>Can someone tell me how my Amtrak Horizon Car looks > I need to know before I continue because aparently I suck
15:21<NekoMaster>at pixel art
15:21<Supercheese>any reference photos?
15:21<andythenorth>NekoMaster: it doesn't suck, do the other angles
15:21<Supercheese>you could link?
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15:21<andythenorth>NekoMaster: views for / and \ are much harder than -
15:21<NekoMaster>I know that
15:22<andythenorth>it doesn't suck, keep going
15:22<Supercheese>are you using both CC and 2CC for the bi-color stripe?
15:22<Supercheese>or heck, it's tri-color red white and blue
15:22<frosch123>planetmaker: andythenorth: alt+1 actually bypasses the cheat stuff
15:22<NekoMaster>unless I went with a larger scale I can only do bi-color
15:23<NekoMaster>I wish I could do tri-color
15:23<andythenorth>pixel art = compromose
15:23<frosch123>however, we could make most cheats advanced settings like "allow cheating money" or "changing date", and then attach them to mousewheel action on the statusbar
15:23<andythenorth>compromise *
15:23<andythenorth>money cheat = essential for toddlers playing :)
15:23<@planetmaker>hm, sounds like a good idea actually, frosch123
15:24<andythenorth>child #1 is not profitable
15:24<NekoMaster>Money cheat = Pretend the government loaned you 20 mill
15:24<andythenorth>also, we really need to fix vehicle colouring :P
15:24<@planetmaker>just become supercritical, too big to fail and you don't have to pay back the loan
15:24<NekoMaster>I think a 1,000,000 loan limit is silly
15:24<MNIM>NekoMaster: no, bailout :P
15:25<NekoMaster>Nah, I pretend that the only 20 mill that I add is a government loan to get a company started because they need shit moved
15:25<andythenorth>meanwhile /me looks if grfid is in scope
15:25<andythenorth>someone will now tell me it's an nml var :P
15:26<andythenorth>it is
15:26<NekoMaster>Hmm, at least i have my 7 inch Note II as a second screen for showing referense pictures while spriting :)
15:26<@planetmaker>you told yourself, andythenorth ! ;-)
15:26<andythenorth>hmm, but I need the grfid of iron-horse
15:26<andythenorth>I probably have that somewhere :P
15:26<@planetmaker>you know your own, don't you?
15:26<andythenorth>somewhere in this warren of code, yes
15:27<@planetmaker>I usually add a list of #define GRFID_XXX "blah"
15:27<NekoMaster>I have the id
15:27<@planetmaker>so that I can use the grfIDs later in the code easily w/o remembering any
15:28<NekoMaster>Iron Horse ID :)
15:28<andythenorth>oops, I put it directly in a template :P
15:28<andythenorth>silly andythenorth
15:28<andythenorth>planetmaker: there's no known case for the makefile needing the grfid?
15:28<andythenorth>before I move it to the wrong place :P
15:29<NekoMaster>OMG I hate it when you goto add something to a URL and you replace the whole URL
15:29<andythenorth>NekoMaster: cmd-z?
15:29<@planetmaker>andythenorth, there actually is one: to put it also in a scripted way into the readme
15:29<andythenorth>so I could add it to repo vars
15:29<andythenorth>or I could have it in python global_constants
15:29<NekoMaster>I dont have a command key
15:29<andythenorth>NekoMaster: ctrl-z?
15:29*NekoMaster is a windows user
15:29<@planetmaker>yes. it could be given the compiler via -DGRFID=$GRFID
15:29<@planetmaker>or so
15:29<andythenorth>dunno, might just be a mac thing
15:30<andythenorth>planetmaker: makefile.config?
15:30<@Alberth>andythenorth: lol, ctrl-z is EOF at windows :p
15:30<NekoMaster>CTRL+Z does little help when you've already replaced the URL and pressed enter
15:30<@planetmaker>and then you could define the GRFID="blah" in Makefile.config
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15:30<andythenorth>Alberth: :) lulz, I iz a mac user
15:30*NekoMaster barfs
15:30<NekoMaster>I'm allergic to apples D:
15:30<@planetmaker>or maybe w/o the "". Needs test :-)
15:31<@Alberth>NekoMaster: use Linux or *BSD instead :)
15:31<andythenorth>planetmaker: testing :)
15:31<NekoMaster>I prefer looking at Windows with my Androids :3
15:31<NekoMaster>I use to like linux but they're going the wrong way with it
15:31<NekoMaster>making it too user friendly and bogging it down with flashy interfaces and flashy code
15:32<NekoMaster>even the high performance linux stuff still is sluggish compared to my windows 7 install
15:32<@Alberth>that's just default behavior :)
15:32<@planetmaker>andythenorth, CC_USER_FLAGS=-DGRFID=$GRFID also in Makefile.config
15:32<@Alberth>takes a bit of configuration to make the system work like you want it
15:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: any particular place to add that?
15:32<NekoMaster>Besides, with a more powerful computer now, I need windows 7 if I wanna play things like Call of Duty, Fallout 3, Skyrim or MOrrowind, SimCity 4 or 2000 or 3000
15:33<@planetmaker>below the definition of the GRFID="blah" :-)
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15:33<@Alberth>hi Lord
15:33<NekoMaster>Plus I find linux still lacks proper 3D acceleration so 3D games suffer having to use software rendering
15:34<@planetmaker>hullo LordAro
15:34<Taede>evening all
15:34<@planetmaker>hullo Taede
15:35<LordAro>my computer is being very weird - if i have boinc running, and the pc is running medium-high load, it *randomly* sometimes shuts down, as if a loss of power
15:35<LordAro>but only if boinc is running - it just survived an hour of mprime torture with no incident
15:36<andythenorth>planetmaker: needs formatting? Also the \ are double-escaped when they arrive in python (\\), so assuming that needs changed...
15:36<andythenorth>otherwise appears to work
15:36<@Alberth>LordAro: sounds like an overheating problem?
15:37<andythenorth>LordAro: read the logs?
15:37<@planetmaker>andythenorth, do you need any "\" at all?
15:37<LordAro>nope, temperatures are apparently normal (max of 61C)
15:37<LordAro>andythenorth: as far as i can tell, there are no logs, it just turns off
15:37<LordAro>unless i'm looking at the wrong logs
15:37<andythenorth>planetmaker: not sure, they are copied from the definition in my nml grf block
15:37<@planetmaker>if yes, then... dunno escape as much as is needed :-)
15:38<andythenorth>I could fix it in python, but that seems wrong :)
15:38<@Alberth>LordAro: weird :(
15:38<LordAro>Alberth: very :L
15:38<andythenorth>the escapes are probably not wanted in the makefile I am guessing
15:38<@planetmaker>andythenorth, doesn't exactly matter. No problem to define it the way that it reaches code properly
15:39<@planetmaker>but before you go into too great lengths: currently the docs do not use GRFID, iirc
15:39<@planetmaker>but it would be a nice addition
15:39<andythenorth>my docs are built with python anyway :)
15:39<@planetmaker>well :-)
15:39<andythenorth>so this might be unnecesary? :)
15:39<@planetmaker>yeah, then just define it in your header
15:39<@planetmaker>hardcode. I actually do that, too
15:40<andythenorth>it goes in :)
15:40<@planetmaker>everything else was too much hassle for me really. For very little gain
15:40<andythenorth>makefile could always look in that .py file :P
15:41<Taede>lordaro: did you not just install a new psu?
15:41<@planetmaker>yes, it could
15:42<LordAro>Taede: yup
15:42<LordAro>it's not that
15:42<LordAro>it's either cpu or motherboard, imo
15:43<@planetmaker>unstable power might do, too
15:43<LordAro>perhaps, but there's been nothing else reported
15:44<Taede>if it didnt do it with the old psu, and you still have it i'd swawp em over just to eliminate it
15:44<Taede>all it needs is a single rail to dip between readings
15:46<LordAro>i did do it with the old psu, hence replacing it ;)
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15:50<andythenorth>python somewhat understands these escapes
15:50<andythenorth>with unwanted results
15:50*andythenorth has to read the nml docs about grfid :P
15:51<@planetmaker>andythenorth, 4-byte literal string
15:51<@planetmaker>"blah" or "bla\0"
15:51<andythenorth>it's the \ escapes there that are the problem
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15:52<andythenorth>so "CA\12\1E" seems to be evaluated by python, even though it's a string
15:52<andythenorth>resulting in "CA [newline] E"
15:52<@planetmaker>he :D
15:53<@Alberth>yes \12 = 8+2 = 10 = NL
15:53<@planetmaker>\"CA\12\1E\" ?
15:53<andythenorth>herp :P
15:53<@Alberth>"CA\\12\\1E" I'd say
15:54<@Alberth>ie you want a literal \ in the string, which you need to escape
15:54<andythenorth>prefix r?
15:54*andythenorth was googling
15:54<@Alberth>in Python that would work
15:56<andythenorth>doesn't for me :)
15:56<andythenorth>oh, now nml is sulking about it :(
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15:58<andythenorth>small victories :P
15:58<@planetmaker>many small victories win the battle ;-)
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16:03<andythenorth>that is also my approach to dice wars
16:03<andythenorth>which I am playing
16:03<andythenorth>between compiles :P
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16:44<andythenorth>maybe str2number() is my friend for grfids in switches
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17:02<andythenorth>oops :o
17:03*andythenorth made a very silly mistake with logic
17:03<andythenorth>maybe it's bed time :)
17:03<andythenorth>good night
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17:11<Wolf01>'night all
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17:39<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: so how do i get this public key to you?
17:43<@planetmaker>paste it somewhere. forum mail. create a ticket at devzone help centre
17:43<@planetmaker>it's public, thus no secret :-)
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>hm. so forum didn't like the extension...
17:50<@planetmaker>just paste it in a private irc conversation
17:52<@planetmaker>ok, key installed, should work now
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>"Entfernt: Fügte 29 Änderungssätze mit 64 Änderungen an 27 Dateien hinzu" <-- sounds weird
17:56<@planetmaker>would sound slightly less weired if it was like "Entferntes Repo: ..."
17:56<@planetmaker>but otherwise?
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>first, the ambiguity between "remote" and "removed", second, the unusual past tense...
17:57<@planetmaker>:-) Actually true, though. You only get the message after the changesets have been integrated into the remote repository
17:58<@planetmaker>it's in the post-commit hook
17:58<@planetmaker>the internal one
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>what i always wondered: why does the project page have no link to the nightlies?
18:01<@planetmaker>which page?
18:01<@planetmaker> or something else?
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes, for example
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: personally, i'd expect it as one of those tabs
18:03<@planetmaker>Well, that requires a custom plug-in to redmine which does not exactly exist :-)
18:03<@planetmaker>I added to CETS the tab to hudson (=jenkins)
18:03<@planetmaker>that can be done by each project manager
18:04<@planetmaker>see settings->modules
18:04<@planetmaker>for old redmine versions there used to be an URL tab plug-in. But that does not work with newer versions any longer
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>mäh, why does that say failed
18:04<@planetmaker>because it failed
18:04<@planetmaker>see the build logs. Missing graphics file
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>looks like missing directory to put the file in
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>i did have a "create directories" step somewhere...
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18:12<@planetmaker>dum di dum...!searchin/jenkinsci-dev/force$20push/jenkinsci-dev/-myjRIPcVwU/mrwn8VkyXagJ
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: why does the console log start with listing the _previous_ head and not the current head?
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>interesting "progress bar" :p
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>what does it base its progress on?
18:21<@planetmaker>valid questions. I don't know :-)
18:21<@planetmaker>though the progress bar likely depends on the previous build time. It remembers that
18:22<@planetmaker>ok, that only failed to publish the build...
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>"Error on sprite 759." <- not using grfcodec tip, i presume
18:24<@planetmaker>changeset: 965:a3e37207880b
18:24<@planetmaker>^ grfcodec
18:24<@planetmaker>that's 6.0.3
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, rubidium fixed those errors a few days ago
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>but that's not critical, just clutters the output
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>the error message is bogus anyway
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>something with "ID out of range"
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>where the range is just larger in openttd
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>it won't have anything to do with failing to publish
18:32<@planetmaker>no, that's different
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>anyone besides me find it weird that nforenum just says "error" and leaves you to manually look into the file to find out what kind of error?
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18:36<@planetmaker>could certainly be improved upon
18:40<@planetmaker>right. Just updating to tip won't update the repository if it's not preceeded by a pull :-)
18:40<@planetmaker>so grfcodec should now update itself properly, too
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21:29<Nekomaster>anyone alive?
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22:42*Supercheese is alive, last he checked
22:42<Supercheese>Whoop, he's gone
22:58<Eddi|zuHause>don't feed cats after midnight
23:08<Eddi|zuHause>anybody fancy writing out these colour indices into a table?
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---Logclosed Tue Nov 12 00:00:25 2013