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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-11-16

---Logopened Sat Nov 16 00:00:31 2013
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03:46<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26006 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt strings.cpp) (2013-11-16 09:49:13 UTC)
04:49<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5804]: Game script showing vehicle on a story book, then the vehicle being removed and eventually being replaced by a non-user vehicle (most likely smoke) causing an assertion to trigger
04:54<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26007 trunk/src/strings.cpp (2013-11-16 09:54:22 UTC)
04:54<@DorpsGek>-Change: make handling strings coming from game scripts slightly more lenient, i.e. less 'fatal error... must quit'
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05:04<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26008 trunk/src/fileio.cpp (2013-11-16 10:04:10 UTC)
05:04<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r25975): uninitialised warning
05:06<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26009 trunk/src/video/win32_v.cpp (2013-11-16 10:05:57 UTC)
05:06<@DorpsGek>-Fix: warning about conditional expression with enumeral with non-enumeral type
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05:34<Wolf01>hi hi
05:38<@Rubidium>so, still nobody with 64 bit Windows XP?
05:40<LordAro>Rubidium: ask on the forums?
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05:42<LordAro>/o Zuu
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06:51<LordAro>/o krinn
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07:04<zydeco>how long does it take for planes to crash when there are no airports?
07:14<Taede>as soon as the station-sign of the last airport dissappears, or when there are no airports and the orders get removed from the aircraft
07:14<Taede>^ just did a quick test
07:15<zydeco>but if I have a helidepot, they won't crash
07:15<zydeco>even though they can't land there
07:15<Taede>i think as long as they have orders to go to a valid station they keep flying, wether or not the station accepts aircraft
07:16<Taede>trying it with truckdepot attached now
07:17<krinn>hmmm, you know building an airport and selling the aircraft should cost less money then having it crash? I didn't count, but i'm pretty sure letting crash will cost you more money than building airport to let it land
07:18<Taede>yeah, seems to just circle indefinetly
07:19<Taede>so as long the aircraft has a valid order to an existing station (even if it is just the sign left) it will keep circling
07:19<Taede>probably intentional, allowing you to replace the airport without them all falling out of the sky
07:20<zydeco>still, if they have no orders and you have a helidepot with a hangar they can't land in, they still won't crash
07:20<zydeco>because the "go to depot order" takes it to that hangar, but then it realises it can't land so it circles around it
07:22<zydeco>maybe FindNearestHangar shouldn't find a hangar in a helidepot when called from a plane
07:22<Taede>so they circle indefinitely as long as they have a sliver of hope they can land somewhere, (order or available airport, compatible or not). Otherwise, crash with utmost haste
07:24<zydeco>well I'll be back later
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07:25<krinn>propably need to open a bug to allow put a sign named "hudson" on water to let plane land ?
07:27<krinn>i'm not sure was he aiming at making his plane crash ?
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07:28<Eddi|zuHause>no, it was an emergency landing
07:29<krinn>:) not the hudson guy, i was speaking about zydeco
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07:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r26010 /trunk/src/script/api (script_controller.hpp script_info_docs.hpp) (2013-11-16 12:33:45 UTC)
07:33<@DorpsGek>-Document [FS#5662]: The AI/GS library name to use in Import, is not the name given by GetName but GetInstanceName
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07:50<rknol>hello friends
07:50<rknol>i want to compile openttd on freebsd 9.2
07:50<rknol>but it keeps complaining about not being able to find liblzma
07:51<rknol>and if i pass the liblzma.a manually with --with-liblzma=[path]
07:51<rknol>it tells me
07:51<rknol>configure: error: you supplied '/usr/local/lib/liblzma.a', but it seems invalid
07:51<rknol>so who's got a clue for me!
07:52<krinn>point to the .so and not the .a
07:52<rknol>the ./configure --help told me to point to the .a :p
07:53<rknol>--with-liblzma[=liblzma.a] enables liblzma support
07:53<rknol>gonna try it though, hold on
07:53<krinn>well, in my distri, nearly all .a were removed, glad it don't really need .a
07:53<rknol>nope, no go: configure: error: you supplied '/usr/local/lib/', but it seems invalid
07:54<krinn>and you check /usr/local/lib got it ?
07:56<rknol>it's properly linked as well:
07:56<rknol>root@stoofpeer:~/build/openttd-1.3.2 # ldd /usr/local/lib/ /usr/local/lib/ => /usr/lib/ (0x801239000) => /lib/ (0x80154f000) => /lib/ (0x80081b000) => /lib/ (0x801770000)
07:58<krinn>i dunno then
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08:02<krinn>detecting lzma is done by pkgconfig
08:02<krinn>got the pahtopkgconfig/liblzma.pc ?
08:02<@Rubidium> ought to fix the "problem" (being the badly copy-pasted help text)
08:03<rknol>oh yes
08:03<rknol>i remember this
08:03<rknol>gonna give it a shot, hold on
08:05<rknol>the patch won't work anymore but i'll fix it manually
08:06<@Rubidium>the patch doesn't do anything besides changing the output of configure --help
08:07<rknol>okay so
08:07<rknol>configure: error: pkg-config liblzma couldn't be found
08:07<rknol>configure: error: you supplied 'pkg-config liblzma', but it seems invalid
08:09<rknol>though pkg-config liblzma exits with non-0 exit code (and no output)
08:09<krinn>pkg-config liblzma --exists | echo $?
08:10<rknol>root@stoofpeer:~/build/openttd-1.3.2 # pkg-config liblzma --exists | echo $? 0
08:13<krinn>pkg-config liblzma --modversion <- from my config.log
08:14<rknol>i don't have a liblzma.pc apparently!
08:16<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26011 trunk/config.lib (2013-11-16 13:16:38 UTC)
08:16<@DorpsGek>-Fix: --help text of ./configure for packages that require pkg-config
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08:17<krinn>can provide you that, but you need fix path in it... better get the one provide by bsd
08:17<rknol>apparently i don't have one
08:17<rknol>on my system
08:18<@Rubidium>maybe you need to install the lzma-dev development headers? or maybe xz-dev
08:19<rknol>those don't come with ports, or pkg
08:19<rknol>i made my own
08:19<rknol>and it worked
08:20<krinn>lucky you
08:21<rknol>on to the next problem!
08:22<krinn>those says Rubidium was right
08:23<@Rubidium>I've always been right...
08:23<@Rubidium>... handed ;)
08:24<krinn>rknol, see what you made ? He will sing the whole day now
08:24<rknol>just wondering what this specific error means now!
08:25<@Rubidium>that the include path to lzo is missing
08:25<krinn>that lzo.h is not found and then cannot provide missing symbols
08:25<rknol>why is the include path to lzo missing :p
08:26<@Rubidium>because the development headers for lzo are missing?
08:26<krinn>can he use ones provide by kernel ?
08:27<rknol>how would i go about installing those, if they're not in ports or pkg?
08:27<@Rubidium>krinn: I doubt that; the development headers describe what is in the libraries
08:27<krinn>rknol, really better find the bsd package for lzma dev
08:27<@Rubidium>lzo != lzma
08:28<krinn>must be in xzutils no ?
08:29<rknol>no such package in ports and/or pkg
08:29<rknol>would compiling it from source install the development headers?
08:30<@Rubidium>krinn: no, lzo was written well... in 1996, xz in 2005
08:30<rknol>plus, the xzutils website doesn't mention lzo
08:30<Taede>zutils maybe?
08:30<@Rubidium>anyhow, building and installing it yourself usually creates and installs the development headers
08:31<krinn>Rubidium, but lzma.h have them in it no ?
08:31<rknol>okay Rubidium
08:31<rknol>hold on, gonna attempt this
08:31<krinn>look for xz-utils
08:31<@Rubidium>krinn: why would lzma.h contain lzo.h?
08:31<@Rubidium>because the first two characters match?
08:31<@Rubidium>under that premise openttd contains openoffice
08:31<krinn>because it obsolete the other
08:32<rknol>compiling openttd again
08:33<rknol>nope, same thing
08:37<rknol>consulting #feebsd on freenode about how to get those damn development headers onto my system!!
08:39<krinn>well, gentoo must provide them, no choice there, but i suppose binary distrib can provide a runtime version and a dev version of a package
08:39<krinn>lzma was drop for xz, ask for xz version
08:40<rknol>xz doesn't contain lzo
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08:45<rknol>okay Rubidium turns out i DO have the development headers
08:45<rknol>but that gmake doesn't find them?
08:49<krinn>Rubidium, openttd has lzo mark as dependency in my ebuild, can't it just be missing lzo ?
08:51<rknol>don't worry about it
08:51<rknol>i'll just build it from ports
08:51<rknol>and mod the makefile to not install the whole X-server ecosystem
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10:14<rknol>hello friends
10:14<rknol>that's right, i'm back
10:14<rknol>i can't get the original sounds to work on 1.3.2 universal build for osx
10:15<rknol>i place the gm folder in the right directory
10:15<rknol>apply the right permissions
10:15<rknol>but still, no go
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10:22<@Alberth>not DOS version or original transport tycoon ? (as explained in readme 4.1.3)
10:23<@Alberth>oh, it also says something about copying to baseset instead of gm
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10:35<rknol>okay got that fixed!
10:35<rknol>so, on to the next problem
10:35<rknol>running a dedicated server that i started with -g
10:35<rknol>now it tells me
10:35<rknol>dbg: [sl] Game Load Failed
10:35<rknol>File not readable
10:35<rknol>the file IS readable?
10:37<@Alberth>perhaps a save game of a patched version, or made with a newer version than what you have?
10:37<@Alberth>readable also means the contents is understandable, I think, not just the "r" bit
10:38<rknol>freshly compiled 1.3.2 is the server
10:38<rknol>freshly downloaded 1.3.2 client for osx
10:38<rknol>save game made on the latter
10:38<@Alberth>ok, should work
10:38<rknol>it doesn't
10:38<rknol>how can i debug this
10:39<@Alberth>tried the absolute path of the file?
10:40<@Alberth>./openttd -d sl=5 or so higher number is more output
10:42<@Alberth>no idea what the output is though
10:43<rknol>turns out it was still my liblzma mess
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10:53<rknol>it's not
10:53<rknol>Alberth: with the debug turned up
10:53<rknol>it doesn't tell me much useful info
10:53<rknol>is there anything else i could try
10:55<@Alberth>run it with a random game?
10:55<@Alberth>so you can test whether it runs at all, and possibly get a save game from it
10:55<rknol>it does run
10:55<rknol>with a random game
10:55<rknol>just not with any .sav i make
10:57<Taede>can you load the game via rcon once the server is up (with a random map) ?
10:57<@Alberth>the only thing I can think of currently is to load a .sav that it created itself
10:57<@Alberth>perhaps it has newgrf dependencies?
10:57<krinn>better shown the real error than "it says that"
10:57<rknol>krinn: the real error is exactly that
10:58<Taede>ive come across that error a few imes, in the same situation
10:58<rknol>Taede: let's see
10:58<Taede>but mostly the savegame itself was actually corrupted
10:58<rknol>i tried multiple .sav's
10:58<krinn>and perms of the save allow server to read it ?
10:59<Taede>try rcon load <savegame> and see if that works
11:03<rknol>it can't start a randomly generated map either
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11:05<krinn>didn't you just said it was working?
11:05<rknol>i was mistaken
11:05<rknol>it didn't autogenerate a map, it fell back onto an autosave that WAS working
11:14<rknol>who can help me debug this
11:19<Taede>trying to think what other debuglevel may give output
11:20<rknol>sl=5 gives me
11:20<rknol>dbg: [sl] Nulling pointers dbg: [sl] Nulling pointers for VEHS dbg: [sl] Nulling pointers for CHKP
11:20<rknol>and so on
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11:20<Taede>yes, and that is the actual save-load debug
11:20<Taede>but you could try newgrf debug
11:21<Taede>debug newgrf=5
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11:22<rknol>unknown debug level?
11:22<Taede>sorry, grf=5
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11:22<Taede>and/or misc
11:23<Taede>not sure any others will show anything relevant
11:24<rknol>nothing to indicate errors
11:25<@Rubidium>just pipe -d9 into a file and paste that somewhere. Maybe someone else can see what's going wrong
11:25<krinn>you have done the base: install a graphics set, soundset... (or check your package did gave you one)
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11:32<rknol>here we go:
11:32<@Rubidium>first of all, lang files do not belong in the ~/.openttd folder
11:33<rknol>~/.openttd is the bin folder
11:33<rknol>of my installation
11:33<rknol>on my server
11:33<rknol>(i used to run multiple servers of multiple versions)
11:33<Taede>~/.openttd or ~/openttd?
11:35<@Alberth>dbg: [grf] LoadNewGRFFile: Reading NewGRF-file 'trghr.grf'
11:35<@Alberth>dbg: [grf] LoadNewGRFFile: Custom .grf has invalid format that looks very wrong
11:35<rknol>well, it's not using newgrf but the original transport tycoon graphics files
11:36<@Alberth>it's not, it fails to read them apparently
11:36<rknol>why would it do that, this works fine with a binary of a previous version (1.2.2)
11:36<@Alberth>original graphics files are also "newgrf" files
11:36<rknol>so it's not the files themselves
11:37<@Alberth>r bit?
11:37<rknol>what do you mean?
11:38<@Rubidium>based on the lack of messages about loading a savegame version, it goes wrong really really early; before even checking for compression. To me that would mean that the application has no rights to read the file you try to open (or the file is 0-ish bytes)
11:40<@Alberth>I mean does the program has read access? (0 bytes is another good candidate)
11:40<@Rubidium>regarding trghr.grf; that shouldn't be in the newgrf folder, but it being scanned seems to imply it is
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11:40<rknol>i moved those out of there
11:41<rknol>and i double checked permissions/group permissions of the saves folder
11:41<rknol>but everything is rknol/rknol -rwxrwxrwx
11:41<rknol>which should mean that it can read
11:42<@Alberth>so something else goes wrong while loading
11:42<@Rubidium>acls can also mess things up I guess
11:42<rknol>i don't have an ACL enabled filesystem
11:44<@Rubidium>then I have no further clues
11:45<rknol>any idea who to talk to who may have a clue?
11:45<rknol>i mean, i don't think this is supposed to be broken like this after a fresh, sane build
11:45<@Alberth>you just spoke with the lead dev :p
11:45<rknol>oh boy
11:46<@Alberth>hmm, g++ version perhaps?
11:47<rknol>[rknol@freebsd0 /home/msikma/.openttd]$ g++ --version g++ (GCC) 4.2.1 20070831 patched [FreeBSD]
11:48<@Alberth>ok, not 4.5 thus
11:48<rknol>this is the latest i can acquire on this system
11:49<rknol>(freebsd 9.0)
11:49<krinn>really, recheck your perms
11:50<krinn>openttd read from /usr/home/mskima and not from /home/msikma like you just gave
11:50<@Alberth>krinn: /usr/home is normal at a bsd system
11:50<krinn>and home is a link to it ?
11:51<__ln__>why would home need to be a link to it?
11:51<krinn>no idea but openttd also read from /home/rknol dir
11:51<rknol>that's because it checks the current dir
11:51<rknol>but also the environment of the user executing it
11:52<rknol>gonna see if i can get this to build on my freebsd 9.2 system
11:52<rknol>given up on this 9.0 machine for this
11:54<dada_>krinn: /usr/home = /home
11:54<dada_>(also have access to the server)
11:55<rknol>dada_ is in fact.... msikma
11:57<dada_>*plot twist*
11:58<rknol>plot twist indeed
11:58<rknol>it's building on our 9.2 server
11:58<rknol>we shall see..
11:59<dada_>i dun get it :-(
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12:02<@Alberth>mount point?
12:04<rknol>building it from ports, since 1.3.2 is the version in ports on freebsd 9.2
12:04<rknol>hopefully that will do the trick
12:04<rknol>not having the best of luck today
12:05<rknol>what is going wrong
12:05<rknol>i just want to play this game!!!!
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12:05<dada_>don't worry rknol. there's always minesweeper
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12:09<frosch123>that is a linker error
12:09<frosch123>so you are missing the xz/lzma libarary in the LDFLAGS
12:09<rknol>any idea as to how to fix that
12:10<rknol>this resulted from running 'cd /usr/ports/games/opentdd && make -D WITH_DEDICATED_SERVER_ONLY=1 && make install' on a good as new freebsd9.2 system
12:10<frosch123>pkg-config lzma --libs should output them
12:11<rknol>Package 'lzma', required by 'world', not found
12:11<rknol>root@stoofpeer:/usr/ports/games/openttd # pkg-config liblzma --libs -llzma
12:11<frosch123>"pkg-config liblzma --libs" gives "-llzma" for me (on linux)
12:11<rknol>for me too on this system
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12:20<krinn>and grep perfix /pathto/liblzma.pc
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12:26<rubenwardy>How can I make a train track one way?
12:26<frosch123>build one-way signals
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12:27<rubenwardy>At junctions and station?
12:28<rubenwardy>found it on the wiki
12:30<rknol>frosch123: prefix=/usr
12:31<krinn><rknol> root@stoofpeer:~/build/openttd-1.3.2 # ldd /usr/local/lib/
12:31<krinn>-> /usr is not /usr/local
12:32<rknol>it's also in /usr
12:33<rknol>i have tried both prefixes
12:33<rknol>but the result is the same
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12:35<krinn>i really don't get freebsd, or your system is a mess (and tbh i think both are true)
12:35<rubenwardy>Is it possible to view all bus stops and their ratings in a list?
12:36<rknol>krinn: my system is as good as fresh, so i guess you just don't get freebsd ;-)
12:36<krinn>rebenwardy sort by Highest/lowest cargor rating and click the bus icon to filter only bus station
12:38<krinn>nobody should run from a user directory that isn't his, if it's not a mess, then i will never put my hands on freebsd
12:38<rubenwardy>Is this on list of companies stations?
12:38<krinn>rubenwardy, yes
12:38<rubenwardy>How do you sort?
12:39<rubenwardy>Does "sort" mean by cargo rating?
12:39<rubenwardy>So that progress bar is rating?
12:39<krinn>on that pick it's set to name, you can change rating
12:40<rubenwardy>is "PS" == passenger?
12:40<krinn>and the "progress bar" is cargo waiting at station
12:41<rubenwardy>so red green progress bar is rating, blue is cargo (ie passengers)?
12:42<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r26012 /trunk/src (7 files in 3 dirs) (2013-11-16 17:41:57 UTC)
12:42<@DorpsGek>-Add: new goal type that show a story page when clicked
12:42<krinn> answer all
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12:52<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26013 /trunk (known-bugs.txt src/station_cmd.cpp) (2013-11-16 17:52:00 UTC)
12:52<@DorpsGek>-Revert (r25495) [FS#5684]: Having trains miss a platform that is just being modified is less of a problem than having trains stop twice without moving.
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12:55<rubenwardy>If I have a shared order for buses, and want to make a timetable, if I do autofill for one, will it share with the rest?
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13:10<rubenwardy>In order to stop the buses clunking, after setting a timetable, do I put them all back in the depo and start them all again at the same time?
13:13<Zuu>You will want to set different schedule start times for each bus.
13:13<Zuu>Add some buffer in the time table so that bussas can catch up delay
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13:14<Zuu>And it is also best to ensure that you release the busses in the right order compared to their start time sequence as they don't take over automatically to fix this if you release them in the wrong order.
13:16<krinn>never use it, but any delay disturb time table setting? like a train at crossing, or do they resync with the timetable themselves?
13:20<krinn>got my answer : tune a little slack time to allow them to catch up after delays.
13:21<frosch123>i still think that it is more clever to only timetable loading times, never travel times
13:22<Zuu>That is what I end up doing most times in OpenTTD.
13:22<krinn>a load for 1 min than goes asap to next station with what you could have get?
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13:29<frosch123>krinn: the idea is that every road vehicle blocks the station, so the vehicle behind it cannot start loading
13:29<frosch123>so, when it leaves the next one will wait at least the timetable time, before it continues
13:30<krinn>ok, waiting even if full so
13:30<frosch123>without timetabling and without fullload, rv usualy clump up, because the closer a vehicle is following another vehicle, the less cargo will there be to load, and thus the faster it will follow again
13:31<rubenwardy>I have too many buses to keep the view ports open, is there a way of showing them in a list, that displays if they are broken down, or late?
13:31<frosch123>there are vehicle lists
13:31<frosch123>per company, per station
13:31<frosch123>or per shared orders
13:32<krinn>better use groups
13:32<frosch123>if you are a new player, you should read up on "shared orders"
13:32<frosch123>they simplify a lot
13:32<rubenwardy>I am using shared order
13:33<frosch123>both station views and the order list have a vehicle button in the bottom right corner
13:33<frosch123>which opens a list of vehicles
13:33<rubenwardy>The problem with the road vechicle list, is that it is too big in width because of the group filter bar
13:34<frosch123>ctrl+click the rv list button, to get a list without groups
13:34<rubenwardy>Thank you
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13:38<Bloody_Mikey>how do i start AI?
13:38<Bloody_Mikey>on a company
13:39<krinn>start_ai nameofai
13:39<krinn>list_ai to see what ai version you have
13:40<Bloody_Mikey>okey but that ai i did start did not do anything
13:40<krinn>it depend on the AI, doing nothing might be a wanted feature
13:41<krinn>also depend on settings: disallow aircraft vehicle will stuck an ai that use only aircraft, disallow any vehicle will stuck all ai...
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13:44<@Alberth>also some AIs take a long time to compute stuff before they start building
13:45<krinn>and newgrf affect them too
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26014 /trunk/src/lang (7 files) (2013-11-16 18:45:43 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:46<@DorpsGek>polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
13:46<@DorpsGek>romanian - 15 changes by tonny
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:46<@DorpsGek>slovak - 4 changes by Milsa
13:46<@DorpsGek>swedish - 1 changes by Joel_A
13:49<Taede>25 years of circling round a truck depot on a single tank of fuel. not bad for an airplane designed in 1954
13:49<@Alberth>give those pax a break, I am sure they'd be glad to feel the ground now :)
13:50<frosch123>Taede: depends on the wind conditions
13:50<Taede>its just pilots in the plane
13:50<@Alberth>with a LOT of food, apparently :p
13:50<Taede>i just forgot to turn that game off
13:50<krinn>worth their ticket price
13:50<Taede>either that, or they turned into zombies
13:51<@Alberth>they had auto-pilots in 1954?
13:51<krinn>after snake on a plane, zombies won't shock me
13:51<krinn>Alberth, the blowing doll from "is there a pilot"
13:52<@Alberth>that would be feasible :p
13:52<Taede>very precise flying for an autopilot, nearly exactly square
13:53<Taede>also im 37mil in the red, shouldnt i have gone bankrupt before now?
13:53<krinn>nope, look at greece
13:54<@Alberth>after 25 years, it understands the trick :p
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13:56<krinn>but true with no maintenance, zombi pilot and no fuel, you shouldn't goes red with a 0 running cost aircraft
13:57<Taede>actually i had basecostmod loaded
13:57<frosch123>Alberth: you are quite off
13:57<frosch123>the first autopilot for aircraft existed in 1912
13:57<Taede>it costs me 1.25mil a year to run an aircraft
13:57<@Alberth>:o very early thus!
13:57<Taede>oh, i heard about that
13:58<Taede>they walked on wings to demonstrate that the pilot wasnt actually doing anything, right?
13:58<@Alberth>Taede: but this is not a normal aircraft, it has been flying for 25 years non-stop. You need to maintain it while flying
13:59<Taede>then why is it valued at only £750,- ?
14:00<krinn>i suppose any zombi inside lower its value
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14:33<@Alberth>hi hi
14:33<Zuu>Hello planetmaker
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14:59<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26015 /trunk/src (3 files) (2013-11-16 19:59:06 UTC)
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14:59<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: some constificaton
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15:08<rubenwardy>I love this game
15:11<rubenwardy>I have a dual track layout, but if a train is on one side, another can not join it, even though they are going the same direction
15:11<rubenwardy>(i am using one way lights)
15:12<rubenwardy>Ie: there can only be one train on each side at a time
15:15<rubenwardy>also, would the station work as expected with no collision?
15:15<@planetmaker>rubenwardy, you know the difference between path and block signals?
15:15<rubenwardy>Or do I need to use that special signals
15:15<@planetmaker>those look all like block signals. Try path signals
15:16<rubenwardy>on the one way, or the platform as well?
15:18<@planetmaker>rubenwardy, one-wayblock signals never can be passed from the backside
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15:18<rubenwardy>so ctrl and click with another signal to change to one way path?
15:20<@planetmaker>is it a terminus station? Or a through-station?
15:20<@planetmaker>stop all trains. delete all signals
15:20<alluke>i see 90° turn too
15:21<@planetmaker>place a one-way path signal on the field *before* the junction for trains going to the station
15:21<@planetmaker>place two-way path signals facing the station immediately adjacent to it
15:22<@planetmaker>place the first signal on the track going away from the station at a distance of one train length to the junction
15:22<@planetmaker>alluke, that doesn't matter. 90° turn is allowed by default
15:24<alluke>should not
15:24<alluke>id remove the whole feature
15:24<rubenwardy>Where is the 90 turn?
15:25<@planetmaker>a train leaving the station from the lower track, heading to the left
15:25<rubenwardy><planetmaker> place two-way path signals facing the --- is that after the cross?
15:25<@planetmaker>immediately adjacent to the station
15:25<@planetmaker>between junction and station. signals facing station
15:25<alluke>id fix your layout like this
15:25<@planetmaker>rubenwardy, but read wiki on signals as well
15:26<@planetmaker>it explains basic station signaling :-)
15:26<@planetmaker>and has images
15:26<@planetmaker>which I don't
15:26<__ln__>oh no, does that filename come from the finnish translation?
15:27<alluke>its the default screenshot name
15:28<alluke>a bit long but i cba to invent something shorter
15:28<__ln__>it's been translated without understanding what the arguments are
15:28<alluke>its not openttd screenshot name
15:29<alluke>i took it with the system app
15:29<alluke>easier and faster
15:29<rubenwardy>are those one way path signals:
15:29<@planetmaker>easier and faster than ctrl+s? nah
15:29<__ln__>i see. well, good for openttd, but it's still translated wrong.
15:29<alluke>cmd shift 4, drag and drop the area and it pops onto the desktop
15:30<rubenwardy>Because when I try to place them they are not lights
15:30<__ln__>just apple's quality control is to be blamed this time
15:30<@planetmaker>rubenwardy, select the signal you want to place from the signal picker. or use ctrl+click to cycle through
15:31<rubenwardy>On the wiki there is two icons to make signal, do I place the first then ctrl-click the second?
15:31<rubenwardy>or does it mean this or this
15:32<rubenwardy>for your help
15:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26016 /trunk/src (3 files) (2013-11-16 20:32:55 UTC)
15:33<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: prepare for some class renames
15:34<alluke>i wonder when google finds out that google+ is a failed product and they shut it down
15:34<rubenwardy>Yet again, when it says X and Y signals in the table, do I place one then the other?
15:35<frosch123>alluke: whining about yt?
15:36<frosch123>watched tb's vlog?
15:36<alluke>or tl;dw
15:37<frosch123>nah, i am not good enough at rambling for a tl;dw :)
15:37<alluke>30 mins
15:37<alluke>aint got time fo dat
15:38<frosch123>oh, i think first 10 are enough
15:40<alluke>first minute has been nonsense
15:40<LordAro>TB is usually quite intelligent
15:42<@Rubidium>oh... not *THE* TB :(
15:42<@planetmaker>confused the hell out of me :-)
15:43<alluke>why bar djs refuse to play scooter :(
15:43<LordAro>both TBs are quite intelligent ;)
15:43<frosch123>well, at least the like-bar is blue/red again :p
15:48<@planetmaker>that guy really talks himself into rage :D
15:50<frosch123>yup, he is good at shouting at people on the internet
15:50<frosch123>even so good that he is succesful with it :p
15:50<@planetmaker>sounds like
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15:58<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26017 /trunk/src (gfx_layout.cpp gfx_layout.h) (2013-11-16 20:57:54 UTC)
15:58<@DorpsGek>-Change: allow the fallback and ICU layouter to exist in unison
15:58<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5711]: crash when the ICU layouter thinks a font is corrupted
15:59<alluke>does dorpsgek ape everything that is made to openttd
15:59<andythenorth>what do you think?
15:59<alluke>i dont know
16:01<rubenwardy>Can some one show me a screenshot of what one way path signals should look like
16:01<rubenwardy>Are they lights, or sophomores?
16:01<alluke>its the rightmost signal on hte list
16:02<alluke>both light and semaphore
16:02<@planetmaker>you didn't read the link on building signals :-( It lists them all. With image. Both semaphore and light
16:02<rubenwardy>So it is or
16:03<rubenwardy>You did not answer my question
16:03<rubenwardy>Yet again, when it says X and Y signals in the table, do I place one then the other?
16:03<rubenwardy><rubenwardy> Yet again, when it says X and Y signals in the table, do I place one then the other?
16:03<alluke>nsfw ottd would be fun
16:03<alluke>at 2050 it would show porn instead of the winners list
16:03<Supercheese>I think George's Long Vehicles may have that covered
16:04<Supercheese>although it begins long before 2050
16:04<andythenorth>it's not as though porn is unavailable elsewhere :P
16:04<frosch123>didn't lordaro have some heightmap?
16:05<@planetmaker>rubenwardy, I read the words but don't understand what you ask
16:05<rubenwardy>There were two images
16:05<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26018 /trunk/src (3 files) (2013-11-16 21:05:26 UTC)
16:05<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: since there's a wrapper for ICU functions now, we can use proper coding style for names again
16:05<rubenwardy>I meant in the question do you place the first one on the track
16:05<rubenwardy>then the second one on the same square
16:06<rubenwardy>but obvously not, it is you can use this one or this one.
16:06<frosch123>light signals and semaphores are just visual appearance
16:06<frosch123>if you mean that
16:06<frosch123>they work the same, just look different
16:06<rubenwardy>basically the question was do the signals need to be combined on the same square, and the answer is no.
16:07<alluke>yt livestreams always have so quiet sound
16:07<@planetmaker>one square. one signal type
16:08<rubenwardy>Does a path signal == "two-way path signals"
16:09<@planetmaker>except when it's stated explicitly 'one-way path signal'
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16:15*andythenorth -> bed
16:15<andythenorth>good night
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16:18<rknol>okay so
16:18<rknol>where do i obtain the osx universal builds of older openttd versions
16:18<rknol>and source
16:19<rknol>because i can't get the latest to build on freebsd at all
16:19<frosch123>what's the relation between osx and freebsd?
16:20<rknol>frosch123: i want to run the server on freebsd
16:20-!-rubenwardy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:20<rknol>and play it on my macbook pro
16:20<alluke> ive had this in mind for sooo long :D
16:21<@planetmaker>svn co svn://
16:21<rknol>thanks planetmaker
16:22<Supercheese>OTTD drugs & alcohol edition
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16:22<@planetmaker>sounds like a newgrf idea, Supercheese :-P
16:22<Supercheese>somehow I don't see it being very popular
16:22<alluke>would make a great industry set
16:22<Supercheese>well, I've already got the cop cars ;)
16:23<alluke>transport ho's to brothels
16:23<@Alberth>why? is transport of illegal stuff in openttd more exciting than normal stuff?
16:23<alluke>fields would grow pot
16:23<@Alberth>there are no cops in openttd to stop you
16:23<@planetmaker>with game scripts and proper newgrfs - maybe :-)
16:23<@planetmaker>a GS can act as incredibly unmerciful cop ;-)
16:23<@planetmaker>fine: 10M
16:23<@planetmaker>fine: 2 trains
16:24<Supercheese>Meth lab production: 0
16:24<@planetmaker>lol. You watched too much Breaking Bad
16:24<frosch123>planetmaker: we need an api function for "ignore next signal" :p
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16:24<Supercheese>"This industry has been shut down by the police"
16:24<@Alberth>nah, Meth lab production: -1
16:24<@planetmaker>frosch123, easy: remove signals works just the same ;P
16:24<@Alberth>now you have to reverse the transport :)
16:24<@planetmaker>(and re-build afterwards)
16:24<Supercheese>can GS clear/destroy tiles?
16:25<frosch123>planetmaker: how evil :p
16:25<frosch123>randomly replace signals with different ones
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16:25<@planetmaker>lol. That's even more evil
16:25<frosch123>switching driving direction
16:25<@Alberth>add tracks :)
16:27<@planetmaker>un-electrify track :-)
16:28<alluke>firs has already alcohol production
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>1946, russian occupation, remove all electrifications and electric engines?
16:29<alluke>add-on grf would be nice
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>will that GS get an "R" rating then?
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>for "too realistic"? :p
16:29<krinn>well Eddi|zuHause actually with the price of copper, people kept stole them them here
16:29<alluke>wwii grf u say?
16:30<alluke>i have one idea for that but i aint going to say it
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16:30<krinn>so you don't need russian when crisis strike
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: usually what is stolen is the grounding
16:30<frosch123>easy to do, just make an admin script that executes "restart"
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>i have rarely heard of anyone stealing actual catenary (while powered)
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: like the berlin S-Bahn?
16:32<frosch123>stealnig powered catenary is harder, because it it noticed quicker
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: the 2008 maintenance crisis (too heavy "economical" optimisation) shut down the main east-west trunk line for weeks, which neither WWII nor the cold war managed
16:32<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, they have no limits, including dying making it
16:33<alluke>what about stealing rails
16:33<krinn>rails are heavy
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: actually that did happen
16:33<krinn>and rails aren't made of copper no?
16:33<@planetmaker>also rail sleepers are heavy...
16:33<alluke>no sleepers
16:33<alluke>theyre worth nothing
16:34<alluke>steel can be sold
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>guys were caught loading rails from a switchyard onto a truck
16:34<@planetmaker>had to remove some today and put them in the dumpster... damn heavy
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>when the police arrived, the guys were gone, but the truck was registered to one of the guys, so they caught them
16:34<krinn>look at that, better than gold
16:34<alluke>new catastrophe?
16:34<krinn>(as not as rare as gold and easy to steal)
16:34<alluke>few rail tiles would disappear
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>steel is pretty expensive now as well
16:35<alluke>what about sucking diesel from trucks?
16:35<krinn>alluke, and pay taxes, nah
16:35<alluke>i mean as catastrophe
16:36<alluke>like stealing rails
16:36<krinn>a new catastrophe for ottd ?
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>can GS issue arbitrary news messages?
16:36<krinn>let have a vehicle been recalled like in life
16:36<alluke>introduction in 2010 for example
16:36<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, yes anytime the GS wish
16:37<alluke>called thiefs
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>i should make a "realistic" central europe scenario/gs
16:37<krinn>date triggered news ?
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>what might be useful is cutting arbitrary links in cargodist
16:38<alluke>chase & status concert fail
16:38<@Rubidium>planetmaker: they can't be that heavy; only like 50-60 kg/m
16:39<alluke>truck and crane is enough to steal good amount of steel
16:39<alluke>and something to cut the rails
16:40<krinn>i'm not sure anyone is interrest by french link to it, so to sum up: they even stole 1000m of catenary on a line
16:41<@Rubidium>it only gets you like 30 EUR/m (if you're lucky)
16:41<@Rubidium>and for that you need to unscrew 3 screws on average a meter, and need a pretty big saw to cut it
16:41<krinn>30000eur for a night have a job that beat that ?
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>well if you unload a 5t load?
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>that's about 100m, ao 3000€
16:43<krinn>30 eur/m = 1000m
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>but you have to move it out of country, because our scrapyards will check the markings
16:43<@Rubidium>30 eur/m for the rail
16:43<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: do they?
16:43<alluke>steal something that can chew the steel into small pieces
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: at least that's what the newspapers write
16:43<frosch123>usually you drive in with your truck, and drive out again
16:43<@Rubidium>even though copper is more expensive, you get must less per meter
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: depends if you raise suspicions
16:44<frosch123>while driving over the scale
16:44<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, processing copper won't look from when it comes if you offer them half price cable
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes. of the scrapyard guy is "not honest" :p
16:44<krinn>anyway, they kept stole them, so i suppose they don't have much of trouble to sell them, because they work on quantity
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>steal in hannover, drive 300km to poland, sell there... nobody asks questions
16:45<krinn>-> €30 million a year in stolen cables
16:46<@Rubidium>krinn: based on what source?
16:46<@planetmaker>Rubidium, yeah. Unfortunately they seem to have a length of like 2 to 3 metres :)
16:46<krinn>Rubidium, sorry i was copy/pasting it
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: i wouldn't trust those "damage" statistics
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>it's as reliable as "copyright violation" damages or "street value" of drugs
16:47<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, sure they can push a bit of other losts within it, but really we keep seeing stolen cable on news
16:47<@Rubidium>krinn: to me that reads like "reduce 30 million of costs caused by thieves", instead of "value of stolen stuff = 30 million"
16:48<@Rubidium>just stealing one meter of cable can costs thousands of euros
16:48<krinn>Rubidium, yeah, but it could be worste then, i don't think sncf paid really their cable at pure copper price with the manufacturing
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>numbers like this are easily exaggerated by factor 10-100
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>or completely made up
16:48<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, still a 3 million/year
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: 3 million for a company that makes 1billion PROFIT each year?
16:49<krinn>when i told you it's national sport here, it is really
16:49<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, sure it's nothing, but 3 million for thiefs is not that little for them
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16:49<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, but the lost cable = trains are stuck :)
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>have 3000 thieves, each thieve makes 1000€
16:50<krinn>and SNCF don't need help to have stuck train, they do that themselves already pretty well
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>assume groups of 3, makse 1000 thefts a year, or 3 per day
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think it's really paying off unless you're organized crime or really desperate
16:51<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, i'll try to find a value of one attack, but they don't like say how much they stole
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: sure, there may be a handful of really heavy ones
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>but they don't make that much on the statistical level
16:53<krinn> lol even made a stats on copper price/stolen attack
16:53<krinn>(note that this include abord attacks)
16:53<krinn>so not all succeed
16:54<@Rubidium>looks like they only steal when the weather is nice
16:54<krinn>lol weather is always nice here
16:54<krinn>south part
16:55<@Rubidium>yeah, I remember that nice weather from last time I was there
16:55<krinn>where did you go ?
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>so krinn just volunteered to host the r26k party? :p
16:56<alluke>when will 1.4.0 come out
16:56<frosch123>2014-14-14 maybe
16:57<krinn>i'm 3 steps from mediterranean sea if you want jump in
16:57<alluke>not this year?
16:58<krinn>google maps "la seyne sur mer"
16:59<krinn>but toulon should be more known
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: no, that is DBSetXL 0.9
17:00<frosch123>i wonder whethere something would be released on 2013-12-11
17:00<krinn>no xmas release ?
17:00<@Rubidium>krinn: june 2010
17:00<krinn>2010 a bit late
17:01<krinn>oh time when you were in south france ?
17:01<@Rubidium>I was actually in Andora (Italy), but had to go, by train, via Nice and Marseille back home
17:02<krinn>hope you enjoy the weather, always warm and shiny
17:02<frosch123>rb was in the news for beating up a conductor or so iirc
17:03<alluke>rebecca black?
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>was it a friday? :p
17:05<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, they arrest a traffic and get back : 180 tonnes of copper!
17:05<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, not really the 2-3 thiefs hu
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: need more than 3 people and a 5t truck for that :p
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>and i did say "unless organized crime"
17:06<krinn>yep, and it was what cops gets back, not what they stole
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17:07<krinn>sncf report 35millions for 2011, i suppose 30millions is kinda better now
17:08<krinn>even i do actually thinks too they boost the number every year
17:09<alluke>east europe should be enclosed :P
17:09<alluke>except estonia
17:13<krinn>and sncf time ago has tried to be an internet provider
17:13<krinn>jesus, glad i didn't took that offer!
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17:15<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: that didn't work out well the last time :p
17:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26019 trunk/config.lib (2013-11-16 22:17:02 UTC)
17:17<@DorpsGek>-Fix: copy-paste error in configure help
17:18<@Rubidium>krinn: if 40 cm of rain in one day is shiny, then yes... you had beatiful weather during that month in the south of France
17:19<alluke>in here its cold wet and dark :(
17:19<krinn>Rubidium, bad luck :)
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17:23<krinn>we range from 100-190mm when north part can goes upto 2000mm of rain / year
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17:30<@Rubidium>krinn: so you have about 20% of the rain of a year next monday and tuesday?
17:30<frosch123>hmm, so your lowest temperature is higher than my lowest
17:31<krinn>Rubidium, that's average / year rubidium: and yes, most part we get is in winter, and exceptionally other season, you were really unlucky
17:34<@Rubidium> doesn't seem to fit with your numbers
17:35<krinn>well we're blue, so 1-500mm (can't really see the range)
17:35<krinn>and most part in white in fact
17:35<frosch123>that is about the same colour everywhere
17:35<@Rubidium>but the north of france is in the same range
17:36<krinn>well, go to paris, you'll see if they don't have rain there
17:36<@Rubidium>that seems to imply 500-900 for SE France
17:36<+glx>no rain for now ;)
17:36<krinn>i'll be 616 so
17:37<krinn>58 days average rain
17:37<+glx>but it's cold outside
17:37<krinn>from 365...
17:37<krinn>glx you're from paris ?
17:37<krinn>like 99% of parisien :)
17:38<@Rubidium>there's nowhere in France which has 10 times more rain, maybe barely 2 times more rain and a few percent less. Nothing close to the ranges you mentioned
17:38<krinn><- born arpajon (essonne)
17:38<krinn>Rubidium, ask glx : bretagne is nearly always under rain
17:39<+glx>that's totally false
17:39<@Rubidium>krinn: that's a just a feeling
17:39<+glx>windy for sure
17:39<krinn>and cold
17:40<+glx>I'd say temperate
17:40<@Rubidium>if someone may whine, then it's maybe Belugas
17:40<+glx>not too cold in winter, not too hot in summer
17:41<@Rubidium>(163 days of rain)
17:41<krinn>where is he?
17:41<+glx>but is from france
17:41<krinn>159 Brest
17:41<@Rubidium>oh... I'll complain as well
17:42<krinn>159 days under rain isn't that half a year so ?
17:42<@Rubidium>184 days, apparantly...
17:42<+glx>you can get all seasons in one day ;)
17:43<alluke>snow too?
17:43<+glx>yeah snow on morning and rain after
17:44<krinn>need to be at near 0C for snow no ?
17:44<@Rubidium>though... it's all statistics I fear
17:45<krinn>kinda hard to lives in all those places to check everyday if stats lie :)
17:45<@Rubidium>might very well be that 80% of the cold wintery days are seen as "raining" because it's so hazy that droplets form or so
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17:46<@Rubidium>in any case, in the last half year there were maybe 2 or 3 days that I used an umbrella
17:46<@Rubidium>and apparantly on ~90 other days as well
17:46<krinn>lmao i don't an umbrella
17:47<krinn>and it's hard to find where to buy one here
17:47<frosch123>i never had an umbrella when i was living more northern
17:48<frosch123>i always had a hood
17:48<@Rubidium>it's also difficult to buy an umbrella in Japan, unless it rains. Then they are almost everywhere
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>i was at a restaurant once and it started to rain heavily and nobody had an umbrella with hin, and the restaurant guy said "we have like 10 leftovers that nobody ever picked up, just take them"
17:48<frosch123>but then i learned that in the south it can be warm while raining
17:48<frosch123>so, jackets are not suitable
17:49<@Rubidium>anyhow, most of the time 'rain' here is merely drizzle
17:49<krinn>the rainy days here, it's like a lot of rain falling and it stops just like it starts minutes later
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, southwest germany is a lot warmer than elsewhere :p
17:49<+glx>krinn: we call it a shower ;)
17:50<krinn>:) true
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17:50<Eddi|zuHause>but yeah, i use hoods mostly
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>whenever you need an umbrella, you didn't bring it
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>i guess that's a variant of murphy's law :p
17:52<krinn>just like Rubidium trek here, never really rain, and he still manage to get rain in june!
17:53<@Rubidium>it makes me so mad, I could literally explode
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17:58<frosch123>yeah, if we make the r26k party near the sea, we should shink-wrap rb into some plastic before hand
17:58<frosch123>or better glass?
18:00<krinn>what's the party date ?
18:00<frosch123>we are waiting for your suggestions
18:00<frosch123>you're the host after all
18:01<krinn>i don't even know what a r26k party is
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>Han "Rubidium" Solo?
18:01<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Commit by rubidium :: r26019 trunk/config.lib (2013-11-16 22:17:02 UTC)
18:01<@DorpsGek>frosch123: -Fix: copy-paste error in configure help
18:01<+glx>it's similar to a r25k party ;)
18:01<frosch123>krinn: actually, we missed it :p
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>or a r20k party
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>@commit 26000
18:02<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by zuu :: r26000 trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp (2013-11-14 22:50:16 UTC)
18:02<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Add: Optional filter parameter to the 'content state' console command, to limit the content list to only content where the name match the filter
18:02<krinn>oh get it, a party when you raise a number between two letters ?
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>was three days ago
18:03<frosch123>krinn: it's just an arbitary excuse to eat some cake
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>actually it was a (r25+4)k party
18:03<krinn>now that's a party frosch123 !
18:03<Zuu>I had no idea that we were two revisions from 26k when I started to commit my two patches. I was just lucky(?) to get it :-)
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>well otherwise someone could have "stolen" it like r10k :p
18:04<+glx>but @commit doesn't work for it IIRC
18:04<+glx>@commit 10000
18:04<@DorpsGek>glx: Commit r10000 doesn't exists
18:04<krinn>glx this one (the pic) is nice
18:05<frosch123>for some reason we have no public pictures from r20k and r25+4k
18:05<@Rubidium>yeah, the cake was nice ;)
18:06<krinn>dunno for the taste, but what a work
18:06<frosch123>indeed, krinn: if you want to host, pm has excellent baking skills
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18:06<krinn>i wound't believe pm skills at bakery can do that
18:06<rknol>is there any way to fix fullscreen in osx?
18:07<zydeco>it works in nightly
18:07<+glx>yeah use a nightly
18:07<rknol>will that connect to 1.3.2 server?
18:07<zydeco>no, it won't
18:07<rknol>then that's not an option
18:07<LordAro>glx: re r10000, yeah i looked into it, and it seems TB did something strange with the svn repo to skip it ;)
18:08<LordAro>rknol: wait until april for 1.4.0 then ;)
18:08<rknol>why has this been broken since like osx lion came out?
18:08<zydeco>well, I suppose you could patch 1.3.2 with the new fullscreen
18:08<frosch123>LordAro: not only tb
18:08<frosch123>rb faked the complete history somewhat later
18:08<+glx>rknol: because apple likes to remove stuff that used to work
18:08<rknol>zydeco: building on osx is hell
18:09<zydeco>it is?
18:09<krinn>rknol, or because noone have lion?
18:09<LordAro>frosch123: the complete history?
18:09<rknol>krinn: it's been broken for years
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18:09<+glx>and OSX capable devs are rare
18:09<+glx>(or lazy)
18:09<zydeco>you just need xcode and homebrew if you want to get the deps easily
18:09<zydeco>or both
18:10<@Rubidium>at least in open source; they much more fancy writing i* Apps for money
18:10<LordAro>apple is a major contributor to clang, which is quite nice (imo, i know you don't like it)
18:10<@Rubidium>zydeco: now, tell me how to compile OS X binaries on a server without paying 10+ years of donations
18:10<LordAro>that's about the only thing though :)
18:11<+glx>Rubidium: follow TB tutorial ;)
18:11<zydeco>I was talking about building *on* osx
18:11<@Rubidium>glx: yeah, but... that doesn't work for *new* SDKs. At least since they jumped to clang
18:11<+glx>cross compiling for OSX is not an easy task
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18:12<+glx>for windows it's easy
18:12<@Rubidium>s/y/ier/ ;)
18:12<LordAro>something happened here:
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18:12<LordAro>how odd
18:12<+glx>even if our compile farm doesn't cross compile for windows
18:13<frosch123>LordAro: do you know about leap seconds?
18:13<+glx>it used to
18:14<frosch123>LordAro: or time travel? :p
18:15<zydeco>well I shall be gone
18:15<@Rubidium>that's a bug in svn something used to sync and modify the repository ;)
18:15<@Rubidium>modify as in rename /branch to /branches before some time
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18:15<@Rubidium>(for easier backtracking of stuff)
18:16<LordAro>i figured it'd be something like that
18:16<LordAro>or the nsa didn't like your commits :p
18:16<frosch123>LordAro: do you know what happened between 1582-10-05 and 1582-10-14 ?
18:17<krinn>the more commits the more datas, happy nsa
18:17<@Rubidium>frosch123: depends on the location
18:17<LordAro>frosch123: i thought it was different dates, might be different for europe
18:18<krinn>don't want duckduck this, what happen ?
18:20<LordAro>switch from julian calender to gregorian calender
18:20<krinn>oh shit i've search: europe loose 10 days
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18:21<LordAro>or whatever you Europeans call them
18:25<LordAro>frosch123: <-- yup, different dates
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18:32<alluke>all the idlers out at once
18:32<Zuu>frosch123: hehe
18:32<Zuu>Given that GS run asynchronus and may take time to respond, I plan to make the submit button disable all the element and send an event to the GS. The GS then can re-enable the input elements if it want to allow user to submit the form again.
18:32<frosch123>Zuu: a submit button feels weird in the story book
18:32<frosch123>it's not a question window
18:32<frosch123>it's a static window with text
18:32<Zuu>How would you approach chapter selection in a tutorial then?
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18:32<Zuu>Having a submit button which by default disable the form for future input makes it kind of linear.
18:32<Zuu>Eg. after submitting the form, the GS can add a new page depending on what the user selected.
18:32<frosch123>well, what state does it display?
18:32<frosch123>can you switch pages? does it reset the input entries if you did not submit?
18:32<Zuu>The input data is stored in the page element data which is stored in the save game.
18:32<Zuu>So you can switch pages forward/backward and the input data is stored.
18:32<frosch123>so, the input entry triggers processing by the gs immediately?
18:32<frosch123>without any submit button
18:32-!-mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
18:33<frosch123>or is the button just a method to trigger an event? independent of the other entries?
18:33<frosch123>you need to sync the entries across clients though
18:33<Zuu>You could leave it out and make individual items send events. However, then the GS does not know when you are ready with inputs.
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18:33<frosch123>so, you can as well notify the gs about the entries
18:34<frosch123>well, that's the difference between the story book with static entries, and a question window
18:34<frosch123>in a question window you can enter anything, but it only takes effect when you press a button
18:34<krinn>hmmm kinda miss the speak, storypage change ?
18:34<frosch123>input elements in the storypage either have to take effect immediately, or you need to discard them somehow
18:35<Zuu>You are right that I need to think more on how to sync over network than I had though so far.
18:37<Zuu>However, I think from user point of view, having a submit button makes it clear that you send your input to the GS. The input fields will be disabled from more input (and be painted differently to indicate this). This is so that the user should know that it may expect some delay until the GS responds.
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18:37<frosch123>yeah, but i wonder whether that should be a different window then
18:37<krinn>Why not use the Goal.Question?
18:38<frosch123>maybe the storybook could only have button controls
18:38<Zuu>krinn: It doesn't support more than 3 answers and they must be one of 3 pre defined values.
18:38<Eddi|zuHause> <Zuu> @logs <- you have to be careful with that, as it only works if SpBot happens to be on the "correct" side of the netsplit :p
18:38<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it is in this case
18:39<frosch123>second netsplit only included lordaro, sacro and such weirdos :p
18:39<Zuu>Also, I did wait on responding to frosch123 until the netsplit was over.
18:39<LordAro>frosch123: nono, it contained you :p
18:39<frosch123>LordAro: in both cases you were on the minority site
18:40<krinn>i think it should be GS event
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: so you need an "input box" for other kind of inputs like strings?
18:40<LordAro>frosch123: *correct
18:40<frosch123>hmm, maybe not in the first one, it was kind of 60/60
18:41<krinn>and another event send back from GS that uncheck the submit button: so until GS send the event, button is stuck pushed
18:41<frosch123>hmm, if you want to make the input more interactive, i gueess gs have to learn about specific clients
18:41<frosch123>you cannot popup a window on a specific client only currently
18:41<frosch123>it's only company based
18:42<frosch123>but i guess gs don't have the latency for interactive stuff anyway :s
18:42<krinn>(to avoid maniac clickers)
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: in that case only the "window is shown" bit should be client-based, all other content should be synchronized between all clients of the company
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18:44<Eddi|zuHause>and then something needs to be done to handle conflicting inputs
18:44<Zuu>A tutorial style GS that can focus most/all resources on scanning for events, can give a response in matter of 0-1.5 seconds. Many other GS:es will often take longer to respond.
18:46<krinn>if people want to speak to the GS, they knows the GS have its tasks to do, and answer when it can, i don't see a problem there
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, just fill the new storybook page with "Calculating... (356/1124)
18:47<+glx>krinn: never trust the users
18:47<krinn>glx: hence my suggest that GS trigger event to unlock the pushed state of the submit
18:47<Zuu>But it may be that adding more advanced questions to the story book is the wrong path. Maybe GSGoal.Question need an extended brother which allow abritary amount of answer options. Though to render that you may end up with something similar to the story book :-p
18:49<Zuu>It depends on how you see it. If questions to your company is seen as part of the company story or not.
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: that may be possible, in the storybook have a button "answer this question" which pops up a question window, and closing that window will submit the data
18:49<Zuu>If a GS don't like to spam the story book with questions, it can remove the page when it is done with it.
18:50<krinn>i think the goal.question do the task, adding question to storybook and people may just never see them
18:50<frosch123>Zuu: maybe Forms can be defined independent, and then question and/or storybook pages can include Form references :p
18:51<Zuu>A nice thing with the Story Book (when the tutorial eventually get migrated to it) is that you can move it to where you want it on the screen, and then it stays there. For things that open a new window for every thing users will need to live with having it in the centre of the screen.
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18:51<frosch123>but either way: i think the data needs to be discarded if the page becomes invisbile
18:52<frosch123>the form could encode all content into some json string which can be send via a signle submit command
18:52<Zuu>So, store input data in the gui window class, and upon submit send it to the GS.
18:53<krinn>that's what browser do
18:53<frosch123>yeah, i think so. some kind of one-time-use form. locked after submit on all clients. the gs then has to delete it, and either add some static content, or recreate the form
18:53<krinn>better make submit form only company base
18:53<frosch123>but we need some better way to submit commands
18:54<frosch123>p1 and p2 just don't cut it :p
18:54<krinn>a global submit form and you must handle player1 typing "that" and player2 keep delete it to type "this"
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>interactive stuff really should be client-based, not company-based
18:54<frosch123>and if you want to display multiple strings, you are completely lost
18:54<Zuu>I saw that the last copy-paste patch in the development forum abuse the text parameter to send the whole copy buffer in a DoComand.
18:54<frosch123>yeah, but the text param is not particulary long either
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>is there a limit?
18:55<+glx>packet size I guess
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>packet size doesn't really matter for TCP
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>if data is larger than MTU, it just gets split into several packets
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>and transparently reassembled at the other end
18:57<Zuu>An alternative form solution is that when a input form element is clicked on any client, a DoCommand is used to update that data on all clients. At this moment a GS could probe the data to detect the form state. However, when the submit button is clicked, the form is locked and an event is sent to the GS.
18:58<Zuu>Then each client on the same company get synchronized (the submit button nedes to be a DoCommand too). And the amonut of data to send in each DoCommand is low.
18:59<krinn>but updating just a drop down list selection will send docommand on all client no?
19:00<krinn>and what when 2 clients try to pickup a diff choice in that drop down list
19:00<Zuu>A GS author can then if he/she wish omitt the submit button if the form control is more or less used as a setting rather than data that you send in a form.
19:00<Zuu>If two clients tries to do different things in the same tick, then just one of them wins.
19:01<+glx>like for new vehicle preview
19:01<Zuu>If there are more than one client on the same company, they will need to use chat to decide what to do.
19:02<frosch123>hmm, but you are right about the storybook
19:02<frosch123>the question window is kind of stupid in multiplayer
19:02<frosch123>because it popups on all clients
19:02<frosch123>in the storybook the initiative to enter something comes from the player
19:03<krinn>frosch123, wouldn't change, as the GS would need to popup the storybook if it expect an answer, it should show a question is asked
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19:04<frosch123>krinn: not necessary. it can have multiple pages, and you can reopen it, and choose a page to enter something
19:04<frosch123>from potential mutiple pages with entries
19:04<krinn>no question asked, no answer given, and without showing it, the question is not really asked, just wrote
19:05<krinn>frosch123: then your question is delay until the user open the storybook and see a question exists
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19:05<frosch123>well, you kind of have the option to not answer a question :)
19:05<frosch123>resp. choose from multiple questions
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19:06<Eddi|zuHause>random unrelated idea: a GS->NewGRF interface: NewGRFs get a "GS callback", the GS can call this with 32 bit parameter, the NewGRF has the GS short-ID in extra_callback_info1 and the 32bit data in extra_callback_info2
19:07<frosch123>and who shall use that?
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
19:07<krinn>a GS that want change param of a newGRF
19:07<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: Does that callback return a value back to GS?
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: either 15bit callback result or "callback failed"
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: or possibly 32bit via a 0x100+ register
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if the latter was ever implemented
19:09<Zuu>Recently a specialised GS for FIRS was released. It could perhaps use that to implement some wishes from andy (as long as he cooperate)
19:09<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i think you are better off defining a fixed interface, rather than a generic binary data exchange
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19:10<Eddi|zuHause>imagine something like the "offer each company a different set of engines" idea
19:11<krinn>per exemple i see FIRS output 3t per 8t manufacturing supplies delivered, and a GS would be able to alter that ratio
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>the GS could first query the newgrf how many sets it would provide, then ask the company the question who wants which set
19:11<frosch123>krinn: globally or per industry?
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>and then use this callback to decide which engine would be in which set
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>(call the callback with each engine id)
19:12<krinn>frosch123, i don't know, per industry will allow finer control
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: i don't think you can alter parameters at that stage anymore, only "storage" (which is more limited in scope)
19:13<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: well, neither newgrf nor gs can restrict engiens per company
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19:13<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but it could be implemented for GS
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19:14<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think it would be fairly easy to do
19:14<Zuu>There is a FS task about that with a proposal that was discussed some time ago.
19:14<Zuu>I think I even got some code started for it.
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: game has already a bitmask for each company, but only sets the values "nobody", "only one" or "all"
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: a GS taking control over prototypes and availability would just need to set this bitmask
19:15<krinn>i suppose newGRF can see what company query it no ? (to gave a color if company1 is building a vehicle or color2 for company2...)
19:16<frosch123>there are company colors
19:16<frosch123>what's the relation? :p
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: no, recolouring is handled by the game, the newgrf just returns a list of different colours
19:16<Zuu>FS task: (it discuss mainly callback vs API)
19:17<krinn>i was wondering if newGRF can knows what company is doing action on it
19:18<krinn>and if yes, it can then allow/disallow a vehicle and then a GS can send him a 15bit with 0/1 to enable that vehicle per company : you endup with the GS allowing certain vehicle or not for a company
19:18<frosch123>krinn: most of newgrf is stateless
19:18<frosch123>they do not "save" stuff
19:18<krinn>well once disallow, the newGRF state remain off, until GS resend a ON state
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the advantage of pure binary exchange is that a programmer controlling both GS and GRF developments can just use it without conflicting with anyone else's ideas
19:19<frosch123>that would be a pure gs<->ottd interface, without newgrf involvement
19:19<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, except there is not even a way to download a gs with a specific md5sum
19:19<frosch123>not for any of the involved elements to check versions or presence of the other
19:20<frosch123>anyway, you could define a mapping between parameters and string identifies via a14
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so the callback must be called in a DoCommand, so it's synchronized on all clients
19:20<Zuu>with musa it is possible to make the GS depend on the NewGRF or the other way around. Cyclic dependencies are however not supported by musa.
19:20<frosch123>so the gs chould pass a regular squirrel table variable
19:21<frosch123>and ottd can convert it to a callback, checking the validitiy of the table members, and also the callback result could be converted to a squirrel table
19:21<frosch123>Zuu: try to load a savegame where you do not have the right script version installed
19:21<frosch123>there is no "download missing scripts" option
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19:21<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: what's the use of a table if you can only exchange 32/15bit?
19:22<Zuu>frosch123: I guess, as script author I never have run into that problem.
19:22<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you have a string keyword for the variable, which defiens the format
19:22<frosch123>a newgrf can easiyl return 16 32 bit values
19:23<frosch123>you could also pass more than 2 32bit values depending on the context
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>i guess i'm missing some bits of context there
19:23<frosch123>Zuu: really? you cannot exactly load a savegame from the forums which contains ais
19:24<frosch123>if you do not already have a matching ai, it won't succeed continueing the game
19:24<frosch123>i run into that with every fs savegame
19:24<krinn>frosch123, result in loading latest version of the script
19:24<frosch123>krinn: or a random other ai
19:24<krinn>one that might not be compatible with the newgrf if the GS don't care
19:24<Zuu>frosch123: For AIs IIRC TrueBrain made it so that it picks a random AI. But maybe that has been removed due to being impopular among AI authors.
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that's quite an oversight?
19:25<frosch123>Zuu: well, for ai it does not matter much. but a gs savegame is simply broken
19:25<krinn>it load random GS if it can't find the one in the save ?
19:25<frosch123>you cannot share scenarios on the forums which use gs
19:26<Zuu>Loading random GS doesn't make much sense
19:26<frosch123>beause there is no easy way to get the right gs
19:26<Zuu>And if you share them on bananas, you need to learn musa.
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i had assumed it would work like with NewGRFs, i.e. "get ID/md5 from bananas before load"
19:26<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that part is missing
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>implement it!
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19:28<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, noone fixes the basics :)
19:28<krinn>the MD5 is not something i would like, even i see the ID usage
19:29<krinn>use the ID from the AI so any AI with that ID is loaded, so openttd can match an AI with that ID but still load the latest version found
19:29<krinn>i dunno the GetShortName to find the AI ID
19:30<frosch123>the savegame contains the script name (not the 4 byte id funnily enough) and the version (not the md5sum)
19:30<frosch123>both are things that bananas does not know about
19:31<krinn>the savegame could contain the shortname and no version, GS/AI get the savename version it use by the save, upto them to allow compatiblity
19:31<krinn>it won't crash openttd, the AI/GS will crash maybe
19:32<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: anyway, you need to get deep down into either ottd savegames, or bananas to fix that
19:32<frosch123>there are like 3 ways to identify scripts :p
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: but we have no clue whether the progammer was competent enough to get the GS/AI compatible to loading savegames made with older versions
19:32<frosch123>and everyone uses some other method
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>we also have no useful way to update a NewGRF with a "compatible" one
19:33<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, yes but unlike newGRF openttd won't crash, only the GS/AI : and if the script dev don't want his script trash by user because any newer version cannot load previous one, he will do the job
19:33<frosch123>it's like fs#5662, only worse :p
19:34<frosch123>krinn: a gs crash ruins a savegame just as well
19:34<krinn>yes, but not because of openttd
19:34<krinn>blame is on the script maker
19:34<frosch123>does not matter for the player
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>you either have developer tools deactivated, then only exact match works, or you have developer tools activated, then you can only change by removing and adding new, but this circumvents the compatibility check alltogether
19:35<frosch123>oh, indeed. without dev tools you cannot load a savegame if you do not have matching grfs
19:35<krinn>frosch123, he does as he knows who has done the shitty thing
19:35<frosch123>for gs noone checks that
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>so the "compatible version" bit of action14 is essentially useless
19:35<frosch123>you can load a savegame wihtout having the gs just fine
19:35<frosch123>it will just not work
19:36<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: why?
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the only place it's checked is when you have developer tools active and deleted the old version
19:37<frosch123>it's for singleplayer with dev disabled, and loading a savegame with "compatible" newgrf
19:37<Zuu>frosch123: If I load a game when the GS is unavailable, the game loads fine. The only way that I see that it did not find the GS is by opening the GS debug window.
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: if you manually update through the newgrf configuration window, it's never displayed whether it's compatible or not
19:37<frosch123>Zuu: all the goals and storybook stuff remains
19:37<Zuu>(which I have a hotkey for - but most users does probably not even know that it exist)
19:37<frosch123>all town texts and growth stuff remains
19:38<frosch123>so the savegame is essentially broken
19:38<Zuu>Broken but without even a notice
19:38<frosch123>yeah :p
19:38<krinn>but user can download any version of the script and the savegame became ok (if the script loading part is compatible)
19:38<frosch123>newgrf at least crash :p
19:39<frosch123>krinn: i am not even sure whether the gs name is displayed anywhere
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>the only way i have ever managed to make a newgrf crash is when modifying the file while it's loaded
19:39<Zuu>krinn: Only if the user does not save the game loaded (where no GS is found)
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>openttd open => recompile newgrf => forget to hit "reload_newgrfs" => unpause game => BANG!
19:40<Zuu>Eg. if the user load it, continue, save and then later realize that it misses the GS then he/she is lost unless he/she has the original save backed up.
19:40<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: unlink the file before modifying :p
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i have a symlink
19:40<krinn>Zuu: this won't happen if openttd kept the GS/AI shortname in the savegame
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>from newgrf/test/cets.grf to development/cets/cets.grf
19:41<krinn>Zuu: even if it is missing, previous savegame need "AAAH" when saving save script is "AAAH"...
19:41<Zuu>krinn: I'm sure there is ways to improve this. Just telling how it works right now.
19:41<Zuu>Perheps better store its uniqueid rather than just the short name.
19:42<krinn>well someone has gave me a nice hint to help debug my GS: save/load and new functions/change are there
19:42<krinn>with MD5, this won't work
19:42<frosch123>krinn: the problem is that there are like 3 names for a script. the name, the shortname and the interface name or so
19:42<frosch123>originally the short name was meant for identifying a script, and afaik that is also written in the documentation
19:42<frosch123>but funnily it is nowhere used in ottd afaik
19:42<frosch123>for some reason ottd uses the normal name everywhere
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: no, this then needs a new development function to update GS/AI mid-game
19:43<Zuu>Except for libraries where it use the GetInstanceName :-)
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: but "normal users" will never have that situation
19:43<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, until i get the reload function :P
19:43<frosch123>someone tm needs to clean that up, before "get scripts from bananas" will be anywhere near possible
19:44<Zuu>At least the shortname is enforced to be unique on bananas. But yes OpenTTD would need to store that.
19:44<krinn>and shortname usage can be enforce by GSInfo API: missing no init
19:45<krinn>i'm not sure it's not already the case
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: and then you need to figure out how to add that to the NewGRF/missing content GUI
19:46<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, when you click load game: it says companies name, it could output script name instead of companies names
19:47<Zuu>I wouldn't remove company names, but rather add info about script there
19:47<krinn>1: thatcompany (missing DCTR)
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: i mean there is a button there "show newgrfs", and in the same or a similar place it should display ALL needed content
19:48<krinn>when loading i have find missing content online, and newGRF settings
19:49<krinn>the 1st indeed show what to get to fill the gap, the other just show the one i own
19:49<krinn>script can be shown in the missing content online as well no ?
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19:52<krinn>unlike newGRF, script have info about their own save version in the savegame, allowing them to handle older savegame, hence why newer script version isn't has problematic has a newGRF that (i suppose) is blind vs a savegame
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19:52<frosch123>krinn: actually no
19:52<frosch123>newgrf have that information
19:53<frosch123>newgrf improved a lot, because incompatibility was always so severe
19:53<frosch123>scripts are lacking behind
19:54<frosch123>they are not popular enough
19:54<frosch123>or something
19:54<krinn>well, never saw openttd crash because a script doesn't load an old savegame
19:54<frosch123>exactly. but that is why newgrf improved
19:54<Zuu>The game will not crash, but the save game is broken if the GS cannot be found.
19:55<frosch123>and nowadays newgrf are better than scripts
19:55<krinn>Zuu just because openttd forget it when saving again, something it could rerecord even without the script presence to help next loading
19:55<frosch123>in 2009 scripts were better than newgrf, but since then nothing much happened about script save/load
19:56<krinn>well, i don't see what scripts need for loading? they have all they need
19:56<frosch123>krinn: just that you cannot get the right script for your save
19:57<frosch123>unless you already have it
19:57<Zuu>or unless the last one on bananas is compatible
19:57<frosch123>and if you load it with a wrong script, you do not notice, and your game is jsut ruined
19:57<Zuu>and you know which GS to download
19:58<frosch123>krinn: or take sillicon valley. i fixed some spelling erros in the description somewhen
19:58<frosch123>during that the library dependency was lost
19:58<Zuu>Ah, yes you should never edit a bananas entry
19:58<frosch123>it was not possible to readd the same library version, and the new version was incompatible or so
19:58<frosch123>so, i actually had to upload a new version, just with an dupdated version requirement for the library
19:59<krinn>well, don't blame script for bananas trouble
19:59<frosch123>sorry, but i only consider the big picture
20:00<Zuu>In the GS you can define the min version to load. When uploading you do need to care about if any of your dependencies has uploaded a new version and update your import statement. If you want to stay with old library versions, now musa can do this.
20:00<Zuu>But yes, there are many pitfalls :-)
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20:04<frosch123>night :)
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20:04<Zuu>yeah it's getting late
20:05<krinn>yeah, and tbh that pitfall can be avoid just by removing the edit button on bananas
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 17 00:00:35 2013