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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-11-17

---Logopened Sun Nov 17 00:00:35 2013
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02:16<LuHa>Hello, who can give me talk-right at ?
02:17<Supercheese>Probably people who are not awake right now, but we'll see
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03:10<LuHa>omg, sorry.
03:11<LuHa>i lost voice right in .dev :(
03:12<LuHa>can i pemerat voice right? i resister, identify by nickserv
03:12<Supercheese>Yeah, apparently if you don't register AND identify with Nickserv, the permission is only temporary
03:12<Supercheese>it's very annoying
03:15<LuHa>yeah.. i register and identify nickserv but my permission is temp..
03:47<Supercheese>there we go again, guess I have to request voice at .dev, this time I'm registered and identified, we'll see if it'll stick around
03:48<@planetmaker>you should now also be auto-voiced if you enter the channel (same with luha)
03:48<Supercheese>here's hoping
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04:06<@planetmaker>moin Alberth
04:07<@Alberth>hi hi
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04:13<Supercheese>good night
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04:23<@Alberth>is there a description of what AI and GS can do with respect to (translatable) strings ?
04:24<@planetmaker>I don't know a good one
04:25<@Alberth>zuu should know :p
04:29<@Alberth>this monthly delivery check of towns is highly annoying
04:30<@Alberth>just one day too late, and it doesn't grow :(
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05:13<Zuu>Alberth: AIs cannot use translatable strings
05:14<Zuu>GSes can, but have a subset of all translation features.
05:14<Zuu>I don't know of any wiki article or so that document what this subset is.
05:14<@Alberth>moin :)
05:14<Zuu>I tend to look in the source code for the list of {PARAM}:s and try it out if it works in GS. :-)
05:15<Zuu>Oh and hello :-)
05:15<@Alberth>ok, thanks
05:16<Zuu>I have heard that geneders and/or plurals may not work in GS, but I don't really know as I'm not too used with those concepts in the translation system.
05:18<@Alberth>untranslated AIs make sense, as players don't talk to each other normally
05:18<@Alberth>the only thing to translate is the readme
05:19<@Alberth>I haven't yet looked into the problems that may arise in adding support
05:23<Zuu>I didn't consider the readme when I saw your question.
05:23<Zuu>What may be useful is to allow settings to be translatable. (both for AIs and GS)
05:26<Zuu>That requires that the language files are loaded in the game menu. If the same way to refer to translations is used as in the game, then the GS need to be able to refer to them in the code that is executed when OpenTTD scanns for GS/AI. Thus giving an overead when scanning for AI/GS unless the GetSettings method is delayed and import of translations is also delayed.
05:28<@Alberth>ah right, settings are also interesting to translate, I agree
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06:14<krinn>Zuu> I have heard that geneders and/or plurals may not work in GS: didn't test gender, but plurals works
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06:24<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26020 /branches/1.3 (7 files in 6 dirs) (2013-11-17 11:24:39 UTC)
06:24<@DorpsGek>[1.3] -Backport from trunk:
06:24<@DorpsGek>- Fix: [Windows] Conditional expression with enumeral with non-enumeral type (r26009)
06:24<@DorpsGek>- Fix: Game script showing vehicle on e.g. a goal, then the vehicle being removed and eventually being replaced by a non-user vehicle (most likely smoke) causing an assertion to trigger [FS#5804] (r26007, r26006)
06:24<@DorpsGek>- Fix: Crash when transferring savegame from server to client [FS#5478] (r26005)
06:29<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r26021 /branches/1.3 (9 files in 3 dirs) (2013-11-17 11:29:44 UTC)
06:29<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: [1.3] -Backport from trunk:
06:29<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Crash when the ICU layouter thinks a font is corrupted [FS#5711] (r26018, r26017, r26016, r26015)
06:29<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Having trains miss a platform that is just being modified is less of a problem than having trains stop twice without moving [FS#5684] (r26013)
06:29<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: --help text of ./configure for packages that require pkg-config (r26011)
06:30<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: (...)
06:30<peter1138>Why does it start telling TrueBrain? :p
06:30<@Rubidium>I think it always does when a certain number of lines is reached
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06:43<LordAro>well, can't let him miss out on the improtant backports ;)
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06:51<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26022 /branches/1.3/src/video/cocoa ( (2013-11-17 11:51:33 UTC)
06:51<@DorpsGek>[1.3] -Fix: missing OS X headers
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07:05<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r26023 trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (2013-11-17 12:05:40 UTC)
07:05<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5805] (r25686): [OSX] Checking for a valid NSTextInputContext is supposed to fail on 10.4 according to docs, but somehow didn't, leading to a crash when an edit box lost focus.
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07:45<@planetmaker>krinn, well... if there's an excuse to bake a cake and a little time, I'm usually in ;-)
07:45<@planetmaker>speaking of it... need to deliver a cake right now :-) See you tonight
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07:53<@Rubidium>planetmaker: but... you don't know my address, so how can you deliver it?
07:58<__ln__>"rubidium, netherlands", that should do it
07:59<krinn>he's good at making cake?
08:02<krinn>ok, i think i have my answer :)
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08:08<frosch123>Alberth: ais have nothing translatable at all
08:08<frosch123>gs settings are not translatable
08:08<frosch123>gs stuff in game is translatable using similar languag efiles as ottd
08:08<frosch123>plural is supported
08:08<frosch123>genders and cases are not supported
08:09<frosch123>gs lang files are compiled using strgen
08:10<krinn>{SKIP} doesn't work but {STRING} works
08:10<krinn>{CURRENCY} doesn't work but {CURRENCY_SHORT} works
08:11<frosch123>i believe the string commands are actually exactly the same as for ottd lang files
08:11<frosch123>krinn: where are you looking?
08:12<frosch123>SKIP is deprecated and removed for long
08:12<frosch123>currency also does not exist for ages
08:12<krinn>in my own GS and that doc as ref :
08:12<frosch123> <- those are the string codes
08:13<frosch123>with the restriction of gender/cases not working for gs
08:13<frosch123>all the wiki stuff is unmaintained
08:13<@Rubidium>krinn: I don't even know that page
08:13<krinn>:P i dig where i can
08:13<@Rubidium>when was CURRENCY64 been removed?
08:14<@Alberth> created an issue for it
08:14<krinn>i avoid using any 64 as i can't know if openttd run 32 or 64 from squirrel, must assume always 32
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08:16<@Rubidium>CURRENCY64 has been gone since 2007
08:16<@Rubidium>so that page is AT LEAST 6 years out-of-date
08:16<krinn>last edit is 26 dec 2012
08:17<@Alberth>you don't really think every edit updates the entire page, do you?
08:18<krinn>of course not, but tbh, i didn't check edit page until 2s
08:18<krinn>there's no other doc, assuming this one is update then
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08:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26024 /branches/1.3 (33 files in 8 dirs) (2013-11-17 13:35:48 UTC)
08:35<@DorpsGek>[1.3] -Backport: number of prerequisites for key handling fixes/improvements
08:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26025 /branches/1.3/src (11 files in 2 dirs) (2013-11-17 13:53:33 UTC)
08:53<@DorpsGek>[1.3] -Fix: get hotkeys working again
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08:58<frosch123> <- usually the "funny pictures" on spiegel are terrible, but this one is great :)
08:59<frosch123>(sorry, german)
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09:05<LordAro>@topic get 5
09:05<@DorpsGek>LordAro: English only
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>i think the forum just died...
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>well, first it was fast, then it was slow, and then i hit a timeout on submit
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>and then frosch123 was faster than me
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09:38<peter1138>Is there ever anything interesting on there anyway?
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10:27<LordAro>planetmaker: you got a reply:
10:36<krinn>i hope someone will look at 5656, it's a badass for AI
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10:48<RainbowNines>Afternoon chaps. Anyone knocking about?
10:54<Zuu_>Based on the discussion last night about script names, I made a wiki article that documents some of the problems and proposes some solutions:
10:56<krinn>hi RainbowNines
10:56<krinn>Zuu_, going look at it
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10:56<RainbowNines>hi krinn.
10:57<frosch123>Zuu: yeah, i guess the first step would be to just save shortname and md5sum as well
10:57<frosch123>(no need to remove saving the name)
10:58<frosch123>that should give us more options for fixing stuff
10:59<Zuu>In short time, with also having md5sum we can get something up quickly that get exactly that version from bananas. With more work (verifying equal version in bananas + script), more advanced things can be acomplished
10:59<Kjetil>time to go bananas
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11:01<krinn>i still think md5 script will have the effect that openttd will load dictatorai 1.0 instead of latest from bananas: of course it will make sure that dictatorai can load this savegame, but it will force the user to only use that version.
11:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26026 trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp (2013-11-17 16:01:50 UTC)
11:01<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r25648) [FS#5775-ish]: Invalidate vehicle colour palette again when rearranging consist, reversing, ...
11:02<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26027 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2013-11-17 16:02:39 UTC)
11:02<@DorpsGek>-Change [FS#5669-ish]: [NewGRF] Invalidate vehicle colour palette when leaving a station.
11:02<krinn>and any new script version would be only used with a new game : if dctr v1 have a bug, because of the md5 mark: people even updating dctr to latest version with the fix won't have choice and play with the buggy version
11:03<Zuu>krinn: with md5sum we get a key into bananas data base. It is possible to also fetch the last version of the same content. However, it is only when the content is downloaded that OpenTTD can determine if the last version is compatible.
11:03<LordAro>lots of commits in the last couple of days :)
11:03<Zuu>Unless bananas is going to inspect the version compatibility value.
11:04<krinn>well, i speak about tagging md5 for script within savegame
11:05<Zuu>I don't speak about removing using the last compatible version.
11:05<krinn>and if openttd load "script that" or better "script unique shortname" from a save : it must reput it on saving, even the script wasn't found
11:06<Zuu>OpenTTD would use short name (like it today use name), version and compatible version to try to find the best compatible version locally. The md5sum is only used if that fails and it needs to go to the fruit store to find the script.
11:06<krinn>this will remove the "i load a scenerio" with "AATC" but don't have the script, and now that i have save it, openttd doesn't load "AATC" gamescript with it even i have provide it
11:11<Zuu>I've mentioned this problem now in the problems section on the wiki.
11:11<krinn>zuu: about lib i don't think you need to tag savegame with them: if user use "TTCC" GS that import superlib, but newer "TTCC" no more use it, openttd will try download superlib for nothing as newer "TTCC" no more use it
11:12<Zuu>I don't know really if it is good to solve it as you propose, or if it is better to just make it clear to the usre that the script couldn't be loaded and that they should obtain the script and re-load the game (without saving).
11:12<krinn>and i think if old "TTCC" don't need superlib, but newer "TTCC" this time add it as dep, openttd if i remember well, already offer to download superlib
11:13<Zuu>If script authors manage deps correctly, there is no need to have a library identifier available (either from Import() or saved in game) that can be used as a key into the bananas database.
11:14<Zuu>As I wrote in the wiki, I'm not sure that part is needed. But I brought it up as there may still be (weak) arguments to do something about it for consistency
11:15<Zuu>Also, we have seen many cases where users can't use script XYZ becauses missing libraries.
11:16<Vadtec>for trains, is it better to have big trains that wait at the stations to fill up and make massive delievries, or smaller trains that grab what they can to make small deliveries?
11:16<krinn>and if openttd target all their shortname : DCTR need SPLB - SPLB need SCP_ : try download DCTR and openttd will add SPLB and SCP_ too
11:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26028 trunk/os/windows/installer/install.nsi (2013-11-17 16:16:55 UTC)
11:17<Zuu>krinn> this will remove the "i load a scenerio" with "AATC" but don't have the script, and now that i have save it, openttd doesn't load "AATC" gamescript with it even i have provide it <--- As script author, would you like to debug problems related to changed game state over perhaps many years where the game has been running without your script active?
11:17<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5773]: make the installer warning about Windows XP SP3 not trigger on the 64 bit Windows XP which isn't really Windows XP to start with
11:17<frosch123>Vadtec: more engines have more running cost. longer trains have longer loading times which adds to the delivery time, and thus gives less income
11:18<Vadtec>frosch123: i was referring to cargo capacity rather than the number of engines, its just i have one train that doesnt seem to be making a profit either way, even though its route should be long enough to allow for full loads and a decent payout
11:18<Vadtec>its rather baffling
11:19<krinn>Zuu: that's the same if user cheat with date, and i keep doing that as debug, might cause problem for script handling time elapse by date range
11:22<krinn>Zuu: to be safer it'll be better to stop openttd loading a game with missing script yeah and directly try to manage missing dep/script
11:23<krinn>Zuu: you're right
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>breaking bad spoiler:
11:29<krinn>Zuu: how about Info::MinVersionToLoad : dctr 1.3=MinVersionToLoad==2 and dctr 1.4=MinVersionToLoad==2 mean for openttd it can use 1.4 as the save was done with a dctr version that use version 2
11:31<Zuu>Could you re-word that with a bit more explicit examples. I have a hard time trying to see what you mean with eg. "dctr 1.3=MinVersionToLoad==2"
11:34<krinn>take a user using dctrv1 using save/load version 2, user save the game. Now if user lack dctr bananas can look the latest dctr version that have MinVersionToLoad = 2 and so use that version. Bananas has found the script latest version that can load version 2 of its save format
11:35<krinn>and if dctrv2 have version = 2 compatible, if dctrv3 have version = 3 set, incompatible...
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: problem with that is bananas knows neither the version nor the min compatible version
11:35<krinn>well, bananas already read the info.nut to grab shortname version no?
11:36<@Alberth>Vadtec: shorter trains tend to arrive more often at the station, which is a plus. They also deliver the cargo faster. It does mean more trains, which adds costs.
11:36<Zuu>It is a final solution to aim at, but needs some work on bananas. Bananas do not yet inspect that property of info.nut. Also note that inspections use just text parsing. Not actual execution of code. So that means that the min compatible version must be hard coded in info.nut and not stored in a global variable.
11:36<Vadtec>Alberth: indeed, ultimately i simply removed that train and made another one stop at the troublesome station
11:36<Zuu>krinn: Bananas read info.nut to grab shortname, which is why short name cannot be stored in a global variable if you upload it to bananas. The short name is then stored in the database.
11:36<Vadtec>seems to have fixed the issue
11:37<Zuu>Eg. info.nut is only read when you upload a file, but not later.
11:37<krinn>Zuu, so it could also grab the MinVersionToLoad setting no?
11:37<@Alberth>Vadtec: but some industries just don't 'co-operate' very well, due to random variations, and extractive primary industries can only go down in production
11:37<Zuu>So if you want to start using more stuff from it, you need to make a soluton that iterates over all existing content and grab that into the database.
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11:38<Zuu>And you can grab MinVersionToLoad as long as all scripts just return a number (eg. not use a (global) variable with the value. Which may or may not be true.
11:39<Vadtec>ummmm, every one of my plains literally just changed to "stopped"
11:39<Vadtec>at least the ones that were at an airport
11:39<Vadtec>how the hell did that happen?
11:39<Zuu>But it needs someone interested in doing this work on bananas.
11:39<Vadtec>errant mouse click
11:40<krinn>what bananas use?
11:41<krinn>ok thank you, having a look at it
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: consider this case: person X updates his script on bananas, but forgot to update the min compatible version. then he fixes this by uploading the next version with higher min compatible version. now since bananas cannot delete old versions, people will now and forever get a broken version for their older savegames
11:46<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, right, but it's the author fault, and it is HIS script that will bug
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>sure, it's the author's "fault". but the problem is not that it's his fault, but that he cannot fix it.
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>you avoid this problem if you always download the _exact_ version, not a supposedly "compatible" version
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>99% of users never need the "compatible" version anyway
11:48<Zuu>He can edit the faulty version and disable it by setting max compatible OpenTTD version to something really row.
11:48<Zuu>Which is a valid usage of the edit button (which can cause trouble in other cases)
11:48<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, if we consider your example, user will always download exact version 1 with bugs
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: no, that won't help for automatic dependency download
11:49<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: I assumed that the user was not yet using the faulty version in his save, but the version before that.
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: and i mean the user opens a savegame where he doesn't have the script at all
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise the problem of getting stuff from bananas doesn't arise in the first place
11:51<Zuu>assuming that save is not using the faulty version, but a version earlier than that, a initial improvement over today would be able to grab etiher exactly that version or the last version (which may or may not be compatible)
11:51<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, in your suggest, user opening a game made with a buggy script version and bananas will download that buggy version instead of the latest without the bug that can load that version too
11:52<Zuu>(today OpenTTD can't make any dependency download for missing scripts)
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11:54<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: but in this case the game was always played with this buggy version, so it doesn't get worse than before
11:55<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, yes it is, because if the user report the bug and i fixes it : nothing change for him
11:55<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, as of today, user report the bug, i fix it, and tell user update from bananas and reload : and tada fixed
11:55<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: I asumed that OpenTTD would care about min/max compatible OpenTTD version when searching for missing content. At least when it looks for newer compatible content. But maybe that is where we are not thinkning the same way?
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: if looking for exact version to load for savegames, it ignores the version requirement
11:57<Zuu>The easy way to handle scripts, is to do it that way using md5sum.
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i say
11:58<Zuu>Then if user go to online-content dialog it can also download the last version of the script. If it is lucky the last version can load it. If it is unlucky it cannot.
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>but krinn wants the more flexible "search for compatible instead of exact version" way
11:58<Zuu>It may then miss some intermediate versions that are newer but not the newest (if the newest cannot load the game), but these cases may be too rare to care about.
12:00<Zuu>Also, in my experience, there have been very few cases where I have had the need to disconnect version compatibility. Eg. for most of my scripts, the last version can load all past versions.
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12:01<krinn>i'm not sure i get it: i was thinking you want use md5 to tag name with script version and bananas download that md5, now i see you speak bananas just download latest version
12:02<Zuu>krinn: We are only discussing the case when OpenTTD cannot find a compatible version locally.
12:02<Zuu>Eg. when I get a save game from you and you forgot to also give me the GS that you used.
12:03<krinn>Zuu : It's acceptable for me to download latest existing verison of a script, even it might not be compatible with it
12:03<krinn>i prefer that than download the exact same version
12:03<Zuu>I think you are mixing up with the upgrade path used when you fetch the newest version using online content and then OpenTTD find a newer compatible version avaliable locally upon load.
12:04<Zuu>"even it might not be compatible with it" OpenTTD will refuse to load using this script in the load dialog.
12:04<krinn>what i'm really against is : save with scriptv1 md5 AAAA and openttd only wish to run the savegame with md5 AAAA : the top for me would be download latest "MinVersionToLoad=version in save" but i can live with latest script version
12:06<RainbowNines>hi guys, dave here. i'm doing some graphics stuff. i've used GRF Codec to decompile the base opengfx file. but there's lots of pink... i'm guessing i've done something wrong. any tips?
12:06<Zuu>No. It is saved with "AAAA", script version: 1, md5: XYZ... . It will first try to locally on your disk find the latest "AAAA" that can load version 1. Just like today. Only if this fails, it will use the md5sum to grab that exact version from bananas.
12:07<krinn>RainbowNines, why not just use the source ?
12:07<RainbowNines>*shrug* i'm "new" to this side of the game. how do you mean?
12:07<Zuu>The reason why we need the md5sum is that while "AAAA" exist on bananas, bananas doesn't contain the script version.
12:08<Zuu>Because several script authors have figured out that they could put eg "2.5" in bananas and integer "5" in the script.
12:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r26029 /trunk/src (gfx_layout.cpp gfx_layout.h) (2013-11-17 17:08:20 UTC)
12:08<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26017): The internal index of a character in the layout line depends on the used layouter.
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12:11<RainbowNines>krinn: I'm a bit confused - where? I've looked all across that link...?
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>RainbowNines: grfcodec has a "palette" option, try either "-p1" or "-p2"
12:12<RainbowNines>thanks, both.
12:12<FrenkyPohodar>I wish you a nice day. She appeared to me that is missing and I do not know what to do with it: UKRS2 must be load before this grf : ( Any advice, ideas?
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>you need that same option on encoding
12:13<krinn>FrenkyPohodar, in NewGRF settings, load UKRS2 then load the newGRF that complain
12:18<RainbowNines>thanks krinn and Eddi|zuHause - working now!
12:18<krinn>you're welcome, have fun
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12:28<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26030 /trunk/src/lang (54 files in 2 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:27:49 UTC)
12:28<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:28<@DorpsGek>italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
12:28<@DorpsGek>japanese - 3 changes by nex259
12:28<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 1 changes by Stabilitronas
12:28<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 14 changes by Trond, cuthbert
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12:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26031 /branches/1.3/src/lang (61 files in 2 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:30:42 UTC)
12:30<@DorpsGek>[1.3] -Backport from trunk: language updates
12:31<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26032 /branches/1.3 (6 files in 4 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:31:51 UTC)
12:32<@DorpsGek>[1.3] -Backport from trunk:
12:32<@DorpsGek>- Fix: The internal index of a character in the layout line depends on the used layouter (r26029)
12:32<@DorpsGek>- Fix: Make the installer warning about Windows XP SP3 not trigger on the 64 bit Windows XP which is not really Windows XP to start with [FS#5773] (r26028)
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12:36<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26033 /branches/1.3 (6 files in 4 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:36:00 UTC)
12:36<@DorpsGek>[1.3] -Update: some documentation
12:40<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26034 /tags/1.3.3-RC1 (3 files in 3 dirs) (2013-11-17 17:40:08 UTC)
12:40<@DorpsGek>-Release: 1.3.3-RC1
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12:53<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: we need a news item, can you write one?
12:53<frosch123>*please :)
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
12:53<frosch123>can you trick lordaro in writing one?
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12:55<Eddi|zuHause>sorry, my level 3 telepathic skill is only passive, not active.
12:56<rubenwardy>is it possible to change a setting: ie engine_renew_money, without restarting the game?
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>some yes, some now
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>engine_renew_money should be a company setting, so each player can change it in the advanced settings window
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13:04<rubenwardy>Why is "drive on left" filtered out?
13:08<rubenwardy>I want to change "engine_renew_money"
13:08<rubenwardy>I changed it in docs/openttd/openttd.cfg
13:08<rubenwardy>but no effect
13:09<frosch123>change it in game, not via config file
13:09<rubenwardy>It is not in "advanced settings"
13:10<frosch123>it is
13:10<frosch123>check the filters at the top
13:10<rubenwardy>oh, company settings
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13:13<LordAro>frosch123: my only area of (vague) expertise in new items is in crash logs ;)
13:14<LordAro>i should finish that patch one day
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: not 'new', 'news'. as in article on the main page and forum
13:17<LordAro>i meant news
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13:24<frosch123>only fixes, win9x should work again
13:25<LordAro>i'm actually writing up the wiki page now
13:25<LordAro>it's sort of my job :)
13:25<frosch123>hmm, damn, fair point :)
13:28<LordAro>Rubidium/whoever: re 1.3.3-RC1 changelog, "layouting" isn't really a word, i think "layout would be better in this case
13:33<LordAro>frosch123: here you go ;)
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14:47<gatis>I am using Apple PowerPC G5
14:47<gatis>Trying to install OpenTTD now
14:48<gatis>I downloaded mac os x universal binary
14:48<gatis>But game wont start
14:48-!-glx [] has joined #openttd
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14:50<gatis>So universal binary for my mac G5 isnt working
14:51-!-andythenorth [~Andy@] has joined #openttd
14:51<gatis>I downloaded free graphics sound and music set
14:52<gatis>I have crash.log where canj i see what causes an error?
14:54<andythenorth>so is the UI moving to an XML definition?
14:54<andythenorth>I mean, it has loads and loads of obvious benefits
14:54<andythenorth>cos the first thing most people think about a game is 'how do I change the UI?'
14:55<frosch123>it's definitely the first thing i think when installing a new os
14:55<frosch123>we need ottd os
14:56<gatis>Please check my crash report
14:57<andythenorth>I know that Steve Jobs supervises my OS from beyond the grave
14:57<andythenorth>so I have no need to change it ever
14:57<andythenorth>it's instantly perfection, even if I don't realise it
14:58<frosch123>gatis: maybe try a different version, 1.3.3-rc1, or if that fails as well, some older version
14:58<frosch123>like 1.0 or 0.7
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14:59<frosch123>there are hardly 3 big endian users in total, so you have to explore some more on your own
14:59<andythenorth>Alberth: did you play any more ottd? Got any Squid feedback? :)
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15:00<@Alberth>just the white pixel folowing one of the boats
15:00<gatis>I give up
15:00*andythenorth fixes some exciting flashing pixels in Squid
15:01<@Alberth>and the tug boat being too cheap making another boat mostly useless
15:01<gatis>I hate Apple G5
15:01<andythenorth>Alberth thanks :)
15:01<gatis>A prison PC
15:01<@Alberth>did not play much
15:01<andythenorth>gatis: it's defunct
15:01<krinn>gatis look at
15:01<andythenorth>what are you doing with a G5?
15:01<@Alberth>I can give you the savegame if you like
15:02<gatis>I cant even start the game...
15:02<@Alberth>boats are surprisingly useful as main transport
15:02<gatis>I love ottd
15:03<krinn>gatis try 1.3.3RC it include lot of fix for OSX
15:03<gatis>but Apple G5 is just useless big metal box
15:03<andythenorth>gatis: it's 10 years old, sell it :P
15:03<krinn>andythenorth, to whom? a martian could buy that
15:03<andythenorth>intel macs are useful, ppc macs are doorstops
15:04<andythenorth>in the UK, depending what spec doorstop it is, G5 towers fetch up to a couple hundred pounds
15:04<andythenorth>G5 imacs less so
15:04<gatis>I simply cant install any game
15:04<krinn>intel mac are good now that they are copy of a pc, but why buy a copy that is isn't even cheaper ?
15:04<andythenorth>krinn: no mileage in that argument, it's old, and nobody won it
15:04<gatis>I dont like apple
15:05<gatis>very prison like
15:05<andythenorth>gatis: you have no other box nearby?
15:05<@Alberth>gatis: I know, that's why I don't have one
15:05<gatis>Windows always been best
15:05<@Alberth>yeah, X11 rocks!
15:06<gatis>What is X11?
15:06<@Alberth>Unix windows system
15:06<gatis>I just dont like Apple - its so expensive
15:06<LordAro>so why do you have one?
15:06<gatis>Im visiting my parents
15:07<gatis>THey have Ipads, Iphones
15:07<krinn>Alberth, it's not like the X in osX mean X11 :)
15:07<gatis>Its a fashion thing clearly
15:07<frosch123>and leave the g5 to you? :p
15:07<gatis>yeah :)
15:08<gatis>We all know Apple is for fashion
15:08<@Alberth>krinn: no idea, but X11 was 20 years earlier :p
15:08<andythenorth>yeah /me is really very fashionable
15:08<gatis>Windows is for entertainment and work
15:08*andythenorth is a fashion icon
15:08<@Alberth>work :o
15:08<krinn>but it was with os 10 that jobs goes with X11
15:08<andythenorth>yeah, me and my X11 mac get loads done
15:08<frosch123>gatis: i am quite entertained by mac users suffering. does that count?
15:09<@Alberth>krinn: quite likely, your avererage Apple user wouldn't even know what X11 is :p
15:09<krinn>i'm not sure it's limit to "average" :)
15:10<gatis>I simply cant tell you why people like Apple
15:10<gatis>Because its a mass instinct
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15:10<andythenorth>yup, /me is a big old sheep
15:10<LordAro>windows is entertainment - it's fun to laugh at it
15:10<gatis>There is nothing better than in other tablets, phones, pc
15:11<krinn>because all is tied, but tied to apple, and if you keep buying apple product, they are working fine with themselves, but once you start using something else, you'll see you're in prison
15:11<gatis>Itš a fashion boom
15:12<andythenorth>how long have you two used macs for?
15:12<gatis>People buy them because its cool
15:12<andythenorth>days, weeks, years?
15:12<gatis>I like android and windows and ubuntu
15:13<gatis>Nothing special in mac
15:13<frosch123>i though android doesn't run ttm
15:13<gatis>I dont see why should i have macintosh
15:13<gatis>Its expensive
15:13<frosch123>you are missing a "r" in your nickname btw
15:14<krinn>lol frosch123
15:14<andythenorth>crack cocaine is expensive too
15:14<andythenorth>I believe
15:14<andythenorth>although you can probably make crack
15:14<andythenorth>does anyone know how to make crack?
15:14<gatis>Not blaming you for having Apple
15:15<gatis>But i think its little deceptive
15:15<gatis>ok big deception
15:15<krinn>andythenorth, got a contract to ref crack maker with the nsa ?
15:16<gatis>Anyway as always happens
15:16<gatis>Someday Apple will hit its lows anyway
15:17<gatis>Like it was before
15:18<frosch123>nah, they will switch to building gaming consoles
15:18<gatis>They can but you never know with what will come other companies
15:18<gatis>Maybe they invent something amazing
15:18<gatis>And get whole focus on that
15:18<gatis>Like Iphone did
15:19<gatis>But iphone is nothing new anymore
15:19<gatis>People always want something new
15:19<gatis>Apple has become predictable
15:20<gatis>thin designs, white grey black, etc.
15:20<gatis>They don't come with anything fresh
15:20<andythenorth>if they want to maintain a fashion brand, that's going to kill them
15:20<frosch123>you mean they are switching to producing kitchen tools? knives and such?
15:20<gatis>iphone 5s looks same as iphone 1
15:20<frosch123>thin and metal white/grey?
15:20<andythenorth>apple should make plates
15:20<andythenorth>and coasters
15:21<andythenorth>maybe an electric carving knife
15:21<krinn>don't worry iWatch is on its way
15:21<gatis>no too predictable
15:21<krinn>but without steve jobs genius, i'm afraid next product from apple will be iSucks
15:21<gatis>bla bla
15:22<gatis>You see you even predict
15:22<gatis>But fashion boom will be a product you dont even dream of
15:22<frosch123>iSpoon is definitely cool
15:22<andythenorth>you guys are sure interested in this considering you are not fanbois
15:22<frosch123>how to easier check your messages during breakfast?
15:23<frosch123>i never liked watches, i always break them :p
15:23<frosch123>but i never destroyed a spoon
15:23<andythenorth>frosch123: the original brief for the ipad was a device for steve jobs to read email on the toilet
15:23<andythenorth>with that thinking, what's next?
15:23<gatis>There are many stuff from samsung LG and sony going on
15:23<gatis>flexible screens
15:24<frosch123>andythenorth: uhm, iCoffing? :s
15:24<gatis>transparent phones
15:25<gatis>For example in Mac Os X i dont see anything unique
15:25<frosch123>how do you make photos/videos with a transparent phone?
15:25<andythenorth>I dunno, OS X has blue buttons
15:25<andythenorth>do the others have blue buttons?
15:25<andythenorth>pretty unique?
15:25<gatis>its not unique
15:25<frosch123>blue buttons are unique to the custom currency window
15:25<@Alberth>frosch123: just look through the phone
15:26<gatis>Yeah but its future phone
15:26<krinn>frosch123, drop the phone in paint?
15:26<frosch123>oh, i get it! "phone"
15:26<gatis>future isnt so beatuiful at the moment
15:26<frosch123>a phone is meant for audio stuff, no need to see it
15:27<@Alberth>tactile feedback :p
15:28<gatis>I can say i wont buy iphone because its current fashion thing
15:28<gatis>Because majority have it
15:28<frosch123>clothes are a fashion thing for years
15:28<gatis>Its boring
15:28<frosch123>don't buy clothes!
15:28<frosch123>clothes have been worn for thousands of years
15:28<frosch123>how boring
15:28<gatis>I need clothes more
15:28<frosch123>time for something news
15:29<frosch123>maybe transparent cloths?
15:29<@Alberth>clothes made of transparent phones
15:29<gatis>Its wise to compare clothes with phone?
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15:29<frosch123>how about clothes with built-in phone and tv?
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15:30<gatis>thats reality
15:30<frosch123>clothes made of old phones is definitely fashonable
15:31<gatis>At least when i use android i dont feel that agenda - iphone is a fashionista
15:31<krinn>frosch123, i hope lady gaga won't read that...
15:32<gatis>Sorry i hate Apple
15:32<gatis>Its made to be cool
15:33<gatis>I see no other explanation
15:33<krinn>and you don't like to be cool ?
15:33<frosch123>but isn't the first rule of being cool to not try to be cool?
15:33<gatis>Not in worldly way
15:33<krinn>it's that so awesome to be a crap junk ?
15:34<frosch123>i thought only untrve people are trve
15:34<gatis>I think Apple subliminals are - buy us because your ego wants it
15:34<gatis>Because cheaper products are not for your ego
15:34<gatis>you must be cool!
15:34<@Alberth>isn't advertisement great?
15:34<gatis>Despite some are cheaper and much better
15:34<krinn>why you think it's subliminal ? people can just buy it because they knows their ego want it
15:35<gatis>subliminal because they dont say it in my words
15:35<krinn>well, last time i asked a mac price, the vendor didn't stare at me in my eyes while saying : it's not the price you are looking for
15:36<gatis>Thats they price want to pay
15:36<gatis>just for piece of metal and plastic
15:37<frosch123>metal prices are rising
15:37<gatis>apple is overpriced
15:37<frosch123>maybe you can even eat some plastics
15:37<krinn>gatis the good price is when people buy it
15:37<frosch123>that would be an advantage compared to plain money
15:37<gatis>Yes they buy it
15:37<krinn>so the price is good
15:37<gatis>I know why
15:38<gatis>Its about them
15:38<frosch123>about who?
15:38<gatis>No one else
15:38<gatis>a human being
15:39<gatis>his desires
15:39<frosch123>ah, so not me
15:39<gatis>satisfying unsatisfied
15:39<gatis>Apple is all about that
15:39<gatis>You feed your ego
15:39<frosch123>are you satisfied?
15:39<gatis>But you cant feed it
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15:39<gatis>I am when i can say no to Apple
15:39<krinn>so they loose customers if the satisfy them ?
15:39<gatis>I am satisfied
15:40<frosch123>so, apple is for the greater good?
15:40<gatis>If people are satisfied Apple are doomed
15:40<frosch123>some people are happy about apple, others are happy about complaining about them
15:40<frosch123>sounds like win-win
15:40<gatis>Satisfying yourself is not a great good
15:40<gatis>But you cant satisfy yourself
15:40<gatis>Thats the trick :)
15:40<frosch123>but you are on the internet!
15:41<frosch123>isn't that about self-satisfaction?
15:41<krinn>frosch123, you didn't get it: yes if you do it with a mac
15:41<gatis>Ask a question why do you buy an Apple
15:42<gatis>And why not other
15:42<gatis>By the way cheaper and better product
15:42<gatis>better in terms of powerful
15:42<frosch123>i have access to self-grown apples from a garden
15:42<frosch123>but i prefer pears
15:43*andythenorth is a bit confused tbh
15:43<frosch123>and i never buy the cheapst product
15:43<andythenorth>why is this still happening on my internets?
15:43<gatis>I am satisfied
15:43<frosch123>with what?
15:44<gatis>If i am not i need the coolest material things
15:44<frosch123>andythenorth: we are alread at 45 minutes, i though we could only manage 15
15:44<gatis>But i am fine
15:44<andythenorth>frosch123: it is pretty epic
15:44<frosch123>so, you have a mercedes?
15:44<andythenorth>it's like some kind of breakdown in public
15:44<frosch123>why are you satisfied then?
15:44<gatis>Because i am
15:44<krinn>so finally, your parents aren't cool, if i get it ?
15:45<gatis>I have much valuable things
15:45<gatis>which is impossible to buy
15:45<frosch123>what? an iphone?
15:45<frosch123>ah, love!
15:45<krinn>frosch123, a google driven phone :)
15:45<frosch123>you love your parents, despite of them using apple products!
15:45<gatis>For me a tool is a tool
15:45<frosch123>what a lovely turn-around :)
15:45<gatis>I dont adore a tool
15:46<krinn>so you love people, even they aren't cool ?
15:46<gatis>I dont love tools for sure
15:47<gatis>Some people arent cool
15:47<gatis>But they are more worthy than iphones
15:48<gatis>But some people are very lonely they are more happy about new iphone than their friend
15:48<andythenorth>this is an important philosophical discussion
15:48<gatis>Spends more than with tool than a living human being
15:48<@Alberth>just like some people chat on the internet?
15:49<krinn>ok, it's not i'm giving up, but my cat wants to play, and until i can get an iMouse i'm the tool
15:50<andythenorth>I have Squid to look after
15:50<andythenorth>they won't feed themselves
15:50<@Alberth>but they just had fish
15:50<gatis>Yeah i know what you mean
15:50<gatis>Of course people live in society
15:50<gatis>But the way they live..
15:50<andythenorth>Alberth: I have to feed them some more FISH
15:51<andythenorth>those pesky mac users, bringing about the downfall of society
15:51<@Alberth>always a good idea, but not too many, you want to keep them small
15:51<andythenorth>Alberth: that's true, small Squid are tastier
15:51<frosch123>i am sure the nsa uses macs
15:51<gatis>People work and do this and that... discluding spiritual life
15:52<@Alberth>churches are excluded from mac use?
15:52<gatis>why churches
15:52<andythenorth>dalai lama is banned from mac use by Apple
15:52<andythenorth>it is well known
15:52<@Alberth>they do spiritual life as work, don't they?
15:53<gatis>Apple wont bring you peace
15:53<gatis>or feeding cat
15:53<frosch123>you can hardly shoot something while playing angry birds
15:53<gatis>or having 2000 friends in facebook
15:53<andythenorth>it is true that Apple is to blame for Facebook
15:53<gatis>or having tons of money
15:53<frosch123>you don't have 2000 friend no facebook?
15:54<gatis>i dont use it
15:54<andythenorth>if you look carefully at FB logo, you can see it is actually an Apple
15:54<frosch123>i have 125 in this chatroom alone
15:54<andythenorth>and Zuckerberg is actually another illegitimate child of Stephen P. Jobs
15:54<gatis>Yeah but friend is not a just a person
15:55<frosch123>exactly, dorpsgek is a perfect example
15:55<frosch123>of a friend who is not just a person
15:55<gatis>Older the earth colder the people
15:55<gatis>Empty souled
15:56<frosch123>yeah, don't dig too deep
15:56<gatis>Technology just takes place
15:56<andythenorth>I miss the old days
15:56<andythenorth>I liked it when we had no electricity
15:56<frosch123>i heard about people digging too deep in minecraft
15:56<frosch123>and loosing their soul to something in the deep
15:56<andythenorth>technology is terrible
15:56<gatis>Why we need to build friendships in internet?
15:56<andythenorth>we need to go back to the old ways, like books
15:57<@Alberth>no cars
15:57<gatis>Mostly people use Iphone to be in facebook, instagram.. To use social sites
15:57<andythenorth>how strange of them
15:57<gatis>The problem is not using the tool
15:57<andythenorth>to me it's just a sub-standard phone that has baby photos on it
15:57<gatis>Problem forgeting who you are
15:57<gatis>Calling white is black
15:58<andythenorth>life was much better before we had social networking
15:58<andythenorth>people lived in small towns
15:58<andythenorth>and they had to be like everyone else
15:58<andythenorth>and spend time with their relations, who they often had nothing in common with
15:58<andythenorth>we should go back to that
15:58<gatis>In 2020 Intel will put brain chip connected to internet.. You will surf in your head and read emails.
15:58<andythenorth>and anyone with unusual interests was either shamed, or physically beaten
15:59<frosch123>emails? seriously?
15:59<frosch123>you believe in that?
15:59<andythenorth>I haven't read emails since Christmas 2012
15:59<gatis>are you surprised?
15:59<andythenorth>frosch123: some people will probably read emails :(
15:59<andythenorth>it seems to be a thing people do
15:59<gatis>When you were 10 years old did you know we will be at this stage?
15:59<gatis>Dont be surprised
15:59<gatis>Its reality
15:59<gatis>We have robots
16:00<andythenorth>we have killer flying quadcopters
16:00<andythenorth>and privately owned delta wings with guns
16:00<gatis>yes we do
16:00<andythenorth>we're all doomed
16:00<gatis>We have system to kill us efficiently
16:00<gatis>We have made a spy system
16:00<gatis>We are smart people
16:01<gatis>We have made virtual friendship reality
16:01<gatis>We are GREAT!
16:01<frosch123>or tall
16:01<krinn>gatis if i can correct you i think the good one is "We are Borg, resistance is futile"
16:01<andythenorth>or vast
16:01<gatis>And we have made great weapons to kill ourselves.
16:01<andythenorth>we are epic!
16:02<andythenorth>so (off-topic) can we have OTTD - the drugs and guns edition?
16:02<gatis>This is what happens when human being adores tools
16:02<gatis>Tools enslave humans
16:02<andythenorth>this is true
16:02<Zuu>Oh, AIs got 1024 chars for saving settings. For each setting this is saved: "[name]=[value]," where value is an integer converted to string using %d. So if you say a random setting use 10 chars for "name=value,", then you can have 102 settings.
16:02<andythenorth>I have watched 2001
16:02<andythenorth>the beginning tells you all you need to know
16:03<andythenorth>Kubrick was very forward-thinking
16:03<gatis>I am getting sick
16:03<andythenorth>bones as weapons
16:03<gatis>I am getting sick of this world
16:03<frosch123>ah, that beginning
16:03<Zuu>For GS it is also 1024 characters. So those GSes with insane amount of settings may eventually run into this limit.
16:04<gatis>Do i have i choice to not love a humans?
16:04<andythenorth>Alberth: found your white pixel thanks :)
16:04<frosch123>Zuu: do you mean openttd.cfg?
16:04<frosch123>or are they really saved like that in the savegame?
16:04<gatis>Who will i love on this earth except humans?
16:04<@Alberth>yw :)
16:05<krinn>savegame include the 1024 chars ?
16:05<Zuu>frosch123: I refer to the save game.
16:05<krinn>gatis try goats, they don't use iphone
16:05<gatis>Today people shallow
16:06<Zuu>It uses ScriptConfig::SettingsToString
16:06<andythenorth>I just read a book about a goat with a boat
16:06<andythenorth>he had no sail
16:06<andythenorth>so the giant gave him his shirt
16:06<gatis>Where are values as faith, love, hope, forgivness, mercy?
16:06<gatis>Deepness of heart?
16:06<krinn>it also mean a one setting can flood (a crazy namethatishugeas1024chars)
16:06<frosch123>Zuu: feels weird, why would settings be saved like that :s
16:06<andythenorth>gatis: they're not in this bit of irc, this is a channel for people with somewhat aspergic tendencies
16:07<gatis>I mean about this world
16:07<Zuu>frosch123: The only good about that is if someone re-order the settings it has the ability to recover from that.
16:08<krinn>that's a real good thing
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16:14<LordAro>dat netsplit
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16:14<gatis>I wish this days come faster
16:15<frosch123>did i miss anything?
16:15<gatis>I look at those people who saluted to Hitler and sayd Heil Hitler
16:15<krinn>oh lol, even split can't stop him
16:15<gatis>What they were thinking?
16:15<gatis>What are thinking youth when they say yes to devil?
16:15-!-heffer [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:15<gatis>They are like animals heading to slaughter
16:15<@Rubidium>so... now this discussion is officially over
16:15<gatis>They praised the Hitler
16:16<gatis>And got killed by Hitler
16:16<gatis>Its the Devil
16:16<andythenorth>it's a godwin test bot!
16:16<gatis>Devil could be anything
16:16-!-mode/#openttd [+v planetmaker] by ChanServ
16:16<krinn>andythenorth, i hope it just reach the end so
16:16<gatis>You name it
16:16<andythenorth>it uses a learning algorithm
16:16-!-mode/#openttd [+v Terkhen] by ChanServ
16:16<gatis>Just name it
16:16<gatis>Shadow goverments
16:16<gatis>Mega bankers
16:16<gatis>controling your world
16:16<gatis>what you eat
16:17<gatis>what you read
16:17<gatis>how you live
16:17<frosch123>ah, i give up
16:17<@Rubidium>what was it, +q?
16:17<frosch123>@ban gatis
16:17<krinn>gatis i think everyone get the point now, you can stop and breath
16:17<@DorpsGek>frosch123: frosch
16:17<gatis>The truth is so terrible you just cant bear it :(
16:17-!-mode/#openttd [+q gatis!*@*] by Rubidium
16:17<frosch123>why is it not working?
16:18<@Rubidium>don't know
16:18<@Rubidium>or is it?
16:18<andythenorth>frosch123: maybe something took over the controls?
16:18<krinn>lazy iBot ?
16:18<andythenorth>maybe this is the singularity?
16:18-!-mode/#openttd [+v Alberth] by ChanServ
16:18<andythenorth>maybe, somewhere on the east and west coast, two AIs just linked?
16:18<andythenorth>and acquired consciousness
16:18<andythenorth>and now they're upset about hitler
16:18<LordAro>@kick andythenorth :p
16:18<frosch123>hmm, i thought ban was a command
16:18<frosch123>but there is only kban
16:19<@planetmaker>good evening
16:19<LordAro>moin planetmaker
16:19<@planetmaker>frosch123, ban is a command. But ban != kick
16:19<krinn>hi planetmaker
16:19<@planetmaker>thus kban is available, too :-)
16:19<@Alberth>isn't ban just preventing re-entry?
16:19<frosch123>Alberth: ban is like silence
16:19<frosch123>no reenty, no talking
16:19<frosch123>but listening till leaving
16:20<frosch123>planetmaker: dorpsgek does not know ban
16:20<frosch123>@help ban
16:20<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Error: There is no command "ban".
16:20<LordAro>either way, Rubidium quieted him :)
16:20<@planetmaker>hm :-)
16:20<LordAro>i like to imagine that he's still talking :)
16:20<@Rubidium>yeah, banning is not freedom of speech
16:21<@Rubidium>s/is/so is/
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17:05<Eddi|zuHause>oooh... so i missed the action :/
17:10<andythenorth>also bye
17:10*andythenorth -> bed
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17:18<Wolf01>'night all
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22:18<LuHa>hmm, i again lost voice right in .dev :(
22:18<LuHa>planetmaker: I success to your help. thanks
22:18<Supercheese>try to identify with Nickserv
22:19<Supercheese>I had to set up a command to auto-identify upon login to get the voice automatically assigned
22:19<LuHa>(12:16:24) NickServ: (notice) You are successfully identified as LuHa.
22:19<Supercheese>right, if you did that after login, you may need to relog
22:19<Supercheese>I'm not entirely sure how the IRC business works
22:20<LuHa>yeap, thanks
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 18 00:00:37 2013