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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-11-27

---Logopened Wed Nov 27 00:00:52 2013
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04:18<dihedral>hello gents
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08:06<djgummikuh>some days back I asked around here for gamescript functions to alter company balance. The API in 1.3.2 only has limited support for that, someone here (I hate my bad memory) told me that the next version of OpenTTD would have extended support - my question is, does 1.3.3-RC2 already have this extended Script support?
08:06<Xaroth|Work>it should if it was planned for 1.3.3
08:06<Xaroth|Work>else it's not due for 1.3.3
08:07<djgummikuh>I assume it is. SOmeone here showed me a javadoc page or something with these functions, do you know where that is?
08:07<Xaroth|Work>me? no, I only work with the admin port
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08:08<Xaroth|Work>haven't looked at nogo since it was designed
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08:12<kostiak>hey, anyone around?
08:12<Xaroth|Work>define 'around'
08:13<kostiak>I'm trying to run the USA scenario and I can't figure out how
08:13<kostiak>I mean i downloaded it and it starts, but I can't build any stations of any kind
08:14<kostiak>any idea?
08:15<Xaroth|Work>none what-so-ever
08:15<Xaroth|Work>but I'm probably not the best person to ask
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08:18<kostiak>anybody else here?
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08:24<@planetmaker>djgummikuh, the changelog is available for those versions :-)
08:24<@planetmaker>Generally new features are only due in major version,s though
08:25<@planetmaker>kostiak, I don't know that scenario. But there's a couple of broken scenarios which start too early, so that no vehicles are around
08:26<@planetmaker>try to date-cheat yourself forward to 1950 and see whether you then have vehicles available
08:26<kostiak>when should the earlist vehicles be around?
08:26<@planetmaker>depends on choice of newgrf. default vehicles start around 1930s
08:27<kostiak>ok yeah, edited it so it starts in 1930 and have bus stops now
08:28<kostiak>never understood newgrfs really :(
08:29<@planetmaker>well. this is not about newgrfs now. The scenario designer clearly set a wrong date for the scenario
08:30<kostiak>i think he used some other newgrfs
08:30<kostiak>but his post is in german, and with the google translation coupled with my total lack of newgrf knowledge, no idea what to do to make it work properly
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08:42<@planetmaker>ah. well. I guess that's one of those scenarios where the authors thought it's a good idea if you modify NewGRF settings before you actually start
08:45<@planetmaker>sadly modifying NewGRFs on an existing map makes it easy to wreak havoc with the map
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08:49<djgummikuh>planetmaker: so where do you have the API Doc for the game scripts
08:49<djgummikuh>btw what is NoGo?
08:49<djgummikuh>is that the name of the Scripting language?
08:49<djgummikuh>Xaroth|Work: what exactly do you do via the admin port?
08:50<djgummikuh>I would like to take or give money from / to a company via the admin port
08:53<@planetmaker>NoGo is another name for game scripts
08:53<@planetmaker> is your friend for the docs
08:54<Xaroth|Work>djgummikuh: the admin port does not do that, however, it can communicate with nogo scripts who can then facilitate actions (like giving/taking money)
08:54<Xaroth|Work>and I made one of the libraries around that implement the admin port protocol
08:55<@planetmaker>Join #openttdcoop to see how it's used to manage the servers ;-)
08:55<@planetmaker>but then, not much to see really
08:56<Xaroth|Work>i should actually hop by there every now and then
08:56<@planetmaker>totally :-)
08:56<@planetmaker>honestly, I'm not sure whether our PublicServer already uses Soap or not yet
08:57<@planetmaker>but the Welcome server and ProZone do
08:57<@planetmaker>indeed, very nice
08:57<@planetmaker>Taede does an excellent job there
08:57<Xaroth|Work>single bot instance, or multiple bots?
08:57<@planetmaker>one bot, multiple servers
09:08<djgummikuh>ok regarding
09:08<djgummikuh>"trunk" -> does that resemble upcoming 1.3.3 or 1.4?
09:09<@planetmaker>current development branch. thus -> 1.4
09:09<djgummikuh>ok I'm asking because there is no 1.3.3 on the page.. only 1.3.2
09:10<@planetmaker>well. There *is* no 1.3.3. So why should it be there?
09:10<djgummikuh>because it's coming up and ppl might want to adapt their scripts pre-release?
09:10<djgummikuh>anyways :-( I need this setBalance functions from 1.4
09:11<djgummikuh>but I don't want to wait another year or whatever it takes for openttd to reach 1.4 :-/
09:11<@planetmaker>wait for 1.4.0-beta1... :-)
09:11<@planetmaker>and looking at the past release cycles that's not too far off ;-)
09:12<djgummikuh>Is there any tutorial for NoGo <-> Admin Port interaction or for NoGo programming in general?
09:12<Xaroth|Work>nogo <-> admin port interaction is just 2 small things, sending and receiving
09:12<@planetmaker>Not that I know of. They can communicate via JSON
09:12<Xaroth|Work>both sides need to be aware
09:12<@planetmaker>and ^
09:13<djgummikuh>ok but I generously would describe my experience with NoGo as Level "0"
09:13<djgummikuh>or actually, for 0-based countings, -1
09:15<@planetmaker>djgummikuh, if you have experience with AI writing: most things work identical
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09:16<djgummikuh>well my experience with writing ANYTHING (but a company name) for OpenTTD is about the same level
09:16<djgummikuh>I am developer though so I'd expect to catch on quite quick but I best learn with tutorials or examples to take from
09:17<@planetmaker>there's a decent number of examples around. After all, every instance of a script is an example, it#s a script language
09:18<@planetmaker>and I've seen so far only gpl-licensed scripts, so you'll not have trouble to actually learn from them and even build on them
09:18<@planetmaker> <-- has a couple of AI and GS scripts and libraries
09:19<@planetmaker> might be the better repository browser, though
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09:42<djgummikuh>planetmaker: woah can you please point me to an actual script there? I found some AIs but some of these Projects are C++?
09:43<djgummikuh>hmm... any chance that I can convince somene to write a game script for me? ;D
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09:45<@planetmaker>djgummikuh, I don't say that every project there is a GS or AI. Those GS projects tend to start with "gs" and the ai projects with "ai"
09:45<@planetmaker>and no, both must be written in squirrel; other languages simply don't work for GS or AI
09:46<djgummikuh>mmh ok. I expected all .nut files to be squrirel but there are Mode: C++ logs in it and the syntax clearly looks like C++ as well (Class::function etc)
09:46<djgummikuh>Mode: C++ comments, not logs, sorry
09:47<Xaroth|Work>the C comment style is used in more than just C :)
09:49<djgummikuh>that's what I mean: /* -*- Mode: C++; tab-width: 6 -*- */
09:49<@peter1138>That's a editor instruction, not code.
09:49<djgummikuh>ah ok. nevermind then :)
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11:38<knadyy>dam this pussy looks like exotic fruit
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11:42<Vinnie_nl>Hello guys, is it me or does the login at flyspray take a long time to proces?
11:42<Vinnie_nl>trying to get a bug report added
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11:52<LordAro>Vinnie_nl: not usually, iirc
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12:08<zydeco>greetings, comrades
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12:36<Eddi|zuHause>oooh, widelands actually got ships now
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12:43<zydeco>I patched the PNG heightmap export/import so it preserves rivers
12:43<zydeco>but it only imports rivers if it has a certain text chunk
12:44<zydeco>maybe it should check the palette instead, and it would be more useful
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12:49<Japa>zydeco, why not just always assume a river if the red and green channels are zero?
12:50<zydeco>right now I'm using the palette index
12:50<zydeco>so the low 4 bits are height, and the 5th is river
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12:52<Japa>That works for palleted images, I guess. I was thinking about RGB images.
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12:55<Eddi|zuHause>Japa: the general idea was to have several image files and a description file that selects which file means which. they can be put into directories/tar-files to keep them together
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>so you have one image that shows the height, one image that shows the rivers, one image that shows the roads, etc.
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>where "description file" means some sort of .ini format, like .obg/.obm etc.
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12:58<Eddi|zuHause>pretty much all code for that is there, just has to be assembled :p
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12:59<Eddi|zuHause>there is a wiki page somewhere
13:00<@Alberth>assuming that's the topic :)
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but Japa_ probably missed my lines :p
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13:29<Wolf01>yeah, finally :D
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13:32<@Alberth>hi hi
13:32<Wolf01>quak frosch123
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14:26<Superuser>This is the final evolution of the tycoon genre:
14:27<TinoDidriksen>Hmm, that depends. Has anyone done a Porn Tycoon? If not, that is clearly missing before we can consider the genre closed.
14:28<Superuser>Rules 34 + 35
14:28<Rubidium>what about Godwin?
14:28<Superuser>Utilitarian tycoon?
14:28<TinoDidriksen>Concentration Camp Tycoon? We have that Prison..something management game.
14:29<Superuser>Prison Architect
14:29<TinoDidriksen>That's the one
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14:35<@Alberth>what about a tycoon game about making tycoon games?
14:36<frosch123>i think there is
14:36<frosch123>game dev tycoon or so
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14:47<@peter1138>That's the one where if you pirate it, you can't win...
14:50<__ln__>what about a tycoon game about making free software?
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14:54<@peter1138>No money in it...
14:55<__ln__>Red Hat would disagree, but yeah, I was more like thinking about a Stallman simulation.
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15:29<V453000>hm for some reason multiple people already told me that trunk under windoze sez virus danger, unsafe, etc bullcrap ... got any clues on that? :D
15:30<V453000>I mean I always knew openttd isnt safe for your brain but for your pc its like a cure? :P
15:31<frosch123>the nsa certificate expired
15:31<frosch123>so it warns that the transmission in insecure
15:31<V453000>: D
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15:34<+glx>V453000: they all use the same antivirus ?
15:34<frosch123>well, if i google for "openttd" and "virus" i certainly end up a some malware sites
15:34<V453000>didnt ask which glx
15:35<frosch123>wow, this site is awesome
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15:36<frosch123>it's a template text which apparently can insert any application name (in this case "openttd.exe")
15:36<frosch123>and warn you about it, and tell you to download something to fix it :p
15:36<frosch123>"openttd.exe is a legitimate windows process used by many applications of Windows operating systems. So it is not a problem in most cases if you see several even copies of this process running in your background because they plays a core role for the connected programs. In most case, openttd.exe process is safe in supporting the programs which require this process/file in order to function correctly. However this process may have more
15:36<frosch123>than one variants and one of them may be spyware or malware. To be sure we suggest that you scan your system for openttd.exe errors."
15:37<frosch123>and so on, more than 5 screen pages
15:37<Xaroth|Work>actually quite good spelling for crapware
15:37<frosch123>with various screenshots and even a video
15:37<frosch123>the application name is blurred out on those though
15:43<+glx>frosch123: I guess their tool has the MS certified logo :)
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15:44<V453000>lol ^
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15:56<alluke>i fokken love dc++
15:59<Xaroth|Work>1990 called, they want their software back.
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16:07<Kjetil>Well.. The 90's can sodd off. This is our transport simulator
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16:19<@planetmaker>nice. there we have again the undo knob:
16:20<Taede>could always class it as a cheat
16:20<Taede>just means you cant use it in mp
16:20<@planetmaker>it actually technically doesn't work
16:20<@planetmaker>the game state is changed
16:20<@planetmaker>things evolved
16:21<Taede>trains dont like it when rails suddenly dissappear from beneath them
16:21<@planetmaker>openttd doesn't remember what was done either
16:21<@planetmaker>for instance
16:22<alluke>how would that work
16:22<@planetmaker>draw 2000 sprites
16:22<alluke>in 2d game
16:22<@planetmaker>and then also for all newgrfs
16:22<@planetmaker>not impossible. But ... a stretch
16:23<alluke>multirail bridges would be nice
16:23<andythenorth>I didn't understand the double tracked bridges request
16:23<alluke>but they should recognize that theres another bridge next to them and then load matching sprites
16:23<andythenorth>so a visual thing?
16:23<@planetmaker>newgrf bridges
16:23<alluke>visual yes
16:25<@planetmaker>Taede, with undo you also have fun when terraforming, e.g. when a single click tears down a whole piece of a mountain or floods some plains as you killed a dike
16:25<andythenorth>undo is for MS word
16:26<andythenorth>not for a game
16:26<@planetmaker>also building affects your standing with local authority, tree growth, ...
16:26<@planetmaker>in single player your have autosaves :-)
16:26<andythenorth>it's fricking insane
16:26<andythenorth>we'd have to diff state for every single state change
16:26<andythenorth>even diffing it, the memory usage would be bonkers
16:27<andythenorth>it's not 'undo'
16:27<andythenorth>it's 'rewind'
16:29<@planetmaker>thus the culprit basically is: "what do you mean with 'undo'?"
16:30<@planetmaker>and then a full rewind is not feasible. And just un-building stuff would cause more harm than gain
16:30<@planetmaker>maybe not harm. But sadness and annoyance
16:31<@planetmaker>though it might harm my sanity :-P
16:32<@planetmaker>"no, it's undo, not rewind. It doesn't reverse the effects of the action, just the action. Like if you stab s/o, pulling out the knife won't fix it"
16:32<andythenorth>rewind would be plausible, if you had enough memory, or dumped to disk
16:32<andythenorth>and there were no unexpected engineering changes
16:32<@planetmaker>but that's basically what autosaves are for
16:33<andythenorth>oic :)
16:33<andythenorth>autosave :D
16:33<@planetmaker>though transferring the whole game to a new memory buffer also takes time. you notice it
16:33<andythenorth>autosave every 1s? :P
16:34<@planetmaker>every 2 minutes is fastest IIRC
16:34<andythenorth>so the game is a very complicated dynamic simulation containing many many state machines *and* randomised stuff
16:34<andythenorth>whereas MS word, only I make changes :P
16:34<andythenorth>so state is only changed by my actions
16:35<@planetmaker>basically that's what we use on our main server ;-) Every minute actually
16:35<andythenorth>I guess this stuff is non-obvious unless you've been around code for a year or two
16:35<@planetmaker>it's totally not obvious, indeed
16:35<@planetmaker>you click, something happens. Same in MS word
16:36<@planetmaker>actually... rewind in steps of one minute is not *that* bad, is it?
16:36<+glx>but in MS word there are only user actions
16:36<@planetmaker>yes, glx *we* know that slight but important difference
16:37<@planetmaker>but it's not obvious
16:37<andythenorth>well you might have an MS word macro-virus :P
16:37<andythenorth>changing your doc
16:37<@planetmaker>haha :-)
16:37<andythenorth>or some kind of collaborative editing crap
16:37<andythenorth>Word In The Cloud
16:37<andythenorth>I hate using undo in Google docs :P
16:37<@planetmaker>I wonder whether one could abuse the autosaves to allow for in-game rollback. Nice interface and probably half of these questions would not occor
16:38<andythenorth>planetmaker: does gimp have a history palette?
16:38<andythenorth>photoshop does
16:38<+glx>in word I remember you couldn't edit a document open by someone else
16:38<andythenorth>it's last 32 or so actions, click the one you want
16:38<@planetmaker>it does have history. What's a history palette? selective undo of past steps?
16:38<andythenorth>I can never figure out how selective it is :P
16:38<andythenorth>but yeah, simple version is just rollback to a recent version, UI is a simple list
16:39<+glx>usually when I undo it's the latest changes
16:40<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes it seems to have that. I never noticed or used it though. It's called 'journal'
16:40<andythenorth>yeah journal is fitting
16:40<andythenorth>like your HD
16:40<andythenorth>aggressive autosave = journal
16:40<andythenorth>go backwards in the journal at your own risk
16:41<+glx>yeah like restauration points
16:41<andythenorth>see, even silly suggestions sometimes produce solutions, eh?
16:42<+glx>for openttd autosaves should be enough ;)
16:42<@planetmaker>it's not exactly silly. Just ignorant. And that's not something to call him stupid for
16:43<andythenorth>yeah, point well made
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19:18<geoffreybeene>Sup TTD homies
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19:26<NGC3982_>geoffreybeene: hi.
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19:32<geoffreybeene>hEY ngc
19:32<geoffreybeene>How you doin
19:33<NGC3982_>And you?
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19:35<geoffreybeene>Was hoping to get some TTD in before I gotta go out
19:35<geoffreybeene>I know i'll probably just get sucked in though
19:38<geoffreybeene>Are there music expansions?
19:38<geoffreybeene>I friggin' love the base soudntrack
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21:38<Killer11>Good evening/night
21:39<Supercheese>Good 6:38 PM PST
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21:41<Killer11>I kind of finished preliminary work on this scenario thing
21:41<Killer11>Gonna post it so peopel can give me crits and such
21:42<Killer11>wow I still typo that word systematically
21:42<Killer11>after all these years...
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21:55<Killer11>if anyone wants to try it, go and grab it
21:58<Killer11>Anyone here with some NML skills?
22:10<Supercheese>whatcha wonderin' about?
22:11<Killer11>I want to learn NML so I can recode my old trainset
22:12<Killer11>i've tasted c++/java/html so I should be ok
22:23<Supercheese>NML is great
22:23<Supercheese>the tutorial is excellent
22:25<Killer11>also since my old sets nfo is really really simple(made in grfmaker...) could i somehow convert it to nml?
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---Logclosed Thu Nov 28 00:00:53 2013