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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-12-02

---Logopened Mon Dec 02 00:00:59 2013
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02:45<@planetmaker>moin
02:45<V453000>hy
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04:06<djgummikuh>Heya!
04:06<djgummikuh>I just updated my server to 1.3.3 and noticed that it identifies itself as 1.3.2
04:06<djgummikuh>did I do somethign wrong? I copied the files from my 1.3.2 server's baseset folder over to 1.3.3 was that not correct?
04:08<blathijs>djgummikuh: The latter shouldn't affect the version
04:08<@planetmaker>copying the baseset or newgrf folders is not wrong
04:08<blathijs>djgummikuh: How did you update the server? Did you restart it?
04:08<@planetmaker>but if it says it's 1.3.2 it likely is and you started the wrong binary
04:08<djgummikuh>i stopped it
04:08<djgummikuh>moved my openttd folder to openttd.132 and then the new one to openttd
04:08<djgummikuh>then I started it again
04:09<djgummikuh>ah and I copied the baseset folder as described
04:09<@planetmaker>maybe windows is more intelligent than you assume?
04:09<djgummikuh>linux
04:09<@planetmaker>better then
04:09<djgummikuh>I DO however use the user's home/.openttd folder for configuration (since the user is for this game only anyways)
04:09<@planetmaker>and how did you start it?
04:09<djgummikuh>openttd -D
04:09<@planetmaker>right, if you use ~/.openttd/baseset for basesets... why do you need to move those?
04:10<djgummikuh>uuhm... hold on
04:10<djgummikuh>nah that folder is empty
04:10<@planetmaker>put your base set there
04:10<djgummikuh>good point
04:10<djgummikuh>did not even see that this folder existed there :)
04:10<@planetmaker>anyway, that's beside the point
04:12<djgummikuh>ok
04:12<@planetmaker>what's the first line of output reported by ~/openttd/openttd -h
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04:12<djgummikuh>I deleted everything and did it again and now it identifies as 1.3.3
04:12<@planetmaker>or whereever your new binary resides
04:12<djgummikuh>sesms I must've screwed something up last time around..
04:12<djgummikuh>that baseset suggestion was a good one though, makes updating easier in the future
04:14<djgummikuh>great, working now.
04:14<@planetmaker>djgummikuh, the ~/.openttd folder and its sub-folders are used automatically, if the openttd.cfg is found in ~/.openttd
04:14<@planetmaker>and not next to the binary
04:14<@planetmaker>especially interesting for download content
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04:44<djgummikuh>planetmaker: yeah. Though I did not think it would be of much value for a pure dedicated server
04:44<djgummikuh>seems I was wrong :9
04:45<djgummikuh>mmh.. I'm still looking for someone who urgently wants to write me a squirrel script to allow me to add or deduct money from a company via the admin port :)
04:45<djgummikuh>feel bored? ;)
04:47<Xaroth|Work>wait, you want to write it, or you want to find somebody to write it
04:47<djgummikuh>the latter ;)
04:49<djgummikuh>I'm to lazy to learn squirrel for that :)
04:51<Xaroth|Work>heh
04:53<@planetmaker>you use the admin port already?
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04:59<djgummikuh>planetmaker: yes
04:59<djgummikuh>if you want, join me on openttd.letsplayonline.eu
04:59<djgummikuh>though so far all i can do is send chat messages to and fro our MC server
05:00<djgummikuh>next step would be user authentication against our word-press database to prevent name-theft of registered
05:00<djgummikuh>*users
05:01<djgummikuh>after-the-next step would be to integrate the webchat of our 2 moons to allow openttd players to also chat with 2 moons players.
05:01<djgummikuh>and as soon as 1.4 comes out I'm planning on some (yet to be developed) money transfer between those games (and all that might come till then ;) )
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05:02<djgummikuh>maybe winning in openttd gains you some kind of community currency that you can spend on premium features (also yet to be developed, we're still at an early stage ;) )
05:03<V453000>all I can say is wtf :-D
05:03<djgummikuh>why? :)
05:04<Xaroth|Work> you're not going to get much of a community if the site is german only tbqfh
05:04<V453000>that too :d
05:04<djgummikuh>tbqfh
05:04<Xaroth|Work>to be quite fooking honest
05:05<djgummikuh>ah i c
05:05<Xaroth|Work>don't get me wrong, the idea is great
05:05<djgummikuh>we're working on that, though we already have (or better: had) international players.
05:05<djgummikuh>There was some kind of mutiny about a month back that crippled us badly... Still recoveringn from taht.
05:06<Xaroth|Work>not surprising, seeing you mainly do minecraft
05:06<djgummikuh>Still we already have a ~300 players userbase for MC alone which currently slowly expands into 2moons.
05:06<djgummikuh>well yeah that's where it started
05:06<djgummikuh>the idea of expanding to other games only came after 90% of the team decided to screw us from behind and delete our servers and start a new project...
05:07<Xaroth|Work>that too, doesn't surprise me with the mc background
05:07<Xaroth|Work>for some reason most people who play mc have -very- low standards when it comes to behavior and human interaction :|
05:07<djgummikuh>well... actually the team is not so much to blame.. one of the former owners is weird in his head to say the least...
05:07<Xaroth|Work>right up the level of CoD kiddies :|
05:07<djgummikuh>Xaroth|Work: hey I play MC too :)
05:08<Xaroth|Work>djgummikuh: i said most, not all
05:08<Xaroth|Work>I play MC too
05:08<djgummikuh>well :) care to join lpo? ^^
05:08<Xaroth|Work>heh, no thanks
05:08<Xaroth|Work>not enough mods for my liking
05:08<djgummikuh>too bad.
05:08<djgummikuh>mods as in modification or mods as in moderators?
05:08<Xaroth|Work>former
05:08<djgummikuh>we're working on both
05:09<djgummikuh>we happen to still have a FTB Ultimate running, that should be enough mods for everyone but we're shutting it down due to excessive hardware use of that server.
05:09<Xaroth|Work>heh, yeh, ftb ultimate tends to use a bit
05:09<Xaroth|Work>it's fun though
05:09<djgummikuh>yeah too bad redpower got kicked in unleashed
05:09<djgummikuh>we also had 2 unleashed server but they were deleted when the morons fled
05:10<Xaroth|Work>rp2 was a downward spiral anyhow
05:10<Xaroth|Work>there are dozens of mods around now that provide similar if not better variants
05:10<djgummikuh>well I liked her computers :)
05:10<djgummikuh>anyways you also can mod vanilla mc
05:10<djgummikuh>just not too much with graphics and such
05:11<djgummikuh>and I don't know if you ever wrote a mod for MC but writing for Forge is a PITA to say the least
05:11<Xaroth|Work>meh, not too bad
05:11<djgummikuh>writing for bukkit is much much more elegant and less clumsy (no obfuscation and stuff like that required)
05:14<@planetmaker>out of interest: djgummikuh, what do you use to connect to admin port?
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05:15<djgummikuh>joan iirc.
05:15<djgummikuh>I extracted the classes and threw them into my project so I can't tell for 100%
05:15<Xaroth|Work>is it java or python
05:15<djgummikuh>basically I customized the SimpleConsole demo application that shipped with joan and adapted it
05:15<Xaroth|Work>if java: joan, else libottdadmin2
05:15<djgummikuh>it's java
05:15<djgummikuh>that's what so neat about it - i can run it directly in the Minecraft server which also is java :)
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05:16<Xaroth|Work>crashing a minecraft server from within openttd, can't wait to see that one happen
05:17*djgummikuh adds Xaroth|Work to his blacklist
05:18<Xaroth|Work>lol
05:18<Xaroth|Work>like crashing a mc server is -that- hard :|
05:19<djgummikuh>mmh well I would guess so given the limited possibilities you have via my plugin :)
05:19<djgummikuh>though spamming might be a problem... but since the plugin is mine I can easily adapt when need is apparent
05:19<Xaroth|Work>it would be much more challenging to crash openttd from within minecraft that way
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06:28<@planetmaker>we totally need more servers: Servers registered as on 2013-12-02 11:20:53 UTC. There are 82 clients, 241 IPv4 servers and 52 IPv6 servers. ;-)
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06:34<djgummikuh>yeah :-( You need to recruit new playes
06:34<djgummikuh>I'm trying to deliver my share ;)
06:35<djgummikuh>by the way openttd really should have some kind of unique identifier (like these opensource q3 engine based games like xonotic, tremulous, unvanquished and so on provide) for easier user management.
06:37<djgummikuh>I believe xonotic even has a public/private key pair which is used to identify a client with the server.
06:38<Xaroth|Work>there's a plan for that, actually
06:39<Xaroth|Work>but plans vs reality, well.. they often aren't as linear as one would think
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06:56<__ln__>anyone been to the Berlin airshow?
06:56<@planetmaker>few years ago, yes
06:58<__ln__>was there enough to see?
07:01<@planetmaker>well, sufficient for a day for sure. But then, for me it's a quick and easy trip, less than 2 hours one-way
07:01<V453000>is Berlin not enough to see on itself? :P
07:01<__ln__>was there some aerobatics team performing with fighters?
07:02<@planetmaker>at least in one of the years I've been there, yes. I think also in the other
07:02<@planetmaker>they were then showing the eurofighter compete with Mig and Phantom
07:03<@planetmaker>they also had some artistic formation flights
07:03<__ln__>sounds good
07:03<@planetmaker>and flight show for new airbus and boing models
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07:06<__ln__>big passenger planes are one thing that are rarely demonstrated in finnish airshows, and not by their manufacturer anyway. not very surprising.
07:07<@planetmaker>flight show for the airbus looked kinda lame after the eurofighter show :P
07:09<__ln__>for decades there used to be this one flightshow in finland that took place in the evening and night. the fighter portion usually began around 22:00 and ended at 00:00.
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07:18<__ln__>anyone been to the Farnborough airshow?
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09:12<Killer11>Hello everyone
09:13<Killer11>I have received info on those upgraded 2M62's
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09:14<Killer11>2M62K is just an engine swap for a Kolomna diesel that gives the same amount of power
09:15<Killer11>2M62M however is aparently a brand new loco inside, the only thign left of the original is the frame and the electric drive, everythign else is new and their CAT engines develop 1700KW each instead of 1450KW of the original, that adds up to 500KW of extra power
09:15<Killer11>definitely warrants an extra loco in the set
09:18<Xaroth|Work>Taede: got your PR, will probably implement it slightly different
09:19<Taede>same end-result though?
09:20<Xaroth|Work>probably
09:21<Taede>:)
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09:31<@Belugas>hello
09:32<Killer11>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEyDPnyZEVM this vid is awesome.
09:32<Xaroth|Work>o/ Belugas
09:32<Taede>ello
09:32<Killer11>also hi
09:33<Killer11>:3
09:34<V453000>no hi
09:34<V453000>:E
09:35<V453000>oh god real trains
09:35<@Belugas>hello xaroth and the others :)
09:35<@planetmaker>hullo :)
09:36<Xaroth|Work>o>
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09:37<Killer11>That guy makes soem really good train vids, and manages to catch some unique situations, one of his vids is 3 2m62m's cought at the same spot, one returnign to railyard and two departing with 5 thousand ton trains, all in amazing HD
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11:50<lparch4>hi all :]
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11:54<Algabe>..... good bye all :]
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12:23<__ln__>i repeat: has anyone been to the Farnborough airshow?
12:26<@peter1138>Bah, steering input not centered in ETS2 on Linux :(
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12:47<Xaroth|Work>__ln__: nope, wouldn't mind going there once though
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26141 /trunk/src/lang (portuguese.txt turkish.txt) (2013-12-02 18:45:19 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>portuguese - 1 changes by vesgo
13:45<@DorpsGek>turkish - 39 changes by wakeup
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14:24<Wolf01>moin
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14:30<@Alberth>o/
14:31<andythenorth>o/
14:31<andythenorth>so the game I'm playing is kind of fun
14:32<andythenorth>I have some congested routes and crap to sort out, which is interesting
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14:36<andythenorth>trying to figure out how to make FIRS supplies work with cargodist
14:36<andythenorth>anyone tried that?
14:36<V453000>disable cargodist
14:37<andythenorth>ok that's option 1
14:37<andythenorth>any others? o-O
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15:30<@Alberth>I haven't had enough courage to try firs at all, together with cdist :)
15:30<andythenorth>Alberth: :P
15:30<@Alberth>With so many cargoes, it will become a nightmare very quickly, I think :)
15:30<@Alberth>even without supplies :p
15:31<andythenorth>it's ok on a basic economy (I'm playing temperate basic)
15:31<andythenorth>the supplies are just broken
15:31<andythenorth>cdist has no way of knowing the 'demand' that FIRS has
15:31<@Alberth>yeah, subsidies are also broken by cdist
15:31<andythenorth>it's a bit sad, because supplies finally got worked out, and now they're broken again :)
15:32<andythenorth>it's almost as though we could use a way for industries to express demand :(
15:32<andythenorth>for example, by posting demand onto tiles or such
15:33<@planetmaker>andythenorth, it's not broken. It just does work badly with cargodist
15:33<andythenorth>planetmaker: same thing :D
15:34<@planetmaker>Maybe 'cargodist' should become a global flag which could be checked by NewGRFs
15:34<@planetmaker>or is it already?
15:34<andythenorth>I guess the interesting question - is it solvable, or does FIRS need to be rethought again?
15:34<frosch123>what's the problem?
15:34<@planetmaker>you can't exactly do cargo requirements with the same algorithm for both cargodist and without
15:34<frosch123>nearby industries get too much supplies, far away ones none?
15:35<andythenorth>not quite - I found the setting to adjust that and tested it
15:35<andythenorth>cdist has no concept that a FIRS industry wants between n and m units of supplies delivered per month
15:35<andythenorth>n = low amount, m = high amount
15:36<andythenorth>and as a player, I have no way to circumvent cdist other than turn it off :)
15:36<andythenorth>a sticking plaster would be a newgrf cargo flag for cdist to ignore a cargo
15:36<frosch123>how should n and m affect routing?
15:38<andythenorth>I'm not sure
15:38<andythenorth>bit wary of specifying solutions for something I don't understand
15:38<frosch123>well, what are you heading for?
15:38<andythenorth>the problem is partly expressed by this screenshot
15:38<frosch123>you did not state any problem
15:39<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/5626/FIRS_cdist.png
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15:39<andythenorth>stating the problem takes a while to get out of my head :P
15:39<andythenorth>problems that are clear in my head are not so much to other people :P
15:40<frosch123>so, cargo is not evenly distributed? or not evenly loaded?
15:40<andythenorth>ok - ignore implementations. Problem from a gameplay perspective:
15:40<frosch123>in any case, you have too few vehicles
15:40<andythenorth>- I want to deliver correct amount of supplies to as many destination industries as possible
15:41<andythenorth>- I can't figure out how to do it with cdist
15:41<frosch123>build more vehicles maybe?
15:42<andythenorth>seems counter-intuitive
15:42<frosch123>maybe it is loading only the cargo for tanner road
15:42<andythenorth>no
15:42<frosch123>while tinklebury is waiting to be picked up
15:42<andythenorth>that's one of the counter-intuitive issues
15:42<andythenorth>tanner road barely gets any distribution
15:42<andythenorth>the link is very low capacity
15:42<andythenorth>one train, 3 wagons
15:42<andythenorth>spends months getting loaded
15:43<andythenorth>I could add more trains, but that's counter-intuitive
15:43<andythenorth>it's only a 25 tile hop
15:43<frosch123>so you want destinations independent of link capacities?
15:43<andythenorth>possibly
15:44<andythenorth>I don't want to jump to a solution, I'm not sure I have explained the problem correctly :)
15:44<frosch123>well, you are exceeding my knowledge of cdist then :p
15:44<andythenorth>an alternative is to remove supplies from FIRS
15:44<frosch123>i though capacities would only affect which route the cargo would taker
15:44<andythenorth>so that's 2 options
15:44<frosch123>not which destination
15:45<frosch123>removing supplies is no alternative :p
15:46<frosch123>you can always enable cdist only for pax&mail
15:46<frosch123>i actually wonder whether i should play a mail game for the first time in 20 years
15:46<andythenorth>:P
15:47<andythenorth>my observation so far is that cdist works for freight where the networks are simple
15:47<andythenorth>i.e. for each linkgraph, there are multiple sources and one destination
15:47<frosch123>that's like playing without cdist :pö
15:47<andythenorth>I am thinking of it as 'automated transfers'
15:47<andythenorth>it saves me setting orders
15:48<andythenorth>so far I can't make any sense of it where the linkgraph has more destinations
15:48<andythenorth>seems to work ok for PAX, kind of
15:48<frosch123>make a manual cdist patch then :p
15:48<frosch123>do not give load/unload orders
15:48<frosch123>but set the distribution amounts manually at the station :)
15:48<frosch123>10% north, 90% west
15:49<andythenorth>oh, like dispatcher orders?
15:49<andythenorth>umm, that's actually interesting :P
15:49<andythenorth>I have some distribution networks, e.g. delivering goods etc
15:49<andythenorth>I have spent some time building and destroying capacity on them, but can't understand the results
15:50<andythenorth>probably EAndythenorth
15:50<andythenorth>usually is
15:55<andythenorth>I guess there's some stuff that only pro players will really understand
15:56<@Alberth>and some other stuff that nobody understand :p
15:56<frosch123>i am not aware of anyone living from playing ottd
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15:57<andythenorth>maybe the 'game' is working out the emergent behaviour of the system?
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16:10<andythenorth>so is it a nasty kludge to put an 'ignored by cdist' flag on a cargo?
16:11<fonsinchen>In cargodist demand does _not_ depend on capacities, only on connectedness
16:12<fonsinchen>And yes, cargodist does not know about industries demanding between n and m amount of cargo
16:12<fonsinchen>It will generally have its own ideas on how much cargo to send where.
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16:12<fonsinchen>However, as stated before, the handler system is very modular. Someone could write a replacement for the demand handler.
16:13<fonsinchen>Or an additional one to be used as alternative to symmetric or asymmetric
16:13<fonsinchen>In that way a YACD-like thing could be written on top of cargodist, too.
16:14<fonsinchen>andythenorth, you should switch to "planned" mode in the station GUI to see what's really going on.
16:14<andythenorth>o_O
16:14<andythenorth>oh my :)
16:14<fonsinchen>There may be cargo stuck in other places further upstream
16:14<andythenorth>so many new drop down menus
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16:16*andythenorth had better go read the wiki
16:19<andythenorth>so I need bigger / faster trains
16:19<andythenorth>basically
16:20<andythenorth>so the solution to under-delivery is over-delivery
16:23<fonsinchen>You should carefully check where the cargo gets stuck and increase capacity where it is needed
16:24<andythenorth>hmm
16:25<andythenorth>I should probably just test by putting a bigger train on
16:25<andythenorth>it's a single hop, 20 tiles
16:25<andythenorth>there's no 'stuck' that I can see
16:25<fonsinchen>You probably know the link graph overlay for the smallmap and main viewport, do you?
16:26<fonsinchen>The yellow and red lines are generally the ones you should be looking at.
16:26<andythenorth>where is toggle for main viewport?
16:26<fonsinchen>In the map menu
16:27<fonsinchen>Also, you might just have enough capacity everywhere and cargodist is just not sending the "correct" amount of cargo to your industries
16:27<fonsinchen>If the industries are constantly changing their acceptance status the distribution will be unstable and change often, too
16:27<andythenorth>neat grf
16:28<fonsinchen>You can't really rely on the numbers, then.
16:28<andythenorth>neat overlay sorry :P
16:28<andythenorth>ok, so the link is barely used
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16:28<andythenorth>so I should put more capacity on it?
16:28<andythenorth>bigger train?
16:28<fonsinchen>no, if it's barely used, you don't have to increase capacity, of course ...
16:28<andythenorth>oh :(
16:29*fonsinchen prays for brain ...
16:31<andythenorth>ok I may have misunderstood cdist fundamentally :)
16:32<andythenorth>I think there's a fundamental problem that I am trying to trick cdist
16:32<frosch123>it pays back by tricking you?
16:33<andythenorth>double-trick :P
16:33<andythenorth>the point of cdist is that it decides where cargo goes, I just provide the transport routes?
16:37<fonsinchen>Yes
16:38<fonsinchen>What else would it do, after all ...
16:38<andythenorth>ok I'm doing it wrong :)
16:38<andythenorth>I have misunderstood cdist :)
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16:47<frosch123>night
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16:49<Eddi|zuHause>to understand cargodist, you have to forget everything you learned about yacd :p
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16:56<andythenorth>I thought I'd done that :P
16:56<andythenorth>nvm
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17:14<NGC3982>fastnar exif kvar i bilder när dom komprimeras och skickas som mms?
17:14<NGC3982>Oops. Wrong channel.
17:18<V453000>mms.
17:18<__ln__>en bra fråga i alla fall.
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17:19<Killer11>Hello
17:19<Killer11>is it possible to do locomotive running sounds trough NML ?
17:22<@planetmaker>yes, there's a sound callback
17:23<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Builtin_functions
17:23<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Sound_events
17:24<@planetmaker>sorry, sound_effect
17:26<Killer11>How do I use it tho, I can't really figure out where to put what and how the whole syntax would look like
17:27<Killer11>Like if I have a specific engine sound for a specific locomotive for which i want to use it
17:27<Killer11>where do I begin
17:29<Killer11>do i call these functions from the graphics section of the item definition? as stuff that is dealign more with usage logic than graphics seems to land in that place too
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18:06<Killer11>how does the "switch?" for locomotive running sound look?
18:06<Killer11>in nml
18:12<Wolf01>'night
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18:13<Killer11>"switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, SOUND_M62, sound("sound.wav"), SOUND_EVENT_RUNNING)" am i even close ?
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18:24<Killer11>neverminf, found the correct syntax on the forums]
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19:34<Killer11>engine running sound is really really weird
19:34<Killer11>sometimes it loops properly
19:34<Killer11>but sometimes it does whatever it wants
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21:33<geoffreybeene>Trains are pretty rad, dudes
21:33<geoffreybeene>big mf'ing machines
21:36<geoffreybeene>http://youtu.be/_cDGWw0y5fY
21:36<geoffreybeene>tjat
21:36<geoffreybeene>that is a lot of heavy stuff yo
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21:38<geoffreybeene>Does anyone in here do something liek OpenTTD for a living?
21:38<geoffreybeene>Logistics planning, freight distribution?
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22:37<Hazzard>mooo
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 03 00:00:00 2013