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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-12-03

---Logopened Tue Dec 03 00:00:00 2013
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00:11<geoffreybeene>if you're idling here, don't say anything
00:12<Supercheese>fight the power!
00:12<geoffreybeene>fight the man, man
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00:13<geoffreybeene>do you still play much ottd supercheese?
00:13<Supercheese>a bit here and there
00:14<Supercheese>I end up spending more time making patches and grfs than playing actual games
00:14<geoffreybeene>i'm just getting into it and its hard to find people to talk to about it, apparently
00:14<Supercheese>timezones, perhaps
00:14<Supercheese>I'm GMT -8, few people are near that in this channel
00:14<geoffreybeene>where do you thinkmost of this channel is?
00:14<Supercheese>Europe, definitely
00:15<geoffreybeene>i wonder why
00:15<geoffreybeene>oh bc the USA's rail system is crap
00:15<Supercheese>they tore up the rails in my town :(
00:15<Supercheese>used to run right through, no more
00:16<geoffreybeene>not getting much use?
00:16<Supercheese>yeah, they were worth more in scrap value apparently
00:16<geoffreybeene>damn, thats harsh
00:16<geoffreybeene>i'm gmt -6 for what its worth, Chicagoland
00:16<geoffreybeene>live right by the Burlington Northern Santa Fe route
00:17<Supercheese>well, I'm not too far from Spokane, WA, which is a big rail city
00:18<Supercheese>founded by the railroad companies, if I'm not mistaken
00:18<geoffreybeene>Oh cool, didn't know that
00:18<geoffreybeene>I'll be cycling through that area next summer
00:19<Supercheese>Northern Pacific Railway it seems
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00:21<geoffreybeene>since the advent of path signals, is there really any need for regular presignals?
00:21<Supercheese>not really IMO
00:22<Supercheese>not for my simple networks anyway :P
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00:41<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember actually using any others since then
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05:49<Killer11>good mornin'
06:00<Killer11>So why is sound handling for vehicle runnign sounds so weird
06:00<Killer11>i expected it to just play a sound in a loop
06:00<Killer11>but it seems that it plays a random ammount of repetitions whenever it wants
06:02<juzza1>if the sound is not exactly the same length as a single loop is, the previous sound will get overwritten and may sound weird
06:02<juzza1>so it doesn't actually stop playing when the loop ends
06:03<Killer11>how long is one loop?
06:04<Killer11>i mean what is the length of the soudn file one should use for an engine runnign sound
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06:05<juzza1>i've asked it a few times. in the specs it is mentioned as "per engine tick"
06:06<juzza1>but i've never gotten a precise answer to how long this tick is, so i cannot answer your question
06:07<Killer11>: / Shame because I've gotten myself some pretty clear and specific engine soudns i can use for my set
06:08<Killer11>All thanks to one guy filming local trains with a very good camera all of the time
06:08<juzza1>we also have some good engine sounds for Finnish Trainset, but never got them to sound just right because of this
06:09<Killer11>i'll try to bug planetmaker as he is "the father of nml" i guess
06:09<juzza1>one set that does the running sounds right is NARS, i tried decompiling it and looking at the sound files
06:10<Killer11>at least i can use the whistle/departing sound i guess
06:10<juzza1>they were mostly around one second long with a fade-out in the end, but i really couldnt duplicate that effect myself. the running sounds still sounded bad
06:11<Killer11>I had this idea of looping an engine soudn and adding that metalic clangy noise that railcars make in the background as a subtle thing
06:12<Killer11>weird thign itsometimes looped right even being 2 seconds long
06:12<Killer11>but most of the tiem it got messed up
06:12<Killer11>huge shame as it sounded really well when it sounded right
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06:13<NGC3982>It does sound like a neat thing.
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06:13<Killer11> arround 1 minute in
06:13<NGC3982>As long as many trains does not get too noisy.
06:13<Killer11>seeing as the backgroudn noises are just passing train/diesel it really fits diesel trains nicely and is easy to blend in
06:14<Killer11>i make it quiet and subtle and it just adds atmosphere
06:14<juzza1>yes, its great if you get it right
06:14<juzza1>in NARS, the hum of those diesels is almost soothing :P
06:15<Killer11>it's one thign i really liekd about RRT2
06:15<Killer11>that and the soundtrack
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06:15<NGC3982>There is a different sound in NARS trains?
06:15<NGC3982>I haven't noticed.
06:16<juzza1>yes, many electric/diesel trains have running sounds
06:16<juzza1>and steamers too, actually
06:17<NGC3982>I did not know NewGRFs came with sound packs at all.
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06:17<NGC3982>I mostly play muted.
06:17<NGC3982>With the game muted*
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06:27<Killer11>i have access to profesional microphones so i may go capture soem sounds for myself sometime in the future
06:28<Killer11>we have doubledecker EMUs here that have that distinct voltage change noise
06:28<Killer11>where the electric buzz pitches up in increments
06:28<Killer11>it sounds really cool and it's really audible every time the train departs
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11:36<@planetmaker>Killer11, with access to professional mics you could make a complete soundset. OpenTTD still misses a free soundset (i.e. one which can be shipped without 2nd though, under GPL v2(+))
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11:37<Killer11>might be something to do durign the summer
11:38<Killer11>i do happen to live very near an active railway station
11:38<@planetmaker>well. OpenTTD needs more sounds than just train :)
11:40<Killer11>I'll see if I can contribute
11:41<Killer11>So since you are here would you be able to shed some light on how the game handles vehicle running sound
11:41<frosch123>wow, forums are surprisingly non-spammy today. was there some downtime?
11:42<Killer11>and by that i mean how long does my engine sound have to be for it to loop properly
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11:44<@planetmaker>I wish I could, Killer11. I will need to investigate that, too. Unless frosch123 knows by heart
11:45<frosch123>they won't loop properly
11:45<@planetmaker>frosch123, not as far as I know. But I've not had much time to look :)
11:46<frosch123>the frequency for vehicle movement effects is not reliable enough to make a smooth sound
11:46<frosch123>you can hear that with pikka's sets
11:46<Killer11>dang, i guess i'll just have to dumb this idea then
11:47<Killer11>which makes me ask why is this implemented this way?
11:47<Killer11>you have the variable of engines current speed
11:47<Killer11>wouldn't it be simpler to just if vehicle speed >0 play sound X in a loop
11:47<frosch123>newgrf can only start a sound effect, they cannot specify to loop a sound effect
11:48<frosch123>starting the sound effect is thus attached to the game state
11:48<Killer11>using current speed you could also play different sounds at different speeds if you chose to
11:48<frosch123>the game speed changes with fast forward, and lag, and is generally not realtime-ish
11:48<frosch123>there was the idea to extent the newgrf specs by allowing grfs to tell ottd to loop a sound
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11:48<frosch123>but nothing was specified or even coded in that direction
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11:49<Killer11>wish i knew how to navigate or write complex code
11:50<Killer11>i'd probably tackle that thing, openttd needs an actual sound system really badly
11:50<Killer11>so much of a games atmosphere is driven by sound effects
11:50<frosch123>i generally mute all games
11:51<Killer11>i only mute when they sound bad
11:51<frosch123>sound is reserved for real music :)
11:51<frosch123>i don't want any ring ring in my music
11:51<Killer11>i wouldn't ever mute railroad tycoon 2 unless i wanted to listen to a podcast
11:52<Killer11>music is beutifully chosen, the train sounds are plain cool etc
11:52<Killer11>if we had actual sound control we could make it so effects like money ding and so on could be muted separately
11:53<Killer11>they are more notifiers than atmosphere
11:54<Killer11>yup, a comprehensive sound engine rewrite could make this game trully shine, it would also take tremendous effort tho.
11:55<Killer11>why can't we have nice things
11:55<frosch123>you can actually mute those sounds individually
11:57<Taede>'create your own sound set, omit sounds you do not wish to hear?'
11:57<frosch123>advanced settings
11:58<Killer11>ah yes i foudn it now
11:58<frosch123>maybe it is 1.4 only, cannot remember .)
11:58<Taede>nah, 1.3.3 has em too
11:58<Taede>just never noticed em
11:59<Killer11>is volume control of sfx/music accesable without starting a new game?
11:59<frosch123>if there is volume control at all, then you can also change it in game
11:59<frosch123>but i am not sure there actually is :p
11:59<Killer11>that is a giant flaw in the UI
11:59<Killer11>always was
12:00<Killer11>it's hidden all the way into the music player ingame
12:00<Killer11>you cannot adjust volume in the main menu
12:01<LordAro>evening all
12:01<Killer11>2.0 GUI rewamp seems like a good goal
12:02<Killer11>i've been playign this game for so many years i've gotten used to the extremely quirky menu
12:02<Killer11>but when i look at it now and think what a new player might think of it
12:02<Killer11>it's the most confusing and hard to navigate thing i've seen in a while
12:03<LordAro>we (the devs, not really including myself) are programmers, not designers ;)
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12:04<Killer11>Regarding the main menu that you see when you boot up the game, if I whipped up a representation of a new menu in say html just to show what I mean from usabilty perspective
12:04<Killer11>would you look at it and evaluate my suggestions?
12:04<frosch>there are a number of suggestions for that
12:04<LordAro>html is hardly necessary, just a series of pictures would do :l
12:05<frosch>there is a completely interactive html version of the mapgen gui
12:05<Killer11>interactivity is kidn of neccesary to shwo off interactive elements
12:05<LordAro>w/e :p
12:06<frosch> <- there are a bunch of htmls
12:06<frosch> <- there is also some
12:07<frosch>the problem is that when you make that stuff new from scratch you encounter dozen of small inconsistencies and weirdnesses
12:07<frosch>for which you have to decide how they shall actually behave
12:08<frosch>"generating a new random seed when opening the window" in "main menu" vs in "editor" is one of the weirdest ones
12:09<frosch>ottd has always been good when there were small steps to slowly improve things
12:09<frosch>but here you get quite a lot together
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12:10<Killer11>Knowing the origins of the original source this is not surprising, and any interface rewrite should begin by creating a clear layer of separation from game logic and gui
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12:15<Killer11>ottd wiki roadmpas section is silly
12:15<Killer11>"There is no idea what is going to be in 1.1.0."
12:15<LordAro>they haven't been updated in some time ;)
12:15<Killer11>you do have an internal roadmap between devs right?
12:15<LordAro>basically because there is no overall goal
12:16<LordAro>devs are aware of what other devs are working on, but other than that, probably not
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12:19<Killer11>At this point in time the ammount of incremental upgrades that coudl be doen to the base game is kind of low when you think about it, especially exlcudign the current tasks devs are workign on
12:20<Killer11>there are things they coudl do but all of them are huge, the sound engine rewrite i mentioned, the guy rewrite or the constantly thrown arround map array extension
12:20<Killer11>all those sound like 2.0 material
12:22<Killer11>then again easy for me to talk I have no idea on how the dev team is doing time-wise
12:22<Killer11>this is a free project afterall
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>there's loads of small things to do
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>like write the drawing part for diagonal rail/road crossings
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>ca. 30-50loc
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>i have all the functional parts (map array, pathfinder, etc.) somewhere
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>also the adjacent crossing patch needs something so you can safely upgrade old games
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>as in: road vehicles shouldn't suddenly start up and crash into the train right in front of them
12:28<Killer11>it's small in what the user sees, but might be huge codewise
12:28<Killer11>like longer rail vehicles without newgrf hacks
12:29<Killer11>end user sees longer vagon
12:29<Killer11>coder sees a coding nightmare
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>Killer11: my longer vehicles newgrf stuff isn't actually that much code
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>Killer11: btw have you gotten around to testing it?
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>Killer11: the problem with my approach to longer vehicles is that you need a lot more sprites
12:31<Killer11>i've been otherwise busy rebuildign my set and doing work for college, so not yet
12:32<Killer11>one thing i would really really liek to see in makign scenarios is the equvalent of Starcraft scenario triggers
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>first, for the "slicing" of vehicles so they don't glitch in tunnels etc (those are automatically cut by size/offset templates)
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>second for the turning angles so they don't stick out that far in curves (those cannot be created automatically)
12:33<Killer11>to enable ecnonomy changes/ prescripted events in scenarios
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>Killer11: well we have gamescripts for that
12:34<Killer11>can i set them to the poitn where if date = x then display custom newspaper text and all cargo payment rates = 50% of their original value
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12:35<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if the payment stuff is implemented (it certainly would be possible), but the rest should be easy
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12:37<Killer11>that's quite cool then
12:37<Killer11>i'll have to look it up
12:37<Killer11>can these scripts be saved into the map file
12:38<Killer11>so i don't have to throw random files on bananas
12:39<Killer11>And since I am spamming ideas one thing that i really liked in RRT2 was territories
12:39<Killer11>you could create a territory in a scenario editor and assign map tiles to it
12:39<Killer11>this way you could create "countries" and then could set prices for companies to buy permission to build in them
12:40<Killer11>it adds some extra gameplay especially in real world scenarios
12:41<Killer11>combine that with the whole recession thing and you could have different territories having different economies providing different challenges to the player
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>scripts have to be put on bananas separately, but you can hide them from general users so they're only downloaded when you donwload the scenario
12:45<Killer11>good to know
12:45<Killer11>I happen to have a map that's nearing completion and I might just have some uses for this stuff
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>zuu is the expert on these matters
12:47<Killer11>Still it would be cool if you played for example europe and chose to start in oen specific country and as certain events come up you could essentially dump a load of cash as "lobying" that would increase the chance of certain game events turnign out how you would like
12:48<Killer11>so for exampel if you play an eastern european country and your business is mostly with russia and your country decises to join either EU or a eastern country union of some sort
12:48<Killer11>it would be beneficial for your company to support the eastern union thign rather than EU as you'd have to pay less taxes etc
12:48<Killer11>current game is just too easy
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>i'm afraid there are a LOT of things missing until you can make this feature
12:49<Killer11>2.0 material
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12:49<Killer11>2.0 because it's big and 2.0 because this goes outside the original ttd concept
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12:51<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really see a 2.0 happening, as it would basically mean you artificially hold back some large things to make a bigger jump by releasing them all simultaneously
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>instead of incrementally adding them when they are ready
12:52<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: so ottd should drop the "1." of the version?
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: that would be a 4.0 then :p
12:53<LordAro>well, if 2.0 never happens, there's no point in having the "1." on the front of the version
12:53<LordAro>it'd only be like firefox changing their version system
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: the other option was to release 2.0 in 2020, so it continues to align with the year
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>(2013 = 1.3, 2014 = 1.4, ...)
12:54<LordAro>so there's no 1.10/1.A ? that's an option too :L
12:54<LordAro>1.10 would get confusing, anyway
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>and knowing Rubidium, it's going to be something entirely different anyway :p
12:55<Killer11>last tiem i saw this discussion on the forums
12:55<LordAro>OpenTTD, version ":-)"
12:55<Killer11>2.0 was talkede abotu as a thing that would go beyond the concept of ttd
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>Killer11: don't read the 2.0 thread :p
12:56<Killer11>as everything up to today was all just expanding the original concept
12:56<Killer11>makign existing thigns better
12:56<Killer11>now completely new gameplay elements could warrant a step up to version 2.0
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>Killer11: sure, things like cargodist are completely new game elements
12:57<Killer11>most 2.0 threads are full of peopel that think that 2.0 woudl happen in 5 seconds if devs woudl justl isten to them
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>but that alone doesn'T really warrant a 2.0
12:58<Killer11>that's more cargo behaviour than say
12:58<Killer11>addign cargo i nthe first place
12:58<Killer11>like addign a rudimentary "political" system would be
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>adding cargos was possible in 0.6 or so
12:59<Killer11>no i mean adding cargo element to the game
12:59<Killer11>like if ttsd was just a game where you build pretend railways and do nothign with them and then devs implement cargo and you can now transport it and earn money etc
12:59<Killer11>that's adding a new core element to the game
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13:00<Eddi|zuHause>Killer11: in the past ~2 years the development was more towards improving the modability (NewGRFs, scripts) than direct gameplay features
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>which means that the core game hardly changes, but an entirely new class of newgrfs may significantly alter the game
13:02<Killer11>so 0.x was making all the core features work 1.x is improvement on said features and modability 2.x could be adding new gameplay elements
13:02<LordAro>sounds like planning too far ahead, imo ;)
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>1.0 was defined as "we have a fully playable out-of-the-box game instead of depending on the original data files"
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>everything else was nice-to-have features
13:03<Killer11>long term plannign that is not too specific is a very healthy thign in any project
13:04<Killer11>and by sayign 2.0 could happen and it woudl involve tackling big things that would add new elements of the game doesn't mean it must happen right now
13:04<Killer11>every project must have a vision
13:04<Killer11>vision drives progress
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13:05<Eddi|zuHause>Killer11: the only step meaningful enough to warrant a 2.0 would be a "drop support for existing mods/backwards compatibility" to allow entirely new things, e.g. 3D models
13:05*Xaroth|Work grabs the popcorn
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't see anybody wanting to do such a move
13:06<Killer11>you just set up a move noone would like and then assume that is the only way we coudl call it a 2.0 that is kidn of cheaty
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>the general argument at this point would be: "make a game from scratch, and then call it something different"
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>Killer11: that's my point, anything short of such a "game-breaking" move might as well just be another 1.x release
13:08<Killer11>because adding rudimentary political system, calling it 2.0 and then putting the last 1.x version as the final of that branch bar bugfixes would also be a thing
13:08<Killer11>3d models are not gameplay features
13:08<Killer11>it's eyecandy, it has nothign to do with gameplay unless you also include freeform buildign etc
13:09<Killer11>which is a whole other can of worms
13:09<Killer11>big gameplay changes/additions are what could warrant version demarkations
13:10<Killer11>2.0 thing is a feature that has enough support as to be seen as a good change but too big to be simply turned off with a switch
13:11<Killer11>thus warranting games to be split into two, 1.0 and 2.0
13:12<V453000>or you can call your software version 9408 over 9000 by 408 and nobody can say shit either (:
13:12<V453000>its just a number
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>yes. that's why i said 3D, because it would drop support for all sprite-based NewGRFs
13:12<Killer11>yes but it's not the only example and that was my point
13:13<Killer11>you did claim that 3d is not a thign you or anyone else woudl want and it woudl stop the game from being ttd
13:13<Killer11>there are big features that alter gameplay in a way that make it not like current ttd but it's still i nthe same spirit and coudl be called a logical sequel
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't have to be 3D, it was more of an example
13:15<Killer11>"and i don't see anybody wanting to do such a move " it was a loaded example tho
13:16<Killer11>also just an aside no strategy game that only uses x and y dimensiosn for actual gameplay logic should be 3d
13:17<Killer11>there are big issues when you use 3d enviroment to try and visualize your completely 2d game
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26142 /trunk/src/lang (latvian.txt turkish.txt) (2013-12-03 18:45:16 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>latvian - 10 changes by Parastais
13:45<@DorpsGek>turkish - 49 changes by wakeup
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15:00<andythenorth>tickety tickety tock
15:01<frosch123>i have a script for that
15:03*andythenorth just had to set a clock on a windows VM
15:03<andythenorth>strange experience
15:03<frosch123>doesn't the vm sync to the host clock?
15:04<frosch123>i skipped installing ntp on my vms
15:04<andythenorth>you'd think it would sync
15:04<andythenorth>seems not
15:05<andythenorth>I paid £0 for my VM software, so shouldn't complain :P
15:05<andythenorth>didn't even pay for Windows, using their web dev testing free editions :P
15:05<frosch123>so, was it worth the £0 ?
15:07<andythenorth>yeah I think so
15:07<andythenorth>I would have happily paid twice as much
15:08<andythenorth>new graphics to add to IH
15:08*andythenorth busy busy
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15:18<V453000>andythenorth actually adds graphics, not code? :D :P
15:19<andythenorth>Dan drew them
15:19<V453000>I obviously figured that :P
15:19<V453000>wasnt so obviously but yeah!
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15:19<frosch123>are you comparing your sprite counts?
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15:23<andythenorth>white pixels
15:23<andythenorth>ho ho
15:23<andythenorth>must be christmas :P
15:24<V453000>hate white errors much
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15:34<Wolf01>hi hi
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16:20<andythenorth>how do cdist 'planned' amounts relate to actual cargo delivered to station?
16:20<andythenorth>i.e. industry is producing 180 crates / month; station has 58 crates planned for routing
16:21<frosch123>cdist only distributed the cargo which is delivered to stations
16:21<V453000>cdist doesnt exist
16:21<frosch123>the station rating affecting industry->station transfer is unaffected
16:21<andythenorth>frosch123: thanks, that adds up
16:21<V453000>NOE! :D
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16:22*andythenorth continues trying to game cdist
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16:24<andythenorth>there must be a way to trick cdist into re-allocating cargo to different destinations
16:24<andythenorth>(amounts allocated over time - I don't mean rerouting specific packets)
16:26<andythenorth>or to explain better
16:26<andythenorth>there must be a reason why cdist allocates cargo to destinations in certain ratios
16:26<andythenorth>which I am trying to figure out so I can beat it
16:32<andythenorth>didn't see any pattern yet :(
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16:54<frosch123>i don't get how python decides when a variable is module global, or function local
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20:52<checkbook>hey, is there a way to do a train order like: return to station IF full?
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21:46<Eddi|zuHause>checkbook: yes. conditional orders can check for "is full"
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---Logclosed Wed Dec 04 00:00:02 2013