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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-12-08

---Logopened Sun Dec 08 00:00:13 2013
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02:16<Eddi|zuHause>orudge: still in backup mode
02:16<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure it's the winter theme's fault :p
02:16<Eddi|zuHause>(correlation vs. causality :p)
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04:42<@planetmaker>moin
04:44-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host58-55-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
04:44<Wolf01>hello :D
04:45<@planetmaker>moin wolf
04:49<LordAro>moin
04:51<Taede>moin
04:56<V453000>hy
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04:58<@Alberth>moin
04:59<@planetmaker>ui, all wake up. moin moin all along :D
05:04<LordAro>:D
05:06<V453000>NO
05:06<V453000>(:
05:07<Xaroth|Work>mornin
05:10*Alberth makes breakfast for all
05:10*Taede makes tea and coffee
05:10*V453000 grabs beer
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05:16*LordAro is not surprised by V453000's breakfast choices
05:16<fonsinchen>V453000: ever tried beer-flavoured coffee?
05:17<V453000>I dont really drink coffee much
05:18<V453000>waste of time as you could be drinking beer in the meantime
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05:21<Taede>could make it an irish coffee
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05:25<V453000>yeah and if you put away the coffee, its perfect :P
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05:30<SpComb>tea *and* coffee?
05:31<Xaroth|Work>hmmm.. tea
05:32<SpComb>mm, coffee
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06:47<NGC3982>If i have two adjacent industries that both accept Engineering Supplies
06:47<NGC3982>And deliver Eng. Supplies to a station that is connected to both of them. Does the industry with >0% transported goods be the one that uses it?
06:49<andythenorth>maybe
06:49<andythenorth>maybe not
06:49<NGC3982>It is not certain?
06:49<andythenorth>AIUI, the industry with it's north tile closest to station sign gets it
06:49<andythenorth>might be wrong though, stations are weird
06:50<NGC3982>I see.
06:51*andythenorth looks for road docs
06:52<andythenorth>so do roads have a specific bit for catenary?
06:52<andythenorth>or is it just automatically drawn for trams
06:52<andythenorth>?
06:53<andythenorth>looks like there's a bit free anyway
06:53<V453000>ASPHALT_RAIL and ASPHALT_ELRL? :P
06:54<andythenorth>ha ha ha :)
06:58*andythenorth proposes roads-with-and-without-catenary and trams-with-and-without-catenary
06:59<@planetmaker>andythenorth, there's two road types, road and tram tracks. Tram tracks have catenary
06:59*MNIM proposes to actually implement roadtypes some time.
07:00<andythenorth>you and a lot of other people have proposed that ;)
07:00<andythenorth>I am -1 to roadtypes these days
07:00<@planetmaker>why?
07:01<V453000>railtypes solve everything XD
07:01<andythenorth>a *lot* of work for minimal gameplay benefit
07:01<MNIM>andythenorth: for years.
07:01<andythenorth>and loads more fiddly compatibility crap to deal with
07:01<andythenorth>roadtypes have some thorny problems
07:01<@planetmaker>it would follow the existing concept
07:01<MNIM>ah yes, 'compatibility'
07:01<@planetmaker>the only really thorny problem is town growth wrt road types :)
07:01<andythenorth>there aren't enough bits to write a spec for roadtypes that will get accepted
07:02<@planetmaker>thorny problem in design that is :)
07:02<andythenorth>there are problems with MP and ownership
07:02<@planetmaker>yeah, space there is an issue
07:02<andythenorth>there is some boring work to handle rail crossings
07:03<@planetmaker>not really
07:03<@planetmaker>they are handled by railtypes
07:03<@planetmaker>with railtypes present it currently works like
07:03<@planetmaker>*draw normal road
07:03<@planetmaker>*draw rail crossing sprite
07:03<@planetmaker>*draw possibly rail crossing lights
07:05<@planetmaker>I don't see a need to change that for other road types
07:05<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> the only really thorny problem is town growth wrt road types :) <-- why? a simple "towns may grow along this type" property should suffice
07:05<@planetmaker>it would, Eddi|zuHause, yes
07:05<andythenorth>didn't we discover that only two road types can be present on a tile?
07:05<andythenorth>and that there would be lots of fiddly messaging to player about what can be built or not
07:05<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes. but so?
07:06<@planetmaker>ah, you mean which two. yeah. that's the... big problem I guess. you're right
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc's map stuff may allow an arbitrary number of roadtypes
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>i do certainly see situation where i'd need 3
07:07<@planetmaker>we don't need the jack-of-all-trades roadtype combinatoric solution
07:08<@planetmaker>where would you need three, Eddi|zuHause ?
07:08<MNIM>Why would we not need them?
07:09<@planetmaker>MNIM, jack-of-all-trades is the enemy of a viable and possible solution
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: imagine a route that has both trolley bus and tram lines. then the tram line goes straight on, the trolley bus turns to the left, and a normal road to the right
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>how to make it so there isn't a catenary stump to the right?
07:10<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, two are sufficient, if trolley is compatible to tram
07:10<MNIM>oh yeah?
07:10<MNIM>I count three.
07:10<MNIM>Actually, more.
07:11<MNIM>road+rail+cat. - road+rail. - road+cat. - road. - rail+cat. rail.
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07:11<MNIM>(assuming some trams run without catenary, as steam trams are prone to do)
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: that's 4 roadtypes and combinations
07:12<MNIM>and that's before even considering different roadtypes like dirt road, city road, normal road and highway.
07:12<@planetmaker>MNIM, don't confuse 'all road types thinkable' with 'needed on one tile'
07:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause last time I saw this discussion you proved we don't have enough bits
07:12<MNIM>Oh, wait, you mean properties, not types.
07:12<andythenorth>there are also the problems like dirt road crossing tram
07:12<andythenorth>i.e. the requirement to define some types as incompatible
07:13<andythenorth>it also makes for trivial griefing
07:13<andythenorth>although the answer to that is well known
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>ignore griefing
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>that's a problem that is never solved by technical means
07:14<@Alberth>don't make things incompatible would be saner, imho
07:14<MNIM>^ +1
07:15<@planetmaker>so roads need an underlay, and an overlay
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but a "Stadtbahn" tram type that cannot be placed on road but has increased speed limit may provide additional gameplay value
07:15<@planetmaker>only one underlay is drawn, then two overlays
07:15<@planetmaker>but we need a way to define upper and lower roadtype
07:15<@planetmaker>or a sort-of priority
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>"placed on" means "occupy the same road bit", there would still be crossings allowed
07:17<MNIM>so then you would need to make sure it can recognize the difference between crossing and running along.
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that's a difficult problem
07:17<fonsinchen>frosch123: https://github.com/ulfhermann/openttd/commit/d9827049bc090e8a4ac8990819d226dddbb1a4e0 will show exact numbers for acceptance when building stations
07:18<fonsinchen>The question is how to rephrase that "Accepts:" string to tell people what that actually means...
07:18<MNIM>you're the coder, but either way I think the compatibility part of it can be delayed until the basic roadtypes feature is actually implemented (and proven)
07:19<MNIM>It is, at the very least something that cannot be made without doing the basic feature first, anyway.
07:19<MNIM>+/- ,
07:19<@planetmaker> MNIM there first should be a sensible design which allows extension
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: since we're in the design phase and not the implementation phase, that's no good argument at all
07:20<MNIM>unless said sensible design is really convoluted in the first place, that property should remain true regardless
07:21<frosch123>fonsinchen: i thought about using "coal (low), steel (medium), wood (high)"
07:21<fonsinchen>Well, try the patch and see what strange numbers the default industries produce already
07:21<frosch123>ok :p
07:21<fonsinchen>That high/medium/low threshold would have to be defined per cargo
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07:22<frosch123>how do i get a proper raw diff from github?
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07:23<fonsinchen>It used to be easy - you just had to add "raw" somewhere in the URL ... seems they've removed it
07:23<LordAro>frosch123: add ".diff" to the url
07:23<LordAro>google always knows ;)
07:23<frosch123>excellent interface :)
07:24<LordAro>well, stackoverflow knows often too :p
07:24<LordAro>:p
07:24<fonsinchen>in fact
07:24<LordAro>frosch123: afaik, it's because you're supposed to use pull requests, not raw diffs
07:25<@planetmaker>LordAro, but you want to know what to pull :)
07:25<LordAro>ah, but git[hub] handles that for you
07:25<frosch123>LordAro: fine for them, i just file it under crap
07:26<LordAro>funnily enough, github is focused on git -> git actions, not git -> svn
07:26<LordAro>a bit of an odd style choice i grant you, but at least they made it "easy" to get anyway
07:27<LordAro>even if there isn't a nice button to press
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>that is such a stupidity, that i can't even find a good analogy how stupid it is
07:27<@planetmaker>LordAro, raw diffs are not exactly odd for *any* vcs' review process
07:28<LordAro>ah yes, but you've got the diff in front of you, in a funny format, if you just pull this changeset, why would you need the raw diff?
07:29<fonsinchen>Let's not get into the vcs flamewar, please.
07:29<frosch123>so, some industries only accept with one tile
07:30<fonsinchen>most, actually
07:30<LordAro>fonsinchen: spoil sport :p
07:30<frosch123>while the factory does with 12
07:30<frosch123>(which is all)
07:30*andythenorth found an old roadtypes spec
07:30<fonsinchen>steel works can have ridiculous numbers, too
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07:31<frosch123>let's check toyland
07:31<frosch123>usually it is more well designed
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07:32<frosch123>in toyland the processing industries seem to consistently accept with all tiles
07:32<frosch123>no fancy "only one tile accepts" stuff
07:33<fonsinchen>There still are industries with 4 tiles and others with 12, though
07:34<frosch123>yeah, that's the argument we had about firs yesterday
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07:34<fonsinchen>In principle that's no problem for cargodist, nor is it a problem for grf authors if they can demands > 8 per tile
07:34<fonsinchen>However, it's a UI problem.
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07:35<fonsinchen>^... specify demands ...
07:35<frosch123>it is a problem if you mix stuff, it is also a problem for ais
07:35<andythenorth>http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=xk6AsVzX
07:35<andythenorth>roadtypes stuff ^
07:36<andythenorth>that's from April 2012
07:36<andythenorth>best we could get at the time
07:36<frosch123>so, i would claim that all tiles accepting 8/8 is the normal case
07:36<andythenorth>I might be wrong, but pikka I think had a simpler alternative solution, which was rejected
07:36<fonsinchen>What problem would AIs have with that?
07:36<frosch123>it is also the easier case for gameplay
07:36<fonsinchen>Towns accept less than 8/8
07:36<andythenorth>all tiles accepting 8/8 is the only sane solution for industries :P
07:37<fonsinchen>Why?
07:37<frosch123>fonsinchen: for ais it's the same as the gui
07:37<fonsinchen>can't you accept 15/8 to increase demand?
07:37<andythenorth>dicking around with station locations to add up tile acceptance is really boring gameplay
07:37<andythenorth>so less than 8/8 is just doing it wrong
07:37<fonsinchen>What about more than 8/8?
07:37<andythenorth>(for industry)
07:37<andythenorth>apologies :)
07:37<andythenorth>more than 8/8 never made sense - until now
07:38<frosch123>well, i think the only solution is to make it depend on the industry size or so
07:38<frosch123>or rather, first the gameplay question:
07:38<@planetmaker>I read specs to be valid 0-8 only so far :)
07:38<frosch123>shall demand depend on the amount of tiles you cover?
07:38<fonsinchen>Well it can be easily extended to 0-15
07:38<fonsinchen>we already have the bits
07:38<frosch123>i think we should ignore the specs details, until we know what the gameplay shall be like
07:39<andythenorth>no, demand should depend on coverage of any tile of industry
07:39<andythenorth>industry demand is specific to industry as a whole, not it's tiles
07:39<andythenorth>(is my proposal) :)
07:39<andythenorth>its *
07:39<frosch123>yeah, i would also think so :p
07:39<andythenorth>industry has its own internal transport :P You don't need to provide that :P
07:41<fonsinchen>I'm just saying that with very moderate changes we could make the demands accessible to GRFs
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07:41<fonsinchen>There's almost no work involved and it looks ok to me as everything else in that area works based on tiles.
07:41<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> I might be wrong, but pikka I think had a simpler alternative solution, which was rejected <-- pikka's "one roadtype per tile" solution suffers from combinatoric explosion when you want to provide anything more than trivial choices
07:42<andythenorth>fonsinchen: I am +1 to this idea, if I've understood correctly
07:42<andythenorth>at least we can test it :)
07:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so only provide trivial choices...?
07:42<andythenorth>how interesting are roadtypes anyway?
07:43<@peter1138>Not enough for me to do it yet.
07:43<frosch123>the question to make demeand accessible to newgrf is independent
07:43<frosch123>i still want to stress the gameplay: shall demand depend on the number of tiles a station convers?
07:44<frosch123>it makes sense for houses, but feels wrong for industries
07:44<andythenorth>yes
07:44<@planetmaker>yes, frosch123
07:44<andythenorth>yes is ambiguous answer, sorry :P
07:44<andythenorth>I agree that it's wrong for industries
07:44<@planetmaker>though actually for houses, they could be considered monolithic, too
07:45<frosch123>what?
07:45<@planetmaker>then it would be the same everywhere: cover one tile, get it all
07:45<frosch123>you both make no sense
07:45<andythenorth>even if that makes the implementation easy, doing it on tiles covered is not optimal
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>each house is a "monolith"
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>if you cover a 2x2 house on one tile, you cover the demand of the entire house
07:46<andythenorth>ok so covering a tile covers it's parent object?
07:46<frosch123>andythenorth: planetmaker: just to make it clear. if you have two factories with a station each. one station covers 12 tiles of the industry, the other station 6 tiles of the other industry. should the 12 tile station get twice the cargo routed than the 6 tile one?
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: no
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07:47<@planetmaker>hu? no. Station size and covered size of any item should not matter. Cover one tile, get all output
07:47<frosch123>input, not output
07:48*Alberth imagines the fights for the optimal delivery spot in competition play :p
07:48<fonsinchen>actually houses are not monolithic, nor atomic in that sense
07:48<frosch123>there is no competition
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07:48<frosch123>you only control the weights in your own network
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: but they should be :)
07:49<frosch123>there is nothing unfair about it, it's just an insanely complex game mechanic
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that concept feels totally wrong
07:49<@planetmaker>Also for input. Or using station-walk is required by gameplay
07:50<fonsinchen>The whole thing only comes into play if you want to influence the distribution algorithm on a fine grained level
07:50<frosch123>planetmaker: it does not affect the total amount in the network, only the distribution within your network
07:50<fonsinchen>It's not really an everyday problem.
07:50<frosch123>fonsinchen: the problem is that most people do not want to influence the distribution algorithm
07:50<frosch123>but will rather be completely confused why some industries get no cargo
07:50<frosch123>while others are flooded
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: but people not aware of the mechanic will wonder why one industry gets 90% of the cargo and the trains to the other industry are empty, clogging up the pickup station
07:52<andythenorth>that happens currently with cdist anyway
07:52<andythenorth>my game has that
07:52<andythenorth>so I'd suggest it's a non-issue ;)
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's mostly the distance
07:52<andythenorth>I've turned distance off some years ago
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123, fonsinchen: if you really want to allow the player to fine tune it, let them assign a weight to the station manually
07:54<andythenorth>I do wonder if manual is easiest solution
07:54<fonsinchen>Maybe I should just ignore the numbers and only check for >0 in the demands calculation after all.
07:54<andythenorth>I was yesterday trying to work out how a newgrf industry would increase or decrease demand
07:54<fonsinchen>andythenorth: can I see one of your games?
07:55<frosch123>fonsinchen: you mean ">= 8" ?
07:55<andythenorth>fonsinchen: yes - later :) Got to go do chores
07:55<fonsinchen>frosch123: depends on what number you get as input
07:55<andythenorth>I'll have to give you some newgrfs as well
07:55<fonsinchen>OK
07:56<@planetmaker>fonsinchen, I don't find the numbers I get with your patch with default industries that bad
07:56<@planetmaker>especially for towns the display of actual numbers is nice to see best place to put a station
07:57<fonsinchen>Imagine someone covering one tile of a steel works with a station and all 12 tiles with another station
07:57<fonsinchen>The second station will get 12 times as much cargo.
07:57<fonsinchen>And the player won't understand that.
07:57<@planetmaker>they won't without any indicator
07:57<@planetmaker>they will, if station acceptance quantity is shown
07:58<fonsinchen>True, that's why I wrote that patch. However, how do you translate those numbers for people who have no idea what we're talking about here?
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>they won't if they load an older savegame and their network breaks down for no reason
07:59<fonsinchen>If they load an older savegame cargodist is off. Problem solved.
07:59<MNIM>'compatibility'
07:59<@Alberth>fonsinchen: as percentage of total acceptance for all tiles?
07:59<fonsinchen>what is "all tiles"?
08:00<@Alberth>all tiles belonging to an entity which you have covered by at least one tile
08:00<@Alberth>but I am not sure it's a good measure
08:01<@Alberth>otoh, I don't know a better one currently
08:01<fonsinchen>The whole point of it is that newGRF authors could dynamically change acceptance levels. Then the percentage doesn't help
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: if you want newgrf authors to take influence, you should provide a new property/callback, and not hack it into some unrelated/unprepared old property
08:03<@Alberth>percentage of theoretical max accepted cargo for all tiles with non-zero acceptance?
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08:04<fonsinchen>Eddi|zuHause: "acceptance" and "demand" are basically the same thing, aren't they?
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: no
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: a small medieval smith may accept metal and produce tools, the "acceptance" would be the same as a modern factory, but the "demand" would be much lower
08:06<fonsinchen>Acceptance is thus defined as (demand > 0) ? true : false
08:06<fonsinchen>This is what I mean as basically the same.
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: which brings us back to the original problem: "acceptance" is currenty a property if industrytiles, while "demand" should be a property of industry (as a whole)
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>*of
08:08<fonsinchen>I think we're stuck here. I will think about it some more.
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08:20<Phreeze>hiho, is there an expert in NML ? getting a NewGRF error when clicking on the refit button of my train (but only once, the very first time trying to refit from 3 to 4 cars)
08:21<@planetmaker>that's rather unspecific, Phreeze
08:21<Phreeze>it's an error about cargo_subtype 0x19
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>might be better suited for the forum, where you can give a more elaborate explanation/example
08:21<@planetmaker>also mind, that a refit cannot change the number of vehicles in a consist
08:22<@planetmaker>it can only change the looks of them
08:22<Phreeze>yeah, it's a pseudo refit ;) from the tutorial
08:22<Phreeze>shortens 1 waggon to 7/8 + 1/8 invis
08:23<Phreeze>is it normal that i only get the error once ? if i sell the train and rebuild it, i dont get the same error again
08:23<@planetmaker>you can only do this refit in a depot, mind that
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it uses cached results after that
08:24<Phreeze>yep i know
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>but really, without any details nobody can tell what your problem is
08:24<@Alberth>or it suppresses more reports
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08:25<frosch123>Phreeze: you say you get an error
08:25<frosch123>what error?
08:26<Phreeze>Newgrf (myset) has errors:
08:26<Phreeze>Callback 0x19 returned unknown/invalid result 0x7fff
08:26<Phreeze>7fff in decimal is about 32757 or so
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>7fff is the maximum that can be returned
08:27<frosch123>these newgrf errors are only reported once
08:27<Phreeze>got this in a red error box after clicking on the refit button on my newly build train
08:27<frosch123>then ottd suppresses them to not annoy the player about broken grf
08:27<frosch123>and yes, 7ffff is an invalid result
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>often meaning "invalid"
08:27<Phreeze>k...i doublechecked my switches that have the cargo_subtype in them
08:28<frosch123>you shoudl returns 0x400 or a string
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>can you paste the code?
08:28<Phreeze>i paste the code on pastebin or so, wait a sec
08:29<frosch123>paste.openttdcoop.org is faster most of the times
08:29<Phreeze>http://pastebin.com/Mn2yW70b
08:29<Phreeze>oh i didn't know that paste-link
08:30<frosch123> return CB_RESULT_NO_MORE_ARTICULATED_PARTS; <- that's wrong
08:31<frosch123>it should be CB_RESULT_NO_TEXT
08:31<Phreeze>should i just leave that line away ?
08:31<Phreeze>k
08:31<frosch123>the callback is about subtypes, not articulated parts :)
08:32<Phreeze>i just analysed the "whole code" from the tutorial
08:32<Phreeze>on the last page of the train tutorial, and it shows other parts than before
08:32<Phreeze>in the complete code it says return 0xFF
08:32<Phreeze>in the tutorial pages back, it said the NO_MORE_ART....
08:32<frosch123>0xFF may have worked in nml 0.2, but is wrong now
08:33<frosch123>can you give a link to those pages?
08:33<Phreeze>http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial/Train_recolour
08:33<Phreeze>under "TOTAL CODE"
08:33<Phreeze>this part has an 0xFF too: /* --- Articulated part callback --- */ switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, sw_icm_articulated_part, extra_callback_info1) { /* Add three articulated parts, for a total of four */ 1 .. 3: return item_icm; return 0xFF;
08:34<Phreeze>and the start stop callback too
08:34<Phreeze>these 3 are the only ones
08:36<Phreeze>Error is gone, many thx for the help :)
08:36<Phreeze>getting to understand the mechanics more and more
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08:41<frosch123>fixed those two pages, at least i hope so :)
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08:43<@planetmaker>ty ^
08:45<Phreeze>good job ;)
08:46<@planetmaker>tutorials get old :S
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08:56<Phreeze>but help a lot
08:56<@planetmaker>it was no argument of mine against tutorials :)
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09:07<andythenorth>so I had to drive for a couple of hours yesterday, and spent some time thinking about how industries would want to adjust demand
09:08<andythenorth>and I couldn't find a good answer without specifying actual quantities
09:08<andythenorth>it looks nice and neat to use scale-free (relative) demands
09:08<andythenorth>but thats not how something like FIRS works :(
09:08<andythenorth>for which I would apologise, except it's the result of endless discussion and *lots* of testing :)
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09:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26147 /trunk/bin/baseset (6 files) (2013-12-08 14:49:47 UTC)
09:49<@DorpsGek>-Update: Baseset translations
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10:13<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26148 trunk/src/script/api/script_order.cpp (2013-12-08 15:13:06 UTC)
10:13<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5824] (r25735): Script API failed for vehicles with only implicit orders.
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10:44<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26149 /trunk/src/script/api (6 files) (2013-12-08 15:44:09 UTC)
10:44<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5825]: [Script] Various API functions did not check whether ScrtipRoad::SetCurrentRoadType was called appropiately.
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11:05<andythenorth>hmm
11:06<andythenorth>maybe I can loop over preceeding vehicles until I find one with ID of lead unit
11:06<andythenorth>then I know what position current vehicle is in
11:06<andythenorth>that switch will need generating :P
11:08<@planetmaker> position_in_consist and position_in_vehid_chain are not enough?
11:12<frosch123>andy wants position in consist of consecutive articulated vehicles with same front vehicle id, while ignoreing ids of articulated parts, which differ
11:12<frosch123>or something like that :p
11:12<frosch123>we could add a new var, which skipps artic parts
11:13<andythenorth>I need to know position within articulated vehicle
11:13<andythenorth>I don't mind figuring it out compile side
11:14<frosch123>meanwhile, not asking V: is it ok to remove rv from the game? :p
11:14<frosch123>the movement code is too cryptic
11:14<andythenorth>I am -0.3 to that :P
11:15<andythenorth>although some parts of the idea are appealing :)
11:15<@planetmaker>roads are just rails without rails :P
11:16<andythenorth>frosch123: can you list any downsides to your plan? o_O
11:16<frosch123>andythenorth: worst part is to acknowledge V
11:16<andythenorth>we could just weigh positives and negatives, whichever wins, wins
11:16<andythenorth>that is a pretty big downside actually
11:16<andythenorth>that's about -255 or so
11:16<@planetmaker>:D
11:17<andythenorth>still...the game needs more features
11:17<andythenorth>feature: fewer transport types
11:17<@planetmaker>isn't that called 'streamlining'?
11:17<@planetmaker>:D
11:18<@planetmaker>or profile sharpening
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11:18<frosch123>or focussing
11:18<andythenorth>pruning dead code?
11:19<andythenorth>also it would have performance benefits
11:19<@planetmaker>that has again negative connotation ;) Euphemisms rule
11:19<andythenorth>and we could modernise the newgrf spec
11:20<andythenorth>frosch123: by any chance you're reading the tram code?
11:20<andythenorth>and the stuff that moves it around sharp or not-sharp curves?
11:20<andythenorth>and the stuff iirc that attempts to stop trams getting stuck (that does't work)
11:21<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> the movement code is too cryptic <-- move it to the new NewGRF-able airport state machine specs :)
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>the way i imagined it could work: the state machine controls the position of the lead vehicle, the vehicle stores the last 8 (-shorter_vehicle) positions, and on movement it pushes the last value into the next following vehicle in the chain
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. following vehicles will just move along the same path the lead vehicle took
11:24<frosch123>andythenorth: no, rb experimentally removed some code which obviously made no sense
11:24<frosch123>now there is a fs task, and if i readd that code, it works :p
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>then one could start designing (hardcoded) state machines for the road tiles, which include overtaking and balancing two lanes in the same direction
11:25<frosch123>now i removed the code that makes no sense in a different way, and it also seems to work
11:25<frosch123>but it is silly :p
11:27<George>What is the right way to get the year vehicle at position was build?
11:27<George>checking var C4 would be enough?
11:27<George>or it has value 00 for 1920 and does not allow to check years before 1920 and after 2175?
11:28<frosch123>all 80+x only work 1920-2175
11:28<frosch123>but there is 49
11:28<frosch123>var 49
11:29<NGC3982>I'ma build a got damn slave cart for year 1 to 1810.
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11:30<frosch123>NGC3982: what? don't you know what vehicles they had back then? http://www.designbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/steampunk_rocket_car_zvzpe.jpg
11:30<NGC3982>Jesus.
11:30<NGC3982>Although, i would not really want to transport coal with that.
11:31<frosch123>yeah, tenders are a problem with rocket cars
11:32<@planetmaker>:) you need to invent push service for those
11:32<NGC3982>Slaves > Rocket cars.
11:33<George>frosch123: thanks
11:33<frosch123>yw
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12:20<alluke>is is possible to write a grf that removes maglev bridges from tbrs?
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>no, you can only modify that grf directly to not add them
12:27<alluke>damn
12:27<alluke>but there are other grfs that mod others
12:27<alluke>like ecs/firs extensions for trainsets
12:28<V453000>which add things, not remove
12:29<alluke>ugh
12:30<alluke>what about a grf that replaces the maglev bridges with new ones?
12:37<fonsinchen>+1 to removing rv - at the same time allow rails on top of any kind of road.
12:38<fonsinchen>Instantly solves the "I have to bulldoze half the town to place a station" problem
12:38<andythenorth>just remove road
12:39<fonsinchen>Also a fun idea. But implies a new town growth algorithm
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>the RRT way: towns move out of the way when you build rails
12:41<andythenorth>grow along tracks
12:41<andythenorth>and rivers
12:41<andythenorth>hmm
12:41<andythenorth>also rivers suck
12:41<andythenorth>remove those too
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>remove the game, start over!
12:42<fonsinchen>What is the last trunk revision you can cleanly rebase YACD onto? 24990?
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12:42<Eddi|zuHause>i think there's a patch around for that
12:43<alluke>my problem is that i had to disable transrapid bridges to get nice metro (monorail) bridges https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/sillat.png
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: use SMITS instead of these silly "optical illusion" tracks
12:45<alluke>i dont like how they look
12:45<alluke>too clean and bright
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>the whole game is "clean and bright"
12:46<alluke>yeah
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13:20<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26150 trunk/src/script/api/script_company.cpp (2013-12-08 18:20:14 UTC)
13:20<@DorpsGek>-Revert (r26120): EnforcePrecondition alters the last-error status and is only meant for commands.
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26151 /trunk/src/lang (luxembourgish.txt turkish.txt) (2013-12-08 18:45:14 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>luxembourgish - 37 changes by Phreeze
13:45<@DorpsGek>turkish - 40 changes by wakeup
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14:31<andythenorth>hmm
14:31<andythenorth>be nice if I could just zip a game + it's newgrf deps :P
14:31<andythenorth>I guess that would have....issues :(
14:32<NGC3982>I really love running.
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15:07<alluke>is there any tutorial for making ng tracks from bg?
15:07<@Alberth>aq
15:08<alluke>?
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>drawing or coding?
15:08<alluke>drawing
15:08<alluke>the I directions are easy to do
15:08<@Alberth>alluke: I have that problem with abbreviations like "ng" or "bg"
15:09<alluke>narrow gauge / broad gauge
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>MB had some opinions on how wide the tracks should be
15:09<@Alberth>less than a tile would be fine, imho
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15:10<alluke>i had in mind that i halven the gauge
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15:13<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1069524#p1069524 <-- but i didn't quite understood which measure the "5px" refer to
15:15<alluke>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1004368/ng.png ive got only 2 sprites narrow'd so far
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16:20<juzza1>edit this if you want to try finnish stuff https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/frissrails/repository/changes/xcf/tracks.xcf
16:20<juzza1>those graphics are deprecated
16:22<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26152 trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp (2013-12-08 21:22:03 UTC)
16:22<@DorpsGek>-Revert/Fix (r26118) [FS#5822]: While the condition is non-sense, the 'true' case is required for articulated parts and the 'false' case is required for savegame compatibility.
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16:54<frosch123>night
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17:52<Wolf01>'night all
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19:54<Superuser>http://www.indiedb.com/games/openttd
19:54<Superuser>Make sure OpenTTD gets nominated for IOTY 2013. Vote above!
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22:03<geoffreybeene>just got an android phone
22:03<geoffreybeene>and ottd for the phone haha
22:03<geoffreybeene>it makes me miss my mouse :|
22:14<The3rdIcon>I can't figure out for the life of me how to set the train in one direction. When I put down signals. They just stop. I tried to read the wiki and I'm still lost
22:24<The3rdIcon>There are a lot of people in here for no one talking
22:28<Superuser>it's IRC
22:28<Superuser>goddamn facebook generation
22:29<Superuser>The3rdIcon: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090807223026AAeYUBa
22:30<Superuser>a lot of these people are using a bouncer, so they're probably not even at their computers
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22:53<geoffreybeene>yeah irc is basically all idle all the time
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---Logclosed Mon Dec 09 00:00:14 2013