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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-12-15

---Logopened Sun Dec 15 00:00:35 2013
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08:18<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Has your cat become sentient now?
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>can you disprove it? :p
08:23<fonsinchen>Let's have a little poll: Who of you would prefer destinations to distribution for town cargoes (passengers, mail, goods, food, water)?
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08:24<fonsinchen>Who generally prefers distribution over destinations, also for non-town cargoes?
08:26<fonsinchen>I'm just thinking that destinations don't make much sense if you have 20 towns in the list of places to be served. So I'm pondering if I can restrict the whole thing to industries only.
08:26<fonsinchen>This would make everything a bit simpler.
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08:27<@planetmaker>how does that make it simpler, fonsinchen ?
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08:28<fonsinchen>Not having to drag around the SourceType everywhere would be nice
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08:28<fonsinchen>Also Headquarters are also a kind of source and they're hard to support
08:29<fonsinchen>Allowing only distribution (symmetric or asymmetric) or manual for pax and mail resolves that problem quite nicely.
08:30<@planetmaker>fonsinchen, houses can accept any cargo
08:31<fonsinchen>Hrm, I see. They can also accept stuff for which there is no town effect, I guess.
08:31<fonsinchen>But how would I know about that anyway when only looking at the towns.
08:31<@planetmaker>it's just a matter of writing the NewGRF such that they do
08:31<fonsinchen>Let me check that ...
08:33<fonsinchen>Apparently Town will account for maximum NUM_CARGO supplied cargoes, but only NUM_TE accepted ones.
08:33<fonsinchen>That is ... interesting.
08:35<@planetmaker>oh, fonsinchen they can also *produce* any cargo
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: just make a record of the cargos during the tile loop?
08:36<@planetmaker>callback 0x2E for houses
08:36*fonsinchen hates adding things to the tile loop.
08:36<+michi_cc>fonsinchen: I think you can guess my poll choice :)
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: if you need a test case, try ECSHouses, it has a fuel station coded as house
08:37<fonsinchen>michi_cc, have you seen what the town windows look like in YACD when you have many big towns?
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>but it only has like 6/8 acceptance, so you need two of them...
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>which is one of the most stupid design decisions...
08:38<+michi_cc>Yes, but that might simply mean that one of the scale factors has to be bigger.
08:38*fonsinchen has to go back to the drawing board.
08:39<fonsinchen>It's even messier than I had though.
08:39<+michi_cc>fonsinchen: Keeping track of house acceptance isn't hard and not much of a performance problem (
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08:40<+michi_cc>Exactly because of those stupid x/8 problems I decided from the start to only go down to 4x4 tile squares.
08:43<+michi_cc>Together with and it is IMHO quite a good approximation of station acceptance.
08:43<fonsinchen>But why would you actually use the houses at all? That commit you're quoting stores all necessary information in Town. Each station is associated to a town and knows what cargo it gets. No need to make it even more fiddly, I'd say.
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>the point was to decide the destinations _before_ you have a station?
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08:45<+michi_cc>Because cargo destinations don't depend on whether there is a station or not, i.e. if you don't cover all houses in a town you're not going to get all possible cargo (to ease start-up the center tiles of the house get a much bigger proportion of the cargo than the outliers).
08:46<fonsinchen>Because of d2d24d you can calculate destinations based on the information already available from Town and Industry, right?
08:47<fonsinchen>Then you have, like in YACD "town X wants to deliver to town Y, town Z and town ZZ".
08:47<fonsinchen>Isn't that enough?
08:47<+michi_cc>If you include the commit after d2d24d, yes (collects industry *tile* acceptance).
08:48<+michi_cc>If the town is the destination, then yes. But for YACD the destinations is the actual house (well, 4x4 map square) and not the town itself.
08:49<fonsinchen>Which commit is the one after d2d24d?
08:50<+michi_cc> (
08:50<fonsinchen>And why do you want the 4x4 squares to be the destinations instead of towns?
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>because of inner-city transport?
08:50<fonsinchen>Just say the town delivers to itself
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08:52<fonsinchen>The demands algorithm just has to make sure that no _station_ has itself as destination.
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>but then you can get away with just dropping the people off at the main station, instead of bringing them to their homes
08:53<+michi_cc>Because I explicitly want to encourage building an inner-city distribution network over just needing to plop a single big station in the middle of the town.
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08:54<fonsinchen>If you just plop a big station in the middle you'll miss out on the inner-city transported pax
08:54<fonsinchen>You need at least 2
08:55<fonsinchen>And then, to cover the whole town, you typically need multiple stations anyway and the demands algorithm can assign demands to them
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08:56<fonsinchen>The cargo destination assignment has to be separate from he station demand assignment anyway.
08:56<+michi_cc>And due to the weights that are assigned to each square you even get something resembling a commute pattern (e.g. in-town pax from the outside areas of the town are more likely heading to the city center than some other outside area). More "realism" :p
08:57<fonsinchen>Well, you get that with pure distribution, too. Say, in current trunk, you only build an inner-city network in one town.
08:58<fonsinchen>Then the symmetric distribution will make sure that you get a lot of center to outside commutes
08:58<fonsinchen>(and the other way round of course)
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09:00<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: the main difference between destinations and distribution is that in distribution you can safely leave out areas, you're only going to miss cargo that gets produced at this area. with destinations you miss the cargo that gets produced in this are AND the cargo that wants to go to this area
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>so there is a higher penalty for leaving this area out
09:00<fonsinchen>I know. What I'm trying to figure out now is the necessary granularity
09:00<+michi_cc>In the end it is simply personal opinion what the "right" way is. I still consider the destinations part of YACD a lot better than the routing part (all performance problems are almost only in the routing part, the destination generation is almost invisible on profiling) and quite well though out.
09:01<fonsinchen>I have actually rebased the destinations part on current trunk. It works fine.
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09:03<fonsinchen>Now I'm wondering if I should use that or rewrite it in a simpler way. The fact that data is scattered around all over the place doesn't make it easy to integrate the destinations into the link graph.
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09:04<fonsinchen>I was more thinking about centralized lists of sources, sinks and their mappings by cargo which can easily be copied into a link graph job.
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>a DestinationPool?
09:06<fonsinchen>More like exactly NUM_CARGO Destinations objects.
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09:13<frosch123>doesn't the difference between town destinations and 4x4 map square destination become important when towns grow into one town, and the houses beloging to different towns are directly adjacent?
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09:15<fonsinchen>Sure, that is a problem. If we just go by town associated to a station we get wrong results then.
09:16<fonsinchen>We may need a towns_near member in Station at some point to fix that
09:17<fonsinchen>But for now, the direct town association is good enough, I think.
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09:17<fonsinchen>While we're at it we could also add a headquarters_near, for added fun.
09:18<fonsinchen>In no case we really need the 4x4 squares, I think.
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09:28<andythenorth>michi_cc: "Because I explicitly want to encourage building an inner-city distribution network over just needing to plop a single big station in the middle of the town." <- that was one of the fun parts of YACD, but it could use less granularity :)
09:28<andythenorth>smaller *
09:28<andythenorth>fewer *
09:29<andythenorth>I don't know the correct term :)
09:29<andythenorth>anyway, after you've done it a few times, placing bus or tram stops every 8 tiles or so - the fun wears off :)
09:29<andythenorth>8x8 tiles, and assume people walk?
09:30<andythenorth>introduce weather :P They only walk on some days :P
09:30<+michi_cc>Catchment radius of bus stops is till only 3 tiles...
09:30<andythenorth>oic :)
09:31<+michi_cc>The 4x4 isn't random, but influenced quite a bit by station catchment.
09:31<andythenorth>in case of confusion, I do think it's a good design choice :)
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09:32<andythenorth>but I found it very hard to not have pax pile up in large cities
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09:32<andythenorth>after a while I would have thousands waiting and didn't bother trying to fix
09:33<andythenorth>maybe it's a pax generation issue, or a vehicle set issue, not the destinations mechanic
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09:56<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is that the "cargo wating" vs. "station rating" feedback effect is not working well
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>but that doesn't really have anything to do with destinations
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>it's just without destinations/distribution it's easier to ignore
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10:10<Eddi|zuHause>that's what you do when you're up to your knees in water
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10:20<MNIM>no, that would be wading.
10:20<andythenorth>also /me played YACD with RV stops patched to 5 tile catchments locally :P
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10:25<andythenorth>moving pax inside cities with YACD is a good challenge :D
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10:27<_johannes_>Hey, can I please get help? We wanted to setup a game with additional newgrf features, but now the default trains (including coal waggons) are missing. How to re-enable them?
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10:32<_johannes_>No one has an answer?
10:32<_johannes_>Must be a simple question...
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>which newgrf are you trying to use?
10:33<andythenorth>afaik there's nothing you can do
10:33<andythenorth>you need a new game
10:34<_johannes_>I can start a new game, this is no problem
10:34<_johannes_>but how do I start a new game with both newgrf trains and default trains?
10:35<_johannes_>I want to use "Generic European Train Set (GES)"
10:36<andythenorth>it probably disables default trains
10:36<andythenorth>most sets do
10:36<_johannes_>hmm why?
10:36<andythenorth>because most train sets assume you want to replace default trains
10:37<andythenorth>you could try adding OGFX+ trains
10:37<andythenorth>it's pretty much a recreation of the default trains + some extra stuff
10:37<andythenorth>I'm guessing your problem is that you are missing vehicles for some cargos?
10:38<_johannes_>coal, for example
10:38<andythenorth>that's a sign of an unfinished newgrf
10:38<andythenorth>I wouldn't bother with it
10:38<andythenorth>try something better
10:38<andythenorth>it's probably subtly broken in other ways
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>_johannes_: most newgrf sets have wagons that can be refitted to more than one cargo.
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>so if you think "there is no wagon that loads coal", you might need to look closer
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. whether the one that loads iron ore may be refitted to coal
10:40<_johannes_>ok trying ogfx+ now
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>(you need to do that in a depot)
10:40<andythenorth>is there a good, finished, Euro train set?
10:40<andythenorth>DB Set?
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>what are your criteria for "good" or "finished"?
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>the DBSet has some strange design choices, partially due to its age
10:43<andythenorth>I think I mean 'coherent' and 'supports the most used industry newgrfs'
10:43<andythenorth>also 'not ugly'
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>the DBSet has certainly big problems with "supports industry sets"
10:44<andythenorth>$someone should really make a Euro train set :P
10:44*Eddi|zuHause whistles innocently
10:50<andythenorth>IH will have Euro options
10:50<andythenorth>likely a scandi version, a france/germany version, and some kind of mediterranean thing
10:51<_johannes_>Hey, thanks andythenorth , Eddi|zuHause , it works!
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11:18<andythenorth>fonsinchen: to (not) answer your question - town cargos pose a problem
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11:19<andythenorth>having lots of destinations is horrible
11:19<andythenorth>only having distribution is kind of odd :(
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14:43<andythenorth>ok so (this is wrt FIRS, but probably applies elsewhere)
14:43<andythenorth>destinations are more _realistic_ :P
14:43<andythenorth>town cargos should be distributed in small volumes to many places
14:43<andythenorth>using RVs etc
14:44<andythenorth>but in most games I play, I just dump them, unrealistically, into industries with trains
14:44<andythenorth>because routing lots of trucks individually is boring
14:45<andythenorth>so what do we want to optimise for? :)
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14:49<krinn>hi guys, passing by just to says devzone is sick
14:50<frosch123>yup, since around 16:30
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14:52<krinn>ok nothing new so
14:53*andythenorth is making a FIRS change
14:53<krinn>hg pull is also down, but must be link problem
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14:53<andythenorth>with compile time, this change will take until next week :D
14:55<krinn>ccache is a badass, but it could be of help if well use
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15:23<andythenorth>ho ho 6 mins to compile FIRS
15:23<andythenorth>making mistakes will be expensive :D
15:28*andythenorth made a mistake :(
15:38<andythenorth>matrix transforms in my head o_O
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>that's easy
15:39*andythenorth has one industry layout, rotated 4 times for different angles
15:39<andythenorth>it's not hard, just requires care :P
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>make a code generator
15:39<andythenorth>ho ho :)
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15:39<andythenorth>I think for this particular case, that is the absolute definition of over-engineering :)
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15:41<Eddi|zuHause>only if you use a "framework" instead of writing 10 lines of python cone
15:44<andythenorth>it's an April Fools?
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15:49<andythenorth>it's not an April fools
15:51<andythenorth>nor is this compile time sadly :(
15:52<frosch123>maybe fools are timeless
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16:07<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: didn't some guys at 4chan start an implementation, but github threw them out?
16:08<Zuu>andythenorth: having lots of destinations but not perfect information about where (people) want to go is realistic :-)
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16:08<Zuu>Though it can also be argued that having 4x4 zones or similar is also realistic.
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16:10<andythenorth>another 6 minute mistake :P
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16:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: reimplement nmlc in c++ :)
16:10<djura-san>so, what is the upper year number limit in openttd?
16:11<andythenorth>he he
16:11<andythenorth>or reimplement FIRS
16:11<@planetmaker>djura-san, 5000000
16:11<andythenorth>one grf per industry
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>djura-san: 5000000
16:11<@planetmaker>and even then it just doesn't count up
16:11<andythenorth>or just use the compile time flag I made to only compile one industry :(
16:11<andythenorth>silly /me
16:11<djura-san>planetmaker & Eddi|zuHause : wow. I'm only at 4332 :>
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>djura-san: someone once thought that 1920-2090 wasn't a good range, so they extended it
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>to 0-5000000
16:13<djura-san>Eddi|zuHause: Nice. That could give me a lot time to play
16:14<Zuu>And when you finnally reach year the maximum year, that year will cycle forever.
16:14<andythenorth>ultimate daylength :D
16:14<djura-san>also, i played a lot of this game offline and i noticed that it is virtually impossible to start tiny city and develop it. I tired to make something like 3x3 grid town and i was not able to stabilize it's economy. Still, i made some progress.
16:14<@peter1138>Hmm... who did that?
16:14<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: dunno, but good news, they (or someone else) have a new home on bitbucket:
16:14<djura-san>Zuu: \o/. Infinite game. i Like that because not i have a lot of money on a crappy build to experiment :)
16:15<Zuu>Good luck on reaching year 5 000 000 :-)
16:15<@peter1138>It was always infinite. It just stays at the last year possible.
16:15<djura-san>that is very good to hear.
16:16<Zuu>(although it is actually quite easy to reach it - if you allow using the change year cheat)
16:16<@peter1138>We ruined TTD by turning it into a neverending sandbox...
16:16<djura-san>Anyway, any good advices to develop small city with only busses maybe? I'm very interested to try this out. THe condition is to build only one city and build it road piece by road.
16:17<Zuu>If you want to grow a town, have 5 stations with good service in the town.
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>someone recently told me that TTD looped in 2070
16:17<Zuu>If the town is in desert/snow you need to supply at least one unit of the required cargo each month.
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>as far as i remember, i never went past 2030 (original TT end year)
16:19<Zuu>And if you want some more interesting growth logic, there are currently 7 town growth related Game Scripts available through online content download.
16:20<djura-san>Zuu: i wanna have full controll over the town growth. I made a big mistake with my first build: i got 2 towns (randomly generated), i made 2x2 train tracks and i stabilized it and let town build their own roads. THe result are crappy houses everywhere that ruined my symetry. I wanted to build samll town and force it to replace small houses with big ones. I managed to do that in a way but buses are still way to expenssive at the moment.
16:20<djura-san>So i treid minimal thing: no industries, small town (<500) and growth controll.
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>djura-san: there is a setting to turn off road construction for towns
16:21<djura-san>But it is not going well so far. I managed to progress a little but not enough to make it stable (to earn money and dont loose it when i have to renew my buses)
16:21<djura-san>Eddi|zuHause: i did that :)
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>djura-san: but it will only build larger houses when there is a certain number of houses
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>so the area with roads should not be too small
16:22<djura-san>i see. Are there any numbers about this that i can see (other than source review)?
16:23<andythenorth>ho ho a 2 min compile, with just 1 industry type
16:23<Xaroth|Work>Eddi|zuHause: run nmlc with pypy ?
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth|Work: what
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>'s that supposet to help?
16:23<Xaroth|Work>pypy speeds python code up by a lot
16:23<andythenorth>in some cases
16:24<Xaroth|Work>most cases
16:24<@planetmaker>in this case... I might trust andy more :P
16:25<@planetmaker>of course they want to sell it :)
16:25<Eddi|zuHause># du hast nie gelernt dich zu artikulieren
16:25<Eddi|zuHause># und deine Eltern hatten niemals für dich Zeit
16:25<Eddi|zuHause># ohohooooh
16:26<@planetmaker>that is *so* old, Eddi|zuHause ;)
16:26<@planetmaker>also... "artizukulie-ieren" ;)
16:26<andythenorth>Xaroth: test it? o_O
16:26<andythenorth>get a FIRS checkout, tell us which is faster
16:27<Xaroth|Work>might need to install nmlc first on this box, hm
16:28<Eddi|zuHause># du hast nie gelernt dich artizukulieren
16:28<Eddi|zuHause># und deine Freundin die hat niemals für dich Zeit
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16:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the artizu-... is only in the last refrain
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16:56<andythenorth>1 step closer to next FIRS release
16:56*andythenorth time for bed
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16:58<Xaroth|Work>nmlc is being annoying with imports
16:58<Xaroth|Work>ah, much better
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17:00<@planetmaker>what can be made better, Xaroth ?
17:00<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: me using the right version
17:00<Xaroth|Work>the pip installed an older version
17:00<Xaroth|Work>that imported PIL.Image wrong
17:01<Xaroth|Work>nightly does so the right way
17:01<@planetmaker>he, ok :)
17:01<@planetmaker>yeah, time for 0.3.0 soonish
17:01<Xaroth|Work>now i need FIRS
17:01<Xaroth|Work>and some info on how that is compiled :o
17:01<Xaroth|Work>or.. something that takes a while
17:02<@planetmaker>clone firs. And call make
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>and then replace the config option to use pypy
17:02<@planetmaker>after one run of make you'll have a firs.nml in the main dir. which you then could pipe through nml w/o any other pre-processing
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17:14<Xaroth|Work>andy should add something that bitches about missing libraries before it tries to spend a minute doing things :P
17:16<Xaroth|Work>chameleon first, then markdown
17:16<@planetmaker> <-- some of the stuff mentioned there
17:18<djura-san>oh, this utlimate buldozer can be usefull to obliterate cities :D
17:19<Xaroth|Work>real 4m57.957s
17:19<Xaroth|Work>user 4m33.913s
17:19<Xaroth|Work>thats the first run
17:19<@planetmaker>nml caches stuff
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17:27<Eddi|zuHause>that is one of the weirdest engines i've ever seen:,file=90097
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>i should put it in CETS :p
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17:42<Xaroth|Work>ok, after caching: user 2m27.525s
17:42<Xaroth|Work>now pypy
17:43<Xaroth|Work>.. if that worked
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18:11<Xaroth|Work>python 2.7:
18:12<Xaroth|Work>user 2m18.809s
18:12<Xaroth|Work>user 1m3.588s
18:12<Xaroth|Work>a nice 50% speed increase right there
18:14<Xaroth|Work>oddly enough, binary files differ
18:16<LordAro>uh oh
18:17<Xaroth|Work>doesn't have to be a bad thing though
18:17<LordAro>but what could differ in the grf?
18:18<Xaroth|Work>order of items?
18:18<LordAro>order wouldn't affect the size of things, would it?
18:18<Xaroth|Work>no, but it would yield diffs in the binary format
18:18<LordAro>oh right
18:18<LordAro>are they different sizes though?
18:19<Xaroth|Work>size is identical
18:19<LordAro>probably alright then :)
18:19<Xaroth|Work>2 runs with python yield the same file, 2 runs with pypy yield the same file
18:19<Xaroth|Work>but there's a binary diff between python and pypy
18:21<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: what one could do, is tweak the nml installer to install as nmlc-pypy when setting up through pypy .. then have the Makefile for the projects check between nmlc and nmlc-pypy
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18:23<Xaroth|Work>then again, you can run the same nmlc file through pypy as long as you've installed it using pypy as well
18:23<Xaroth|Work>(which is annoying as installing stuff for pypy tends to overwrite some files ..)
18:24<Xaroth|Work>(making pip and easy_install install for pypy by default, for example, instead of making a pip-pypy2.2 (like it does a pip-2.7) )
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20:08<krushia>are there any fun features in trunk that aren't in 1.3.3?
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20:22<krushia>Eddi|zuHause: like?
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---Logclosed Mon Dec 16 00:00:34 2013