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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-12-16

---Logopened Mon Dec 16 00:00:34 2013
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04:24<George>Good morning.
04:24<George>Can anyone tell me what tracker does devzone use?
04:27<@planetmaker>DevZone uses Redmine
04:27<@planetmaker>hello George :)
04:30<Xaroth|Work>o/ planetmaker
04:30<Xaroth|Work>did you get my spam from last night?
04:31<@planetmaker>hey Xaroth yeah, just reading back now. Sounds interesting speed gain
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04:36<Xaroth|Work>pypy gives a really nice speed gain most of the time, it's just a pita to get working
04:37<@planetmaker>I never used it. What's the pitfalls?
04:37<Xaroth|Work>er, basically it installs as if it's a different python version
04:37<Xaroth|Work>but libraries with scripts (i.e. easy_install) aren't always aware
04:38<Xaroth|Work>so they override your system's version to only use pypy
04:38<Xaroth|Work>which is annoying if you want to run it side-by-side
04:39<Xaroth|Work>ofcourse, that's mainly only setting-up issues
04:39<Xaroth|Work>once the libraries are installed (and the scripts fixed to remain using python), you're fine
04:39<@planetmaker>I see.
04:40<Xaroth|Work>you can then run nmlc's script through pypy, rather than through python (so instead of /usr/local/lib/nmlc <args> you run pypy /usr/local/lib/nmlc <args> )
04:40<Xaroth|Work>there's only 1 pitfall
04:40<@planetmaker>sounds quite annoying but can be handled
04:40<Xaroth|Work>that I can see at this point
04:40<Xaroth|Work>binary output differs (but same in size) between pypy and python2.7
04:41<Xaroth|Work>I -think- that's due to a tuple or dict being iterated upon
04:41<@planetmaker>that's easy enough done by providing NML=pypy /path/to/nmlc on Makefile command line
04:41<Xaroth|Work>and those aren't fixed-order (where list and ordereddict are)
04:41<@planetmaker>Output being different... well.... yeah, might explain it. As long as the effective grf result ingame isn't different :)
04:42<Xaroth|Work>well
04:42<Xaroth|Work>the md5 differs
04:42<Xaroth|Work>so firs compiled with python 2.7 will yield a different hash than firs compiled with pypy
04:43<@planetmaker>so does FIRS when compiled with nmlc version X vs. nmlc version Y
04:45<Xaroth|Work>fair enough then
04:51<Xaroth|Work>if you want me to do a few more timing runs, lemme know.
04:57<@planetmaker>thanks :)
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05:17<@peter1138>Eh, same nmlc version should give the same output.
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05:25<@planetmaker>you might read again, peter1138 ;)
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05:30<andythenorth>Xaroth|Work: presumably you can virtualenv pypy same as any other python version?
05:31<Xaroth|Work>should work
05:31<Xaroth|Work>I installed my version globally
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05:31<Xaroth|Work>was quite pleased with the speed increase
05:32<andythenorth>I guess I should find a build of pypy :P
05:33<andythenorth>hmm the python buildout can do it
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05:34<Xaroth|Work>if you're running ubuntu, there's a PPA for it
05:34<Xaroth|Work>works like a charm
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05:34<andythenorth>OS X
05:34<Xaroth|Work>ah
05:34<andythenorth>I'll figure it out later
05:34<Xaroth|Work>you'll want 2.2.1 btw
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05:35<Xaroth|Work>1.8 series doesn't work well with Pillow
05:40<@peter1138>planetmaker, I read that different versions give different output (obviously fine) but that when the difference is python 2.7 vs pypy (no nmlc version difference specified) it differs also.
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05:44<Xaroth|Work>peter1138: correct
05:44<Xaroth|Work>pypy output != py2.7 output
05:56<@planetmaker>peter1138, yeah, but I'm not too concerned as indeed automatic ordering is done which can be done one way or another. Or real sprites aranged one way or another.
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06:01<@peter1138>different output from same version makes unittesting... well... pointless
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06:05<@planetmaker>you use a different compiler then effectively. So that's kinda expected, no?
06:05<@planetmaker>Different optimizations
06:06<@planetmaker>the interesting question will be whether the regression tests nml ships with - they need to work regardless
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06:07<@Alberth>moin
06:07<@planetmaker>hi :)
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06:13<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: if you point me in the right direction I can have my compile box run those tests on pypy?
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06:14<@planetmaker>Xaroth, checkout nml. cd regressions. run make
06:14<Xaroth|Work>rgr
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06:14<@planetmaker>or just run 'make regressions' might also work
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06:15<@planetmaker>make regression
06:15<@planetmaker>just in main nml dir
06:15<Xaroth|Work>now to force pypy, hm
06:19<Xaroth|Work>so far so good
06:20<Xaroth|Work>all 30 tests done
06:20<Xaroth|Work>no warnings/error/whatever
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06:59<@planetmaker>so that's good :)
06:59<@planetmaker>The crucial things are the same then :)
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13:15<Neighbour>so I just compiled a dedicated server with the daylength patch and now i can't join it ("Could not load savegame" on client)..what's wrong?
13:16<Neighbour>(server on debian, client on win7 x64)
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>you must use the exact same patch on both client and server
13:16<Neighbour>ah, that would explain it :)
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>and the location of the config file must be writable
13:16<Neighbour>the client is unpatched, so that must be it
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>also you violated the versioning which clearly must state that the version has modifications
13:18<Neighbour>?
13:18<@Alberth>you return the wrong version number to the client
13:18<Neighbour>yes, but nothing in the game told me that
13:18<@Alberth>or it would not even attempt to connect
13:19<Neighbour>nothing in the debug log of the server either (-d 9)
13:19<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26161 trunk/src/newgrf_storage.h (2013-12-16 18:18:58 UTC)
13:19<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5830] (r22567) (r25956-ish): Backup data of altered persistent storage arrays was freed twice.
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>your compile is wrong
13:19<Neighbour>i just followed the readme...how could that be wrong?
13:20<@Alberth>I doubt the readme covers custom patching :)
13:20<Neighbour>btw, the configure-script should also check for the presence of pkg-config before using it
13:21<Neighbour>stuff failed in the configure script, it claimed because libraries were missing, but that wasn't the case (library presence is checked using pkg-config, which was actually missing)
13:21<@Alberth>if you compile from within a source checkout, the build will change the program name to state you're made changes to the source
13:22<Neighbour>ah, that could be the difference...i didn't compile from a source checkout, just from the downloaded source .gz
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13:25<Neighbour>thanks :)
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26162 trunk/src/lang/thai.txt (2013-12-16 18:45:08 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>thai - 1 changes by nirakanz
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13:47<Pauli>Servus
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14:23<Wolf01>hello o/
14:33<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
14:45<Xaroth|Work>andythenorth: got pypy working yet? :P
14:46<andythenorth>nah
14:46<andythenorth>didn't try yet
14:47<andythenorth>too busy watching slow compiles
14:47<andythenorth>where's that xkcd strip?
14:47*Alberth is watching slow fish ships :)
14:48<andythenorth>o_O
14:48<andythenorth>there's a parameter for that :P
14:49<@Alberth>oh, it's even squid alpha 1 :)
14:49<@Alberth>but it's set to "ideal", cannot be better right? :)
14:49<andythenorth>he he
14:50<andythenorth>Alberth: at least try the latest version :(
14:50<andythenorth>it will entirely break your savegame
14:50<andythenorth>but what's a savegame loss between friends? :P
14:50<@Alberth>trying to connect firs industries, but there are too many, and too diverse cargoes :p
14:51<andythenorth>Alberth: which economy?
14:51<@Alberth>firs economy
14:52<@Alberth>maybe have a simpler default?
14:53<@Alberth>time tabling of ships works nicely to get a regular service :)
14:54<@Alberth>also, you can use fishing grounds as nodes in the cdist network to distribute fish
14:54<andythenorth>yes
14:54<andythenorth>I am wondering about a simpler default FIRS
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14:56<@Alberth>if you're considering playing with nuts, the PURR tracks are a bit tooo colourful
15:01<andythenorth>Alberth: tried a FIRS basic economy ever? o_O
15:05<@Alberth>I think I did
15:06<andythenorth>definitely more relaxing
15:06<@Alberth>the tropical one iirc
15:07<andythenorth>afaict, about 24 cargos and 24 industries is the max sane amount for even a complex game
15:07<andythenorth>and the basic ones are about 16 and 16
15:07<@Alberth>definitely, but these things just happen; it's hard to get all grfs and all parameters right for a game
15:08<andythenorth>isn't it :)
15:08<andythenorth>so hard for example, that I add grfs or change settings on every game I play :)
15:09<andythenorth>sometimes I wonder about packaging grfs into packs
15:09<andythenorth>thereby ensuring (for example) that vehicles are provided for the cargos in an industry grf
15:09<@Alberth>I was so happy I had added a tram grf, only to find it only carries pax :p
15:09<andythenorth>and providing settings like 'harder' and 'easier'
15:10<andythenorth>he he :)
15:10<@Alberth>thus making andy-style getting grain from farms impossible :)
15:10<andythenorth>just add HEQS :P
15:10<andythenorth>probably nothing goes wrong :P
15:11<andythenorth>adding is usually safe
15:11<@Alberth>oh, either I live without it, or I start a new game :)
15:11<@Alberth>in this case, trucks worked too :)
15:12<andythenorth>I wish I could think of a solution to this :)
15:12<andythenorth>on the one hand choice is good
15:12<andythenorth>on the other sane choices require knowledge and a good memory :P
15:13<@Alberth>you want some compose assistance
15:14<@Alberth>"you added non-standard cargoes, should I add foo grf as well?"
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15:15<@Alberth>[x] use trams for industrial cargoes
15:16<@Alberth>[x] always use newest grf
15:16<@Alberth>[ ] add scenery for harbours
15:16<andythenorth>something like that
15:17<andythenorth>or express dependencies or something
15:17<andythenorth>I wondered if new scenario format could be used as packaging
15:18<@Alberth>you need some "provides" or "supports" dependencies
15:19<@Alberth>not in its current form, as it ties the setup to that scenario then
15:20<@Alberth>I am not even sure it has newgrf support, but if it has, it's probably not much more than a simple list
15:20<andythenorth>is it a similar problem to ports trees?
15:20<@Alberth>?
15:22<@Alberth>I have a similar problem with save games. I have a bunch of them at the disk, and the name indicates which ones belong together, and the game date, but it's impossible to find eg the one with firs basic economy
15:22<@Alberth>or what they were about
15:22<@Alberth>I always have to load one of them before I remember
15:23<@Alberth>saving a thumbnail in the game would be so useful here :p
15:23<andythenorth>screenshot preview?
15:24<@Alberth>something like that
15:24<andythenorth>I found a nice quote the other day, about the illusion of big features versus removing all the small limitations
15:24<andythenorth>limitations / irritations
15:24<andythenorth>can't find it now, but nvm
15:24<andythenorth>pinning the window size is my favourite feature this year I think :)
15:24<@Alberth>I can imagine it :)
15:25<andythenorth>big features just add more new places to be irritated :)
15:25<@Alberth>sure, but on the other hand, you cannot add eg cdist by doing small steps
15:26<andythenorth>indeed
15:27<@Alberth>it seems you need big features to open up new areas
15:27<andythenorth>agreed
15:27<andythenorth>I think there's somehow a diminishing return on them somewhere
15:27<@Alberth>but I agree polishing the user experience is also worth a lot
15:28<@Alberth>perhaps integrating a big features in the other game play makes it increasingly harder to add new big features?
15:29<andythenorth>I think so
15:29<andythenorth>that's what I've found in other places
15:29<andythenorth>more dimensions to consider
15:29<@Alberth>if you drop a new piece of functionality in the middle, everything has to shift itself into a new place
15:29<@Alberth>and re-think how they relate to the new feature and each other
15:30<andythenorth>unless it's totally orthogonal
15:30<andythenorth>anyway, we might have a new FIRS for christmas :)
15:30<@Alberth>imo it hardly ever is completely orthogonal
15:31<@Alberth>or it somewhat means you're adding a new feature not related to all existing features :)
15:31<andythenorth>agree
15:31<@Alberth>:o new firs
15:31<@Alberth>what have you been cooking? :)
15:32<andythenorth>new economy
15:32<andythenorth>started in June
15:32<andythenorth>had it 90% done by September
15:32<andythenorth>been trying to find time to finish it :)
15:32<@Alberth>always a hard problem :)
15:33<andythenorth>specially if you start a train set :P
15:34<@Alberth>I tend to extend eints in such cases :)
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15:35<andythenorth>lo DabuYu
15:35<andythenorth>oops
15:35<andythenorth>lo DanMacK sorry :)
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15:47<DanMacK>lol, hey
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16:49<frosch123>night
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17:13*andythenorth bed
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17:29<Neighbour>is there a working daylength patch?
17:31<Neighbour>because the daylength patch (01 and 02) from http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=46399&start=0 gives an assertion failure with the current build
17:32<Taede>don't think there are any working with current trunk revisions
17:34<Taede>are you using the binaries from that thread, or are you compiling your own?
17:34<Neighbour>compiling my own, since i want to run a dedicated server and have a few friends join the game
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17:36<Taede>if you're dead set on daylenght, i'd advise using the trunk version reported in that same thread
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17:36<Taede>or find a patch-pack which may be based on a more recent version (though i think a lot of them are behind a significant bit as well)
17:37<Neighbour>i was looking for a way to make a single game last weeks (real time)
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17:40<Taede>best you can do with current trunk is to set min_clients to 1 (so the game is paused unless theres at least one player in a company), and maybe using vehicle sets that have a wider range of introduction dates
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>Neighbour: i had a "hotfix" for the asserition somewhere
17:53<Neighbour>Eddi|zuHause: sounds interesting...still have it? :)
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>[Mittwoch, 1. Mai 2013] [20:42:32] <Eddi|zuHause> hm, this is totally awkward, but i just put "if (_date_daylength_factor == 0) _date_daylength_factor = 1;" into "MakeNewgameSettingsLive()" now
18:01<Neighbour>Eddi|zuHause: which file is that? MakeNewgameSettingsLive() exists in 3 cpp files
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18:01<Neighbour>oh, nm...2 extern declarations
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>there should only be one definition
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18:12<Neighbour>Eddi|zuHause: yep, that works
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18:46<Wolf01>'night
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18:53<Neighbour>Taede: which setting is min_clients in the .cfg? and which section does it go in? (it's not there by default and the wiki doesn't say)
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 17 00:00:36 2013