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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-12-17

---Logopened Tue Dec 17 00:00:36 2013
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01:55<Taede>Neighbour: its min_active_clients
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04:15<__ln__>http://news.php.net/php.internals/70691
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04:20<Xaroth|Work>__ln__: that pretty much sums up all of php
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05:30<andythenorth>moin
05:36<@Alberth>o/
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06:05<andythenorth>so I am going to put a new FIRS out near Christmas
06:05<andythenorth>anyone can help test the new economy to see if I've missed anything?
06:14<@Alberth>sounds like fun, currently trying to fix an nml error though
06:15<@Alberth>can action 8 or 14 refer to anything that is defined before them?
06:15<@Alberth>hmm, maybe nml can take care of that problem by itself
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06:26<@Alberth>andythenorth: ok, what should I do?
06:27<andythenorth>get FIRS from bundles
06:27<andythenorth>I'll find the url
06:27<andythenorth>this should work http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/
06:27<andythenorth>set economy parameter to Heart of Darkness
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: nothing except deactivation/compatibility checks should be before action 8/14
06:28<andythenorth>try a game, see if I've missed any obvious things, like new cargo icons, cargo labels, broken industry layouts, tile acceptance, wrong cargos etc :)
06:28<andythenorth>usually I make mistakes with tiles and cargos :P
06:28<andythenorth>I've tested it for gameplay and I think it's ok
06:28<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: hmm, those are not so easy to detect I guess
06:28<andythenorth>docs are here http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#MISTAH_KURTZ
06:29<andythenorth>map and cargo colours I often forget too :)
06:29<andythenorth>Alberth: ogfx + tropical might suit this btw ;)
06:29<andythenorth>and HEQS trams
06:29<andythenorth>and squid
06:30<@Alberth>announcement needs some thinking too thus :p
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i guess allowing actions 6/7/9/D and B should be sufficient
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>if B is the "show error message" thingie
06:31<@Alberth>ok, thanks
06:33<@Alberth>gah, stupid file names of bundles :(
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06:42<andythenorth>?
06:42<@Alberth>all firs bundles are named "firs.tar.zip", and contain firs/firs.grf
06:43<@Alberth>so you cannot download a version and just drop it into the newgrf folder
06:44<@Alberth>nor can you easily find out what version a given .tar file is
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06:44<@Alberth>andythenorth: tile acceptance should be the same for all tiles?
06:44<andythenorth>should be yes :)
06:44<andythenorth>most industries have only one tile defined, so it can't vary
06:45<andythenorth>some have two (the second one is for animation, or used on water or such)
06:45<@Alberth>eg diamond mine northern tile does not accept Engineering supplies
06:45<andythenorth>hmm
06:45*andythenorth checks :)
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06:45<andythenorth>oh :)
06:46<andythenorth>wonder why that is :)
06:46<andythenorth>thanks, I'll file a bug
06:48<@Alberth>should I file bugs for things that I find?
06:48<andythenorth>please :)
06:48<andythenorth>if you don't mind
06:48<@Alberth>explaining to you or making a bug is about the same amount of work :)
06:53<Eddi|zuHause><Alberth> all firs bundles are named "firs.tar.zip", and contain firs/firs.grf <-- isn't that something the makefile should handle?
06:55<@Alberth>no idea, it manages to insert a revision in the readme, so I wonder why not in the filename or directory name? it would make things much easier
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>i'd blame planetmaker
06:57<andythenorth>yeah
06:57<andythenorth>he's a loser :)
06:57<andythenorth>just maintaining everyone's makefiles for them
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>well, it works with cets
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>cets-r822.zip
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07:05<@planetmaker>Alberth, simple: during development keeping the filenames is *much* more convenient
07:05<@planetmaker>the zip could well have version and should
07:06<@planetmaker>so iirc the release builds
07:06<@planetmaker>but not nightlies
07:06<@Alberth>why not nightlies?
07:06<@Alberth>hi btw :)
07:06<@planetmaker>for the reason: development. you'd have to re-add the grf everytime. as now you can simply type 'reload_newgrfs'
07:06<@planetmaker>hi also :)
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that applies to the grf name, but not to the bundle name
07:07<@planetmaker>so for developing the newgrf it's plain annoying to have the version in the filename or the tar
07:07<@Alberth>people push to devzone, wait for the compiler to build a nightly, and then download it, and reload the grf?
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: if you want to overwrite stuff, use the grf only
07:08<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that doesn't test ingame text files
07:08<@planetmaker>Alberth, well, I don't wait for devzone, I compile locally and reload newgrf.
07:09<@planetmaker>that's the same makefile call - a plain, plump and not-so-painful 'make'
07:09<@Alberth>so would I :)
07:09<@planetmaker>and target 'all' creates the tar
07:09<Xaroth|Work>btw Alberth, if you're working on nml .... :P
07:09<@planetmaker>so that you can also nicely test the readme, changelog ingame
07:09<@Alberth>so perhaps learn jenkins about a more painful "make me_a_numbered_nightly" ?
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>and exactly how often do you test the readme?
07:10<@planetmaker>sounds like a plan, Alberth
07:10<@planetmaker>not too difficult either
07:10<andythenorth>fwiw, the current setup offers me no problems :)
07:11<@Alberth>andythenorth: that's the argument of planetmaker too, which I fully agree on, development should be as easy as possible
07:12<@planetmaker>the parameter to make to include version in grf and tar is not much work. Shall be done :)
07:12<andythenorth>the only issue I have is sometimes I have an issue where I am uncertain which grf is being used
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>imho it should be only in the tar, not in the grf
07:12<@Alberth>Xaroth|Work: I would not call it working :) I am mostly clueless about what the code is doing :)
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still waiting that someone actually includes the actionC stuff i did
07:15<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, the problem I have with that actionC stuff is that it requires to put constraints on how NML can order code - or it will be unpredictably wrong at times
07:16<@Alberth>actionC does not make sense from nml perspective
07:17<@Alberth>it's like commenting the output of a c++ compiler :)
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: if you want to reorder code you must define "sequence points" of some sort, otherwise you get unpredictable behaviour
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: call it "debug symbols" or so
07:17<Eddi|zuHause> …–*
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>err
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>*don't drop the keyboard*
07:18<@Alberth>:)
07:18<Xaroth|Work>Alberth: bollocks, i had a strange request for it :P
07:19<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, the sorting of real sprites and action2/3 is not well defined, there's quite some freedom there. This freedom is severely limited by requiring actionC to be inserted between certain points
07:19<@planetmaker>the resulting grf nevertheless gives the same results
07:20<@Alberth>actionC is simply the wrong solution for the problem you're solving
07:20<@Alberth>so I won't add that feature
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yes, but the "real" solution is too complex to fit into my attention span :)
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07:23<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yet, for your purpose there does exist the 'eddi-nml' branch/fork and that's nicely available on the DevZone's CF as well
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07:23<@planetmaker>up to you to keep it updated :D
07:24<@Alberth>That doesn't make actionC the right solution. It will come back to bite us if we add it. See eg https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/6584 which also indicates that order of actions is not so stable as one might think
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07:25<@planetmaker>Alberth, there the actual NML code gives things in the wrong order already. The NML defines the grf block after the switches and spritesets. It rather indicates that NML parses and writes sequentially
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: exactly, if you make action8/grf-section a "sequence point" as in "actions may not be pushed beyond this", you can make actionC/comment the same
07:27<@planetmaker>the error reported there is more a limitation of the actual grf specs. And possibly a failure in NML docs to indicate that the grf block must be the first thing in your nml grf as well.
07:27<@planetmaker>(or alternatively taking precaution that the grf block's code is written first into the grf file)
07:27<@Alberth>I'd say nml should re-shuffle the declared blocks to make it work for grf
07:28<@planetmaker>I'd prefer that, too
07:28<@planetmaker>that's why I didn't close it ;)
07:30<@planetmaker>but let's add a comment in this sense :)
07:32<@Alberth>andythenorth: bulk terminal has no input -> output definition (x amount in = y amount out) ?
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's meant to work more like a primary industry
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07:40<@planetmaker>yup, it's a harbour which accepts and provides regardless, I think+
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07:49<andythenorth>it's not strictly primary, secondary or tertiary :)
07:49<andythenorth>needs a new definitions
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08:26<@Alberth>andythenorth: the only remaining things I could find are that the Sugar Refinery is difficult to see at the standard green minimap with heights, and the General Store and the Builders Yard are both white in a city on the map
08:26<@Alberth>not sure you want to change that; minimap colours are always difficult
08:27<@Alberth>oh, and Chips thinks copper ore is pink, while your cargo icon is green-gray-ish :)
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08:38<andythenorth>minimap colours are a pain in the arse :)
08:39<andythenorth>as are cargos :)
08:39<andythenorth>maybe I should change CHIPS :)
08:39<andythenorth>thanks for testing :)
08:40<V453000>dying
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08:46<@Alberth>have a beer
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09:37<@peter1138>I should know this
09:37<@peter1138>But why would a Windows install run really slow? :S
09:37<@peter1138>No malware on it.
09:37<__ln__>Maybe that's because.
09:37<@peter1138>Seems to be struggling with lots of disk IO.
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>hard disk not running in DMA mode?
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>no clue how one would check or fix that in windows
09:42<SpComb>install gentoo
09:43<juzza1>I once had a similar problem, fixed it by changing the HDD to IDE mode instead of AHCI in the bios
09:43<juzza1>it would install _very_ slowly or not at all
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26163 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt latvian.txt) (2013-12-17 18:45:13 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>czech - 4 changes by retro
13:45<@DorpsGek>latvian - 6 changes by Parastais
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14:28<Wolf01>evenink o/
14:31<@Alberth>hi hi
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15:01<andythenorth>bonsoir
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15:28<NGC3982>Poop.
15:31<__ln__>bonsoir
15:41<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r26164 trunk/src/script/api/script_industrytype.hpp (2013-12-17 20:41:51 UTC)
15:41<@DorpsGek>-Doc: Fix Game Script API docs on that deity can build/prospect independent of advanced setting for that
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16:12<DanMacK>Hey all
16:14<Taede>ola
16:18<@Alberth>hi hi
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17:00<Wolf01>'night all
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17:15<djura-san>\o
17:18<blathijs>Neighbour: Hacking on openttd? :-)
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17:49<andythenorth>bye
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17:53<djura-san>SO i wanted to give a little update on that "project" of mine. In a single city with ~500 citizens, no industries and no money boos, it is possible to grow a city. I had some problem tho: i wanted to make it very good looking so i built some roads. 100y later, roads and stations were costing me too much so i decided to allow city to build roads but not to touch my core of the town. IT seems that it worked ot but i have to yet se how much mone
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18:06<Eddi|zuHause>pro tip: build the roads as another company that you can let go bankrupt
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18:09<djura-san>Eddi|zuHause: could you please elaborate on that?
18:10<djura-san>Eddi|zuHause: i was not aware of the fact that i can found new company in game but now your comment makes sense. Actually, it makes sense a lot
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>you need to load your game as multiplayer (server)
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>then you can use the company windows to move between companies
18:12*djura-san is looking at "Multiplayer" dialogue
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18:13<Eddi|zuHause>should be "start server" and "load game" or something like that
18:14<djura-san>Eddi|zuHause: i never really lookied into it. Seems very good but my town is developed already. Any new tips to share? :)
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18:14<Eddi|zuHause>use a city builder game script next time ;)
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18:20<frosch123>night
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18:21<djura-san>Eddi|zuHause: i will have to search for that.
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18:36<Eddi|zuHause>if you find one, please tell us, because to my knowledge those people are very protective of their precious scripts
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18:37<Eddi|zuHause>"Das kann doch nicht Wahrstein. Da könnt ja Jever kommen."
18:39<LordAro>so, i have a bouncer now
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>so he doesn't let you in if you wear bad clothes?
18:40<LordAro>something like that :3
18:40<Supercheese>You have Tigger?
18:41<Supercheese>After all, bouncing is what he does best
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what that means
18:41<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause, this guy: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=tigger
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>i only know a tigerduck, but that's probably not what's meant :p
18:42<Supercheese>Ah, you must not be familiar with Winnie the Pooh, the A.A. Milne children's story
18:42<Supercheese>and the Disney adaptations thereof
18:43<Supercheese>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigger
18:43<LordAro>that link will work also :)
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>i have heard of winnie pooh, but never actually seen it
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, this is a tigerduck :) http://www.viva-la-liga.de/allgemein/to-forget-ones-purpose-is-the-commonest-form-of-stupidity/attachment/bilder-tigerente/
18:44<LordAro>well, tigger is a character in it
18:44<Supercheese>it is probably more of a Disney, and thus American, thing
18:44<LordAro>he bounces a lot
18:44<LordAro>American? how dare you sir
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>it's not like i have never seen a disney thing before :p
18:44<Supercheese>although I suspect Disney has translated it into zillions of languages
18:44<Supercheese>they tend to do that
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>but opposing to most other disney things, this one seems to be aimed at a very young (pre-school) audience
18:45<LordAro>oh it is
18:46<LordAro>well, small children anyway
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>so at the time where it would have been available to me, i was already too old to care
18:46<Supercheese>it was very popular when I was a lad
18:47<Supercheese>early 1990s, a golden era for Disney cartoons
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---Logclosed Wed Dec 18 00:00:38 2013