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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-12-18

---Logopened Wed Dec 18 00:00:38 2013
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02:42<juzza1>ok, maybe someone who can understand this better can help: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial/Train_recolour the 2cc recoloring part
02:42<juzza1>here are the sprites used for that http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/examples/train/icm.png
02:43<juzza1>the sprite already has 1cc and 2cc colours, so why do you need "1: return base_sprite_2cc + CB_RESULT_COLOUR_MAPPING_ADD_CC;" recolour mapping for it? was there a time in NML development when 1cc and 2cc werent recolored automatically?
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04:52<andythenorth>hmm
04:52<andythenorth>hotels are unexpectedly closing in FIRS
04:52<andythenorth>can't see why
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04:56<@Alberth>magic
04:58<andythenorth>it will be the monthly prod cb running somewhere
04:58<andythenorth>but the code for hotel is non-standard P
04:58<andythenorth>:P
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05:19*andythenorth opens 13.5MB of FIRS nml :P
05:20<andythenorth>hmm
05:20<andythenorth>the nml doesn't show any handling of production cb
05:21<andythenorth>maybe I can just set the 'no close' flag
05:21<andythenorth>this isn't how I recalled it working though :P
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07:06<Eddi|zuHause>[18.12.2013 08:43] <juzza1> the sprite already has 1cc and 2cc colours, so why do you need "1: return base_sprite_2cc + CB_RESULT_COLOUR_MAPPING_ADD_CC;" recolour mapping for it? was there a time in NML development when 1cc and 2cc werent recolored automatically? <-- it's a flag, if you leave it out, the colour(s) will stay unmodified
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07:13<juzza1>yes, I didn't realize they both do basically the same thing (setting the flag vs. the tutorial way)
07:20<@planetmaker>the tutorial only implements it to have one place to define the colour translation. It's actually a very neat way
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07:56<@planetmaker>andythenorth, FIRS bulk terminal has an unreferenced spritelayout: nmlc warning: "generated_pnml/bulk_terminal.pnml", line 9530: Block 'bulk_terminal_spritelayout_28' is not referenced, ignoring.
07:56<andythenorth>I'll remove it
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08:05*andythenorth watches another 6 min compile :)
08:05<andythenorth>I need my mac back :(
08:06<andythenorth>is *any* of nml multi-threaded? I keep seeing it saturate more than one core, allegedly
08:06<andythenorth>which doesn't fit with my mental model of it - single threaded python
08:07<Xaroth|Work>andythenorth: compiles here don't take that long :o
08:07<@planetmaker>what computer do you work on that it takes 6 minutes for you? (Full compile or just update compile)?
08:07<andythenorth>this is full FIRS compile
08:07<andythenorth>some old mac I found in the office
08:07<andythenorth>crappy spec
08:09<@planetmaker>1m34.230s on my office PC
08:09<@planetmaker>cheap ~1 year old machine
08:09<andythenorth>:(
08:09<andythenorth>sad times for andythenorth
08:09<@planetmaker>what happend to your other one?
08:10<@planetmaker>did it walk out on you, citing slavery rules or so? :D
08:10<andythenorth>chewed up its SATA cable again
08:10<andythenorth>4th time that's happened on macs I own
08:10<andythenorth>or it has a defective motherboard
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08:11<@planetmaker>woot? that's crappy indeed
08:11<andythenorth>repetetitve issue on 13" macbooks it seems
08:11<andythenorth>especially if you swap out the drive yourself for an SSD and aren't ultra careful :P
08:13<@planetmaker>he
08:13<V453000>cause it looks like they do
08:13<V453000>could trains changing stats based on current_railtype cause desyncs? :D
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08:15<Xaroth|Work>andythenorth: 2m30s here on this vps
08:15<Xaroth|Work>but that can be tweaked
08:15<Xaroth|Work>(make clean && make )
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08:21<andythenorth>planetmaker: fixed that layout :)
08:22<@planetmaker>:)
08:22<andythenorth>hmm
08:22<andythenorth>puzzling
08:23<andythenorth>I wonder if other FIRS town industries have unwanted closures
08:23<andythenorth>I can't see anything to prevent them
08:23<andythenorth>ah
08:23<andythenorth>the rest are black holes, only the hotel has production
08:23<andythenorth>and if it has production, maybe the production callback comes by and closes it
08:25<V453000>dying
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08:25<Xaroth|Work>right
08:25<Xaroth|Work>switching preprocess to pypy shaves off another 40s
08:25<Xaroth|Work><2m now
08:26<Xaroth|Work>heh, got an error though
08:26<Xaroth|Work>nmlc ERROR: "generated_pnml/arable_farm.pnml", line 1561: Cargo list must be an array with no more than 2 values .. but that might be to do with preprocessor running under pypy
08:28<andythenorth>preprocessing is only 6s for me anyway, once caches are primed
08:28<Xaroth|Work>yeh, i'm doing a make clean beforehand though
08:28<andythenorth>yeah
08:28<Xaroth|Work>to force it full
08:28<andythenorth>sounds like a string processing issue
08:28<andythenorth>https://bitbucket.org/pypy/compatibility/wiki/chameleon
08:29<andythenorth>there's the answer :)
08:29<Xaroth|Work>that explains
08:29<Xaroth|Work>sucky chameleon :P
08:32<Xaroth|Work>http://i.imgur.com/BG4NZ.jpg
08:33<Xaroth|Work>1m10s without a make clean, using pypy
08:33<Xaroth|Work>vs 2m44 with make clean
08:33<andythenorth>'zippier'
08:34*andythenorth wonders if BLACK_HOLE will produce
08:37<Xaroth|Work>running without pypy, without make clean
08:37<Xaroth|Work>2m57
08:38<andythenorth>hmm spec is silent
08:38<andythenorth>reading ottd code is faster than this compile :)
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08:56<andythenorth>hmm
08:57<andythenorth>just saw a black hole industry reset production multiplier (set by cheat)
08:57<andythenorth>let's not think about that too much :P
08:57<andythenorth>can't reproduce it
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09:11<@planetmaker>V453000, something like that is the case... we should ask frosch later :)
09:12<V453000>I was already checking if he is present :)
09:12<V453000>but yeah :d
09:12<V453000>either way, I believe public server is not getting desyncs or I have not seen any
09:13<V453000>and it uses hundreds of the trains in question
09:13<V453000>idk the differences between that revsision and 1.3.3 but hm
09:13<@planetmaker>the issue is not that generally as you asked it. Some stats shall not change iirc :)
09:13<@planetmaker>maybe also that
09:14<@planetmaker>but I can't recall any change to that end
09:14<V453000>idk, its just power/speed/tractive effort coefficient
09:14<V453000>and the weirdest part is, stable desynced while the trains didnt change anything
09:14<V453000>they ran on the same railtype all the time
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09:56<andythenorth>herp
09:56<andythenorth>no Farm Supplies in FIRS basic economies before 1927 :(
09:56<andythenorth>oopsie
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10:18<andythenorth>maybe FIRS 1.3.0 is done :o
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10:25<@Alberth>nice!
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10:26<andythenorth>ok, so the FIRS translations are now becoming too much to add to the changelog
10:26<andythenorth>what with credits and such
10:26<andythenorth>can I stop? :P
10:27<@planetmaker>credits are in the commit log
10:32<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2907/
10:32<@planetmaker>^ since 1.2.0
10:32<@planetmaker>plus any manual translation additions. There are a few, too
10:34<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2908/
10:34<@planetmaker>^ andythenorth
10:34<andythenorth>I can see them :)
10:34<andythenorth>I usually manually copy and paste
10:35<andythenorth>then alphabetise
10:35<andythenorth>and consolidate
10:35<andythenorth>that first paste is handy though
10:35<andythenorth>I have to look up the language codes
10:35<@planetmaker>it's the output from hg log --template='{desc|tabindent}\n' -r1.2.0:tip | grep 'changes by'
10:36<@planetmaker>the 2nd the result of hg log --template='{node}: {desc|tabindent}\n' -r1.2.0:tip | grep 'translation'
10:39<andythenorth>where are lang codes? o_O
10:39<andythenorth>newgrf wiki maybe?
10:39<andythenorth>hmm they're numeric
10:40<andythenorth>this can wait :)
10:40<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2909/
10:40<andythenorth>thannks
10:40<andythenorth>can we make eints do this? :P
10:40<andythenorth>I am doing menial copy-paste
10:40<andythenorth>which is appropriate to my skill level :P
10:40<andythenorth>but boring
10:41<@Alberth>eints doesn't keep track of history
10:41<andythenorth>oh well
10:41<@planetmaker>I think the question was to have languages in commit messages other than lang codes?
10:41<@planetmaker>or do I err?
10:41<andythenorth>that would be useful
10:42<@Alberth>a script to dig through the change sets would be a good solution imho
10:42<andythenorth>codes aren't always obvious
10:42<@planetmaker>well... they are if you looked at them a few times. I dare say I know 90% of those by heart if not more :)
10:42<andythenorth>you're volunteering to update the FIRS changelog? o_O
10:43<@planetmaker>but... I dealt too much with language files to pass as average newgrf author in that respect :P
10:43<@Alberth>:D
10:43<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I dare say you combine those two pastes of mine and remove duplicates and that's it?
10:44<andythenorth>I always consolidate the lines
10:44<andythenorth>so there's only one line per lang, with credits
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10:44<andythenorth>need to call set() on them :)
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10:45<@planetmaker>pl -> Polish, sv -> Swedish, hr -> Croatian, ko -> Korean, pt -> Portuguese, fi -> Finnish, nb -> Norwegian (bokmal), zh_TW -> traditional Chinese zh_CN ->simplified Chinese, es -> Spanish
10:48<andythenorth>doing it now
10:49<@planetmaker>I possibly could adopt my 'make_changelog' script to sort-out languages automatically
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10:53<andythenorth>1.3.0 now done as RC, but going to sit on it until Christmas Eve or so
10:53<andythenorth>needs testing :)
10:54<@planetmaker>:)
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11:02<@Alberth>wb
11:05<andythenorth>mac issues :)
11:10<andythenorth>so....do any of you actually use RVs? o_O
11:11<@planetmaker>yes. For local traffic (~20 tiles or so) I do use RV. Or if space for stations comes at a premium
11:11<@planetmaker>I don't use them for (much) longer distances
11:12<@planetmaker>no vehicle type can live with less space on the map than RV
11:13<andythenorth>so why no use on long hauls? Other than it's visually very noisy :P
11:13<andythenorth>too slow?
11:14<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/Henwell Transport, 1963-06-21.png
11:14<@planetmaker>too much maintenance and management really. And congestion. One train has easily the capacity of a dozen vehicles
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11:15<@Alberth>accepting industries are just outside the picture
11:15<@planetmaker>speed is somewhat an issue, too - but ... using RV accross the map usually doesn't feel right. It's a train game, right?
11:15<alluke>i like to build freeways and send rvs across the map
11:15<@Alberth>whatever makes most money :p
11:15<Taede>untill someone makes a gs that limits traincount
11:16<Pinkbeast>Getting RVs to use bays at a busy station sensibly can be tricky
11:17<Xaroth|Work>tricky being the understatement here
11:18<@planetmaker>Taede, why GS? It's a plain and plump general setting
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11:18<@planetmaker>max_trains = 10 :P
11:19<Xaroth|Work>max_trains = 1 , and make it a map with huge distances between locations
11:19<Xaroth|Work>also, max_planes = 0
11:19<Xaroth|Work>gl&hf.
11:19<Xaroth|Work>mammoth train++
11:19<Taede>yes, but player can change that in sp
11:20<Xaroth|Work>if they want to cheat, that's their flaw :P
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>"max_trains=1" reminds me of the history lesson where my teacher said "after WWI, germany was limited to 6 warships. so they wouldn't forget how a warship looked like"
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11:20<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: idea for next ottdc game? :P
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth|Work: might be fun with autorefit
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>enable the option to have always 100% station rating, and send one giant train in circles
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>and use some RV feeders
11:23<andythenorth>I have tried the giant train mechanic
11:23<andythenorth>it doesn't work with cdist
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12:34<alluke>i just found out that they actually do sing 'back in black' in back in black
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12:39<Eddi|zuHause>who what where?
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>as long as they don't sing "backstreet's back"
12:40<Xaroth|Work>alluke: AC/DC ?
12:40<alluke>yeah
12:40<alluke>and i do have that 'backstreet's back' in my library too :P
12:41<Xaroth|Work>:|
12:41<Xaroth|Work>why ruin AC/DC with backstreet girls?
12:42<alluke>separate songs
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12:43<LordAro>quak
12:43<frosch123>hola
12:47<alluke>has the development of roadtypes even started
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>dozens of years ago
12:48<alluke>is there a topic
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>we even had bits for a "highway" roadtype reserved once
12:48<frosch123>in 1994 there was one roadtype, in 2007 there were two, you can extrapolate for more
12:49<alluke>i was thinking about normal, dirt, and isr roads
12:51<@planetmaker>not to forget cobblestone, highway, federal road, local road, tank track, logging track, cross-country race track
12:51<alluke>wouldnt the code be just copypaste from railtypes with some mods
12:52<alluke>sounds good
12:52<@peter1138>Yeah, you go ahead and try that...
12:52<@planetmaker>:)
12:52<@planetmaker>a clear 'yes, but'
12:52<alluke>i dont know how ottd is coded, just thought if thats possible :P
12:52<@planetmaker>(mind the bear traps in the path)
12:52<andythenorth>the development of roadtypes has started at least twice
12:53<andythenorth>it's a turkey
12:54<alluke>how long did railtypes take from idea to trunk
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12:59<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: you mean from the first guy thinking "there should be electrified rails", over TTDPatch's implementation of elrail, then coming OpenTTD's implementation of elrail, and then adding fully flexible NewGRF railtypes, to the still-planned additional features (like two parallel tracks on the same tile with different railtypes)=
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>?
12:59<andythenorth>peter1138: never been tempted to try roadtypes again? o_O
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: makes almost 20 years of development now
13:00<alluke>20 years?
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13:00<alluke>is ottd even that old
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13:12<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: no, but development didn't start with creating openttd...
13:12<alluke>ok
13:23<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26165 trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp (2013-12-18 18:23:30 UTC)
13:23<@DorpsGek>-Change [FS#5832]: Improve layout of build-airport GUI (hackalittlebit)
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14:23<Wolf01>hello
14:29<@peter1138>andythenorth, no
14:30<andythenorth>oh you'd love it
14:31<andythenorth>nothing says 'christmas' like RoadTypes rts = GetRoadTypes(tile);
14:32<@peter1138>Pretty sure that features in the last patch...
14:32<andythenorth>probly :)
14:33*andythenorth wonders about an ugly attempt to use just a third roadtype
14:33<andythenorth>hard-coded, for personal use :P
14:33<andythenorth>but what would it be? o_O
14:33<@peter1138>You're ugly.
14:33<andythenorth>there's only one answer to that
14:33<andythenorth>but I don't like to mention your mum
14:35<andythenorth>if you could only pick one extra roadtype, what would it be?
14:35<andythenorth>highway is stupid, we already have that
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14:38<andythenorth>oh dear
14:39*andythenorth counts bits
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14:58<andythenorth>eh http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2910/
14:58<andythenorth>ah this is a better view http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/2910/
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15:09<Executioner>hi
15:10<Executioner>I've got a single question: Is there any way to cross a rail owned by other company in multiplayer?
15:11<andythenorth>bridge
15:11<andythenorth>tunnel
15:11<Executioner>I mean actually crossing, not going over or under it, like multiple companies using the same railway
15:12<andythenorth>not in default game
15:12<Executioner>Ah well, thanks
15:12<Executioner>goodbye
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15:21<andythenorth>no-one bites on my paste? :)
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15:39<Zuu>andythenorth: That is also a possible approach.
15:39<Zuu>Question: Will rails use 4 bits to allow placing on single road bits?
15:40<Zuu>but not catenary?
15:40<andythenorth>I figured rails work as tram rails do now
15:40<andythenorth>so no extra bits
15:41<andythenorth>catenary - I don't know if we have the bits
15:41<andythenorth>and building catenary piece by piece would be very boring
15:41<andythenorth>and easy to make mistakes
15:41<andythenorth>so electrify the whole tile, or not
15:41<andythenorth>already it's easy to make mistakes with tram tracks
15:42<andythenorth>also it's not good when I try to specify implementation :)
15:42<Zuu>IIRC newgref checking adjacent tile for graphic selection is a no-no?
15:43<Zuu>Though maybe there can be a cache?
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15:45<DanMacK>hey all
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: it works well for rail tiles
15:51<Zuu>If road tiles can check adjacent tiles for graphic selection at acceptable performance, then a single bit for cantenary could be used and simply leave it up to NewGRFs to use adjacent surface/rail bits decide if dead end catenary should be shown or not.
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: but that may cause weird effects
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>like imagine a trolleybus road next to a tram line, then every branching road will have catenary stumps connecting the two lines
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: i'd rather define it "if both road and tram have catenary flag, the tram catenary is drawn"
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>that means there's no bit in the tile for catenary
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>only in the roadtype spec
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16:00<andythenorth>that presumes players constructing by first choosing a type?
16:00*andythenorth has an alternative proposal
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>please keep quiet about it
16:07<andythenorth>what, in case anybody gets distracted and stops implementing the non-implementable roadtypes spec? o_O
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>also consider a "subway" railtype that has reduced tunnel costs, 3rd rail, and cannot be placed along roads
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe a road catenary must provide alternate sprites if tram catenary is present
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>so the trolley bus catenary will have a different offset
16:14<andythenorth>I'd just ask 'why?'
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>because people will build it
16:14<andythenorth>everest :P
16:15<andythenorth>ok, so to support the idea that we must let people build it, we stick to talking hot air about a spec for a feature no-one wants to do, that can't be done?
16:15<andythenorth>to keep the spec pure? :)
16:15<andythenorth>and we can't identify any gameplay benefits for?
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>maybe like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA
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16:31<andythenorth>that was 10 entertaining minutes
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16:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's a good example for "design by committee"
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16:46*andythenorth returns from Wikipedia
16:53<Xaroth|Work>that was quick
17:04<andythenorth>hrrm
17:04<andythenorth>frosch123: how long did it take you to write SV?
17:04<frosch123>a weekend likely
17:04<andythenorth>hmm
17:04<andythenorth>so let's assume you are 5x or 6x better programmer than me
17:05<frosch123>i finished it, so it cannot have taken longer
17:05<andythenorth>so I would need 10 days to do something similar
17:05<andythenorth>I am putting out new FIRS for christmas
17:05<andythenorth>with an economy based on delivering as much as possible to ports
17:05<andythenorth>considering a simple GS to go with it
17:07<andythenorth>some simple cargo goal thing
17:08<Wolf01>'night
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17:11<Zuu>andythenorth: Did you see the "Real growth for FIRS" GS? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=69189
17:11<andythenorth>ho ho I forgot about that
17:11<andythenorth>:)
17:12<Zuu>It's yet another city growth GS, but special in the sense that it is made with FIRS in mind.
17:12<andythenorth>looks interesting
17:12<andythenorth>my idea is something like NoCarGoal, but tailored for specific FIRS economy
17:13<andythenorth>rather than random, which leads to me doing a lot of 'newgame' :P
17:13*andythenorth wonders about creating something like the original TTD scoring
17:14<andythenorth>10 or so rating items, with 0-10 rating on each
17:14<andythenorth>achieve 80% or more overall for gold
17:14<andythenorth>I have no idea how to handle things like different map sizes, industry density, all that crap though :)
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17:14<Zuu>At some point I see that GS could hook into the scoring system in OpenTTD. However, that is mostly just visuals. You can already display a ranking table in the story book.
17:15<andythenorth>o_O
17:15<andythenorth>neat
17:15<andythenorth>that would be plenty enough
17:15<Zuu>That ranking table is not exactly a table. More some lines of text.
17:15<andythenorth>this is things like: each year deliver 10,000t of Coffee
17:15<andythenorth>have a total company value of £100000
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17:15<Zuu>I hope I didn't gave the impression of it being a perfect grid.
17:15<andythenorth>I don't care :)
17:15<andythenorth>10 lines of text would do
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17:16<Zuu>10 lines of text are available (or more if you wish)
17:16<andythenorth>transfer at least 3000 crates of engineering supplies to the interior
17:16<andythenorth>transport 25000 workers
17:16<andythenorth>etc
17:17<andythenorth>I figure, play a game, figure out how to get all 10, you've had enough. Try a new FIRS economy, with a new GS
17:17<andythenorth>as usual, /me has enough projects though :P
17:22<Zuu>hehe
17:23<Zuu>I also do not have the problem of having to few projects :-)
17:23<frosch123>night
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17:29<andythenorth>time for bed
17:29<andythenorth>zebedee
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