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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-12-23

---Logopened Mon Dec 23 00:00:46 2013
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02:25<andythenorth>o/
02:28<NGC3982>Morning Morning
02:28<NGC3982>moronimong .
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03:04<andythenorth>retina screen breaks my screenshots :P
03:04<andythenorth>how silly
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04:07<@planetmaker>moin
04:14<andythenorth>hi planetmaker
04:32<LordAro>moin
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07:08<andythenorth>hurgh
07:08*andythenorth hungry
07:08<Xaroth|Work>make me some as well will ya?
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>sudo make me a sandwich
07:13*andythenorth gets a PyPy buildout
07:13<Xaroth|Work>related xkcd: http://xkcd.com/149/
07:13<andythenorth>see if I can test this firs compile
07:14<andythenorth>meh, buildout failed
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07:16<andythenorth>stuff happening now
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>i'll never understand the fascination about "buildouts"
07:16<andythenorth>you don't have the use case
07:17<andythenorth>tens of thousands of people working on python web frameworks do ;)
07:17<Xaroth|Work>i never use buildout :|
07:17*Xaroth|Work works on python web frameworks
07:17<andythenorth>you probably do django?
07:17<Xaroth|Work>yep
07:18<Xaroth|Work>then again, I build stuff for customers
07:18<Xaroth|Work>so they are kinda stuck on how it's installed
07:18<Xaroth|Work>since that's part of the contract
07:18<Xaroth|Work>we build it, we install it, that way they can't fuck it up
07:19<Xaroth|Work>but that also goes for other things we make
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07:20<andythenorth>how do devs on your team get a project environment?
07:20<andythenorth>have you packaged it up somehow? Vagrant or something?
07:20<Xaroth|Work>we have sandbox systems, and we specify a setup.py with requirements.txt for virtualenvs
07:20<andythenorth>setuptools? o_O :P
07:21<Xaroth|Work>and yes, vagrant/buildout can probably work smooth, but most of the people are used to this
07:21<Xaroth|Work>and they know how to fix things if it breaks (read: if they break it)
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07:25<andythenorth>unlike /me
07:25<andythenorth>who now has broken python everywhere
07:26<Xaroth|Work>heh
07:28<andythenorth>this is why we have backups :P
07:30<Rubidium>backups? What are those?
07:30<LordAro>http://www.ted.com/talks/rob_reid_the_8_billion_ipod.html
07:31*Rubidium works at a company that supposedly makes backups, but never does a recovery test
07:31<Rubidium>so much fun to find out that the database backup doesn't end up in the backup because it was filtered out
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07:35<LordAro>D:
07:38*Rubidium wonders whether to blame the backup tool of SQL server though... for respectively not backing up .bak or for making backups to .bak
07:38<Rubidium>s/of/or/
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08:01<Xaroth|Work>http://i.imgur.com/n4Vcvg0.jpg
08:05<LordAro>nom
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08:08<Xaroth|Work>http://xkcd.com/1306/ :)
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08:17<ZxBiohazardZx>anyone good with reversers/pathfinding? i cant see why my train is making a turn to a red signal instead of going into a reverser
08:17<Xaroth|Work>ZxBiohazardZx: upload a few images to imgur, that might help
08:18<ZxBiohazardZx>http://imgur.com/VC3QgQp
08:18<ZxBiohazardZx>i expect trains to go to Q5, but instead they go for C
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08:19<Xaroth|Work>ZxBiohazardZx: I don't see a route from Q5 to the station
08:19<Wolf01>hi o/
08:20<ZxBiohazardZx>it is a reverser, it should route to the depot / via depot to the entrance again (its a loop)
08:21<ZxBiohazardZx>and loop has a direct run back into the station entrance, hence imo it should work :P
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08:39<Taede>what is yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol set to ZxBiohazardZx ?
08:44<ZxBiohazardZx>"off"
08:44<ZxBiohazardZx>you can have a look, 1.3.3 -> biohazards realm
08:45<ZxBiohazardZx>station @ Dadingworth is causing the random stuff, i got them to overflow after changing the reverser to a loop
08:45<ZxBiohazardZx>but now they wont go into the depot, and instead block depot exit
08:45<ZxBiohazardZx>:(
08:45<andythenorth>no frosch o_O
08:45<Taede>yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol is usually set to 1 on coop-servers, to make overflows like that work
08:46<ZxBiohazardZx>ill try setting it
08:47<ZxBiohazardZx>thx that worked :)
08:47<Taede>:)
08:47-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d010c7c.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
08:51<frosch123>hi kids!
08:52<ZxBiohazardZx>heya Frosch!
08:52<ZxBiohazardZx>:)
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08:53<ZxBiohazardZx>thx again Taede :)
08:53<andythenorth>he always comes when I mention his name
08:53<Taede>nps
08:53<andythenorth>spooky
08:54<frosch123>boo!
08:57<andythenorth>frosch123: any reason against modifying cb 10 so effect vehicle xyz pos is returned in register 0x100?
08:57<andythenorth>other than "it's work"
08:58<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/New_Smoke <- does it integrate with that one?
08:58*andythenorth reads
08:59<andythenorth>"since this is performance critical NewGRFs cannot define their own models." \o/
09:00<@peter1138>:D
09:00<andythenorth>imagine
09:01<andythenorth>we could have SmokeTypes
09:01<andythenorth>and SmokeTypeLabels
09:01<@peter1138>SmokeTypeTranslationTables
09:01<andythenorth>it might be worth putting into the forums 'to develop a spec for the future'
09:01<andythenorth>maybe on April 1
09:01<@peter1138>Let's drop everything and make it with 3D models.
09:01<frosch123>don't forget extra zoom
09:01<frosch123>a proper smoke spec needs to be retina compatible
09:02<frosch123>so, say 1kx1k smoke sprites
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09:02<andythenorth>frosch123: as it happens OpenTTD is very very retina compatible
09:02<andythenorth>I have proven
09:02<andythenorth>unlike most of the internets
09:03<frosch123>yeah, i have used my retina for years to watch it
09:03<andythenorth>:P
09:03<andythenorth>ok so comments
09:03<andythenorth>- is it just nicer to repeat the cb until 'no more effects' is returned?
09:03<andythenorth>similar to articulated parts
09:04<@Belugas>hello
09:05<andythenorth>ho it's Belugas
09:05<andythenorth>:)
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>suggestion: black steam engine smoke when accelerating heavily at low speed, white smoke when "idling" at top speed
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>with greyscales inbetween
09:05<@Belugas>andythenorth :)
09:05<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: now you want a custom palette transform? :P
09:06<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that case is covered
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: how?
09:07<andythenorth>frosch123: my only other comment is that I zoned out around "Custom effects"
09:07<andythenorth>seems to have a lot of TODO and unresolved. TMWFTLB?
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>hm, my NTFS external drive tends to get cluttered by .fuse_hidden files
09:09<frosch123>andythenorth: eddi wants to use it, he just said :p
09:10<andythenorth>well extend the spec later :D
09:10<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause needs some sprites first
09:10<andythenorth>:P
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>i have loads of sprites
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>i finally got around to involving pixa
09:10<andythenorth>:)
09:11<andythenorth>oh god, now I have a user :P
09:11<andythenorth>I am obliged to do support
09:11<frosch123>andythenorth: i do not much like the "iterative calls of cb"
09:11<andythenorth>ok
09:11<frosch123>they do the same 99% of the time
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: can pixa output 32bpp?
09:11<andythenorth>umm
09:11<andythenorth>dunno
09:12<frosch123>if you have multiple smoke sprites, they are more arranged like a industry layout
09:12<andythenorth>probably, just teach it a different palette?
09:12<frosch123>rather than independent things
09:12<andythenorth>pixa doesn't make (many) assumptions, it's just a processor
09:12<andythenorth>hey look CETS steamers :) https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/gfx/DRG/99.73_5_DRG.png
09:13<andythenorth>frosch123: ok, I am easily convinced
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>that one is not pixa-generated :p
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09:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the autogenerated files are not in the repository
09:16<andythenorth>make sense
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>they look like "template<4,default>(0..2:box<6>(0..4:grey-4,5:grey-3),3:box<8>(0..6:grey-4,7:grey-3))"
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09:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: wich then looks like this: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/V_4_default_8bpp_normal.pixa.png
09:20<andythenorth>frosch123: so with this spec, I could trigger existing diesel smoke sprites, using the steam spawning model? o_O
09:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: pretty neat
09:22<frosch123>andythenorth: yes
09:23<andythenorth>yay
09:23<andythenorth>avoids patching vehicle.cpp
09:23<andythenorth>:P
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09:28<andythenorth>(existing diesel smoke generation model is daft for ships)
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10:00<andythenorth>frosch123: is smoke something you're interested in working on? It's a nice feature, and I have some time right now to help :) If not, it will keep :)
10:01<frosch123>well, it's something on the list to code when some grf author is interested in using :p
10:01<frosch123>but maybe not exactly today :p
10:02<frosch123>you know, not all releases are done for this year
10:04<andythenorth>he he
10:07<andythenorth>I will go make some trains or something in that case
10:11<andythenorth>unless anyone wants to collaborate on a GS? o_O
10:11<andythenorth>just a simple one...?
10:19<andythenorth>hmm GS looks like 'proper' programming
10:20<andythenorth>there's actually some kind of loop running or something
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10:23<frosch123>use zuu's "minimal gs" as starting point :)
10:23<frosch123>it's a sticky in the script dev forum
10:24<andythenorth>I was reading SV :)
10:24<andythenorth>might as well dive straight in
10:24<andythenorth>I'm not good with 'build it up in small pieces'
10:24<frosch123>that is based on the minimal gs as well :p
10:24<andythenorth>better to get something existing, and try 'wtf?' on it
10:27<andythenorth>code looks ok, need someone to kick at my ideas though
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10:34<andythenorth>so why do so many of us turn off the stuff that screws with you - breakdowns, disasters, fluctuating economy...?
10:36<andythenorth>o_O
10:36<frosch123>disasters and recessions are nothing you can influence
10:36<frosch123>you cannot play differently to avoid them
10:36<frosch123>some think that breakdowns are also something that you cannot influence
10:36<frosch123>but that is actually a lie
10:36<frosch123>as such i play with breakdowns in singleplayer
10:37<andythenorth>I would play breakdowns if I could make servicing work :)
10:37<andythenorth>but I have EAndythenorth in that respect :)
10:37<frosch123>it enriches the engine selection and your network needs to be somewhat redjundant to it
10:37<frosch123>automatic servicing is broken :p
10:37<frosch123>always use manual servicing
10:38<andythenorth>oh so it's a known issue now? o_O
10:38<andythenorth>I thought it was just me :)
10:38<frosch123>either orders, or forced visits via track layout
10:38<andythenorth>is there some pathfinder problem?
10:38<frosch123>automatic servicing can work for inner-town bus networks
10:38<frosch123>but not for serious transport
10:38<andythenorth>RVs have been broken for years, but trains used to work with PBS signal in front of deport
10:38<andythenorth>depot *
10:38<andythenorth>that now seems to be ignored
10:39<frosch123>http://wiki.openttd.org/File:Forced_servicing.png <- with forced visit without orders i mean stuff like that
10:40<frosch123>though if you are particulary lazy (like i am sometimes), you can put it right at the loading stations
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10:40<frosch123>make all ariving trains run into the depot before loading
10:40<frosch123>that way the depot also deals as buffer when the production fluctuates and removes unneeeded trains from the network
10:41<frosch123>for that don't put any signals between depot and platofrm, so trains only leave the depot, if a platform is empty
10:41<frosch123>and well, set service interval to maximum :p
10:42<andythenorth>yeah that screenie describes forced servicing :) Pretty brutally :)
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10:43<andythenorth>so anyway, my aim is to make a nice GS for single player
10:43<andythenorth>we have some good ones for MP
10:43<andythenorth>and I want it to occasionally screw with you :)
10:45<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/combinedserviceandbufferdepot.png <- that's kind of my standard lazy-pbs layout
10:45<frosch123>if i do not want to build anything particular fancy
10:46<frosch123>but well, it also works with exit-presignals at the station, instead of pbs
10:46<andythenorth>why is that tram clipping? :P
10:46<frosch123>where?
10:46<frosch123>oh there
10:48<frosch123>it is on foundations
10:48<frosch123>and the length of the last vehicle part is incorrect
10:48<frosch123>side effect of the length rrefit i guess
10:49<frosch123>the foundation is sorted in front of the vehicle bb, since the vehicle bb is on the tile in front
11:01<andythenorth>so what are nice goals for single player?
11:01<andythenorth>- cargo amounts
11:01<andythenorth>- town growth?
11:01<andythenorth>- money?
11:02<frosch123>transfers
11:02<andythenorth>are they trackable?
11:02<frosch123>non-point-to-point connections
11:03<frosch123>no idea
11:03<andythenorth>"Quackpool wants a cut of the lucrative cargo transfer business. Transfer 10,000t per year at Quackpool for a reward of [xyz]"
11:04<frosch123>that's weird :p
11:04<andythenorth>weird bad?
11:04<frosch123>well, transporting cargo somehwere, just to transport it back :p
11:05<andythenorth>oic :)
11:05<frosch123>it would be cool if you could count the amount of cargo that is transfered between rv, trains and ships
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11:05<andythenorth>that's what I intended ^
11:05<andythenorth>dunno how to enforce it though
11:06<frosch123>score = "cargo transported on one vehicle type" + 4 * "cargo transported by two vehicle types" + 9 * "cargo transported by 3 vehicle types" + 16 * "cargo transported by 4 vehicle types" ...
11:06<andythenorth>"The Governor of Quackpool is tired of your noisy trains. You may only use river boats from now on. You may keep your existing railways."
11:07<andythenorth>ok so for what you describe, something like "intermodal bonus: use 4 transport types"
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11:07<frosch123>nah: as a measurement against terrorirsm the government has the intention to obfuscate cargo flows
11:07<andythenorth>it's more less narrative, more like the rewards in the casual games I've been playing
11:07<frosch123>help them to make it hard to track where cargos comes from and goes to
11:09<andythenorth>dunno if GS can do this?
11:09<andythenorth>would need to track packets somehow?
11:10<frosch123>you can read orders and vehicle loads
11:10<frosch123>well, you will likely only get some approximation
11:10<frosch123>not the exact thing :p
11:10<andythenorth>- average speed per passenger mile between two towns?
11:11<andythenorth>sounds tedious, but would be a nice micro-challenge
11:14<andythenorth>I am thinking stuff more like 'deliver at least 2000t / month to five different ports' or such
11:14<andythenorth>GS only knows about industries via accepted / produced cargos?
11:14<andythenorth>can't go by ID?
11:17<frosch123>yup, no name or anything
11:17<frosch123>only cargo lavels
11:18<frosch123>and primary/secondary, fundable/prospectable
11:18<andythenorth>I could generate a lookup table from FIRS code :P
11:19<frosch123>you can also track the shape of the industry then :p
11:19<andythenorth>oh, so I could go measure individual tiles? :P
11:20<andythenorth>ho ho
11:20<andythenorth>how quaint :)
11:20<frosch123>and very specific to a firs version :)
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11:21<andythenorth>so is there such a thing as a single-sided subsidy?
11:21<andythenorth>i.e. only destination or source is specified
11:21<frosch123>GSCargoMonitor
11:22<andythenorth>I meant existing subsidy machinery
11:22<frosch123>allows tracking of delivery at source or destination
11:22<andythenorth>I was thinking of adjusting rates
11:22<andythenorth>"Quackpool Textile Mill has a big contract, deliver Wool"
11:22<andythenorth>"Bubbleville Mine will pay double for enough supplies to max production"
11:23<frosch123>who cares about money
11:24<frosch123>add score as an alternative to money
11:25<andythenorth>ha ha you gave me an idea
11:25<andythenorth>all these stupid casual games have 'money' and also 'bucks' or 'gems'
11:25<andythenorth>all the good stuff needs bucks or gems :P
11:25<andythenorth>which costs real money on the other fruit store :P
11:26<frosch123>yup, there are always two types of money
11:26<andythenorth>which annoys me
11:26<andythenorth>(the paying)
11:26<frosch123>one easy to get, one hard to get, but also gettable via real money :p
11:26<andythenorth>maybe I introduce one that you get by having fun :P
11:26<andythenorth>can we trade it?
11:26<andythenorth>:P
11:27<frosch123>you could offer that for some fee :p
11:27<andythenorth>donate to ottd
11:27<andythenorth>pay someone to fix the mac port :P
11:28<andythenorth>could the extra currency be used to 'unlock' map sections?
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11:33<andythenorth>does GS have a UI with dialogs?
11:34*andythenorth reads docs
11:35<frosch123>there are questions in pop-up windows, similar to the engine preview
11:35<frosch123>and there is https://wiki.openttd.org/Story_book
11:37<andythenorth>found the popups
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11:38<andythenorth>presumably, if user went to a story book page, a question dialog could be shown
11:38<frosch123>not currently
11:38<frosch123>zuu is working on interactive story book elements
11:38<andythenorth>doesn't matter, getting ahead of myself :)
11:39<andythenorth>just thinking about the option to have some kind of 'get access to territories' method
11:39<andythenorth>without having to trigger dialog every month :P
11:40<andythenorth>"Where would you like to start your career" is a pretty common mechanic in sims
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11:40<frosch123>headquarters :)
11:42<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> that way the depot also deals as buffer when the production fluctuates and removes unneeeded trains from the network <-- that used to be very broken, as trains were only serviced on entering a depot, not exiting. so when they waited too long, they left with 0% reliability
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11:42<frosch123>"used to be"
11:43<frosch123>i am not playing with ottd 0.4
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11:44<andythenorth>ha that must have been fun to find :)
11:45<andythenorth>frosch123: so plant HQ to get first territory? Or you think it's just a silly mechanic? o_O
11:45<frosch123>it's common afaik
11:46<frosch123>as in at least two gs use that mechanic
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11:56<DanMacK>Hey all
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13:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26171 trunk/src/newgrf_storage.h (2013-12-23 18:07:57 UTC)
13:08<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Make TemporaryStorageArray keep track of assigned registers. Also make clearing the array 'cheaper'.
13:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26172 /trunk/src (newgrf_spritegroup.cpp newgrf_spritegroup.h) (2013-12-23 18:08:16 UTC)
13:08<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Make SpriteGroup::Resolve aware of nested calls.
13:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26173 /trunk/src (newgrf_spritegroup.cpp newgrf_storage.h) (2013-12-23 18:08:36 UTC)
13:08<@DorpsGek>-Change: [NewGRF] Reset the temporary storage registers for every sprite resolving.
13:09<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26174 /trunk/src (5 files) (2013-12-23 18:09:03 UTC)
13:09<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Rename BaseStorageArray to BasePersistentStorageArray
13:09<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26175 /trunk/src (9 files in 2 dirs) (2013-12-23 18:09:29 UTC)
13:09<@DorpsGek>-Add: Log in desync output when persistent storage is discarded.
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15:08<andythenorth>ho a congo heightmap
15:08<andythenorth>neat
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15:10<frosch123>hmm, has congo sea-access?
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>no
15:11<frosch123>in fact it has
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>unless you mean the river, instead of the country
15:11<frosch123>likely only a few km
15:11<frosch123>but technically it has
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15:12<Eddi|zuHause>well it also depends on which congo you mean :p
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>there's two of them
15:12<frosch123>not in the andy scenario
15:13<andythenorth>it's a bit generic tbh
15:13<andythenorth>but the FIRS economy kind of demands some coast :P
15:13<andythenorth>otherwise it doesn't work
15:14<andythenorth>it actually works quite well with the height map on bananas
15:14<andythenorth>it has built all the port industries in sensible places
15:17<andythenorth>now if only I could have sensible GS goals coinciding with a sensible map :)
15:17<andythenorth>it's a lot of restarts :P
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>set the goals per parameter?
15:18<andythenorth>let's see
15:18<andythenorth>NoCarGoal has no option for that :)
15:18<andythenorth>I could patch it... :P
15:21*andythenorth tries cdist for pax, and manual for other stuff
15:22<andythenorth>herp, with cdist I could stop station walking over the whole city :P
15:24<andythenorth>so what vehicle orders work with cdist?
15:24<andythenorth>full load?
15:24<@planetmaker>they'll be full anyway :)
15:25<andythenorth>the wiki page has warnings about certain orders not being supported
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>that should be outdated
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>all combinations of load/unload orders should be supported
15:26<andythenorth>k
15:26<andythenorth>can we split the 90' setting for ships and trains?
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>and problematic were only ever "no unloading" and "no loading" options
15:26<andythenorth>ship routing is quite borked without 90'
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>ship routing should be fine with yapf
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>except for where you place your dock
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>it needs space to turn around there
15:27<andythenorth>it's fine with 90' allowed
15:27<andythenorth>otherwise all kinds of bad happens
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>ships should just be allowed to turn in place
15:28<andythenorth>yes
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15:28<andythenorth>ho horses are rubbish :)
15:28*andythenorth is having all those observations that come from playing a game :P sorry
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>how dare you :p
15:29<andythenorth>play a game?
15:29<andythenorth>or have observations?
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>play the game
15:29<andythenorth>dare anyone patch in a flat dock?
15:29<andythenorth>just to, you know, see if it works?
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15:31<andythenorth>ha ha I just thought of a hideous hack for that
15:33<andythenorth>maybe FIRS can provide flat docks
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15:41<Eddi|zuHause>sure it can, but you won't be able to connect stations to them for transferring
15:42<andythenorth>oopsie :P
15:42<andythenorth>everything would have to be actually transferred by barge?
15:42<andythenorth>also placement would be a PITA
15:43<andythenorth>I tried turning off the slope check for docks, but all I got for christmas was an assert :)
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>step 1: allow multi-stop docks
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>step 2: make every side of the dock stop-able, unless blocked by land
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>step 3: allow single-tile docks
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15:47<andythenorth>didn't peter1138 have a patch for 1?
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15:50<Eddi|zuHause>quite possibly
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>(why must i always think of blink when i say that?)
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15:53<andythenorth>yair, some kind of dist is needed for town cargos :)
15:53<andythenorth>I have no-dist for alcohol, it's all going to one hotel
15:53<andythenorth>hundreds of tons of it will be needed :P
16:03<andythenorth>ha ha
16:04<andythenorth>FIRS has 1 bag of diamond = 1t of cargo
16:04<andythenorth>is that wise?
16:04<andythenorth>I guess they'd have to travel in a safe in the vehicle :P
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16:06<Eddi|zuHause>rename it "one safe of diamonds"? :p
16:06<andythenorth>one strongbox?
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>just set the weight to 1/16 or something
16:07<andythenorth>oh :( the diamond mines are 700 tiles away from the trading posts
16:07<andythenorth>and I have no aircraft in 1870 :P
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>assuming that's the lowest unit
16:07<andythenorth>this is just like real life :P
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>get a caravan
16:08<andythenorth>camels?
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>or mules
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>when you're not in the desert
16:09<andythenorth>jet mules
16:09<andythenorth>700 tiles is a long way at 10mph (fake speed)
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16:14<Eddi|zuHause>start with short routes :p
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>the silk road wasn't built in a day
16:16<Rubidium>it isn't even a road...
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>it's not made of silk either
16:17*andythenorth started with short routes ;)
16:17<andythenorth>I have 92 years or so to make this cargo goal
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>use cargodist and autorefit to increase the distance steadily
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>cargodist should be fixed to initiate multiple links if autorefit is enabled
16:19<andythenorth>I am steering clear of cdist for cargo right now :)
16:19<andythenorth>until I understand it more
16:19<andythenorth>sometimes a 'load x%' would be useful
16:20<andythenorth>we seem to have some conditional orders system that I don't understand, that can do that by sending trains in circles
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16:21<Zuu>andythenorth: Regarding NoCarGoal params I did consider to make a setting which will delay assignment of goal cargo is delayed and done using an in-game dialog. Possible similar to how the chapter selection in Beginner Tutorial is implemented and then run it 3 times to get all three cargoes.
16:23<Zuu>But so far I haven't actually made it as it will only work in single player or MP games with supervision.
16:23<andythenorth>:)
16:23<Zuu>Though maybe it is not a bad thing that the solution require an active MP admin :-)
16:26<andythenorth>I don't suppose we'd consider removing 'auto-refit any' ?
16:26<andythenorth>setting fixed refit orders would be faster if there was only one step - dropdown of cargos
16:27<andythenorth>maybe with 'any' or 'no change'
16:30<andythenorth>urgh, more borked refits
16:30<andythenorth>'transfer and wait for full load' simply doesn't work with a refit
16:31<andythenorth>vehicle just sits refusing to unload
16:32<andythenorth>wtf is it doing? :)
16:32<andythenorth>it's reloading
16:32<andythenorth>I added an
16:32<andythenorth>order
16:32<andythenorth>- goto A, transfer and leave empty
16:32<andythenorth>- goto A, full load with refit to rubber
16:33<andythenorth>it reloads the previous cargo before attempting the refit
16:33<andythenorth>and the refit fails because cargo is present
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16:33<andythenorth>what can I search for to try and fix this?
16:35<andythenorth>LoadUnloadVehicle ?
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16:38<andythenorth>what does a ship return for artic_part?
16:38<frosch123>NULL likely
16:39<andythenorth>I am looking around L1473 in economy.cpp
16:40<andythenorth>I have this 100% reproducible right now :P
16:40<andythenorth>just didn't figure out if it's limited to ships yet
16:40<andythenorth>if (front->current_order.IsRefit() && artic_part == 1 && IsArticulatedVehicleEmpty(v) &&
16:40<andythenorth>^ looks suspicious
16:40<frosch123>it will always be 1 for ships
16:41<andythenorth>so trains are refitting ok for equivalent order set
16:41<frosch123>what looks suspicious?
16:41<andythenorth>I wonder if something in that block (there is more) fails for ships?
16:42<frosch123>add a printf or breakpoint
16:42<frosch123>and see whether it triggers :)
16:43<NGC3982>Poopzie!
16:43<andythenorth>works if the order is not full load
16:43<andythenorth>interesting
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16:44<frosch123>take a debugger
16:44<andythenorth>ok my test was wrong
16:44<frosch123>and set a conditional breakpoint
16:44<frosch123>with front->unitnumber = your ship number
16:44<andythenorth>full load also breaks refit for trains
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16:45<frosch123>maybe check line 1370 then
16:47<andythenorth>oic :)
16:48<andythenorth>hmm, I am crap at boolean logic, but that line looks ok?
16:49<frosch123>doesn't it reserve cargo for the consist before refitting?
16:50<andythenorth>ah
16:54<frosch123>i believe there is some fs task about something similar
16:55<andythenorth>I'll look
16:55<frosch123>which says something like forbid loading and reserving until the vehicle has finished unloading, and is refitted
16:57<frosch123>fs#4953
16:58<andythenorth>I see
16:58<andythenorth>you are faster at searching than me :)
16:58<andythenorth>refitting at stations has some issues eh? :)
16:59<frosch123>well, i guess when that task was opened it only applied in some cases, while with cargo reservation it might apply more often
16:59<andythenorth>maybe we stretched the game too far with this one
16:59<frosch123>can you add a comment and savegame?
17:00<andythenorth>yes
17:00<andythenorth>I'll have to create a clean game - mine has unreleased grfs :P
17:00<andythenorth>oh and my ottd has patched ship smoke :P
17:00<andythenorth>fun times :)
17:01<andythenorth>revert to depot-based-refits only? o_O
17:02<andythenorth>there is also the problem of broken orders if newgrf authors do silly things with cb
17:02<andythenorth>and the issue that first time vehicle visits station with a refit order, no cargo will be distributed (iirc)
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17:09<andythenorth>we gained a supply count at stations? o_O
17:09<frosch123>it's just the thingie from last month
17:10<frosch123>scaled with station rating or so
17:10<andythenorth>all these little features are like christmas
17:10<frosch123>so, it's an estimation, no exact thing, like always :)
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17:22<fonsinchen>The supply count is not scaled by station rating. The cargo supplied to the station is added up continuously and halved in regular intervals see Node::UpdateSupply and LinkGraph::Compress for details.
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17:22<fonsinchen>In the end you get sort of a running average
17:25<fonsinchen>The problem with initiating multiple links on autorefit to any is that you don't know in advance what cargoes the vehicles arriving at a station will be able to refit to.
17:26<fonsinchen>Getting that right would mean monitoring any vehicles added or removed to/from any consist serving a link.
17:27<fonsinchen>That's pretty messy.
17:27<andythenorth>you also can't account for what the newgrf can do
17:27<andythenorth>although maybe you would have to discount that
17:27<frosch123>fonsinchen: i think andy's case was about refitting to a specific cargo
17:27<frosch123>not the variable auto-refit
17:27<andythenorth>it was
17:28<andythenorth>the variable auto-refit is a mess :)
17:28<fonsinchen>That shouldn't be a problem.
17:28<fonsinchen>Oh, it doesn't refit if there is cargo present in the vehicle. Interesting.
17:29<fonsinchen>Maybe the refit should override the reservation and just return reserved cargo if the vehicle has only reserved, but not loaded.
17:31<fonsinchen>Shouldn't be hard to do. There's a check for Count() == 0 somewhere. Just change that to OnboardCount() and add a Return() after it.
17:32<frosch123>IsArticulatedVehicleEmpty has a TotalCount != 0
17:32<frosch123>no idea what the refit command would do with the reservatiojn
17:40<andythenorth>good night :)
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17:42<fonsinchen>IsArticulatedVehicleEmpty is only called from LoadUnloadVehicle. It could easily be changed to check OnboardCount instead
17:44<fonsinchen>Then just add a v->cargo.Return() after line 1474 in economy.cpp and some special code for aircraft "shadows"
17:44<fonsinchen>That's it.
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17:44<frosch123>i'll try to get andy test that :)
17:44<fonsinchen>good night
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18:34<NGC3982>The intro screen to Poirot reminds me of the original Transport Tycoon game case.
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19:50<Xaroth|Work>NGC3982: it does
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20:16<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 24 00:00:49 2013