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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-12-28

---Logopened Sat Dec 28 00:00:55 2013
00:06<Flygon>Supercheese: Not only does it work, I can run standard trains on it too O_o
00:07<Flygon>Finally, a railset that lets me operate a system like Melbourne's
00:07<Flygon>Metro EMU's crammed together with Diesel HST's fighting eachother for paths on HST track
00:07<Flygon>Yeeeeaaaah
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02:13<andythenorth>o/
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02:26<andythenorth>hmm
02:27<andythenorth>auto-refittability should be noted in the buy menu by ottd
02:27<@Alberth>mornink andy
02:27<andythenorth>bonsoir
02:28<andythenorth>I can note fundamentally whether a vehicle has autorefit flag set, and write that into buy menu
02:28<andythenorth>but for vehicles that only have one cargo in game, it's a bit weird, because buy menu says 'Offers auto-refit' but that's lies
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02:29<andythenorth>we should just special case 'Refittable to:' string
02:29<@Alberth>it's problematic in the general sense I think, being able to refit depends on the current cargo, doesn't it?
02:29<andythenorth>Refittable | Auto-refittable
02:29<andythenorth>Alberth: that's a different problematic issue yes
02:30<andythenorth>that is already present in the orders menu
02:31<@Alberth>lately I have been wondering why I cannot buy a wagon for the cargo I want
02:32<@Alberth>but I agree with you, it would be nice if you can see whether a wagon is auto-refittable
02:32<andythenorth>I think as we have the feature, for better or worse, we should knock the edges off :)
02:32<andythenorth>currently it has...problems. Fonso just fixed a big one :)
02:33<andythenorth>but 'andythenorth thinks...' does not result in 'andythenorth has a patch' :)
02:33<@Alberth>I saw a fix flyng by, I didn't pay enough attention to know what it does :)
02:34<andythenorth>solves an issue with full load preventing a refit
02:34<andythenorth>caused by cargo reservations
02:34<andythenorth>ish
02:34<@Alberth>but andy does know how to make the best of a system :)
02:36<@Alberth>having some future vision of the order and buy system would be useful for making a roadmap, imho
02:37<andythenorth>I am +1 to having it better
02:37<andythenorth>(a better vision)
02:37<andythenorth>what problems does it cause you?
02:38<@Alberth>buying the first train requires refit for 50+% as well
02:39<andythenorth>yes
02:39<@Alberth>for cdist I discovered it actually makes sense to have partial loading
02:39<andythenorth>yes
02:39<andythenorth>and for auto-refit
02:39<@Alberth>so you can go elsewhere to fill up further
02:40<andythenorth>cargo amounts may not be matched at nodes
02:40<andythenorth>leaving empty is undesirable
02:40<andythenorth>leaving full may break the network
02:40<andythenorth>even for a simple A-B route with autorefit to fixed cargo at each end
02:40<@Alberth>I played with auto-refit once, but it's pretty limited
02:40<andythenorth>it's a bit weird
02:41<@Alberth>you cannot do "large" refits, like oil one way, and coal back
02:41<andythenorth>ever used any of the conditional order methods for controlling load amount?
02:41<andythenorth>you can with Squid, to some extent, and NUTS
02:42<@Alberth>I used conditional order for looping around between farms until loaded enough
02:42<andythenorth>conditional orders are odd
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02:42<andythenorth>it's a *very* specific programmatic way of thinking
02:42<@Alberth>but it doesn't play nice with cdist, I think
02:43<andythenorth>it's a do-while loop afaict, which most players won't understand
02:43<@Alberth>I also used conditional orders to skip part of the unload cycle (if empty, return now)
02:43<andythenorth>and FWIW, I rarely write do-while loops :P
02:43<andythenorth>it's a hiring question we use for programmers, to see if they forget to close them :P
02:44*andythenorth digressed sorry
02:44<@Alberth>so the right answer is "I never use them? " :)
02:44<andythenorth>:D
02:44<andythenorth>other people clearly like them :)
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02:45<andythenorth>so manually refitting when you buy a vehicle is annoying?
02:45<@Alberth>I didn't realize it, but I think you are right. They are somewhat like programmable signals, very programmer oriented
02:46<@Alberth>you rarely buy a first vehicle
02:46<@Alberth>I even clone an existing train when adding a route withe the same cargo
02:47<@Alberth>which sort of suggests you really want some consist to chose
02:47<andythenorth>ah consists :)
02:47<@Alberth>I am disgressing as well :p
02:48<@Alberth>another annoyance is the "smart" order system, where it automagically adds orders after selecting the first one
02:48<andythenorth>?
02:48<@Alberth>quite often I don't even realize it does that until it is too late
02:48<andythenorth>what is it doing?
02:50<@Alberth>I am not sure what the conditions are to reproduce, but you have a network with some stations and trains running between them. You want to add a new route, so you build new tracks and stations
02:50<@Alberth>when you buy a new train, and start giving it orders, you select a station of the existing network, and then it adds orders of a train that already exists
02:51<andythenorth>ah, you have a train waiting in the station?
02:51<andythenorth>so you've picked its orders
02:51<@Alberth>maybe that's what happens, but I don't click at the train, at least not intentionally
02:52<andythenorth>no
02:52<andythenorth>I've done the same
02:52<andythenorth>it's good when it's good, and bad when it's bad :P
02:53<@Alberth>it should enable a button "finish orders" or so, in such a case
02:53<andythenorth>so the annoyance of building vehicles, then having to refit...
02:54<andythenorth>do you buy with double click, or with 'buy vehicle' (or translated equivalent)
02:54<andythenorth>?
02:54<@Alberth>oh, refitting. Can you refit say, the 3rd and 4th wagon of a long train?
02:54<@Alberth>I use the "buy vehicle" button
02:54<@Alberth>but refit with double click, I noticed
02:55<andythenorth>you can refit the 3rd or 4th wagon in depot, if the newgrf permits
02:55<andythenorth>but not with auto-refit
02:55<@Alberth>yeah, separately, but together?
02:55<andythenorth>there's a drag-to-select
02:56<andythenorth>3rd and 5th not possible
02:56<@Alberth>ah, should try that one time, then
02:56<andythenorth>ctrl does something there too
02:56<@Alberth>I tried ctrl clicking, but it seems to select "this wagon to end"
02:56<andythenorth>yeah
02:57*andythenorth wondering if there should be a way to purchase vehicle directly refitted, using a drop down
02:57<andythenorth>I don't know if it's a common case
02:57<andythenorth>for trains I buy n vehicles, then refit in depot
02:57<@Alberth>I was thinking to make the buy menu longer
02:57<@Alberth>or foldable like a tree
02:57<andythenorth>oh, ships, aircraft and trucks - they would benefit direct refitting
02:58<@Alberth>you could even display alternative graphics, if that's possible
02:58<andythenorth>so show all available variants, with a filter?
02:58<andythenorth>basically run the newgrfs refit cycle?
02:58<@Alberth>there is a filter already
02:58<andythenorth>yes
02:59<andythenorth>I was wondering about order: (a) choose vehicle, then see variants, xor (b) choose desired cargo, see vehicles
03:00<andythenorth>I think we have a lot of newgrfs and such that assume (a) is the most important, for those making accurate model railways
03:00<@Alberth>I'd want to see all variants of a wagon always
03:00<andythenorth>but I think we are discovering that (b) is more important for gameplay
03:00<@Alberth>the filter should indeed really be a filter, and show me the refitted alternative
03:01<@Alberth>(a) is useful for all those newgrfs with too many vehicles in them :)
03:01<@Alberth>although if you play with firs, the list is going to be long anyway :)
03:02<@Alberth>oh, that reminds me, am I correct in thinking that chips grain silos don't work for arctic wheat?
03:03<@Alberth>as for auto-refit, another annoyance is that you have to enable the cargo flow at the station
03:03<@Alberth>I have been pondering how to fix that from a gui perspective
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03:05<@Alberth>frosch believes the right direction is to always have a rating for all cargos, and just enable/disable flow. I think it makes sense to do that
03:05<andythenorth>Alberth: might be a CHIPS bug...quite possible
03:05<andythenorth>also don't consider standard FIRS economy as 'good', it has too many cargos to take it seriously
03:05<andythenorth>it's an edge case :P
03:06<andythenorth>and yes, the cargo flow issue with auto-refit is in some ways minor, but also quite crippling, like toothache
03:06<@Alberth>although it will need an experiment to see how the rating turns out for disabled flow cargoes
03:07<andythenorth>so far I think magic 'auto-refit any available' is bad
03:08<andythenorth>I liked the idea a lot, but in gameplay, it doesn't work
03:08<andythenorth>and I can't understand how cdist would ever work with it in a nice way
03:08<@Alberth>I intend the station flow stuff give it a try soon-ish, but I need to first make my coaster cars follow the coaster properly :p
03:08<andythenorth>make 'Dangerous Roller Coast Tycoon'
03:08<andythenorth>Coaster *
03:09<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/out.ogv it needs some fixing :p
03:09<andythenorth>oic :)
03:09<andythenorth>btw I am only used fixed cargo auto-refit
03:09<andythenorth>which should probably just be called 'station refit' or something :P
03:10<andythenorth>or just 'refit'
03:10<@Alberth>in the game I played, you could auto-refit maize and fruit, iirc
03:11<@Alberth>but I find it quite limiting, the number of cases where different cargos need to go in the same direction is so small
03:11<@Alberth>also due to auto-refit limitations
03:12<andythenorth>it gets used a lot for FIRS supplies I think
03:13<andythenorth>from what some players have said
03:13<andythenorth>but even there, due to newgrf implementations of it, not that useful
03:14<@Alberth>I wonder what would happen if you let go of newgrf limits
03:14<andythenorth>(1) some whining
03:14<andythenorth>(2) some strange graphical changes at stations
03:14<andythenorth>I refuse to limit auto-refit
03:15<andythenorth>the vehicle has to auto-refit to all refittable cargos, otherwise orders are broken imo
03:15<@Alberth>ie I often have the desire to build a common back-bone of massive high-speed transport, with local trains for serving the industries
03:15<andythenorth>+1
03:15<@Alberth>but it's practically impossible to do that
03:15<andythenorth>because...?
03:16<@Alberth>lack of high-speed trains in 1950+, and lack of universal auto-refit, I think
03:17<@Alberth>mono and maglev are not that useful, as te is awful
03:17<andythenorth>would guess that NUTS solves most of that?
03:17<@Alberth>nuts has no auto-refit
03:17<andythenorth>:o
03:17<andythenorth>oic
03:17<andythenorth>a political decision :)
03:17<@Alberth>it's author doesn't believe it's a good feature :p
03:18<andythenorth>hmm
03:18<@Alberth>but yeah, mono and maglev are nice in nuts :)
03:18<andythenorth>so with Squid, Iron Horse, and the truck set I'm doing, you kind of get the following:
03:18<@Alberth>but it means a backbone still needs a shit-load of different trains
03:18<andythenorth>- pax and mail are straightforward, with some vehicles also refitting to both
03:19<andythenorth>- 'general cargo' vehicles refit everything except pax, mail
03:19<@Alberth>pax and mail are mostly also the only useful cargo for cdist, imho
03:19<andythenorth>+1 to that right now
03:19<andythenorth>then we have some specialised flows, so
03:20<andythenorth>- tankers for liquids, usually with a little capacity bonus
03:20<andythenorth>- refrigerated with a cargo payment bonus
03:20<andythenorth>- livestock with cargo payment bonus
03:20<andythenorth>- 'express' cargos, usually faster
03:20<andythenorth>you can load anything into a general cargo backbone
03:21<andythenorth>or you can use point-to-point with the specialised vehicles
03:21<@Alberth>sounds just what the doctor ordered :)
03:21<andythenorth>that is the theory anyway :P
03:22<@Alberth>so I should play with iron horse, it seems :)
03:22<andythenorth>it's playable
03:22<andythenorth>lots of glitches, but my game is fun
03:23<andythenorth>so the problem with backbone is that 'load any available' isn't very good :P
03:23<andythenorth>and I wonder if it's positively damaging to cdist
03:24<@Alberth>huh, how is it not good?
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03:25<andythenorth>there are a set of issues with bad newgrf choices, which can be solved by choosing better newgrfs :P
03:25<andythenorth>but also - what does it do? I can't figure out how it works :)
03:25<andythenorth>which cargos does it choose to load?
03:25<andythenorth>how do they know to unload?
03:25<andythenorth>and how would you use them with transfers on the backbone?
03:26<andythenorth>how do you stop it 'stealing' cargo intended for elsewhere?
03:27<@Alberth>the flow graph decides how cargo is distributed, at the moment the cargo is generated, it gets a destination, within the limits of your network
03:28<@Alberth>and not only a destination, also a route to it
03:28<andythenorth>assuming you have some dist enabled...so all the above are solved by dist...?
03:29<@Alberth>you cannot stop it from "stealing" other than by not allowing it in your network
03:29<andythenorth>ok so the problem isn't with 'load any available', it's a newgrf + dist problem
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03:29<@Alberth>I don't know how it decides what to load. I'd guess it does something simple, like FIFO
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03:30<@Alberth>unload is trivial, since the entire route is fixed
03:31<@Alberth>one of the troubles is that too much freedom makes cdist act "weird", it finds routes to a destination using ways you didn't intend to use
03:32<@Alberth>I was moving food to 2 cities, from a factory.
03:32<@Alberth>the pax trains also had a food car for further distribution to other cities
03:33<@Alberth>since to food link to city A was overloaded, it decided to reroute some of it via city B :)
03:33<@Alberth>obviously one food car didn't do the trick either :p
03:34<@Alberth>this may be somewhat due to limitations in the order system
03:34<@Alberth>you cannot express "load pax, but not food"
03:35<andythenorth>there's no equivalent of check boxes :)
03:36<andythenorth>I was looking for screen shots of Railroad Tycoon, where much of this was solved elegantly in a single screen
03:36<andythenorth>although without all of our complexity problems :)
03:36<andythenorth>and on rather different foundations :)
03:38<@Alberth>we have the requirement that all wagons need to stay with the train at all times, which makes it all much more difficult
03:38<andythenorth>yes indeed
03:38<andythenorth>also my memory was faulty :P
03:38<andythenorth>http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/54482-railroad-tycoon-3-windows-screenshot-you-can-choose-a-specific.jpg
03:39<andythenorth>I thought you could choose multiple cargos from the explicit cargo list
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03:39<andythenorth>but now I think you can't
03:39<andythenorth>it's one only
03:39<andythenorth>if we had consists...that requirement could be dropped
03:39<andythenorth>but I don't think that's really TTD any more then
03:44<@Alberth>it's useful for advanced users
03:44<@Alberth>but for starters, it's awful
03:45<andythenorth>consists are a bit abstract
03:45<andythenorth>vehicles are more like a real thing
03:46<andythenorth>Railroad Tycoon 3 was basically an economy + industry game, the trains were mostly irrelevant
03:46<andythenorth>the author kind of concurred
03:47<andythenorth>also consists are totally meaningless for RVs, ships and planes
03:47<andythenorth>:)
03:47<@Alberth>for ships, it may make a little sense if you could haul different cargoes at the same time
03:48<andythenorth>if :)
03:48<@Alberth>but indeed, mostly useless :)
03:48<andythenorth>but then we start to string a lot of things together :)
03:48<andythenorth>and our vision can also then encompass 'multi-threaded'
03:48<andythenorth>and massively multiplayer :)
03:49<@Alberth>nah :)
03:50<@Alberth>I agree restricting to orders and buying is sufficiently complicated already :)
03:52<andythenorth>do you think that auto-refit should be consistent with depot refit w.r.t to refitting individual vehicles?
03:52<andythenorth>(I am having some thoughts about order setting)
03:54<@Alberth>not necessarily; for something like default vehicles it makes sense, but with eg the universal wagons of nuts, I could see that auto-refit at a station is more limited
03:55<@Alberth>depots would be useful for servicing only, otherwise
03:55<@Alberth>which I think many players don't even do
03:55<andythenorth>I only use them for building :)
03:55<andythenorth>and scrapping :P
03:55<andythenorth>and replacing
03:56<@Alberth>right, they have more uses thus :)
03:57<@Alberth>but perhaps universal wagons exist due to our complicated buy + refit system?
03:57<andythenorth>perhaps :)
03:59<@Alberth>I doubt very much that all newgrf authors would be happy with auto-refit and depot refit being the same
03:59<andythenorth>the annoying need to refit in depot can be sidestepped by using instead an annoying autorefit order :)
03:59<andythenorth>they are wrong tbh
03:59<andythenorth>very wrong
03:59<@Alberth>unfortunately, there are so many wrong solutions :)
04:00<andythenorth>mostly we have been quite good with the newgrf spec though
04:00<andythenorth>it's quite hard to write newgrfs that actually break the game
04:00<andythenorth>you would have to be inventive
04:00<@Alberth>we tend to fix such holes :)
04:01<andythenorth>I should file a FS against the defect :)
04:01<andythenorth>I am bad at FS :P
04:02<@Alberth>a recent one made me laugh, you could give power to a train yet be on incompatible tracks. It resulted in a running train not getting path reservations :)
04:02<andythenorth>nice
04:04<andythenorth>I shipped a broken HEQS
04:04<andythenorth>that got fixed
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04:08<@Alberth>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5779/getfile/9409/still_no_path_claimed.png the train at the left makes a 90 degrees turn right into a reserved path :)
04:08<@Alberth>it missed the other train by just a few pixels :p
04:09<andythenorth>:)
04:10<andythenorth>HEQS trams were auto-refitting in stations, and changing length
04:10<andythenorth>changing length in stations is.... frowned upon
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04:11<@Alberth>gives interesting loading effects for trains that fit exactly in a station :)
04:13*andythenorth tries to think of silly things that orders and refit ought to support
04:14<andythenorth>on Sundays I want all my trains to wait in depot :P
04:15<andythenorth>and I'd like to change colours with orders
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04:58<andythenorth>ho ho
04:58<andythenorth>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5432
04:58<andythenorth>conditional order: "this train is weak and underpowered, go via the flat route"
04:58<andythenorth>etc :P
05:01<@Alberth>lol, let's just have one order, shared by all trains :p
05:03<andythenorth>I think so
05:03<@Alberth>I wonder how this relates with programmable signals
05:03<andythenorth>preferably, magic
05:03<andythenorth>move all the orders off the vehicles and into programmable signals
05:04<andythenorth>instead of having distributed agents, try and centralise everything with some kind of master control program
05:04<andythenorth>always goes well
05:04<@Alberth>fs 5432 is the result of too much sharing of orders, probably
05:04<andythenorth>this FS is wrong, but points at consists imo http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5407
05:07<@Alberth>I don't see that
05:09<andythenorth>he found cloning difficult, he wants a way to add vehicles to shared orders with single click?
05:09<andythenorth>hmm, as we don't have a definition for consists, maybe I withdraw that comment :)
05:11<@Alberth>consist is a train with a pre-defined sequence of wagons, imho
05:12<@Alberth>he wants a way to add vehicles to shared orders with single click? <-- that's what I read too
05:12<andythenorth>so instances of a consist might have different order sets?
05:12<@Alberth>although I don't understand "without local changes"
05:13<@Alberth>sure, I'd like a "wood haul consist" for every forest -> saw mill route
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05:14<andythenorth>ok, so consists and orders are not 1:1 relation
05:14<andythenorth>but maybe consists are another day :)
05:14<andythenorth>fonsinchen: I'm trying to test an edge case for your refit fix, articulated vehicles - mentioned by rubi here http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4953#comment10689
05:14<@Alberth>eg a pax consist for every local pax route, and another one for longer distances
05:14<andythenorth>can't find any vehicle sets with support yet :P
05:16<@Alberth>re 5407, if you want a really exact copy, it should have shared orders only when the original had shared orders, but that's highly complicated for the user
05:17<andythenorth>yup
05:17<andythenorth>exact copy is a misleading issue
05:17<andythenorth>as the word clone might also be misleading
05:20<andythenorth>hmm, an assert :P
05:20<@Alberth>yay, you broke openttd :)
05:21<andythenorth>prize for me
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05:27<andythenorth>this looks interesting http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5299
05:27<andythenorth>almost worth seeing if the patch compiles
05:28<@Alberth>ha, my car path is totally messed up: you want to go to x-256, so let's move y from 0 to 256, and keep x at 128 :P
05:29<andythenorth>oic :)
05:29<andythenorth>why not do it all in vectors, and make it extra complicated?
05:30<andythenorth>that's how I used to do it in flash :P
05:30<@Alberth>I use bezier curves, does that count too?
05:30<andythenorth>certainly
05:32<andythenorth>are you moving the cars in a 3D space, or just making them follow paths on the screen?
05:32<@Alberth>sbr usually makes working patches :)
05:32<@Alberth>3d space
05:32<andythenorth>probably more correct in the long run
05:32<@Alberth>the window doesn't look right, it should be in the order window itself
05:33<@Alberth>otherwise you'll never get the spirally stuff right
05:33<@Alberth>and 3d makes that you can compute gravity etc
05:33<andythenorth>you don't have to do perspective also though? It's iso?
05:34<@Alberth>I compute where the car is supposed to be in 3D, then translate that coordinate to 2D, and blit the car at that position
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05:35<@Alberth>I still need to compute orientation, and use that to select the right car sprite
05:36<andythenorth>sounds like trigonometry
05:36<@Alberth>it is :p
05:36<andythenorth>I always tried to resolve game problems to simple trig
05:36<andythenorth>I can manage that kind of thing
05:36<@Alberth>:o
05:36<@Alberth>you want to derive yaw and pitch from roll? :)
05:36<andythenorth>I mean orientations and movement code and such :)
05:36<@Alberth>and the derivative of the path?
05:36<andythenorth>everything I did was 2D
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05:37<andythenorth>and flash also has animation paths, so if at all possible, I would just get things to follow those
05:37<andythenorth>you can cover a lot of sins by slaving to an animation path with some randomness
05:38<@Alberth>flash has them too? I know that svg has them, but they may have looked at flash thus
05:38<andythenorth>allegedly mario kart does the same thing for AI players
05:38<andythenorth>flash was originally an animation tool, then gained scripting
05:38<andythenorth>so you make an object that moves around the track / level / whatever
05:38<@Alberth>nice :)
05:38<andythenorth>animated, with stop/start control
05:38<andythenorth>then track the x and y pos
05:38<andythenorth>and vector towards it
05:39<@Alberth>making a usful AI is way too complicated, I can understand they cheat :)
05:39<andythenorth>works well for enemy players in racing games etc
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05:39<andythenorth>also level monsters
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05:39<@Alberth>makes sense
05:40<andythenorth>so that cargo unload / load order thing looks interesting
05:41<andythenorth>I think it's probably anti-cdist though
05:41<andythenorth>but interesting
05:41<@Alberth>it's the right direction imho
05:41<@Alberth>except it shouldn't be a 2nd window
05:42<@Alberth>not sure how it is anti-cdist, cdist stays in limits you create
05:43<@Alberth>ie you don't give up control over the cargo flow, mostly
05:44<@Alberth>unlike yacd, where you get a cargo flow, and you have to make your network match the flow
05:44<andythenorth>oh of course, this way we would have a nice deterministic link graph :)
05:44<andythenorth>silly andythenorth
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06:00<Wolf01>moin
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06:11<@Alberth>moin
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06:32<fonsinchen>Oh, miles of backlog ... :/
06:33<andythenorth>just chat :)
06:34<andythenorth>fonsinchen: I found a problem with the refit fix, and owe you a savegame
06:36*andythenorth making one
06:37<fonsinchen>Nice, thanks.
06:37<fonsinchen>I think we should make a FS task to keep things organized. FS#4953 doesn't really fit.
06:37<fonsinchen>I'll create one
06:38<andythenorth>please
06:39<andythenorth>I have a save now
06:39<andythenorth>although I can't trigger the assert I saw last time I tested
06:41<fonsinchen>https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5839
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06:41<fonsinchen>Can you please add the savegame and whatever information you have about the assert there?
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06:59<@Alberth>bbl
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07:02<andythenorth>fonsinchen: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5839 updated
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07:51<andythenorth>urgh, FS reposted my form :P
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08:21<andythenorth>trying to decide if seagulls would look good at ports
08:21<andythenorth>or if they'd be stupid pixely blobs that look stuck on
08:22<andythenorth>(animated flying seagulls)
08:23<andythenorth>and whether sheep and cows in fields should move occasionally (as a herd / flock)
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>didn't someone already make animated seagulls as objects?
08:24<andythenorth>supercheese
08:24*andythenorth tests them
08:26<andythenorth>quite nice
08:26<andythenorth>bit busy, they have to cycle constantly
08:27<andythenorth>also bloody enormous, like flying sheep :)
08:27<andythenorth>but nice grf anywya
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08:31<@Alberth>moin
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10:48<andythenorth>git > hg for merges :P
10:48<Xaroth|Work>agreed
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12:30<fonsinchen>The whole refit-at-station feature is broken by design. Why did we add it in the first place?
12:40<andythenorth>fonsinchen: dunno :)
12:40<andythenorth>it seemed popular
12:40<andythenorth>but it has so many issues ;)(
12:40<andythenorth>;)
12:41<fonsinchen>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4953#comment10689 deserves its own FS task and is something else than https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5839
12:42<fonsinchen>My patch fixes the issue that you can't refit + full load if the the old cargo is present in the station - even without articulated vehicles.
12:42<fonsinchen>This situation was created by the introduction of cargo reservations.
12:43<andythenorth>fonsinchen: are you also aware of implications of CB 15E? o_O http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Refit_cost_factor_.2815E.29
12:43<andythenorth>we either think it's acceptable for newgrf to silently break orders, or....um,
12:43<andythenorth>dunno
12:43<andythenorth>seems bad anyway
12:44<fonsinchen>I think I've noticed that with opengfx+ trains
12:44<fonsinchen>You can select a coal->grain refit in the order list but it won't be carried out.
12:45<fonsinchen>coal->ore is OK, though
12:45<andythenorth>yes
12:45<andythenorth>and you won't be notified
12:45<andythenorth>nor will AI
12:45<andythenorth>and I could write a grf that makes the decision completely stupidly, like random or such
12:46<andythenorth>although that's not the only stupid thing I could do in a grf :D
12:46<andythenorth>but the presence of 'refit any available' makes it entirely non-deterministic, so we can't really even try and offer a warning to player
12:46<+michi_cc>What's the difference to randomizing speed, power or whatever based on phase of moon? NewGRF authors should simply show some restraint when using CB 15E.
12:47<fonsinchen>Why did they include that flag in the spec? It's bound to make problems.
12:48<andythenorth>michi_cc: I accept the argument, but if I randomise power / speed etc, the game will eventually tell me a train is lost or whatever, if I get 0 for the values
12:48<andythenorth>and also everyone would agree that setting those values to 0 is stupid
12:48<andythenorth>but we seem to think that preventing refits on arbitrary conditions is actually desirable :)
12:49<andythenorth>don't get me wrong, I want the feature to succeed, I was an advocate for it
12:49<andythenorth>refitting in depot is boring
12:49<fonsinchen>The people definig that spec must have been drunk
12:56<andythenorth>well sometimes it's nice to just try and get something done, instead of discussing for years :)
12:56<andythenorth>and players seem to like it
12:57<andythenorth>although I had to redesign and entire ship set to accomodate it :P
12:57<andythenorth>but nvm
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13:06<Rubidium>andythenorth: but look how much of TTD needed to be redesigned to bring you that possibility
13:07<andythenorth>:)
13:07<andythenorth>should have used XML :P
13:12<andythenorth>where is the thing where we say 'OpenTTD is not military'
13:13<andythenorth>can't find it on openttd.org
13:14<andythenorth>old forum results say it's on ottd wiki, but I can't find it there
13:14<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://wiki.openttd.org/Objectives
13:16<andythenorth>thanks
13:17<andythenorth>so I assume it still stands?
13:17<@Alberth>seems like it :p
13:18<andythenorth>FIRS won't be growing a military economy then :)
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13:19<@Alberth>maybe we should add that it we don't aim to make a RL simulation
13:19<andythenorth>ho ho
13:20<andythenorth>that ship has sailed
13:20<@Alberth>:(
13:20<andythenorth>although...
13:20<andythenorth>hmm
13:20*andythenorth has some ideas
13:21<andythenorth>to help solve the Dutch set's problem :)
13:21<@Alberth>fork, and make a sane setup :p
13:21<andythenorth>we really miss important stuff, like sustained power output, not just peak output
13:22<andythenorth>engines can't run at max power for hours on end
13:22<andythenorth>the dutch set problem (see their thread) would be solved by a spec extension
13:22<andythenorth>freight locomotives can't run at sustained 50km/h in the 19th Century, they have small wheels, and the rotational speed degrades their axle bearings, or causes fires
13:23<andythenorth>passenger engines have larger wheels and more expensively machine bearings
13:23<andythenorth>these things are important, right? :P
13:23<andythenorth>in fact that can all be done in newgrf
13:23<andythenorth>with a tick counter or such
13:23<andythenorth>I think
13:23<andythenorth>set the animation frame if you've been travelling at top speed for n tiles
13:24<andythenorth>then use that to force reduced speed
13:24<andythenorth>also we miss incompatible signalling systems
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13:24<andythenorth>and the type of multiple-control equipment on locomotives
13:24<andythenorth>and union agreements about the number of drivers and guards
13:24<andythenorth>and brake force calculations
13:24<@Alberth>oh dear
13:25<andythenorth>and coupling types
13:25<andythenorth>and minimum chain curves
13:25<andythenorth>and max gradeability
13:25<andythenorth>all very important :P
13:25*andythenorth may have digressed
13:26<andythenorth>so no war in FIRS then
13:26<@Alberth>you forgot about non-45 degrees curves
13:28<andythenorth>he :)
13:32*Pinkbeast would love to see proper semaphore signalling in OTTD actually (runs away)
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13:38*fonsinchen just got a second screw stuck in that old PowerBook :(
13:39<fonsinchen>Never gonna open that thing without destroying the keyboard again, I guess
13:39<Matulla>hi question is it posible to see the towns that need water or food to grom in a list
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26184 trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt (2013-12-28 18:45:09 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>welsh - 126 changes by kazzie
13:45<@Alberth>hmm, I wouldn't know any simple way to get that information
13:47<@Alberth>perhaps with the minimap, look eg for towns in the desert
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13:52<Matulla>agree but on large scale there are many and so lots of time town does not grow cause of not supplyed
13:54<@Alberth>I can imagine, but I never play for town growth
13:54<Matulla>some do that some different
13:57<@Alberth>quite a lot of "some", judging by the forum questions :)
13:57<Matulla>;-)
13:58<Matulla>BYE have a nice wekend its the last in 2013
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14:23<andythenorth>some kind of demand overlay on the map is an idea I tried to figure out once
14:23<andythenorth>I wondered if it could be done the way TTRS grf does it, with custom ground tiles, and just use transparent
14:24<andythenorth>whichever newgrf provides the cargos provides the icons to overlay
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15:27*andythenorth does commits
15:28<Xaroth|Work>the horrow
15:28<Xaroth|Work>the horror, even
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18:31<__ln__>can /ð/ and /θ/ be a minimal pair in english?
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18:47<Eddi|zuHause>what the who?
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18:49<__ln__>the first sound of e.g. 'this' and 'think', respectively. is there some word where changing just that one sound to the other changes the meaning of the word.
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18:50<Eddi|zuHause>that would mean they'd be written the same, just spoken differently
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>well, almost :)
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>there are words in french that are spoken the same and written differently
18:52<__ln__>in english as well, for example knight and night
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>well you know this sketch "what are you thinking about?"
18:53<__ln__>no, not by that name at least
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT86iWiH2mI
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably very close to your question
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>but not exact
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>where can i disable autoplaying videos when browsing the steam shop?
18:58<__ln__>yes, that's basically the idea, but for a bit different phonemes
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>i can't think of any example
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>in general, having such "minimal pairs" sounds like a bad thing to have
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>but when did that ever stop anyone :p
19:02<__ln__>umm, "minimal pair" is an important concept in phonetics. :) but i'm thinking the definition for it that i've learned is either over-simplified, or i've forgotten some details about it.
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>i mean "minimal pair" of length one will screw with your error detection ability
19:05<__ln__>yes, that's true
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21:23<Wolf01>'night all
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23:16<Flygon>I'm going to run on the assumption here that FRISS doesn't unlock electric lines along similiar parematers to that other one... with the name... that I forgot
23:16<Flygon>The one with the awkward grey rails with the graphical alignment error on some junctions
23:37<Eddi|zuHause>you mean nutracks
23:38<Eddi|zuHause>generally, rails are unlocked as soon as an engine is available for them, but the track set may specify additional triggers (like other railtype becoming available or simple date)
23:39<Flygon>Yeah, nutracks
23:40<Flygon>Yeah, I'm suspecting FRISS is datelocked
23:40<Flygon>Metro becoming unlocked as soon as I got them surprised me, though
23:40<Eddi|zuHause>the track set cannot prevent this
23:40<Eddi|zuHause>it can only make it appear earlier, not later
23:41<Flygon>Hm
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 29 00:00:58 2013