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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-12-30

---Logopened Mon Dec 30 00:00:58 2013
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03:21<andythenorth>it's nice that ben1338 has described a requirement for patch and gcc, from first principles :)
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03:39<andythenorth>it's in a magical patching thread
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03:39<andythenorth>I'm not being mean about it btw
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04:03<Rubidium>andythenorth: the one I made that promise in?
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04:06<andythenorth>Rubidium: yes
04:08<andythenorth>I think if I were designing a magical patching system
04:08<andythenorth>I might make it so all the patches are alrady included in the binary
04:08<andythenorth>and there's some kind of UI to turn them on and off
04:08<andythenorth>maybe checkboxes or dropdowns or whatever
04:10<Rubidium>andythenorth: but you can't include future patches
04:10<@Alberth>surely such a patch system could figure that out itself?
04:11<andythenorth>Rubidium: you would have to get a new binary
04:11<andythenorth>including all the new patches
04:12<@Alberth>andy, as for your question yesterday, I didn't consider trucks, but I guess so. However, I play mostly with default trucks, and they are all specialised for a particular cargo, so the need to refit with buy is not that big
04:12<andythenorth>you would probably want to make sure there are no problems with these 'mods' though
04:12<andythenorth>so maybe, like, developers review them first perhaps?
04:12<andythenorth>patches is not a player friendly term
04:12<andythenorth>so we should call them 'mods'
04:12<andythenorth>or maybe 'settings'
04:13<@Alberth>good, we already have the advanced ones, so we can use normal ones :p
04:13<Rubidium>andythenorth: but it needs to be done automatically by OpenTTD... so what I effectively suggested was making an "developer" AI, that can do everything a developer does and thus understand the repercussions of merges
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04:14<Rubidium>once he has made such an AI, I can easily instruct the AI to make a binary version of it
04:14<andythenorth>it does sound like a good solution
04:14<andythenorth>I just forsee a meta problem
04:14<andythenorth>the AI will need mods
04:15<andythenorth>can it mod itself?
04:15<@Alberth>run an ai to setup the ai?
04:16<@Alberth>or better, add the ai to openttd itself, then it's part of the "developer understanding"
04:16<Rubidium>andythenorth: ofcourse it can modify itself, after all it's a normal developer and if a normal developer can create the AI, then to be a normal developer it must be able to create a new one or adapt the current one
04:19<andythenorth>Alberth: so how about a buy menu patch that simply shows all available vehicles with all available refits, pre-fitted?
04:19<andythenorth>there would be newgrf shenanigans to deal with :p
04:20<andythenorth>and it would be a *very* large buy menu
04:20<andythenorth>thousands of vehicles
04:20<@Alberth>that's one of the experiments I aim to do
04:20<@Alberth>iirc there are other buy menu wishes, where you can drop unwanted parts
04:21<@Alberth>I have to collect those
04:21<@Alberth>and see what's useful
04:22<@Alberth>perhaps large buy menus is not so bad, and newgrf authors will stop adding insane number of vehicles :p
04:22<@Alberth>(unlikely to happen :) )
04:29<andythenorth>what's the smallest useful capacity for an RV?
04:29<andythenorth>I have to give horse carts something
04:29<andythenorth>10t, 15t, 20t?
04:30<andythenorth>RL upper limit is 5t-8t, but meh
04:30<@Alberth>how's industry production?
04:31<andythenorth>out of my control (somewhat) :)
04:31<andythenorth>unless you provide me with a private newgrf spec :P
04:31<andythenorth>to modify other people's choices on the fly :P
04:31*Alberth gives andy an exclusive set of newgrf specs
04:32<@Alberth>trying to be compatible with everybody is not a good choice, I think
04:32<andythenorth>mostly I am trying to be compatible with myself :)(
04:32<andythenorth>hmm....ship set (x) train set (x) industry set (x) station set (x) RV set (x)
04:33<andythenorth>and pikka has a good plane set
04:36<@Alberth>perhaps you should look at how little you can transport and still run a profit?
04:37<@Alberth>ie the idea that you can transport everything with horses is not very useful
04:39<andythenorth>you can't do it
04:39<andythenorth>you need trains or trams
04:40<andythenorth>road transport is crappy IRL before about 1920
04:44<@Alberth>is RL of any importance?
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04:45<andythenorth>not the most, but it's where I go for inspiration :)
04:46<andythenorth>Dan and me are having more fun with the things that didn't work IRL: protototypes, one-offs, experiments :)
04:48<@Alberth>ok :)
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04:56<@Alberth>oh, the regearing idea pops up again :)
05:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth, wrt buy menu: it could offer a two-phase buy menu. Click on vehicle could show available refits
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05:29<@Alberth>I was thinking to make it a tree thingie
05:30<andythenorth>trees can be a bit fiddly foddly
05:30<andythenorth>but they work for our small screen size requirement I guess
05:30<andythenorth>they are very compact :)
05:30<@Alberth>yeah, but it's hard to understand if it works without actually trying it
05:31<andythenorth>or we could just talk about it for months instead :D
05:32<@Alberth>given my RL stuff, I doubt it gets implemented any sooner than months :)
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05:37*andythenorth should eat own dogfood and put some trucks in
05:37<andythenorth>instead of talking about it
05:38<@Alberth>depends on how badly you want to make progress :)
05:38<andythenorth>I'd rather it was good than done
05:39<andythenorth>I don't have that attitude consistently
05:39<andythenorth>but we already have a well-liked truck set, there's no point making a worse one
05:39<@Alberth>even for 'good' you do need to make experiments and decide stuff at some point
05:40<andythenorth>I shall do important first steps
05:40<andythenorth>like setting up shell colours for this project :P
05:41<Xaroth|Work>very important indeed
05:42<andythenorth>not exactly what I had in mind
05:42<andythenorth>but hours of fun
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08:00<Wolf01>hi hi
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08:16<Flygon>I feel weird, having a game with a crapload of ships being actively used
08:16<Flygon>Is it strange to feel so confused having such active ship use?
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08:25<andythenorth>yeah but no but
08:26<__ln__>an important question arised #elsewhere: how did Smaug transport all that gold to the mountain?
08:26<andythenorth>he cheated
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08:27<andythenorth>he let the dwarves move it there first
08:27<andythenorth>epsiode 1 explains that, but is quite painfully boring to watch
08:27<andythenorth>episode 2 is a bit better
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08:39<__ln__>oh, good, it's realistic then
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09:03<Flygon>andythenorth: Depends on the game, I take it
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09:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26186 trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (2013-12-30 14:46:24 UTC)
09:46<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Don't check for equality of MAC_OS_X_VERSION_MAX_ALLOWED.
09:50<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26187 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2013-12-30 14:50:09 UTC)
09:50<@DorpsGek>-Fix: allow refitting at station if cargo has already been reserved.
09:50<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26188 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2013-12-30 14:50:45 UTC)
09:50<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Move station refitting to a separate function.
10:22<Xaroth|Work>__ln__: The dwarves used to live in Erebor for quite a while, but their king was a bit of a greedy bastard
10:22<Xaroth|Work>and kept collecting gold
10:22<Xaroth|Work>the entire mountain is filled with gold veins as well
10:22<Xaroth|Work>.. until Smaug decided to claim it all
10:22<Xaroth|Work>most of it is explained in the first 15 minutes of the hobbit part 1
10:23<Guest1854>if you haven't zoned out by then
10:23<Xaroth|Work>pretty much
10:27<LordAro>the first 15 mins were fine
10:27<LordAro>it was the rest of the film which you could say dragged a bit
10:28<Xaroth|Work>this movie could have been done in 2 parts, 3 is just too much
10:28<Xaroth|Work>especially 3x 2.5 hour movies
10:30<__ln__>extended cuts are being released a year after, as with lotr
10:31<Xaroth|Work>even longer \o/
10:31<__ln__>yeah \o/
10:31<Guest1854>oh good
10:31<Guest1854>eh, where did my nick go? :P
10:32<Xaroth|Work>there's a clone of you
10:32<Xaroth|Work>you probably opened your client twice :P
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10:33<andythenorth>yeah, some other mac was open
10:33<andythenorth>urgh, my eyes have now adjusted to retina screens
10:34<andythenorth>the matrix on standard screens looks really weird
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11:07<Flygon>andythenorth: Could be worse
11:07<andythenorth>funny how things change :(
11:08<andythenorth>the retina screen is horrible
11:08<Flygon>Could be going between retina, standard LCD, low-res LCD, and both high res great dot-pitch and el standardo SD CRT all in the same small house :p
11:08<andythenorth>but I couldn't go back :P
11:08<andythenorth>the old one looks like a cheap LCD TV now
11:08<Flygon>I really gotta get my SD Trinitron replaced with a Sony PVM
11:08<Flygon>But 27in ones are a pain to find, especially in Australia
11:08<Flygon>Speaking of which
11:08<Flygon>It's 3:07AM. I gotta sleep 90 minutes ago
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12:54<andythenorth>anybody care to test if they get Bulk Terminals in FIRS at map gen?
12:54<andythenorth>needs Heart of Darkness economy, in 1.3.0
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13:34<@Alberth>let's see
13:35<@Alberth>andythenorth: I have a version labeled 2013-12-16, is that a good one?
13:36<andythenorth>it's not the tagged release
13:36<andythenorth>but is probably valid
13:37<@Alberth>ok, downloaded the release
13:38<@Alberth>hmm, it's not in the industry list
13:38<@Alberth>what cargo does it use?
13:39<@Alberth>oh, wrong parameter perhaps?
13:40<@Alberth>indeed, note to self: when upgrading the firs, reselect the economy :p
13:42<@Alberth>andythenorth: works, on first try, but with a lot of water
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26189 /trunk/src/lang (indonesian.txt korean.txt) (2013-12-30 18:45:13 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 33 changes by abdu354
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 5 changes by telk5093
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13:46<andythenorth>Alberth: my brain thinks there is a better way to do params...
13:46<andythenorth>maybe just by renaming them
13:47<andythenorth>or by providing an instant view on them when you highlight a newgrf
13:49<@Alberth>with 256x256, hilly, low industries, and very low sea, chance is between 30-50% to get a bulk terminal
13:50<@Alberth>temperate climate btw
13:50<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps try tropical?
13:52<@Alberth>that has a much lower chance
13:52<@Alberth>I tried 5 times or so, and no bulk terminal
13:54<@Alberth>ah, the 7th time it succeeded
14:02<@Alberth>andythenorth: something specific you want tested?
14:03<andythenorth>^ that :)
14:04<andythenorth>I wonder if I have some kind of 'try extra hard to build' patch locally :P
14:04<andythenorth>5 random newgames, tropic 256x256, low water
14:04<andythenorth>1 bulk terminal every time
14:06<andythenorth>yeah 20 games, 4 failures
14:06<andythenorth>so about 1 in 5 fail for me
14:15<@Alberth>I have very low water
14:17<andythenorth>I have 'low'
14:18<andythenorth>yeah, very low, not going to work :)
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16:00<andythenorth>so I probably need to make a new layout for that industry?
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16:04<@Alberth>that would be one option
16:05<@Alberth>alternatively, you can explain that a colonial world needs ample amounts of water for ships
16:05<@Alberth>too bad you cannot fail with an error if you cannot build a bulk terminal
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16:10<andythenorth>I probably could raise an error
16:11<andythenorth>maybe not during map gen though
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 31 00:01:00 2013