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#openttd IRC Logs for 2013-12-31

---Logopened Tue Dec 31 00:01:00 2013
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02:50<George>small howto NML question. what is the right way to prevent wrong sprite error when xussr set is loaded with other railway set, providing more than 16 rail types in total?
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03:00<ggsklg>Any one?
03:02<ggsklg>Why share order can only apply to 2-3 vehicles. is it a bug?
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03:03<@Terkhen>why do you say that it can only apply to 2-3 vehicles? do you encounter any error when trying to share them between more vehicles?
03:04<@Terkhen>which one?
03:04<ggsklg>i tried to make 5-6 vehicles share the same order, but after 1-2 vehicles that i shared the order it just start to replace them
03:05<ggsklg>so for exp: 1 plane is go to A go to B, share to plane 2, 3, then on plane 4 plane 2 dosnt share order anymore but plane 4 does
03:06<ggsklg>I'm using the night ver, with FIRS and Japanese mods, but that happend to me on 1.3.3 too
03:08<@Terkhen>I just tried to share orders using diferent methods (cloning the vehicle you want to share orders with while pressing control and creating a vehicle with empty orders and using shift click on an existing vehicle to share orders with it)
03:08<@Terkhen>both of them work fine and orders are shared between all vehicles; I think that you are doing something wrong
03:09<@Terkhen>can you tell me how are you sharing orders?
03:09<ggsklg>oh, didnt know you can do it with shift.
03:09<ggsklg>I'm just using the button 'share orders" in the order menu
03:11<@Terkhen>it works correctly for me too on a recent nightly, so I don't know why it is going wrong for you...
03:12<@Terkhen>the only thing I can think of is that you are trying to share orders that the plane cannot follow because the destination airports are too far away, but since it's been a while since I played I don't know how those distance limitations work
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03:13<ggsklg>dosnt make sense
03:13<ggsklg>Maybe i'm doin something wrong
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03:14<ggsklg>any shorcut to share order between exisitin vehicles?
03:14<@Terkhen>open orders window and shift+click on the vehicle you want to share orders with
03:16<ggsklg>nope. dosnt work
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03:20<Rubidium>try ctrl instead of shift
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03:21<ggsklg>tried it. it stop/start the train
03:21<Rubidium>open order window, click on the goto button, then ctrl-click the other vehicle
03:22<Rubidium>however... the vehicle that has the order window open will be the one taking the orders of the vehicle you share with
03:23<ggsklg>ya, works. but not that usefull, just one click away from click on share order and than the vehicle
03:23<Rubidium>which means that if the vehicle with the order window is open, it will first unshare its orders and then share it with the newly clicked vehicle (which is the only way you might be able to reproduce what you see)
03:25<George>Rubidium: Could you upload to bananas or configure bananas to allow me to upload file myself?
03:25<ggsklg>now i understand
03:25<ggsklg>so what i need to do - click plane 1, share order with 2, click on plane 2 share order with 3 and so on...
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03:26<Rubidium>ggsklg: no, click plane 2, share with 1, click plane 3, share with 2 (or 1)
03:28<Rubidium>George: should work now, I think
03:28<George>Rubidium: Thank you, I'll try
03:29<ggsklg>Rubidium - thanks
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03:47<andythenorth>o/ Terkhen
03:47<andythenorth>been a while :)
03:57<@Terkhen>I'm usually always around, I just don't talk much :)
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04:03<@planetmaker>George, do you use a railtype translation table in xussr? It's used to define a cascade of fallback types. And use code like shown in the section "railtype IDs":
04:03<@planetmaker>afaik that should do the trick
04:08<George>Is it what you mean?
04:08<@planetmaker>that's a railtype table, yes. But it defines no faillback types should your own types not be available
04:09<@planetmaker>but that's actually ok. Might only result in vehicles not being available
04:10<George>what do you suggest to change this to?
04:11<@planetmaker>To get rid of your sprite error the code on the website I linked above should be needed
04:13<@planetmaker>a railtype table could look similar to:
04:14<@planetmaker>but I can't exactly make a suggestion as I know neither the vehicles nor the used railtypes in xussrset sufficiently in order to give good fallback types
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04:33<George>that should be easy
04:34<George>RLA1, RLA2, RLA3 are RAIL
04:34<George>ERA1, ERA2, ERA3, ERD1, ERD2, ERD3, ER2S are ELRL
04:35<George>in case there is AC/DC diff then
04:35<George>ERA1, ERA2, ERA3 are AC
04:35<George>ERD1, ERD2, ERD3 are DC
04:35<George>ER2S is combo
04:36<@planetmaker>did you ever look at ?
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04:37<@planetmaker>using that scheme might help compatibility in general a lot, I'd think
04:37<George>I'll have a look
04:38<andythenorth>anybody want to make a railtype set to match IH? o_O
04:38<@planetmaker>well, of course it won't magically solve any issues. But would make it possibly easier to see which other types would match :)
04:38<andythenorth>no sprite drawing needed, that can be done later
04:40<@planetmaker>hm... I would need to take a look at what it offers
04:41<@planetmaker>next year :P
04:41<andythenorth>dunno if I can wait that long
04:41<@planetmaker>it's tough, I know
04:43<@planetmaker>George, does any of your vehicles actually use RAIL or ELRL?
04:43<@planetmaker>and how do RLA1, RLA2, RLA3 differ?
04:44<George>A B C
04:45<George>None uses default type
04:46<@planetmaker>then I don't understand why RAIL and ELRL are in your railtype table :)
04:48<George>they should be removed?
04:49<@planetmaker>RLA1: [SAEN, RAIL]
04:49<@planetmaker>yes, the RTT should only define the types used by your vehicles
04:49<@planetmaker>RLA1: [SAEN, RAIL]
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04:49<@planetmaker>and rename your *railtype* RLA1 to SAEN
04:49<@planetmaker>but keep vehicles using RLA1
04:50<@planetmaker>RLA2: [SBEN, RAIL]
04:50<@planetmaker>RLA3: [SCEN, RAIL]
04:51<@planetmaker>how do the ERAx and ERDx differ?
04:51<George>AC | DC
04:52<George>Does S means 1435 mm?
04:52<@planetmaker>standard gauge. whatever that is :)
04:52<George>We use 1520, so that should be B?
04:52<@planetmaker>Russia uses broad?
04:53<@planetmaker>though, are your tracks actually wider and do your vehicles show that in pixels?
04:53<George>I do not know how much is "broad" in mm
04:54<George>In our scale it is wider, than 1435. But other sets use different scale
04:58<George>Axle load class [**X*] I suppose *3 should be not E
04:59<@planetmaker>E means heavy load
05:00<@planetmaker>i.e. disregarding that
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05:02<George>RLA1 = BAEN
05:02<George>RLA2 = BBEN
05:02<George>RLA3 = BCCN
05:02<George>ERA1 = BAEA
05:02<George>ERA2 = BBEA
05:02<George>ERA3 = BCCA
05:02<George>ERD1 = BAED
05:02<George>ERD2 = BBED
05:02<George>ERD3 = BCCD
05:03<George>and what to do with
05:03<George>ER2S = BBE?
05:03<George>It is AC+DC
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05:03<George>(a line, where AC | DC is seceted according to a train, that uses it)
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05:04<@planetmaker>not sure about the latter
05:04<@planetmaker>why reduce the axle load for the fastest track type
05:05<George>Heavy trains may destroy a very expencive line?
05:05<@planetmaker>they may also destroy a cheap line
05:06<George>but it would cost less to repair
05:06<@planetmaker>or are the foundations for your high speed tracks less robust etc?
05:06<@planetmaker>i.e. the fast tracks build to other standards?
05:07<George>No, I suppose they are strong enough
05:07<@planetmaker>worse standards
05:07<andythenorth> moin Alberth
05:07<@planetmaker>then... it should be able to carry the same weight and have the same axle load class, I'd recon
05:07<@Alberth>moin andy, planet maker
05:07<@planetmaker>heya albert h :)
05:08<andythenorth>we should also consider super-elevation, depth of ballast, and whether rail is welded or jointed :)
05:08<@Alberth>oh, I forgot ge0rge, morning to you as well
05:08<@peter1138>Damn it, on Windows I can use my analogue and s/pdif outputs independently. With PulseAudio, I can only use one or the other :-(
05:08<andythenorth>and the amount of time since last maintenance
05:08<George>Technically yes, but I never heard lines for express trains are used for heavy cargo trains
05:08<@planetmaker>totally, andythenorth ;)
05:08<George>I have to think about it
05:09<@planetmaker>George, it's about technically possible
05:09<@planetmaker>not about what is done
05:09<andythenorth>George: don't think too hard, the railtype scheme is overkill :D
05:09<@planetmaker>what is done should be left to the player
05:10<George>Sorry, I have to go, come back later
05:10<andythenorth>so new company colour GUI?
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05:10<George>Happy new year to all!
05:10<@planetmaker>same to you, George :)
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05:11<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, it's somewhat overkill. But then, you know, number of standards ;)
05:11<@planetmaker>so I try to not make it worse with each new rail set :P
05:12<@planetmaker>it's disgusting as it is with the existing plethora of railtypes where most basically mean the same thing
05:12<@planetmaker>Personally I totally prefer games with less railtypes
05:13<andythenorth>I'm trying to limit IH to 5 or so per game
05:14<@planetmaker>that's already man :)
05:14<andythenorth>rail, elrail, maglev forces a minimum of 3
05:14<@planetmaker>to me different track types don't add to gameplay other than visual
05:14<@planetmaker>yes, and those 3 suffice for me :)
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05:15<@planetmaker>if I have to choose between two somewhat equivalent ones, I choose the one which supports most vehicle types
05:16<andythenorth>the IH ones are mostly exclusive sets
05:16<andythenorth>except for electrified [type]
05:16<andythenorth>narrow guage, metro, rail, maglev are incompatible
05:17<@planetmaker>it totally should introduce dual-tracked or tripple-tracked tracks which combine narrow, standard and metro tracks :D
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05:17<andythenorth>planetmaker: I considered that :P
05:17<@planetmaker>(don't) :)
05:18<Wolf01>hello o/
05:18<@planetmaker>hey Wolf0 1
05:18<andythenorth>I rejected it :)
05:18<@Alberth>moin Wolf01
05:18<andythenorth>unless we do a roster for a country where that happens a lot, like India
05:20<andythenorth>so who has the company colour gui open right now? o_O
05:22<@Alberth>people playing the 2cc set?
05:23<@Alberth>you'd hope it has better features than its name suggests :)
05:24<@planetmaker>he :)
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06:21<Flygon>planetmaker: Triple gauge was a disaster here
06:22<Flygon>1435mm, 1600mm, and 1067mm (South Australia)
06:22<Flygon>1435+1600mm imposes 80km/h max on the BG line...
06:22<Flygon>Now if all our HST's weren't BG...
06:23<George>planetmaker: I've changed table to and now compilation fails
06:25<George>what am doing wrong?
06:27<@Alberth>you broke nml :)
06:28<@Alberth>ie it's a bug in the nml compiler
06:28<MNIM>heh. AC/DC on the radio.
06:29<@Alberth>nah, radiohead in the cd player :)
06:29<Virtual>I'm listening to AC/DC now
06:31<George>Alberth: And how to fix it?
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06:32<@Alberth>mostly by fixing the nml compiler
06:32<MNIM>Virtual: Top2000, eh?
06:32<George>I can't do it
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06:37<@Alberth>can you make a small example?
06:38<@Alberth>ie I need to reproduce the error here
06:38<@Alberth>preferably with as little code as possible
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06:43<@Alberth>I don't have your version here, and if r1278 is the real nml revision, it is very old
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06:43<George>I'm looking for latest version now
06:43<@Alberth>ie (number cbddf81837f4 doesn't exist in the repository of nml
06:45<@Alberth>the line does look to be able to generate that error
06:51<@planetmaker>maybe somewhere the label is used w/o quotes where it needs to be used with quotes.
06:51<@planetmaker>there's no railtype label anywhere which does start with a number, is there?
06:53<@planetmaker>but yeah, first try with current NML. About 50% more commits have been made since the version you use(d), George
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07:00<George>I hve not change anything since xUSSR set 0.2 execpt railtypetable
07:04<@Alberth>what should be changed relative to xussrset r1278 ?
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07:07<George>one file
07:07<George>from to
07:09<George>changing it back restores compilation
07:13<@planetmaker>George, with just that change and current xussr in the repo, I get something different: nmlc ERROR: "src/dummy/dummy.pnml", line 31: Unrecognized identifier 'RAIL' encountered
07:14<@Alberth>me too
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07:20<@planetmaker>that might be expected as you don't define a RAIL anymore in the railtype table - but if the 'dummy' uses it, it will fail
07:20<George>I compile under win, may it be the reason?
07:22<Xaroth|Work>more likely that you use an outdated nmlc version
07:22<@Alberth>5100 is the latest nightly
07:23<@Alberth>I just tried that one, and it gives also the error of unrecognized identifier
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07:25<@Alberth>could you insert before line 40 print type(value), repr(value) ?
07:26<George>insert where?
07:27<Xaroth|Work>under the def
07:28<George>I do not have such file in the NML folder
07:28<@Alberth>in windows, its nml\expression\
07:29<@planetmaker>Alberth, Xaroth : the windows version is an exe file created by throwing cxfreeze onto the python
07:29<@planetmaker>so it might not have all that stuff there. Not sure
07:29<Xaroth|Work>meh :P
07:29<@Alberth>yeah, looks like it, only an .exe
07:34<George>may be you could compile a special exe for me so I could test?
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07:40<George>Alberth: I've created the smallest GRF that fails. Here it is
07:45<@Alberth>after adding a language file, it compiles here
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07:46<George>but not here :(
07:46<George>With error specified above
07:47<@Alberth>I believe you, but if I cannot reproduce it, it's very difficult to understand why it doesn't produce that error
07:47<@Alberth>ie the "unrecognized identifier" error
07:48<@Alberth>you could try switching to the python source code version, but that needs installing python etc etc, which is also not that simple
07:48<@Alberth>and of course that will not help if the error is not in the conversion of python to the .exe file
07:49<@Alberth>yeah I know, but the problem is much earlier
07:50<@Alberth>namely at the point where it decides not to give an "unrecognized identifier" error
07:50<George>I think the first step would be to provide an exe file for me that would generate more log information
07:53<Xaroth|Work>I doubt it's anything to do with an exe version requiring more log information, and more to do with the exe file you have being hugely out-of-date
07:54<@Alberth>Xaroth|Work: 5100 is the latest nightly
07:54<Xaroth|Work>Alberth: and his .exe version is 5100?
07:54<@Alberth>that message comes from the exe, doesn't it?
07:55<Xaroth|Work>that depends on what kind of weird magic cx_freeze uses
07:55<Xaroth|Work>it wouldn't be the first time that it cocked up on something
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07:57<@Alberth>to decide that, you need to run the same input on the pure python nml version, and see what it does
07:57<Eddi|zuHause><George> (a line, where AC | DC is seceted according to a train, that uses it) <-- AC should be ***A, DC ***D and both ***E, and one or both of ***A and ***D should have ***E and ELRL as fallback, should a trackset which doesn't model multiple power types be loaded
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08:05<George>So what changes do i need to make in railtypetable.pnml?
08:06<@planetmaker>George, you indeed verified that your bat(ch) file uses nml v5100, yes?
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08:17<@planetmaker>Alberth, you meant a diff like ?
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>ERA1: [BAEA, SAEA, ELRL], <-- you should put BAEE and SAEE as fallbacks in here as well
08:17<@Alberth>planetmaker: no, below the 'def'
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>ER2S: [BBEE, SBEE, ELRL] <-- and this should be *A** since you don't have any speed distinction here
08:18<@Alberth>ie print the value of the argument
08:18<@Alberth>which is not a string or buffer, but what is it?
08:18<@Alberth>perhaps also find the place where the identifier error is decided
08:19<@planetmaker>George, has a hacked version with Alberth's suggested debug line
08:20<ZxBiohazardZx>Thought of the day: Rhinos are just fat Unicorns.....
08:20<@planetmaker>However, I've to leave for the rest of the year, so I wish you all a nice NewYear's eve
08:20<@planetmaker>and a happy new year
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>George: the distinction for *A**/*B**/*C** should probably not be in the translation table at all, since you should define trains for *A** only, the *B** and *C** should be in the trackset only, without the vehicle set being aware of them
08:21<@planetmaker>Alberth, if you want to continue today, you could test stuff directly on the build server (probably easiest way to get the exes)
08:21<@planetmaker>would you like that kind of access?
08:21<@Alberth>not really, I am busy with other things
08:22<@planetmaker>fair enough :)
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08:22<@Alberth>and building dozen of exes with just 1 line extra or so is not the most useful way to find what's wrong
08:23<@planetmaker> @ George
08:23<@planetmaker>nah, likely right. But would allow to compile versions without commit or so :) Very hacky :D
08:23<@planetmaker>operating on jenkin's checkout w/o using jenkins ;)
08:24<@Alberth>hmm, using nml r1278 gives an error on the language file
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>George: for reference, this is my translation table:
08:26<@planetmaker>have a good time and see you next year :)
08:26<@Alberth>you too, planet maker
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08:31<George> is the same as 5100 - is that intended?]
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth, planetmaker: the first thing i ever do when getting "internal error" is disable the wrapper that catches the error, so i can actually see the backtrace, and can inspect it with pdb
08:32<@Alberth>doesn't -s do the same?
08:33<@Alberth>but the problem in this case is that it works here, no stack dump to look at and inspect
08:34<@Alberth>even with the stack-dump of george, the only thing you can conclude is that somewhere higher in the hierarchy you're not supposed to get at that line
08:34<@Alberth>but that doesn't tell me why the test fails
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08:37<George> @ George - the zip is different but files inside are the same as in 5100
08:38<George>Sorry, I have to go, let us return back to it in 2014-th
08:39<George>P.S. Eddi|zuHause - could you explain me how should that work (the *B** and *C** should be in the trackset only, without the vehicle set being aware of them)
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08:42<@Alberth>George: ok, have a good time, see you next year again
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08:54<Flygon>I just learned something new
08:55<Flygon>Towns complain, even when noise levels are off, if you try to build a third airport
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08:55<Eddi|zuHause>"max 2 airports" was the behaviour of the original game
08:56<Flygon>It's not possible to uncap that at all?
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>you can enable noise levels, but set all levels to 0
08:56<Flygon>I have a Metro line that has 3 awkwardly named terminuses, hahaha
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>or there's a (hidden) setting that you can tweak
08:56<Flygon>I assume that bypasses the 2 airport cap?
08:57<Flygon>x3 I'll see if I hit capacity constraints
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>which scales the allowed noise per population
08:57<Flygon>Thank you :)
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08:59<Eddi|zuHause>George: that depends on what you try to achieve. the speed of a vehicle doesn't limit which tracks it can use (unless you want to forbid slow vehicles travelling on highspeed rail, which i don't think is a great idea)
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>George: so defining all vehicles for *A** should be sufficient
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>George: unless you want to use the vehicle availablility to make the track types available, too
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>but that approach has problems with compatibility between track sets
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09:03<Flygon>Annnnd FRISS just megaderped
09:03<Flygon>Could build the 140km/h electrified track...
09:04<Flygon>Annnnnnd now I can't
09:05<George>Eddi|zuHause: I specify track availability by year, not by train available
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>George: yes, that's why the vehicle set doesn't care at all
09:06<George>I try achive the following: high speed tracks costs more
09:06<George>so a player should choose the right track and the right train
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09:09<andythenorth>Alberth: cleanest way to test if a variable is an int or a tuple?
09:09<andythenorth>(could be either)
09:10<@Alberth>don't get in that situation
09:10<andythenorth>well I'm not yet :P
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>George: the railtype translation table is for the vehicle set only, the trackset has no use for it (similar to how the cargo translation table has no use for the industry set).
09:10<andythenorth>I was planning to be though
09:11<@Alberth>the idea is that you know what you get at all times
09:11<andythenorth>ok I'll solve it the easy way :P
09:11<andythenorth>it's always a tuple
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>George: as such, the vehicle set can ignore all additional track types that it doesn't directly define vehicles for
09:11<andythenorth>lots of parentheses will now appear in my code :)
09:12<@Alberth>lots of commas, I think :p
09:12<@Alberth>ie (5) and 5 are both integers
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09:12<George>Eddi|zuHause: And what should be changed in the current code of xussr train set?
09:12<andythenorth>yes, I recall that issue
09:12<andythenorth>doesn't have to be a tuple
09:12<andythenorth>could be a list
09:13<@Alberth>(5,) is a 1-tuple
09:13<@Alberth>and (,) a 0-tuple :p
09:13<andythenorth>ugly commas
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>George: just leave out all *B** and *C** tracktypes, only use *A**
09:13<andythenorth>[1] will do
09:13<@Alberth>tuple(5) should work too :)
09:13<andythenorth>worse :)
09:13<George>Eddi|zuHause: I do not have yet
09:14<George>this is the change that planetmaker suggested
09:15<Eddi|zuHause> <-- i'm talking about this change
09:16<andythenorth>wonder how my compile will explode :P
09:17<andythenorth>oh like that :P
09:18<George>Eddi|zuHause: And how do you suggest to change it?
09:18<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> Alberth: cleanest way to test if a variable is an int or a tuple? <-- "try: iter(blah) catch: it's an integer"
09:18<@Alberth>or x[0]
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>George: don't make the 1/2/3 distinction, only have "RL", "ELA", "ELD" and "ELS" [the last one only if you want to make dual-power engines]
09:21<George>what do you mean "do not make"? And what should I do?
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09:24<Eddi|zuHause>i mean like this:
09:27<George>compilation fails. The same way as above
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>George: that error must be windows specific, i can't reproduce it
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11:35<Virtual>Don't forget that the New Year is 2013S if you have an iPhone! ;)
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12:07<Wolf01>good bye, I'll return in the next year ;)
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12:36<Xaroth|Work>that.. was random o_O
12:40<Rubidium>it doesn't look random to me
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26190 trunk/src/lang/indonesian.txt (2013-12-31 18:45:07 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>indonesian - 2 changes by abdu354
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14:42<andythenorth>is it 2014 yet?
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>it has been 20:14 yet
14:47<__ln__>just over a year until we'll have flying cars and hoverboards
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>well we do have cars that know the way, talk to you, keep on the lane autonomously and park automatically
14:52<__ln__>but no mr. fusion
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>but way more important about that movie is that for people who watch it now for the first time, the "present" of 1985 is about as far in the past as the "past" of 1955 was when the movie was released
14:58<__ln__>that is indeed a bit alarming
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>i wonder why they didn't attempt a remake of that movie yet
15:01<__ln__>an interesting idea, especially what years would they choose for past, future, and now.
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18:00<HerzogDeXtEr>Happy New Year
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18:04<__ln__>why does everyone say that one hour late
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18:07<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26191 trunk/changelog.txt (2013-12-31 23:07:10 UTC)
18:07<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26177): typo
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18:09<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26192 /trunk/src (59 files in 3 dirs) (2013-12-31 23:08:55 UTC)
18:09<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r24878): off-by-one error ;)
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>... or maybe 8759 hours early?
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22:24<Sjr>What is "CargoDist"
22:28<Japa>Sjr, it's a mod that made it into the main game, that makes passengers and other cargo actually have a destination in mind when they set out, and are willing to swap whatever trains they need to to get there.
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23:08<Flygon>I must have too many boats
23:08<Flygon>The game's lagging
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 01 00:00:02 2014