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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-01-08

---Logopened Wed Jan 08 00:00:15 2014
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03:24<dihedral>greetings - and a (belated) happy new year
03:24<Xaroth|Work>you too dih
03:25<dihedral>yes __ln__
03:25<__ln__>not that much belated then
03:25<dihedral>you seem to have aged ;-)
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04:03<@planetmaker>happy new year to you, too, dihedral :)
04:04<dihedral>hey pm :-)
04:04<dihedral>how are you?
04:04<@planetmaker>fine, thanks :) I hope, you, too?
04:04<V453000>\o/ happy stuff dih
04:15<NGC3982>Oculust Rift sounds like a spell in Final Fantasy.
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04:29<dihedral>everything is great here, just loads of work
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04:31<peter1139>This coffee smells of burned-out scalextric motors
04:33<NGC3982>That sounds fantastic.
04:33<peter1139>I'm gonna tip it :S
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06:35<Burty>Are people all dead on the forums these days? i'm sure they used to be really active in the OTTD section
06:36<Xaroth|Work>probably at work
06:36<@planetmaker>forums are to my experience still quite lively
06:37<Flygon>Ah, that reminds me
06:38<@planetmaker>but I don't get why you make another posting in the suggestions forum, Burty
06:38<Flygon>I 100% forgot to reopen the forums tab
06:38<Flygon>I always liked seeing people screenshot their networks
06:38<Flygon>But then I look at my netowkr
06:38<@planetmaker>on the same topic as you started in the development one
06:38<Flygon>And I think "What a piece of junk"
06:38<Flygon>But then I realize
06:38<Flygon>People might think of their networks the same way?
06:38<Flygon>Really, it's confusing
06:38<@planetmaker>depends on what you aim for, Flygon :)
06:38<Flygon>The point is
06:39<Flygon>The Thunderbirds theme is stuck in my head
06:39<Flygon>And whoever was handling the strings was doing them really well
06:39<Flygon>planetmaker: Given I'm doing that Europe scenario the German made, people would be complaining at the convoluted urban sprawl Helsinki became
06:40<Flygon>OTTD really needs slower growth settings than "Slow", but not quite "None" @_@
06:40<Burty>planetmaker I made one in the suggestions forum to get more of a discussion going on "more" to do with the shares and try to keep the dev one more code/patch related. Also I know some players tend to look at the Suggestions more than development so was hoping that I'd get player ideas
06:40<Flygon>Even better, I should become unlazy and learn to do something about that personally :P
06:48<Flygon>I'm gonna ask a dumb question
06:48<Flygon>Does the weight factor for freight affect passengers too?
06:54<Burty>I would believe (in theory) it should
06:54<Pinkbeast>Flygon: No. (90% sure).
06:55<@planetmaker>I think it does not. But I only play with that on extremely rare occasions
06:55<Flygon>There's no way to universally slow down the acceleration of the trains then?
06:55<Flygon>Because it's a tad jarring seeing DMU's hitting their top speed while segments are still inside the station
06:56<Burty>This might sound daft: is it best to put my patch on both FS and TT net? If(FS == true) shall I add/revive TheJoshs old FS ticket with the updated patch?
06:56<Pinkbeast>Flygon: Time and distance scales in OTTD are a Bit Odd but you could use NuTracks and build stations from low speed tracks.
06:57<Flygon>Yeah, I am aware of the scales
06:57<Flygon>The game I'm in, it's a bit late to pull such shenanigans, anyway (using FRISS)... that, and with some of the station layouts I have
06:57<Flygon>The pathfinder would get extremely confused if there was multiple track speeds
06:57<Flygon>Soooo... yeah
06:58<Flygon>Either way, thanks for the help
06:58<Flygon>It'd be neat if there was a setting to universally slow down acceleration (without affecting hill climbing ability), either way :)
06:58<Pinkbeast>I don't believe there is (and the freight multiplier wouldn't do it because pax are a tiny proportion of train weight).
06:59<Flygon>(obviously trains that have low tractive effort that hit a hill at low speed would be completely screwed if they haven't accelerated fast enough compared to a 'normal' game, but... you get my point)
06:59<Flygon>Freight multiplier also affects hill climbing ability
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07:00<Pinkbeast>Flygon: I'm just referring back to the question you originally asked. If freight multiplier did affect pax, it wouldn't make a lot of difference.
07:00<Flygon>Oh! Right
07:00<Flygon>I forgot I asked that question >_<"
07:00<Flygon>I have a very single tracked mind, sorry
07:01<Flygon>I have less tracks in my mind than an Australian railway line
07:01<Pinkbeast>Well, pass the staff to another thought, then. :-)
07:01<Flygon>Eh. We abolished staff operation here... last year
07:01<Flygon>On suburban EMU services
07:01<Flygon>...we're a bit behind the times :|
07:01<Pinkbeast>There's still plenty of electronic token operation here, but I don't think any staffs out of preservation.
07:02<Flygon>I meant actual physical staffs
07:02<Flygon>The rest of the network had automatic block systems going on
07:02<Flygon>The Hurstbridge line is just unusual
07:02<Pinkbeast>Ah, "electronic" token has a physical token.
07:03<Flygon>Yeah, we got rid of electronic token before we got rid of staff working
07:04<Flygon>What makes this even more confusing was that the physical staff working remained, even when all the signals became remotely controlled
07:05<Flygon>Optical signalling, mind
07:05<Pinkbeast>Er. For single-line working I hope that having _a_ physical object will remain the case indefinitely.
07:05<Flygon>Yeah, Hurstbridge is single track
07:06<Flygon>I'm expecting it to become double track within 50 years
07:06<Flygon>Dunno about Europe, but in Australia, 50 years is bloody fast
07:06<Flygon>Also, in Australia, bloody is a swear word
07:06<Flygon>Suck it up, ya bloody Brits :D
07:06<Flygon>It ISN'T a swear word
07:06<Flygon>My god, how did I stuff that up
07:06*Flygon cowers in shame
07:09<Pinkbeast>It's barely a swearword here.
07:10<Flygon>...why were those "Where the Bloody Hell Are You" ads controversial, then?
07:11<Pinkbeast>It _is_ one, and "hell" is slightly ruder, and some people will complain about anything.
07:11<Pinkbeast>And... OK, I don't watch TV, but I have no memory of any such controversy.
07:12*Pinkbeast reads. The authorities can be a bit po-faced about that sort of thing.
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26232 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt portuguese.txt) (2014-01-08 18:45:14 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 6 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>portuguese - 1 changes by frosch
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14:01<tommerry11>so what are poeple upto?
14:07<tommerry11>oh boy
14:07<tommerry11>alberth can I have some
14:08*Alberth wizards some magic for tommerry11
14:09<tommerry11>oh damn
14:10<@Alberth>hmm, I totally forgot what I wanted to do this evening
14:11<tommerry11>so I really can't get the hang of collecting newgrfs
14:12<@Alberth>you shouldn't collect them, just download them when needed
14:12<tommerry11>i know
14:12<tommerry11>but like I mean I can't get a set that seem to work well together.
14:13<tommerry11>nieghbours are important is probably my favorite script at the moment
14:13<@Alberth>oh, yeah, combining newgrfs is an art :)
14:13<tommerry11>but certain industries cant be transported without other newgrfs and it just gets messy and ughhhhhh
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14:20<@Alberth>oh, unexpected challenges :p
14:22<V453000>nuts unrealistic train set or ogfx+trains can always transport all cargoes :P
14:32<@Alberth>s/all/all types of/ :)
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14:50<tommerry11>yeah but i dont want to cheat, i just want a working game that isnt default :P
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15:44<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
15:44<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 5 hours, 44 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: * andythenorth back to work :P
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15:51<andythenorth>someone is wrong on the internet
15:51<@Alberth>you call, he appears :)
15:51<@Alberth>o/ andy, and DanMacK
15:51<andythenorth>straw poll
15:52<andythenorth>"kids are getting stupider and less inquisitive": true | false
15:53<@planetmaker>it's going downhill with the youth. Since aristole
15:53<@planetmaker>or was it ptolemaios?
15:53<andythenorth>planetmaker: can you find the quote?
15:53<andythenorth>I think there is one :P
15:54<@planetmaker>yes, at least one :)
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15:59<@planetmaker>I can't decide which :)
16:01<@planetmaker>socrates ^
16:03<andythenorth>thanks :)
16:03<@planetmaker>sadly not the best source. The internet will prove anything ;)
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16:05<@planetmaker>irony is that he was found guilty of corrupting the minds of the youth of athens and of impiety and thus sentenced to death ;)
16:05<andythenorth>I fear I may get into a flame war with lego nerds
16:05<@planetmaker>don't flame them. Shock-frost them ;)
16:06<@planetmaker>then you can easily shovel away the splinters when they fracture
16:07<andythenorth>sounds like Mortal Kombat
16:08<@planetmaker>I likely never played that, unless I played it at a friends place without remembering ;)
16:09<@planetmaker>hm, I broke my system... updated some things too much :P
16:10<@planetmaker>gimp doesn't complain. Just exits gracefully right after start :P
16:10<andythenorth>planetmaker: your linux, or your OS X?
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16:10<andythenorth>no advice in that case :)
16:10<@planetmaker>I shouldn't mix stable, testing and development repos. I knew that :)
16:11*planetmaker considers giving Fedora a shot
16:14<@Alberth>2 releases a year, a release is maintained for one year
16:14<@planetmaker>you use that, do you?
16:15<@Alberth>20MB updates / week or so
16:15<@planetmaker>how nicely do updates work?
16:15<@planetmaker>from one release to the other?
16:15<@Alberth>oh, I tried it a few times, but in the end I always had to start from scratch
16:16<@Alberth> /home at a separate partition, then it's a matter of a few hours
16:16<@planetmaker>Yeah, that anyway :)
16:16<@Alberth>and then some days installing stuff you're missing :p
16:17<frosch123>some days, yes, but scattered over a year :p
16:17<@planetmaker>that's usual anyway... you always install what you miss :)
16:17<@Alberth>not really, just the first two/three weeks or so
16:18<@planetmaker>hm, I always found some packages I need later
16:18<frosch123>anyway, ottd is the most annoying one
16:18<@planetmaker>for whatever reason
16:18<@planetmaker>ottd is pretty quick, though it has a few
16:18<frosch123>i used to have binaries of almost all branches
16:18<@Alberth>you get bleeding edge, so some times stuff just doesn't work for some time
16:18<frosch123>but now they do not start because of from libs
16:19<frosch123>and they all do no longer compile with current compiler
16:19<@planetmaker>ah, yes
16:19<@planetmaker>that you mean
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16:19<andythenorth>so this update stuff isn't a solved problem? :o
16:19<@planetmaker>well, I've a new and big HDD to spoil. So easy to have two systems. One toy, one 'work'
16:19<andythenorth>I thought it was just an Apple issue
16:20<frosch123>andythenorth: usually stuff changes so much that it is not worth migrating
16:20<frosch123>keep /home, do rest from scratch
16:20<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the difference is that you usually just do apt-get install blah
16:20<andythenorth>I have somewhat been given different propaganda by some other people
16:20<frosch123>if you have complicated setups, then put them into a vm
16:20<@planetmaker>or yum install blah
16:20<@planetmaker>which apple doesn't have
16:20<@planetmaker>(unless you use macports or brew or so)
16:20<frosch123>actually the amount of vms i have is skyrocketing
16:21<andythenorth>VMs are for windows :P
16:21<frosch123>so, i would recommend for going for a smaller base system, and more vms for special tasks
16:21<@planetmaker>no(t only)
16:21<andythenorth>anyone using vagrant?
16:21<andythenorth>just out of interest
16:21<frosch123>why should i mess up my main system just to compile firs?
16:21<@planetmaker>he :D
16:21<frosch123>i can just install weird web frameworks in a vm
16:22<andythenorth>I did wonder if we should package some vagrant thing for nml projects
16:22<@planetmaker>I think I'll make one system which is experimental and bleeding edge. And one more stable
16:22<@planetmaker>the first one for stuff which actually needs that hardware support which might or might not work
16:23<@planetmaker>might make sense, andythenorth
16:23<@planetmaker>or distributing a virtualbox image for that purpose
16:24<@planetmaker>ah, it basically uses that...
16:24<andythenorth>it's some tools around virtual appliance stuff
16:25<andythenorth>I don't actually know the benefit
16:25<andythenorth>just that it has a lot of happy users
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16:30<frosch123>hmm, so i should setup the dev-vm using vagrant
16:30<frosch123>instead of a big image :p
16:31<frosch123>anyway, i don't get how vagrant can setup a new vm within minutes
16:31<frosch123>or does that refer to a gbit downstream connection?
16:33<andythenorth>dunno :)
16:33<andythenorth>doesn't specify how many minutes
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16:36<@planetmaker>frosch123, I understand that they mean that you have a base image and only add additional stuff in a vagrant description file.
16:36<@planetmaker>That might then be much easier :)
16:37<frosch123>yeah, just opened the "" file in a browser tab
16:37<frosch123>but it is a disk image :p
16:37<frosch123>@calc 16383*16*63 / 2048
16:37<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 8063.5078125
16:37<@planetmaker>some kind of disk image wrapper it seems
16:38<frosch123>so, they have some preinstalled diskimages of popular distros
16:38<frosch123>and then let you specify a script to install more stuff
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16:39<frosch123>"Added boxes can be re-used by multiple projects. Each project uses a box as an initial image to clone from, and never modifies the actual base image. This means that if you have two projects both using the precise32 box we just added, adding files in one guest machine will have no effect on the other machine."
16:40<andythenorth>I never understood the box terminology
16:40<andythenorth>in my world, boxes are metal and say 'Dell' on them
16:40<@planetmaker>consider 'box' synonymous for VM
16:43<@planetmaker>so basically it would likely work for us, if *we provide a base virtualbox image with the basic openttd and newgrf dev tools. *Add vagrant scripts for particular needs which extend that
16:43<frosch123>looks nice, i think i am going to try that thingie
16:44<frosch123>planetmaker: you would not include the dev tools in the base box
16:44<@planetmaker>Actually providing a basic virtualbox image might suit well, so that devzone users find everything pre-installed
16:44<@planetmaker>maybe not :)
16:44<frosch123>the basebox is fixed, so it does not contain anything you would want to update, like your own tools
16:44<@planetmaker>probably true, yes
16:44<frosch123>so, devzone can have a basebox for vbox, and a vagrant file which installs an up-to-date dev env
16:45<@planetmaker>true. One vagrant file for everything would then do the trick
16:45<@planetmaker>hm... sounds like something to checkout indeed
16:46<@planetmaker>Might ease some support :)
16:49<andythenorth>does it mean developing over an ssh connection?
16:49<andythenorth>might be...interesting :P
16:49<Zuu>IIRC they are based on VirtualBox which means that you can login via X too.
16:49<andythenorth>that was another aspect I didn't understand, so I haven't explore
16:50<andythenorth>explored *
16:50<Zuu>I have a linux VM (in VirtualBox) with graphical login for FreeRCT coding.
16:51<@planetmaker>completely different topic: <-- 0AD has pretty nice terrain textures
16:51<@Alberth>ssh can do X tunneling just fine
16:52<@Alberth>multi-tile terrain? :)
16:53<@planetmaker>been pondering NewGRF options or changes to landscape / terrain for some time, yes
16:54<@planetmaker>but nothing in detail really. This would already be able to enhance existing ground tiles. But variety there... might be nice
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17:00<frosch123>andythenorth: there are shared folders and sshfs
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17:01<andythenorth>oic :)
17:02<andythenorth>oh there's FUSE and such for that
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17:08<andythenorth>bed time
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18:18<Wolf01>'night all
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20:32<grepwood>hello everyone
20:32<grepwood>is there a way of measuring frames drawn per second by openttd?
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21:00<Eddi|zuHause>not built in, i believe
21:04<grepwood>that sux
21:06<Eddi|zuHause>well it would be a very boring display, as it would be 33fps constantly, as long as your cpu can keep up
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21:17<grepwood>depends on where you're deploying openttd
21:19<grepwood>it could help benchmark drivers against this game
21:20<Pinkbeast>... is there any platform on which drawing the display is a significant proportion of the work and likely to take longer than computing the game mechanics?
21:21<Japa_>Pinkbeast, playing on a weak computer connected to a 4k screen
21:21<+glx>all drawing is software based relying on OS or SDL
21:21<Pinkbeast>Japa_: Any non-contrived platform, let us say.
21:23<grepwood>yeah, rpi and ps3
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21:24<+glx>rpi is limited by cpu
21:24<grepwood>because rsx is off limits on linux and next to nobody knows how to install freebsd on it, the gfx is drawn by CPU
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21:25<grepwood>my quake3 port had maybe 0.5 fps even when it used spes for drawing the 3d, and most gl extensions were missing so artifacts ensued
21:25<+glx>basically in openttd all gfx is done via cpu unless the OS uses gpu
21:29<+glx>we use a pure software blitter
21:30<+glx>recently improved to use SSE3 or SSE4 when available
21:35<grepwood>glx that's interesting
21:35<grepwood>does the code detect whether it can use sse3/4 on its own accord? or is it a compile-time variable?
21:35<+glx>well indeed we use many blitters :)
21:40<+glx>we check cpuid at runtime
21:44<+glx>and availability is also checked at compile time
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21:48<grepwood>cool, I like the latter solution
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21:54<grepwood> hue
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22:10<Eddi|zuHause>most people will never use the sse3/4 blitter, because that one is only used when there is a 32bpp base set in use
22:10<Eddi|zuHause>most people will use a 8bpp base set
22:10<+glx>sprite sorter can use SSE4 now too ;)
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---Logclosed Thu Jan 09 00:00:17 2014