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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-01-11

---Logopened Sat Jan 11 00:00:21 2014
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00:49<Flygon>Is it possible to modify a .sav file to uncap the 5000 vehicle limit?
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02:47<andythenorth>this project has a bad structure
02:47*andythenorth hates sorting out filesystem structure
02:49<andythenorth>is planetmaker awake yet? o_O
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03:10<dihedral>good morning
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04:25<andythenorth>planetmaker: I have a file naming puzzle o_O
04:25<@planetmaker>:) bring it on
04:27<Aristide>andythenorth: Only « puzzle » ?
04:28<Aristide>I have a directory named « prout »
04:28<andythenorth>spritesheets are in '/graphics'
04:28<andythenorth>.psd files and such are in '/graphics_sources'
04:29<andythenorth>but I'm adding pixa, with generated spritesheets
04:29<andythenorth>convention is then to make '/graphics' the destination for generated files
04:29<andythenorth>and introduce '/graphics_src' for the initial spritesheets
04:29<andythenorth>this makes '/graphics_sources' ambiguous
04:29<@planetmaker>my solution to that is to have the xcf (gimp) files in gfx-source, and the generated output in src/gfx/blah.gimp.png
04:29<andythenorth>could do that
04:30<@planetmaker>pixa is scripted generation, so generated each time, yes?
04:30<andythenorth>I have an aversion to generating things into srrc
04:30<andythenorth>src *
04:30<andythenorth>yes generated each time
04:30<@planetmaker>true, generating in src might not be ideal
04:30<andythenorth>and make clean would remove the entire graphics dir
04:30<@planetmaker>you could add a new dir called 'build/gfx'
04:30<andythenorth>or something like 'assets' and dump the .psds in there :P
04:31<@planetmaker>keeping them in graphics_sources is fine. Putting any generated stuff in graphics_sources is wrong. As wrong as in src ;)
04:32<@planetmaker>could also called generated_gfx
04:32<andythenorth>nah, goes against the convention for generated lang, generated docs etc
04:32<andythenorth>we agreed *_src
04:33<@planetmaker>err... no, not generated stuff
04:33<@planetmaker>lang_src is your unmodified stuff. generated stuff is in lang
04:33<@planetmaker>so just use gfx then, if you want
04:33<@planetmaker>hm :)
04:34<@planetmaker>(I know I'm not consistent in this naming either, so I might not be a good guide there :D )
04:34<andythenorth>it just helps to check I'm not smoking crack tbh :)
04:34<andythenorth>I'm just going to add 'assets' or something for graphics and sound source files
04:34<andythenorth>they are not commonly used, they just need to live with the project
04:36<andythenorth>'media' :P
04:36<@planetmaker>I dislike 'assets' :D
04:36<@planetmaker>just call it generated then, maybe?
04:36<@planetmaker>otoh, andythenorth, the generated nml is also in src, no?
04:37*andythenorth checks
04:37<andythenorth>that just goes in root
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04:37<@planetmaker>there's only the one nml file generated by gcc (or is there no gcc anymore)?
04:38<andythenorth>there's none in this IH project
04:38<andythenorth>there is in FIRS
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04:39<andythenorth>logically, the photoshop files etc should go in src/ :P
04:39<andythenorth>but we don't do that - maybe because they are big and messy
04:40<@planetmaker>well, they could go in src/gfx or so, yes
04:40<@planetmaker>but indeed, I somewhen put mine separate for the reason you cited
04:40<@planetmaker>maybe time to move them. But the diff is ... big ;)
04:41*planetmaker added yesterday a diff of 40MByte where hg warned me about 'it may need >100MByte of ram to manage it" oh well :D
04:42<@planetmaker>should work out. facebook uses mercurial and they use HUGE repos
04:44<andythenorth>I assume it would be confusing to have both 'graphics_src' (spritesheets) and 'graphics_sources' (psds etc) ?
04:45<@planetmaker>generated stuff also doesn't belong in an src dir
04:45<@planetmaker>so the output just goes in graphics
04:45<@planetmaker>hm. graphics?
04:45<andythenorth>I could just leave the src spritesheets in the same dir as the psds
04:46<andythenorth>the issue here is three stage graphics pipeline
04:46<andythenorth>everything else is two-stage
04:46<andythenorth>source psd -> export png spritesheet -> render with pixa to final spritesheets
04:46<andythenorth>the first step is manual always
04:46<andythenorth>the second is programatic always
04:47<@planetmaker>psd->export png?
04:47<@planetmaker>why is that manual?
04:47<andythenorth>no benefit to automating it
04:47<andythenorth>there are so many variables with layers etc
04:47*planetmaker found that the really beneficial thing :D
04:48<andythenorth>it's also quite a rare step
04:48<@planetmaker>just draw and let scripts handle the rest
04:48<@planetmaker>but I do landscape, not vehicles or buildings
04:48<andythenorth>leaving one layer on or off could bork the sprites, and it wouldn't be detectable with code
04:48<@planetmaker>of course. But I set the layers I want for export
04:49<andythenorth>you must have well behaved artists contributing
04:49<@planetmaker>naming scheme for layers. Export script gives layers for individual files -> png
04:49<@planetmaker>I'm the only artist for that :D
04:49<andythenorth>the only logical name is 'graphics_intermediates' for the middle stage :P
04:50<@planetmaker>yes, logical. Not a bad name either :)
04:50<andythenorth>I'll do that then
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05:01*andythenorth wonders if a 'build' folder might be wise for all the generated stuff
05:01<andythenorth>otoh, flat is better
05:01<andythenorth>easy to find
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05:05<andythenorth>let's see if I broke the build :P
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05:06<@planetmaker>I was pondering to move everything generated to the build folder
05:07<@planetmaker>makes it harder to tain sources and easier to clean up
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05:10<andythenorth>planetmaker: I am +0.5
05:10<@planetmaker>yeah. That's about my stance, too
05:10<andythenorth>for lang and graphics and nml it makes sense
05:10<andythenorth>only docs bothers me
05:10<andythenorth>I actually use /docs a lot and I am used to where it is
05:10<@planetmaker>why does docs bother you?
05:11<andythenorth>I use it to verify stats etc sometimes
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05:11<andythenorth>I could just alias index.html
05:11<@planetmaker>docs should have what source ships with. Not what binary ships with
05:11<andythenorth>then I'd stop editing the wrong changelog
05:12<@planetmaker>oh, the build directory would be completely generated in my idea
05:12<@planetmaker>nothing for you to edit in there
05:15<andythenorth>total agreement
05:15<andythenorth>currently I forget, and edit changelog in /docs
05:15<andythenorth>instead of docs_src
05:15<andythenorth>then my changes are blown away
05:23<andythenorth>strictly, docs are output, not build
05:24<andythenorth>dunno :)
05:24<andythenorth>anyway, I didn't break it yet :)
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05:51<andythenorth>how does pixa work
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05:56<@Alberth>hi hi
05:56<LordAro>moin all
06:00<@planetmaker>moin moin
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06:20<andythenorth>for once, it all makes sense :)
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06:53<andythenorth>ugh, I don't like the bit where I have to get the interface wrong
06:53<andythenorth>so I can figure out what it should have been :P
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06:58<@Alberth>fix the docs, so you don't have to figure it out again in the future?
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07:04<fjb_mobile>Our write an errata for the documentation.
07:06<andythenorth>I have to design the interface before I could document it :)
07:06<andythenorth>that will be wrong :P
07:06<andythenorth>always is
07:07<andythenorth>after much copy-paste, I'll figure out what it should have been
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07:22<@planetmaker>what interface do you design, andythenorth ?
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07:28<@Alberth>hi hi
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07:36<andythenorth>planetmaker: interface to call pixa graphics processing (if needed) on a vehicle
07:37<andythenorth>I mean interface in scripting sense, not UI :)
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07:38<@planetmaker>oh :)
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08:41<@planetmaker>hm, quite convenient. It suffices to draw and code the 4x sprites. OpenTTD does the rest :D
08:41<@planetmaker>(if you still have some 1x 8bpp)
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08:55<@Alberth>at the cost of a bit of quality, probably :)
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08:59<@planetmaker>not that bad really
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09:07-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by planetmaker
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09:10<@Alberth>looks very neat :)
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09:13<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r26235 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2014-01-11 14:13:23 UTC)
09:13<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Decimal and digit separators were swapped for Korean language
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11:07<Sonny_Jim>Hi, I'm trying to join one of the openttd servers and it says I've been banned?
11:08<Sonny_Jim>In fact it seems I can't join any of the btpro servers??
11:09<Sonny_Jim>Other servers seem to work, do I have the wrong client version or something?
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11:10<Eddi|zuHause>you have to contact the server owner
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11:11<@Rubidium>either you have been banned, or one of the people that use the same provider as you has been banned
11:12<Superuser>I wonder what you need to do to get banned from ottd
11:12<@Rubidium>in any case, the developers of OpenTTD can't do anything about bans that are done by third parties (i.e. game server hosters)
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>Superuser: either you spam or you destroy the game (e.g. flatten all land to sea level or so)
11:14<@Rubidium>... or someone in your IP range does that and the game server hoster bans the whole range and/or your ISP rotates IP addresses so you get the IP address that someone else who got banned had
11:15<Sonny_Ji1>So what can I do?
11:15<Sonny_Ji1>Is there a way I can see why that IP range was banned or anything?
11:15<@Alberth>ask the server owner
11:16<Sonny_Ji1>Who runs the BT Pro servers?
11:16<Sonny_Ji1>I got a link from the BTPro website to here, so I assumed here was the palce
11:16*Rubidium doesn't know
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>read their website?
11:16*Sonny_Ji1 looks again
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11:17<Sonny_Ji1>Ah, it's on a different network
11:17<Sonny_Ji1>thanks anwyay
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12:21<triad>could you guys recommend me a good printer ?
12:24<Superuser>anyone in here speak arabic?
12:24<Superuser>triad: depends on your requirements
12:25<Superuser>i.e. what quantity of paper you are looking to print, what additional features are you looking for (e.g. scanning), whether it will be laser or inkjet...
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12:26<triad>office printing
12:26<triad>general purpose
12:26<triad>nothing fancy
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12:28<Superuser>as in, small business office? Are we talking say 50 pages a week?
12:28<@planetmaker>err... this is not exactly a printer recommendation channel, no?
12:28<andythenorth>there are no good printers
12:28<andythenorth>all printers are rubbish
12:29<triad>max 300-400 pages/month
12:29<andythenorth>I have been the unsatisfied owner of Epson, Canon, Lexmark, Xerox and Brother
12:29<Superuser>oh dear, epson
12:29<andythenorth>inkjet, photo inkjet, colour laser, black and white laser
12:29<andythenorth>many kinds
12:29<triad>so what's the most cheapest thing to do
12:29<andythenorth>currently I own 2 HP office all-in-one thingies
12:30<Superuser>well triad then an inkjet will do you fine provided that you don't care about insane levels of quality
12:30<andythenorth>the ink is frighteningly expensive, but the printer is good
12:30<Superuser>yeah we had an all-in-one too for a while
12:30<Superuser>now we have a canon
12:30<andythenorth>I got bored of Canon's drying the print heads out
12:30<andythenorth>had about 4 of them
12:30<andythenorth>cheap to buy
12:30<Superuser>the nice thing about canon is that there are lots of unofficial cartridges
12:30<Superuser>(it depends on the printer ofc)
12:31<andythenorth>printers are consumable
12:31<andythenorth>the asset is the ink
12:32<triad>what do you think about lasers ?
12:32<Sanfred>Wait, there are people that still use ink printers? Seems like madness to me.
12:32<andythenorth>lasers need toner
12:32<andythenorth>toner is frighteningly expensive
12:32<andythenorth>and lasers aren't as fast as you might hope
12:32<Sanfred>Toner is much, much cheaper per page when compared to ink.
12:33<andythenorth>I remember seeing a B+W laser printing 50ppm in about 1994
12:33<andythenorth>but it would have cost £4k
12:33<triad>Sanfred: you recommend laser ? what kind ?
12:33<andythenorth>every laser I have owned can manage about 10ppm, badly
12:33<triad>there are any shitty things like drying if you don't print 1 month ?
12:33<andythenorth>but then we spend £250 on them, so meh
12:33<Superuser>laser is very expensive
12:34<Superuser>not just the printer, the 'ink' too
12:34<andythenorth>I wish the forum was less strongly opinonated about eating my cookies
12:34<andythenorth>I have to log in every few hours
12:35<Sanfred>I bought a Samsung SCX-4200 printer about 7 years ago for about $180. Since then I've printed about 5000 pages and spent about $100 on toner. Still works great.
12:35<triad>Sanfred: at the laser printer there are shitty things like at ink: if you don't print something it will dry and eventually you need to replace something
12:36<Sanfred>triad: no. Give it toner and paper and it will work.
12:36<triad>so it can stay with no printing how much i want ?
12:37<Sanfred>If you print extremely much, you will have to replace the drum unit eventually. Still no big deal.
12:37<triad>so it can stay with no printing how much i want ?
12:38<Sanfred>yes. I've seen a printer that was used for three days, then stored for half a year, then used for three days again. Has worked for years with no service.
12:38<triad>extremely meaning how much ? (by the way, thx for answering my questions. all of you :] )
12:38<Sanfred>(that one is a Brother laser)
12:39<Sanfred>check the specifications for the printer you're interested in, for number of pages the drum unit is supposed to manage before being replaced
12:39<triad>oh, ok
12:40<Sanfred>And don't forget to check that you get a full toner with the printer, not some 300-pages "get started toner"
12:41<triad>good point!
12:44<@planetmaker>nice. Finally animated water in 32bpp
12:46<Sanfred>is 32bpp rendering actuall faster than 8bpp on a modern cpu?
12:48<Sanfred>My openttd window is 3840x1200 pixels and it is extremely slow when moving around (1.4-beta2 with cargodist enabled for all cargo types)
12:49<@planetmaker>Sanfred, read up on the 32bpp sse blitter thread in the forums :)
12:49<@planetmaker>it has all the numbers
12:49<Sanfred>will do, thanks
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13:57<@Rubidium>Sanfred: it heavily depends on the circumstances whether 32bpp is faster and on your GPU/OS/libraries
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13:58<@Rubidium>in any case, the most significant improvement you can get is by using the 64 bit binary instead of 32 bit binary
14:00<@Rubidium>in the 'no drawing' case OpenTTD's 64 bits Windows binary is about 5% faster than the 32 bits binary. In the animated blitter case that increases up to 15% and that is simply using a different binary
14:01<@Rubidium>the blitter numbers in the thread are usually only counting the time spent in the blitting methods, so those improvements aren't necessarily as big as they seem
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14:01<@Rubidium>nevertheless, you can have improvements of 5-15% as well there
14:03<@Rubidium>so if you would go from a 32 bits binary with 32bpp-anim to a 64 bits binary with 32bpp-sse4-anim you could see improvements of like 30%
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14:05<@planetmaker>wild wild landscape
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14:06<@Rubidium>that's definitely patchy
14:06<@planetmaker>yes, shores are missing
14:06<LordAro>looks fancy, what's it for?
14:06<@planetmaker>for my pleasure, LordAro ;)
14:07<LordAro>planetmaker = zephyris :p
14:07<@planetmaker>his work flow definitely is different
14:08<@planetmaker>Rubidium, it's unpatched OpenTTD, should you have meant that
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14:14<@Alberth>o/ fjb
14:15<fjb>Moin Alberth
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14:44<andythenorth>I have a string, which I want to convert to an object reference
14:44<andythenorth>because at the point it's first defined, I don't have the object in scope
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>use a dict
14:44<andythenorth>I was trying to avoid a mapping :)
14:44<andythenorth>and I've been conditioned to never ever ever use eval
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>never ever use eval
14:44<andythenorth>probably the answer is change the design I think
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>but if a dict is not the right answer, i need more context
14:45<andythenorth>I am just being lazy about getting the object in scope
14:45<andythenorth>it means adding an import to about 60 files or so
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>that was not the question
14:46<andythenorth>I know, I am thinking of best explanation
14:46<andythenorth>a dict is the correct answer tbh
14:46<andythenorth>I just didn't want to maintain a mapping
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14:50<Eddi|zuHause>a factory method could also help
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>but these code patterns are usually of the kind "we have these two already developed code pieces, make them fit together", and can often be solved better if developed from scratch to be fit
14:52<andythenorth>the specific case is that I want to have a vehicle specify which of several graphics processors to use
14:52<andythenorth>the processors are just modules
14:53<andythenorth>or classes in a single module, not written yet, could be either
14:54<andythenorth>when I call the init for the vehicle, I need to pass the module name as a parameter
14:55<andythenorth>there are ~40 modules for vehicles so far :P
14:55<andythenorth>so I can either add an import to every vehicle module, or I can pass a string, and use a lookup table later
14:56<andythenorth>the table looks like a much better bet, except it has to be manually maintained every time I add a new processor
14:56<andythenorth>or maybe I can do that programatically?
14:56<andythenorth>have each module register itself
14:56<andythenorth>ok thanks
14:56<andythenorth>you made me answer it for myself :)
15:01<@Alberth>annoying eh, teddy bears talking back :p
15:06<andythenorth>pixa stuff always makes my head hurt
15:07<andythenorth>not even going to try and describe my current puzzle :)
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15:22<Eddi|zuHause>often describing your problem with actual words will make the solution obvious
15:25<andythenorth>do I create a potentially large number of named singletons to use as graphics processors (names might be long and fiddly)
15:26<andythenorth>or do I have fewer, and pass parameters, but I might be repeating myself often, and have a maintenance headache if changes are needed
15:26<andythenorth>e.g. all hopper wagons use same processor
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>prepare a factory method that translates names into parameters
15:27<andythenorth>that's the same pattern as last time I tried this I think
15:28<andythenorth>BANDIT (never-finished truck set)
15:28<andythenorth>splits filenames into params
15:28<andythenorth>which also reduced work in thinking up unique names :P
15:47<andythenorth>any comments on this?
15:53<@Alberth>missing words are easy to add imho
15:53<@Alberth>as for the units, it would clean up quite a few strings imho
15:54<frosch123>hmm, we have no newgrf stringcode for cargo amounts
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15:58<andythenorth>that's one reason I was 'meh' about that comment :)
15:59<frosch123>yeah, i think the lack of such a string command is the actualy problem :p
15:59<andythenorth>there has been so much faff with those industry strings in FIRS
15:59<andythenorth>so many mistakes, unit corrections etc
16:06<frosch123>hmm, how to pack cargotype and cargoamount onto the text stack?
16:06<frosch123>most amounts use words
16:06<frosch123>cargotype could live with a byte
16:06<frosch123>so, should it use 2+1 bytes, or 2+2?
16:07<@planetmaker>for stations you likely would rather want 2 bytes for the amount?
16:07<frosch123>2 for amount is settlerd
16:07<frosch123>but for the cargotype i can either use 1 to make it compact, or 2 to make it easier to sue
16:07<frosch123>yeah, i think 2+2 is way better
16:08<@planetmaker>why does cargotype need two?
16:08<@Alberth>perhaps also specify how to output?
16:08<@Alberth>ie override the user setting?
16:08<frosch123>planetmaker: 1 would be enough, but putting 3 bytes on the textstack makes it a lot harder for newgrf and nml
16:09<frosch123>Alberth: why would anyone want to do that?
16:09<@Alberth>no idea
16:09<@Rubidium>I'd say word because of string codes 85 and 86
16:11<frosch123>is there any reason why some newgrf stringcodes interpret stuff as signed or unsigned?
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16:29<frosch123>we cannot nest strings from different grfs :p
16:30<frosch123>hmm, but since dparams are 64bit, maybe i can remove _last_grfid and put the grfid into the param along the string id
16:37<@Rubidium>you probably can ;)
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>yay for removing magic global variables :)
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16:48<frosch123>@calc 26 << 11
16:48<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
16:48<frosch123>@calc 26 * 2**11
16:48<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 53248
16:48<frosch123>@base 10 16 53248
16:48<@DorpsGek>frosch123: D000
16:48<frosch123>@calc 2**11
16:48<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 2048
16:48<frosch123>@base 10 16 2048
16:48<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 800
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17:06<frosch123>hmm, this might even fix the dubious newgrf-can-crash-ottd-with-weird-stringid-unkown bug
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17:17<@Rubidium>you want to make string IDs <newgrfid> << 32 | localid ?
17:17<frosch123>no, does not look like that is needed
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17:47<@planetmaker>slowly getting somewhere:
17:49<frosch123>do cyclops live on thas island?
17:50<frosch123>it is owned by Nobody
17:52<@planetmaker>but the AI crash so many planes, surely somewhen a plane will also fall on that island
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>the shoreline needs some work
17:55<@planetmaker>yes, but that's the details :P
17:56<frosch123>it definitely uses a different set of colours, so looks all new and fresh
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18:27<@planetmaker>good night
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18:40<JVassie>anyone around who's a dab hand with NML?
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>anyone around who's a dab hand with metaquestions?
18:42<JVassie>I shall rephrase :P
18:42<JVassie>Anyone here who has an NML environment setup who wouldn't mind quickly compiling a .grf for me from my ready-prepared .nml and .lng files?
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>request a repo at the devzone?
18:44<JVassie>was that a suggestion or a question? :)
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18:53<JVassie>"I you like help to code your Town Names NewGRF, please open a Ticket or meet us on IRC."
18:54<JVassie>quoted from devzone
18:55<frosch123>so you want a townname project?
18:55<JVassie>Indeed please
18:55<JVassie>I have the .nml and .lng files ready to go
18:56<frosch123>planetmaker: how official is your upload-test thingie?
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18:57<frosch123>oh, he said good night half an hour ago
18:57<frosch123>JVassie: better open a ticket then
18:58<frosch123>devzone is currently not in a ready-to-go state
18:58<JVassie>using the 'Apply for a project' link yes?
18:59<JVassie>tracker type, membership, that ok?
19:00<JVassie>all done
19:14<JVassie>damn NML is easy to use :x
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>well you could just install nml and make the grf yourself
19:18<JVassie>I did
19:18<JVassie>I thought there would be more to it than there was
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>there rarely is
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>depends on how good the instructions are
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19:19<JVassie>Well, it took quite a lot of fiddling to get M4 set up and working correctly :P
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>of if they are made for someone with lower or higher experience than you have
19:20<JVassie>How can I upload the grf to BaNaNaS?
19:20<JVassie>can't see any obvious links on the bananas site
19:20<JVassie>(yes I'm signed in)
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>you need to create a manager account
19:21<JVassie>right you are
19:21<frosch123> <- just there
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19:21<JVassie>got it ta
19:22<JVassie>what would be a sensible minimum ottd version for a town name grf?
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>any >= 1.0 i suppose
19:22<frosch123>town name support is older than bananas support
19:23<frosch123>but your nml grf will require ottd 1.2
19:23<JVassie>ok np
19:23<JVassie>1.2.0 it is
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>oh right, nml creates grfv8
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>i always forget that :)
19:24<frosch123>damn, someone knows a grf that disables itself with a proper action b message?
19:24<frosch123>ah, "canadian" is always a good try
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>tried the dbset on arctic/tropic?
19:25<frosch123>yes, but it only disables, without message
19:25<frosch123>probably too old :p
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>the ecs extension without base?
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19:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure i have seen actionB in that code
19:26<frosch123>yeah, it complains about missing ecs
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 12 00:00:23 2014