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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-01-17

---Logopened Fri Jan 17 00:00:31 2014
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04:40<dihedral>how are you sir?
04:43<Xaroth|Work>waiting for weekend to save me
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04:54<Tuhin>i started a game, passed few years in game but not competitor shows up
04:54<Xaroth|Work>are they enabled?
04:54<Tuhin>not a single *
04:55<Tuhin>where to eneable it
04:55<Xaroth|Work>that... i don't know :P
04:56<Tuhin>now it says no suitable Ais found
04:56<@planetmaker>Tuhin, yes, you need to download AIs first
04:56<Tuhin>ah bummer
04:56<@planetmaker>there's quite a few with different strengths etc
04:56<@planetmaker>you can do so from ingame, not difficult, just two clicks away
04:56<Tuhin>so which is balanced.. i dont want any super Ai who crashes my bus with his trains....
04:56<@planetmaker>checkout our wiki for AI comparison chart, if you need a guide
04:57<@planetmaker>such AI doesn't exist really. They all play fair
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05:03<Tuhin>btw the 1st plane i bought in 1st game crashed on 1st flight.....
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05:04<Tuhin>i think the game makes too frequent plane crashes
05:04<Flygon>This is Flygon. And Flygon is going to ask a reeeaaally reallllly dumb question. You will be absolutely astounded by how dumb it is. And 0.1% isn't too frequent.
05:04<Flygon>Or was it 1%...
05:04<Flygon>Either way
05:05<Flygon>If a rail vehicle has a x-Hydralic geared transmission (eg. switching to 2nd gear from 1st @ 65km/h, then 2nd gear to 3rd @ 130km/h, for a maximum speed of 200km/h)
05:05<Flygon>Does it still have a singular tractive effort in an OpenTTD context?
05:05<Flygon>Or does the NewGRF format somehow account for this?
05:06<Xaroth|Work>you can disable plane crashes iirc
05:07<Flygon>You can
05:07<Flygon>It's in the Advanced Controls/Options
05:09<Tuhin>yes i eventuay did.. but i expected balanced natural game..without cheats...
05:10<Tuhin>in original TT, it was rare and was really like accident all of a sudden....
05:10<Tuhin>but in OpenTT it happeded too frequently in "Normal" setting
05:11<Tuhin>planetmaker, i downloaded AI NoCab = it buillds all kind of stuff
05:13<juzza1>Flygon: probably no newgrf author has bothered to code variable TE depending on driving speed
05:13<Flygon>Hmm, alright
05:13<Flygon>Well, if a complete Victoria or Australia set happens
05:13<Flygon>That elephant in the room's gonna needa jabbing
05:13<Flygon>It's a veeeeeeery popular transmission here
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05:14<Flygon>I'd even bet money we'll wind up with an Electric-Hydralic HST EMU by 2025 for the Geelong line
05:15<Flygon>So, the possibility exists, but hasn't been tried...
05:15<Flygon>juzza1: The real confusion comes in, when you consider that each gear costs a different amount to run
05:15<Flygon>And that the onboard computer changes gearchanges depending on speed
05:16<@planetmaker>Flygon, honestly, changing the TE for that purpose is a completely clear case of over-engineered
05:16<Flygon>eg. 1st gear switches to 2nd anywhere from 65km/h to 90km/h, and 2nd to 3rd anywhere from 100km/h to 140km/h
05:16<Flygon>planetmaker: Well, it worked. They accelerate over 3x faster than the ICE-TD with the same top speed!~
05:17<@planetmaker>I don't talk of real life, I talk of NewGRFs :)
05:17<Flygon>Oh, right
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05:17<Flygon>But wouldn't having it locked to the 1st gear acceleration rate render the DMU waaay overpowered?
05:18<Flygon>Considering it'd accelerate as fast/faster than a majority of Australia's EMU sets x.x
05:18<Tuhin>what ai u all use/installed?
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05:21<juzza1>Flygon: possibly, if you insist on copying stats 1:1
05:21<[1]Tuhin>what i missed
05:21<Flygon>I'm a stickler for realism
05:22<Flygon>I'm even more of a stickler for being lazy
05:22<Flygon>So nothing'll come of this for at least 36 months anyway x3
05:22<Flygon>I really do hope we make the Electric-Hydralic HST, either way...
05:22<[1]Tuhin>Flygon, maybe u can provide the dev team with some speed/gear numbers and they can implement
05:22<Flygon>1.2m/s+ for a 200-210k/h train would be pretty neat
05:23<Flygon>...assuming that the standard Diesel-Hydralic style transmission wouldn't explode
05:23<Flygon>Tuhin: The Ausset one?
05:24<[1]Tuhin>Ausset AI ?? i cant find such name
05:25<Flygon>Oh, I derped
05:25<Flygon>Sorry >_<"
05:25<Flygon>I thought you were talking about a train set
05:25<Flygon>And I got confused
05:25<Flygon>And I am very sorry x:
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05:26<[1]Tuhin>so, which AI u all use/like
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05:28<Flygon>I've typically played solo or against other players x:
05:32<Tuhin>i haven't tried multi yet
05:34<Tuhin>which server is good
05:34<Tuhin>how do i decide which server will be good for me...i got hundreds in list
05:40<Xaroth|Work>by checking them out?
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06:56<dihedral><Xaroth|Work> you? <- could be busier than i am :-P
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08:10<Andreas>Is there any way for a gs to know who funded an industry?
08:14<@planetmaker>likely yes
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08:16<Andreas>I am trying to expand on krinn's award gs by adding some awards. I want to add an award for funding certain industries. So far all I could find is the IndustryOpen event
08:17<Andreas>but that does not tell who funded it (or even if it was placed randomly by the game)
08:17<Andreas>so I was wondering if you could point me in the right direction
08:17<@planetmaker>hm... actually... not sure anymore. An industry can decide who may found it. Not sure that the founder is actually remembered anywhere, though
08:19<Andreas>would it be possible in some way to intercept the DoCommand for funding an industry?
08:21<Pikka>planetmaker, it is, I think.
08:22<Pikka>or at least it is known at the time it's founded, I seem to remember a newgrf that gave an industry your company colour when you built it.
08:22<Pikka>perhaps I'm dreaming though, I just got up. :)
08:22<@planetmaker>Pikka, yes, it is. The (internal) struct knows owner and founder
08:22<@planetmaker>with a remark that owner should always be OWNER_NONE ;)
08:22<@planetmaker>Andreas, not sure what event ET_INDUSTRY_OPEN reports
08:24<@planetmaker>seems only IndustryID
08:24<@planetmaker>Seems you need to find the GS thread in the forums and see whether that idea / request is already there
08:24<@planetmaker>Andreas, the easiest way would be to implement a function which returns the founder of an industry; that function simply doesn't seem to exist
08:25<@planetmaker>but take my word with a grain of salt. I'm not very well aquainted with the scripts api
08:26<Andreas>Thankyou. Yeah, I allready tried EY_INDUSTRY_OPEN, and I made it give a message when an industry opens telling : {INDUSTRY} has been opened!
08:26<Andreas>but I could not find anything in relation to the founder indeed
08:29<Andreas>I know the xShunter plugin by xOR gives achievements for funding industries, but I think I recall that xShunter achievements are based on the DoCommands sent...
08:39<@planetmaker>"plug-in" :D
08:41<Andreas>indeed :p
08:44<Xaroth|Work>sounds more like "dirty hack" :|
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08:52<Andreas>well I suppose it is, but on the other hand, a lot of things that it implements are not possible in GS (due to api and other limitations) so, if they want to use the "oficcial" road they have to: 1) suggest the new functionality 2) wait for devs to aprove/disaprove 3) wait for it to be implemented. This takes a lot of time. Also if you want to appeal to the average player, it is best to stick to trunk, which makes the road from suggestion to impl
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10:41<Pikka>hello Belugas
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10:49<@Belugas>sir Pikka! Are you still sweating? I heard you had quite a heat wave recently
10:49<Pikka>the latest one wasn't so bad up here, more down south
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11:18<jamesss>Anyone know how to stop the OSx menu bar and dock bar showing when trying to scroll up and down while in fullscreen mode?
11:19<Xaroth|Work>I take it you want us to exclude the easy two answers? (being "Don't use OSx" and "Don't play fullscreen")
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11:21<@Rubidium>can't you make the window "always on top"? Although... I reckon you need a title bar for that, so I fear that won't work either
11:23<jamesss>Xaroth|Work: yes please!
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11:26<MNIM>jamesss: how about "Openttd isn't supported for OSX"?
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11:27<jamesss>MNIM: ok thank you
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11:27<Eddi|zuHause>jamesss: well if you find one, please let us know
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11:38<jamesss>looking around and so far not found any way around it.
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12:50<fjb>Moin frosch123
12:51<rubenwardy>Hi all#
12:53<fjb>Hi rubenwardy
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13:17<@planetmaker>hey ho
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13:29<Eddi|zuHause>random idea: "town-classes" (town/city/village/...) are influenced by different amount of maximum stations (e.g. village: 1, town: 5, city: 10) regarding growth acceleration
13:30<Andreas>sounds interesting but would make it even easier than in allready is to grow towns
13:31<Andreas>and I hear more about towns growing to fast than the other way arround
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>and possibly, towns may switch class randomly (similar to random industry production) to a lower or higher class
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>well the problem is not that towns grow too fast, but that they all grow equally fast
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>i have no problem with some towns getting huge, but others should stay small so there are rural areas left in late game
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>and this could completely replace the (totally arbitrary) "city growth factor"
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>the increased number of stations could lead to mostly the same effect
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>but then it's easier to extend to more classes
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>(but i fear the answer is: "make a GS")
13:35<jrambo>not a bad idea to have more rural areas later, but, if it is going to be done that way, at least make it like: village 1-5, town 5-15+, etc.
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>jrambo: it's not the amount of stations you can place, it's the amont of stations considered for town growth speed
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>which is currently hardcoded at 5
13:36<frosch123>[19:29] <Eddi|zuHause> random idea: "town-classes" (town/city/village/...) are influenced by different amount of maximum stations (e.g. village: 1, town: 5, city: 10) regarding growth acceleration <- i would suggest the exact opposite
13:37<frosch123>a maximum number of stations is stupid and limits gameplay fun
13:37<frosch123>instead there should be a minimum number of serviced stations for a town being able to maintain a certain population
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so more like "a station in a village has lower effect on an open-end scale"?
13:37<jrambo>yes, i understand. still, maybe an industry is served with a lot of stations, and the town doesn't need to grow
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13:38<frosch123>currently town growth is an integral value
13:38<jrambo>plus, the town should need a lot of bus (tram?) stations, to make it really huge
13:38<frosch123>whatever the player does influences the speed of growth, which results in big towns with 1 station or whatever
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13:39<Eddi|zuHause>so we need an actual world economy simulator :p
13:39<frosch123>player actions should increase the limit for the town size, not affect the speed of growth
13:39<Wolf01>hi hi
13:40<jrambo>thankfully, there are newgrfs :D
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but since town size is effectively a function of (blocked) space and number of houses closing vs. town growth speed, what would a maximum size really do?
13:41<Andreas>limit the max no of houses in a town?
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: generally, with cargodist/yacd, you get more stations in a town than needed to speed up the growth to max
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>which does not produce useful gameplay IMHO
13:42<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: well, my main target is to punish 64x64 stations and support a dense area of many stations
13:43<Andreas>so Eddi|zuHause if I understand correctly your aim is to make towns grow faster if no of stations is higher?
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>no, i want more elements of town growth that is independent from player interaction
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>if max. number of stations is 1 for villages, then the "natural" town growth has much higher effect
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>and the player-influenced effect is lower
13:45<@planetmaker>max number as in max number which has an influence, yes?
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>for city or metropolis with 10 or 20 stations, it's the opposite
13:45<@planetmaker>Or you really want to disallow building more stations?
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no, but i said that already
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>(where "metropolis" might not be created at game start, but instead is a "merging" of towns when it grows really large)
13:47<@planetmaker>I'm sure the hassle to merge towns is not worth the effect
13:47<Andreas>so basically you want players to use towns that are growing allready in stead of players growing towns?
13:47<Andreas>*by adding stations, delivering stuff and so on?
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>no, more like "there's no point in focusing on this town, focus on that town instead"
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>take some ECS farms that say "we close when the town grows too close"
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's practically impossible to place this somewhere, because ALL towns grow too close
13:51<Andreas>so in short it would kind of randomly allow towns to grow (or not)
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>it would not stop growth, but slow it down (or accelerate) on a basis that the player could easily detect
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13:57<Eddi|zuHause>there are more things that are "wrong" with town growth, e.g. the size of town zone 5 (skyscrapers) is too large too quickly
13:58<Andreas>ok so let me rephrase what I asked earlier: you want some towns to have a faster groth potential (detectable in some way by a player) and some to have lower potential. This in order to have a bigger difference between different towns?
14:11<andythenorth>that's a proper train
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14:11<andythenorth>8,000hp, steep grade, broad gauge
14:11<andythenorth>planetmaker: 'ghat' ?
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>there are no people on the roof!
14:12<Pikka>andythenorth, that's an improper train
14:12<andythenorth>it is? :o
14:13<@planetmaker>ghat is good :)
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14:15<@planetmaker>ghat is actually excellent :D
14:19<@planetmaker>seems to be a word with many meanings
14:20<andythenorth>Pikka: so what are you doing with the funny lengths? o_O
14:21<Pikka>maybe someone will implement and fix it
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>make funny heights to make the misproportion more apparent
14:21<Pikka>or maybe I'll just have to put up with it. :P
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14:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that will be touched
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: broken link?
14:29<Pikka>oh, it was in a pm, so...
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>you can't link PMs to outsiders
14:34<Superuser_>that's not zbase is it
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14:35<Pikka>it isn't
14:35<Pikka>also, I can do separate sprites for each livery, right? That's not going to blow out the grf size too much, right? :D
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>i have 1000 vehicles, no serious problems yet :p
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>i made nforenum freak out recently with the sprite number 65536
14:37<@planetmaker>Pikka, depends on 'too much'. But... I'd not worry :D
14:38<@planetmaker>my newest project is 28M in size right now. And not even half done
14:38<Andreas>I like those, they look less like brightly coloured childrens toys than some other 32bpp sprites
14:39<andythenorth>I for one welcome our new 32bpp overlords
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>they still look like toys due to the length-misproportion
14:39<andythenorth>now if someone could just fix FIRS for 32bpp
14:39<Pikka>they're not misprortioned
14:39<Pikka>they're just chibi
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>maybe your dictionary defines "proportion" differently :p
14:40<andythenorth>I am +1 to chibi
14:40<Pikka>well, they don't change proportions between directions
14:40<Pikka>like "proper" ttd sprites do
14:40<andythenorth>I am going to do some chibi trucks I think :P
14:40<andythenorth>if I ever get to it
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but they're not 20m x 4m x 3m
14:41<andythenorth>Pikka: we (me and him) found the Iron Horse thingy is more fun with fake trains :)
14:41<Pikka>mmm fake trains
14:41<Andreas>don't you mean chubby?
14:41<andythenorth>fake / silly prototypes / made up
14:42<Pikka>mine are made up, but not that silly.
14:42<Pikka>if I did silly ones, I
14:42<Pikka>'d have to do some sensible ones too
14:42<Pikka>and that's too much work
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>we already have NUTS
14:44<Pikka>Eddi: I'm only doing 14 locos in total. including emus and monolev. So there's not much room for silly. :) and we already have nuts.
14:44<andythenorth>we couldn't stick to 16
14:44<andythenorth>we tried :(
14:44<andythenorth>no discipline
14:44<@planetmaker>we love you for that, andythenorth
14:45<Pikka>2-10-0 Lemon!
14:45<@planetmaker>with more discipline you wouldn't start these sets :D
14:45<andythenorth>I didn't finish this version
14:45<Pikka>this is the best version
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>we already have wetrails...
14:46<andythenorth>surprisingly works well
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>some old TT(D) versions had a bug where you could run trains on water
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>trains and ships share the same trackbits (movement pattern)
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15:18<Tuhin>how to rotate Hub airports?
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15:20<Tuhin>2. What's the difference between City and Metropoiton Airports
15:21<Pinkbeast>You can't rotate airports; one has more runways IIRC?
15:21<Tuhin>what's the benefit?
15:21<Pinkbeast>Land and take off more aircraft.
15:21<Tuhin>why keep single runway airport?
15:21<Tuhin>dual run way costs more?
15:21<Tuhin>airport size is same
15:21<Pinkbeast>I think it's introduced later.
15:22<Tuhin>i mistakeny built singlerun way one....
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15:23<frosch123>you need opengfx+airports for rotating airports
15:23<Tuhin>i have OpenTTD 1.3.3 atest
15:23<frosch123>1.2 would be good enough
15:23<frosch123>you need that newgrf for it
15:24<Tuhin>where to get hat
15:24<frosch123>check online content
15:24<frosch123>anyway, will only work for new games
15:25<Tuhin>i started this new game
15:25<Tuhin>and the 1st thing i built is that airport
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15:27<Tuhin>which other contents r "Must have
15:27<Tuhin>so that i dont have to restart game over for new contents
15:28<frosch123>what do you already have?
15:29<Tuhin>some AI
15:29<Tuhin>and latest 1.3.3
15:29<frosch123>must have is only stuff without alternative. i guess that only applies to ogfx+airports and heqs
15:29<Tuhin>i m playing OpenTTD after years of gap....
15:29*andythenorth will have an alternative to heqs one day
15:30<frosch123>for trains there are many choices, but if you are more of a gamer than a train fanatic you might want "nuts"
15:30<Tuhin>i m gamer
15:31<frosch123>for road vehicles you need "heqs" and some second set for busses and small trucks (either "ogfx+rv" or "egrvts" most likely)
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15:31<frosch123>for ships you can choose between "fish 1" and "fish 2/squid"
15:31<frosch123>for aircraft there is basicalyl only "av8"
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15:32<frosch123>for stations you pick "isr" and "chips" and then as many as you like or think that the menu becomes unuseable due to too many options
15:32<frosch123>for industries - if you are a gamer - you pick either "ogfx+industries" or "firs" or default industries
15:33<frosch123>for houses you pick either default houses, or maybe "swedish"
15:33<@planetmaker>well. pick ogfx+industries or firs. By default ogfx-industries is the same as default industries but improved graphics
15:33<frosch123>for objects you pick as many as you get
15:33<@planetmaker>hm, except toyland
15:33<frosch123>for railtypes you do not pick anything if using "nuts"
15:34<frosch123>oh, and finally you pick one townname set which sounds most unknown to you
15:34<andythenorth>and a GS...? o_O
15:35<frosch123>i think you should play without GS for the first game, unless you use the "tutorial"
15:36<Tuhin>i know how to play
15:36<Tuhin>GS is for?
15:36<frosch123>later you can choose between GS which favour cargo transport ("sillicon valley", "nocargoal"), town growth (many), or mixed stuff ("gsawards")
15:37<frosch123>GS make the game a bit less sand-boxy by adding goals or score
15:38<frosch123>while the default game as score or money, it is not considered particulary challenging or interesting
15:39<frosch123>anyway, default is fine if you do not want to be forced to have a goal, but rather like sandbox
15:39<Tuhin>i used to buy competitors in original TTD... that used to be my goal
15:39<andythenorth>that's an anti-goal :)
15:39<andythenorth>they make such a mess
15:40*andythenorth had better do some pixa stuff
15:40<andythenorth>what do I need to do again?
15:40<Tuhin>add some barracks, troops, tanks and fighters/bombers
15:40<Tuhin>then battle AI to OpenTTD
15:41<frosch123>nah, that is a boring thing
15:41<frosch123>every game that is seeking for some purpose tries to do war
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15:42<frosch123>because it is the only "money sink" they can imagine
15:42<Tuhin>maybe add borders in map.... a player gets to develop and work in his own territory
15:42<frosch123>thats called "head to head"
15:42<Tuhin>whoever manages his territory most gets developped better
15:42<frosch123>but is unmainted for 3 years or so
15:43<Tuhin>better development= more industrial output= troop production...then war
15:43<Tuhin>Like Anno Games
15:43<frosch123>i have no purpose for my money = war
15:43<frosch123>games only have war because they do not offer unlimited expansion
15:43<Tuhin>well i m talking about Revolution to expand game mechanics
15:44<Tuhin>maybe add a trading layer?
15:44<Tuhin>"Port Royale" "The Patrician" like gameplay
15:44<frosch123>i hope not like recent simcity :p
15:44<Tuhin>didnt play recent looked dumbed down to me
15:44<frosch123>reduce the mapsize to 32x32, and add regions which connect servers
15:45<frosch123>then make trains just drive in circles
15:45<Tuhin>sometimes i want to disable trains... the ai kills the map with rails...
15:46<frosch123>you can disable specific transport types for the ai in advanced settings
15:46<frosch123>but some ais will just commit suicide if they cannot build what they want
15:46*Tuhin playing OpenTTD after years of gap
15:47<Tuhin>how they commit suicide?
15:48<frosch123>there are ais like "chopper ai" which are designed to focus on a single transport type
15:48<frosch123>if you disable that one they won't do anything
15:48<frosch123>either they sit around until they bankrupt or they give you a fu window
15:48<Andreas>still, somebody (or something) would die
15:49<Andreas>and therefor he hs got his way (war)
15:49<Tuhin>i plan to play with airport- airplanes- helis only
15:50<Tuhin>and trucks for industry
15:50<Tuhin>railroads just messes up
15:50<frosch123>certainly a unique opinion :p
15:50<Tuhin>why game have to be unpaused to build anything??????
15:50<frosch123>there is an advanced setting to build in pause mode
15:51<Tuhin>......grrrr why this way by default?
15:51<Tuhin>it wasn't this way before
15:51<Pinkbeast>It used to be a cheat option.
15:51<Tuhin>it makes building harder
15:51<frosch123>true, in the past you could not play at all in pause :p
15:51<Tuhin>i could have built roads, rails iirc
15:56<Tuhin>there should be a community pack with all popular addons builtin
15:57<Tuhin>i m playing after years and have no clue abt all these mods/addons
15:58<@planetmaker>the basic game is still the same. Just start slowly with NewGRFs and game scripts
15:58<@planetmaker>then you'll also find out which you like
15:58<Pinkbeast>Who's to say what "the most popular" rail / industry / RV / etc. set is?
15:58<@Rubidium>OpenGFX is
15:59<Pinkbeast>Err well, "installed by default" is perhaps stretching the idea of "popular"
16:00<Tuhin>rotating airports should ship by default....
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that exactly what makes things "popular"?
16:00<Tuhin>this addon is just natural....
16:01<frosch123>Tuhin: 70% of players will say that airtransport is crap
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>i mean: is windows popular because it's installed by default, or is windows installed by default because it's popular?
16:01<frosch123>and noone needs airports
16:01<frosch123>nor rotating ones
16:01<Tuhin>what's the starting rule with train tracks then?
16:02<Tuhin>i m playing plane only coz building rail tracks= many mistakes
16:02<frosch123>no idea, i have played too long
16:02<Taede>mistakes are opportunities for learning
16:02<Tuhin>Linux is way better than Windows, but Windows is more popular coz most ppl can use windoz
16:02<Pikka>how about extraextrazoomlevels? :D
16:03<frosch123>i wouldn't be able to explain how to talk either
16:03<Tuhin>do u guys lay single , double or quad rail tracks?
16:04<frosch123>Pikka: don't look into the windows of the houses
16:04<frosch123>Tuhin: you build exactly those rails which are needed for the amount of trains
16:04<Pikka>frosch123, I want to see the spots on the engineer's nose.
16:04<Tuhin>maybe railtracks criss crossign the map and connecting evthing to that
16:04<frosch123>if you have only one train, you only need one track
16:04<andythenorth>Pikka: how about voxels?
16:04<frosch123>if you have 2 you need one track with a small sections of two tracks every now and then
16:05<frosch123>if you have 1000 trains you need 10 tracks
16:05<Pikka>frosch123, haven't you seen how the pros play TTD?
16:05*andythenorth always uses one train per track
16:05<andythenorth>that's pro
16:05<Pikka>you need to join every city on the map with quad tracks before you even think about building a train
16:05<Tuhin>yes in old games i played i had many many many trains... i used to play with trains only....
16:05<frosch123>Pikka: douchebags build 64 tracks and run 2 trains on them
16:06<Tuhin>ok, so why experts thinks Airplanes are bad
16:06<frosch123>Tuhin: generally you should have about 50% of all tracks covered in trains all of the time
16:06<Tuhin>i wanted to play different after years of gap and wanted to ignore railtracks building
16:06<frosch123>Tuhin: you can play one game with aircrafts just fine
16:07<frosch123>but it has no replay value
16:07<frosch123>there are no choices, it's like children monopoly
16:07<frosch123>roll dice, forced buy or pay
16:07<Tuhin>i will play to compete with the AIs
16:07<Tuhin>i enabled 14 AIs
16:07<Tuhin>1024X 1024 map
16:08<frosch123>better play on 256x256 with 4 ais
16:08<frosch123>your computer won't handle 1024x1024 with 14 ais after half an hour
16:08<frosch123>any you will never see them anyway, since they build on the opposite site of the map
16:08<Tuhin>i have quad core PhenomII
16:09<frosch123>yeah, but you would need 256 core thorion
16:09<Tuhin>hmmm so TTD isn't multicore optimised yet?
16:10<frosch123>does not matter on that scale
16:10<Pinkbeast>Pretty sure I've played games that big and I don't have a tremendously studly machine.
16:10<Tuhin>256/256 seems too small :|
16:10<frosch123>you can easily outgrow any computational power by making a game bigger
16:10<frosch123>Tuhin: that's why it hard
16:10<frosch123>you only compete in limited space
16:11<Tuhin>how about 256/256 with 14 AI
16:11<+glx>256² is not that small
16:11<frosch123>Tuhin: generally, extreme values (low or high) are always bad
16:11<Tuhin>I am from Civ3 and "Supreme Commander : Forged alliance"
16:11<frosch123>in about all situations of life
16:12<+glx>128x512 or 512x128 can be nice too
16:12<Tuhin>ok new game will be 256
16:12<Pinkbeast>With the default vehicle numbers per company, though, most of that map will go untouched.
16:12<Eddi|zuHause><Tuhin> Linux is way better than Windows, but Windows is more popular coz most ppl can use windoz <-- postulate: most people that use windows don't actually know how to use windows
16:13<Tuhin>Eddi|zuHause, yes its true... its just more can do things they get chance to learn.. in windoz
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>but that was not the actual question
16:13<Tuhin>whats the default vehicle numbers
16:13<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the only true knowledge there is, is knowing what you don't know
16:14<Pinkbeast> A few hundred per company. Conversely, with a lot of AIs on a small map, you can forget about using RVs. :-/
16:14<frosch123>you can increase limits later in game
16:14<Tuhin>RV = ??
16:14<frosch123>nothing to worry abuot at start
16:14<Pinkbeast>Road Vehicle
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that just produces an infinite number of knowledge levels
16:15<andythenorth>when are RVs being removed?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>and hopefully a countable one :)
16:15<Tuhin>hmm i have to disabe road vehicles then
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: when you delete the game
16:16<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i am sure it is equivalent to the axiom of choice
16:16<andythenorth>everybody hates RVs
16:16<andythenorth>they should be reimplemented as trains
16:16<fjb>Roads should be reimplemented.
16:17<frosch123>yeah, rv should be able to drive into ferries, which are then loaded onto trains
16:17*fjb votes for it.
16:17<Tuhin>and then into cargo planes
16:17<andythenorth>trains should be able to fly
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16:17<Tuhin>and teleport
16:18<frosch123>flying boats and swimming planes are far more common
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: no, it's more than that, because if you include the axiom of choice in your model, then you went up one stage of "knowledgeness", but there is still things that you cannot prove or disprove (and thus cannot know)
16:18<Tuhin>yeah i saw more aliens on road today than humans
16:18<fjb>And teleportation already happens (but only people and ggods).
16:19<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, maybe i need the skill to teach someone to know what they don't know
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: and thus you create a hierarchy
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>no step in this hierarchy can ever be complete (->Gödel)
16:19<Tuhin>i can't find "Fish2 " or Squid in downloadable contents
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>=> the hierarchy is infinite
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16:21<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't know whether that hierarchy has countable number or uncountable number
16:23<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but infinite doesn't mean you can't know the answer; the sum of 1+2+3+4+... until infinity has a finite answer
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>and it gets worse if you split up "this cannot be proven (and we can prove that)" and "this has not been proven yet (but it's not sure if it can"
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16:24<frosch123>Rubidium: there are infinite many types of infinity .p
16:25<frosch123>each of them infinity more than the previous one
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and without the axiom of choice you can't even prove whether that's all the infinities
16:25<frosch123>and still people think they know when one is more than the other :p
16:26<@Rubidium>luckily there's an infinite number of finite numbers ;)
16:27<frosch123>the axiom of choice is that kind of stuff which you plant on first year students, and noone will notice what you planted on them
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure we discussed the axiom of choice in school
16:27<frosch123>if they then happen to pick set theory in a later year, they may discover how much they were fooled
16:28<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but noone understood what it really means
16:28<frosch123>everyone said "yeah, sounds intuitive"
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>we also had this infinity stuff like hilbert's hotel in like 8th grade
16:29<frosch123>while there is pure evil 1 pico meter below the surface
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16:30<Eddi|zuHause>there was also an "axiom of choice" song to the tune of "there's a hole in the bucket"
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>well, basically the axiom of choice is the "god" of mathematics
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>some people believe in it, some people don't
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>there are serious wars between both kinds of people
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>and it can't be proven to exist
16:33<frosch123>yup, that's probably the best analogy :)
16:34<frosch123>even in itself it claims that something exists under all circumstances, even though there is not a single example for a non-trivial case
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is that our reality is finite, so it's really difficult to make analogies once you surpass a level of abstractness where the axiom of choice even begins to matter
16:37<frosch123>yeah, that's the lucky thing
16:37<frosch123>it does not affect anything reallifeish :p
16:37<@planetmaker>hm... my OpenTTD currently eats 2.7GByte of memory :D
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>every case not abstract enough to make an analogy doesn't need the axiom of choice to prove/disprove it
16:37<frosch123>planetmaker: 2GB spritecache is the default for 32bpp, isn't it?
16:38<@planetmaker>dunno, might be :)
16:38<frosch123>or was it the maximum?
16:38<andythenorth>Tuhin: Squid is only visible for download if you use a recent nightly build of openttd
16:38<@planetmaker>it suddenly started to update the screen only on rare occasions when I move the window
16:39<@planetmaker>has been running for (real life) days...
16:39*andythenorth -> bed
16:39<andythenorth>good night
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16:42<Tuhin>openGFX eats more ram?
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>you use more RAM if you use a 32bpp NewGRF or baseset
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>OpenGFX is 8bpp
16:44<frosch123>or scripts, or buggy ottd :p
16:44<Tuhin>i downloaded all OpenGFX
16:45<Tuhin>which year should i start? 1900 or 1800?
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>don't start in 1800
16:46<Tuhin>when airplanes appears? 1905?
16:46<Pinkbeast>Certainly not if you plan an aircraft game. :-/
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>depends on your NewGRF set
16:47<Tuhin>i decided to play rails too
16:47<Tuhin>i downoaded what i was suggested above
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>there may be zeppelins early on if you use AV8
16:47<Tuhin>i got AV*
16:47<Pinkbeast>Well, rails in any set don't start until about 1830 for obvious reasons, and I think it's much later in OpenGFX rails
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>just start a game, look into the vehicle selection, and decide if that's enough to get started
16:48<skyem123>Only one steam engine is in 1945.
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>NewGRFs don't only have to be downloaded, they also have to be set up
16:49<Tuhin>i see nothing new...
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>go to NewGRF settings, and look if you actually activated stuff
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>the default start year is 1950, there it's pretty certain that you have vehicles. most NewGRFs start around 1920, only few start earlier
16:51<Tuhin>i dont see any newGRF stuff ... in NewGRF settings
16:51<Tuhin>I m using Portable OpenTTD
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>then go back to the main menu, and add some there
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>it should give you a list of stuff you activated, and a list of stuff you downloaded, move stuff from the downloaded list to the activated list
16:52<Tuhin>OpenGFX Trains and NUTS works together?
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>not really
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>you should only use one GRF of each kind (trains, planes, industries, ...)
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>only stations and objects you can reasonably combine
16:53<Pinkbeast>Cough murmur I usually combine ukrs2 and 2cc trains :-)
16:55<frosch123>you can combine vehicle sets if they focus on different things, like pax vs. cargo
16:55<frosch123>or rv vs. tram
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16:56<Tuhin>enabled AV8, HEQS, Open Airports as objects, OpenGFX: Industry, Landscape Road Vehicles, Trains,Airports, Trees, BigUI , WorlCities Town Names, Base Costs Mod, FISH, Industrial Stations REnewal
16:56<Tuhin>i didnt add NUTS
16:57<Pikka>we really need extra zoom levels in the map
16:57<Pikka>especially with cargodist, trying to look at the links, can't see bugger all. It's too tiny.
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>you should probably leave out base costs mod
16:57<Tuhin>so any conflicts in my selection^
16:58<frosch123>basecost mod is pointless unless you set parameters
16:58<Tuhin>i want to see cost of airports, depots etc
16:58<frosch123>that's not what it does :p
16:58<frosch123>it allows changing price factors
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>it allows to double or halve prices
16:58<frosch123>making stuff cheaper or more expensive
16:59<Tuhin>did i miss to add anything?
16:59<frosch123>you may want to check the parameters of ogfx+industries
16:59<frosch123>just to know what options are available
16:59<frosch123>not neccessarily changing them though
16:59<@planetmaker>Tuhin, whether you need BigGUI is questionable. Trees... dunno ,maybe :)
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>is there no OpenGFX+Houses?
17:00<frosch123>and you need to enable the town names actually a second time via game options :p
17:00<@planetmaker>indeed, there's not. Nor +Planes nor +Ships
17:00<@planetmaker>nor +Tracks
17:00<frosch123>(the biggest interface gotcha we have :p)
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17:00<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you have to go to game options and select the new town names
17:00<Tuhin>BigGUI = i have 15 inch laptop screen here
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17:01<Eddi|zuHause>you should leave out biggui, or edit openttd.cfg to put it into [newgrf-static]
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17:01<Tuhin>@planetmaker , i need OpenGFX+Houses, Planes+Ships ??
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>Tuhin: no.
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>Tuhin: these are not created yet, there is nothing to get
17:02<Tuhin>i thought they will use more RAM
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>don't worry about RAM
17:03<Pikka>more RAM, vicar?
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17:03<Tuhin>I got PCB Server... forgot to type
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what that is
17:04<frosch123>sounds like one of the many weird city game scripts
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17:04<Tuhin>PCB Server gave this link
17:05<frosch123>yeah, that is some site which runs competitive multiplayer servers with some league/ranging system
17:05<Tuhin>ok removing that
17:06<Tuhin>where do i play with noobs like me?
17:06<frosch123>90% of servers are empty
17:06<Andreas>btpro or n-ice are the biggest
17:06<frosch123>8% of servers have trolls
17:06<frosch123>2% are maintained
17:07<Tuhin>which AIs to get?
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17:07<Eddi|zuHause>one of each, and then throw out the ones that fail often
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>try not to use two AIs of the same type
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>they get in each others way too often
17:08<Andreas>frosch123, what is the last time you played a multiplayer game on novapolis/n-ice/bt-pro?
17:08<frosch123>i am no competitive player
17:08<Tuhin>i got - AdmiralAI, Chopper, CluelessPlus, DictatorAI, EpicTrans,NoCAB, PAXLink,Rythorn AirlineAI, SimpleAI,SynTrans,TerronAI,TeshiNet, TransAI
17:09<frosch123>and i am not interested in pax transport, nor city building
17:09<frosch123>so, all 3 of them are pretty damn uninteresting to me
17:09<Andreas>well then maybe you should not discourage people from trying mp servers by saying that only 2% are good...
17:09<Andreas>a lot of people do like them
17:10<frosch123>i didn't say that, those 3 belong to the 2%
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>Tuhin: there's a (probably outdated) "comparison of AIs" page on the wiki
17:10<Tuhin>Eddi|zuHause, yes i downoaded ais seeing that comparison
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>Tuhin: but i don't think it really matters
17:11<frosch123>but ok, maybe 2% was too low, could be 10% :p
17:11<Tuhin>which GameScripts r good
17:11<frosch123>only 50% of servers are empty currently
17:11<Tuhin>i want the cities grow without shipping them goods....
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>Tuhin: don't use gamescripts then
17:12<Tuhin>CityDomination sounds fun?
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>all game scripts with "City" in their name probably require to ship goods to them :p
17:14<Tuhin>hmm i can change play style
17:15<Tuhin>ok will tryGS later
17:16<Tuhin>where do i get this graphics
17:17<frosch123>no idea, i don't recognise them
17:17<Tuhin>some1 here gave that link
17:18<frosch123>then it might be unreleased
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>those are not done yet
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>they're made by Pikka like two days ago :p
17:18<Tuhin>they r nice
17:19<Pikka>more like two hours ago, Eddi. :P
17:20<Tuhin>hmm have to play in dektop ...laptop have only 2GB and multitasking
17:21<Tuhin>desktop have 4GB...enough to play 32bp
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17:27<Eddi|zuHause>you can reduce the sprite cache size in openttd.cfg, but if it doesn't suffice, performance will be really bad
17:29<frosch123>the spritecache reduces itself to only use 50% of memory atm ost
17:30<Tuhin>what do i do with HQ?
17:30<Tuhin>any feature added to HQ?
17:31<MNIM>Yes. It is pretty!
17:32<Tuhin>in Capitalism2 , u can do things at HQ
17:32<Tuhin>like brand advertisement, settign own salary
17:33<Tuhin>training workers to make better drivers?
17:33<Tuhin>Customer RElations
17:33<Tuhin>maybe these can be added to the HQ
17:33<Tuhin>play "Capitalism2" and u will get the idea
17:34<Tuhin>i think there should be option to issue shares
17:34<Tuhin>and buy /sell shares
17:34<Andreas>you can buy/sell shares allready
17:36<Tuhin>i saw the button greyed out
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17:39<Andreas>then it is disabled in advanced settings
17:39<Taede>or the company is not mature enough
17:39<fjb>The HQ accepts and generates passengers.
17:40<Taede>is it not disabled untill the company has had a chance to establish itself?
17:40<Andreas>go to "competitors' and then enable "allow buying shares
17:40<Andreas>"yeah, it says: 'when they reach a certain age"
17:40<Tuhin>oops plane price is 10 times more than normal now!
17:40<Andreas>what age though?
17:41<Andreas>hehe no, I mean company age
17:41<Tuhin>1 day :P
17:41<Andreas>yeah av8 is a bit more expensive than 'normal' aircraft
17:41<Andreas>also better balanced
17:41<Tuhin>competitor company is 1 day old and i want to buy his share:)
17:42<Tuhin>av8 killed my fun
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>companies must be at least 6 years old
17:42<Tuhin>i built 4 airports and now found the plane costs 10 times more...
17:43<Tuhin>do i get 10 times the revenue/profit from planes?
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>probably not
17:43<Tuhin>then why price is increased
17:43<Tuhin>its unbalanced
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>to make planes less of a money printing machine
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>also there are smaller/cheaper planes and bigger/more expensive planes
17:45<@planetmaker>even no planes is not unbalanced :)
17:45<Tuhin>Douglas DC3 costs 40k and carries only 40 passengers
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17:46<Tuhin>49k =price
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and how much does a train with one engine and one wagon cost?
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>and how much do you have to pay for rails?
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>and what is "balanced" now?
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>also: AV8 assumes you play with increased plane speed, so the planes are 4 times faster than in the original game
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>(in the original game, a plane at 800km/h moved as fast as a train at 200km/h)
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>thus you actually do earn more
17:49<Tuhin>now it says my DC3 cant reach destination
17:49<Tuhin>out of range
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>yes, planes also have a maximum distance in AV8
17:49<@planetmaker>good night
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>bigger planes have longer distance
17:49<Tuhin>these realisms r good for "Airine Tycoon 2" that i have played....not in this
17:50<Tuhin>"Airline Tycoon"
17:50<Tuhin>which mod increases rail price and realism
17:50<frosch123>i guess it is meant to add more variety
17:50<Tuhin>i will disable that rail realism
17:51<frosch123>if capacity is the only criterion for an aircraft, you have only one choice to build
17:51<Tuhin>how do i count 320 tile range for planes
17:52<Tuhin>i think the AV8 makers hates planes and made using planes absurd
17:52<Tuhin>and impossible
17:52<Tuhin>i already bought 3 DC3s and find they can reach the airports
17:53<frosch123>you wanted it harder
17:53<frosch123>didn't you? :p
17:54<Tuhin>not harder, i wanted to see real airplane and train graphics
17:55<frosch123>if you want real ones, you could try "world airliners set"
17:55<frosch123>it has like 50 planes which are all the same, just with different reallife company liveries
17:56<frosch123>(propably exagerating)
17:57<Tuhin>ok thanks
17:57<Pikka>I have to admit
17:57<Pikka>I'm probably going to leave plane ranges out of Av9... D:
17:57<Pikka>they can be a bit annoying :P
17:58<frosch123>and stock pile limits and mine excavation out of pbi 2.0 ?
17:58<Eddi|zuHause><mode=andy>planes are boring, we should remove planes from the game</mode>
17:59<frosch123>we should have more experimental ottd versions
17:59<frosch123>we are piling features which someone thougth would be fun
17:59<frosch123>but turn out boring after a while
17:59<frosch123>long life the patchpacks!
17:59<Pikka>frosch123: I don't know, I'm putting off thinking about industries for as long as possible :D
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>you mean a dozen patchpacks that we have now are not enough?
18:00<Tuhin>Pikka, add the drone deivery planes that is introducing in 2015
18:00<frosch123>could be an addition to the taxi grf :p
18:00<frosch123>helicoper, capacity 1 :p
18:01<frosch123>hmm, the taxi could fit 4, right?
18:01<frosch123>the pizza thingie had 1
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18:14<Eddi|zuHause>"In Deutschland leiden immer mehr Menschen an Eisenmangel. Besonders betroffen sind die Regionen Hüttenstadt und Ach."
18:14<Tuhin>DC3 is totally unprofitable even when loaded fully
18:15<Tuhin>5 airports and 4 DC3..... lossss
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>Tuhin: check the planespeed setting
18:16<Tuhin>cant find the option
18:17<Tuhin>show parameters ahve 4 on/off options
18:17<Tuhin>using AV8 2.21
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>in the advanced settings
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>not in the newgrf settings
18:18<Tuhin>i see ! mark with AV8
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18:20<Tuhin>yes made 1/1 and now making profit
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18:22<Tuhin>anyway, have to abandon this game
18:22<Tuhin>the range limit is too much to bear
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>well the DC3 is not really known for nonstop cross-atlantic flights
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18:24<Tuhin>the map size is 512/512 and i wasn't even trying to pass 30% of 512
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>note that all changes to settings you've done ingame you have to repeat on the main menu, or they won't affect new grames
18:25<Tuhin>i wil remove AV8 and play
18:26<Tuhin>i sent a plane to an airport, changed the route and it says cant reach destination/out of range
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18:27<Eddi|zuHause>have to use intermediate stops for refilling
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20:04<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Sat Jan 18 00:00:34 2014