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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-01-20

---Logopened Mon Jan 20 00:00:36 2014
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02:59<dihedral>good morning
03:00<V453000>hy
03:02<Xaroth|Work>o/
03:03<@planetmaker>moin
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05:25<peter1138>urgh
05:25<peter1138>remember my password list?
05:25<__ln__>nope
05:25<Xaroth|Work>what did you do -now- ?
05:26<peter1138>heh
05:26<peter1138>some ludicrous password policy: password must be picked from this list
05:26<peter1138>last digit of the password is sequential o_O
05:27<peter1138>so much for secure password policies
05:27<peter1138>A-Z0-9 :S
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06:34<LordAro>http://xkcd.com/1319/
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>that does not really match my experience
06:51<LordAro>perhaps not the ongoing development bit, but the other parts match mine :)
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you just haven't learned how to do it properly :)
07:00<LordAro>:p
07:00<LordAro>that is quite possible
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09:42<fjb>Moin.
09:42<@planetmaker>moin
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09:51<fjb>Everybody frozen?
09:51<Kucki>jep
09:53<fjb>It's quite quiet here today.
09:54<Kucki>hm, first time beein here
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13:24<@Belugas>hello
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13:43<Wolf01>hello o/
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26269 /trunk/src/lang (danish.txt norwegian_nynorsk.txt) (2014-01-20 18:45:11 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>danish - 10 changes by manframe
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_nynorsk - 24 changes by 2rB
13:45<frosch123>hi Wolf01
13:47<Xaroth|Work>o/
13:49<fjb>Moin Belugas
13:49<fjb>Moin Wolf01
13:49<fjb>Quak frosch123
13:50<fjb>Moin Xaroth|Work
13:52<Xaroth|Work>o/ fjb
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14:38<fjb>When starting a new project, wich version control system would be preferable? Mercurail or Git or something else?
14:40<Xaroth|Work>I personally prefer git
14:40<@planetmaker>I personally prefer mercurial
14:40<Xaroth|Work>then again, I run a gitlab system for my own projects, and use github for all public projects
14:40<Xaroth|Work>so I'm quite.. biased :P
14:40<@planetmaker>then again, I run rhodecode system for my own projects and use it for all public projects. So I'm quite biased :P
14:40<fjb>I don't mind being biased, the question is why you prefer one over the other.
14:41<Xaroth|Work>:)
14:41<Xaroth|Work>I use gitlab because it's the 'private' version of github; the github client works with any git repository, so that makes it easy to use either one
14:41<Xaroth|Work>gitlab also has a CI system for all my unit test needs
14:42<andythenorth>if you are using devzone for an openttd project, use mercurial, it's well supported
14:42<andythenorth>if you are working elsewhere, and it's not an existing hg environment, use git
14:42<Xaroth|Work>redmine works with git just fine as well
14:42<andythenorth>especially if you want to go to github or whatever
14:43<@planetmaker>bitbucket works nicely and natively with mercurial.
14:43<@planetmaker>I prefer mercurial as I don't have to dig into the internals of it to get things done
14:43<Xaroth|Work>I have the same with git :P
14:43<fjb>It would be a new project, independend from OpenTTD.
14:44<@planetmaker>fjb, do you have experience with mercurial or git? Then choose the one you're familiar with
14:44<Xaroth|Work>and what do you expect your target audience will be
14:44<@planetmaker>If not... mercurial has the IMHO slightly saner interface
14:44<Xaroth|Work>wait what? :P
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14:44<Xaroth|Work>interface and sanity thereof are highly personal preference
14:44<fjb>I have no experience with either of them.
14:44<@planetmaker>with svn?
14:46<fjb>I'm using Bazaar-NG right now. But that switched more or less over to maintanace mode.
14:46<Xaroth|Work>:|
14:46<Xaroth|Work>I was dreading you'd mention that monstrosity
14:46<andythenorth>bzr :)
14:47<andythenorth>FIRS started in bzr
14:47<@planetmaker>yeah
14:47<fjb>It worked well.
14:47<Xaroth|Work>it's so slow :|
14:50<fjb>Not really slow anymore. That was some years ago. But that is not the problem. How is platform indepence regardind line endings, or things like file renams?
14:50<@planetmaker>hg is based on python. Whereever that runs, hg runs. binaries for all systems readily available
14:51<@planetmaker>git is compiled for all, too
14:53<@planetmaker>if you've existing bzr repos, it's easy to convert them to hg
14:54<fjb>I know. But how are renames of files or directoriies handled, or splitting part of the source tree into a library?
14:54<@planetmaker>hg mv a b
14:55<@planetmaker>there's the subrepository extension - most suitable to put a library in a separate repo which is included by that means
14:55<fjb>So I have to move everithing from within hg, not by other tools?
14:55<@Rubidium>fjb: RMS has chosen git over hg as replacement for bzr; maybe his reasoning could be used in your case as well? http://lwn.net/Articles/579363/
14:55<@planetmaker>how would *any* scm know that it's not a new file if you don't tell it that the file moved?
14:55<fjb>The subrepository thing sound interesting. Is there something like that for git?
14:56<@Rubidium>planetmaker: any sscm would know ;)
14:56<fjb>Rubidium: Thank you. I will read it.
14:58*Rubidium kinda favours hg as DSCM at the moment as it seems easier, though that's probably because I'm still quite in the SVN mindset
15:00<@planetmaker>I disagree with the assessment that "mercurial doesn't look healthy"... https://code.facebook.com/posts/218678814984400/scaling-mercurial-at-facebook/
15:02<andythenorth>mercurial is fine, git is not for everybody
15:02<andythenorth>but git has won
15:02<andythenorth>doesn't mean hg has lost
15:03<fjb>bzr lost.
15:03<@planetmaker>pretty much, yeah ^^
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>if you move a file by means other than hg itself, "hg addremove" will try to match a deletion with a creation and record it as move
15:08<@planetmaker>hm :)
15:09<fjb>Nice.
15:10<andythenorth>I should learn that
15:10<andythenorth>I always forget and hg nags me with '!'
15:11<@planetmaker>addremove adds everything not tracked. I find that usually more hassle than gain
15:11<@planetmaker>(and removes everything tracked but not present any longer)
15:12<@planetmaker>well. everything not tracked and not ignored
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>well that's kinda the point :)
15:13<andythenorth>I wish I could articulate why I have come to prefer git
15:13<andythenorth>but I can't :
15:14<andythenorth>:P
15:14<andythenorth>git is frankly weird, and seems dangerously explosive if you don't know what you're doing
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15:15<Xaroth|Work>fjb: git doesn't track file paths, if you move a file and commit, it'll detect you've moved it
15:16<fjb>Xaroth|Work: Thank you.
15:17<Xaroth|Work>and like hg, there are some do's and don'ts with git, but the same can be said about svn tbh
15:17<Xaroth|Work>it's made with the linux kernel in mind, they have some pretty weird demands for a VCS system
15:18<@planetmaker>every system has it's things it works well with and others which it doesn't
15:18<Xaroth|Work>yep
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15:18<andythenorth>with git, much more so than hg, I have found the following essential:
15:18<Xaroth|Work>both use compression and delta storage, so that's quite equal
15:19<andythenorth>(1) never ever ever just type in advice from a stack overflow article, or someone's blog. Go read the Red Bean book first
15:19<Xaroth|Work>wait what?
15:19<andythenorth>(2) never ever ever ever ever try to do complex rebases
15:19<Xaroth|Work>i've only once read a page or three on the red bean book :|
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15:20<andythenorth>Xaroth|Work: do you read the git help or such instead?
15:20<andythenorth>my point being, there is a lot of advice that is not just inaccurate, but dangerous, and gets you yelled at by other people cleaning your mess
15:20<fjb>I'm no friend of a rebase at all. You only lose track of your mistakes that way.
15:20<Xaroth|Work>andythenorth: pretty much, but I also don't favour rebases
15:21<Xaroth|Work>(then agian, the github client does it for me when i really need to)
15:21<@planetmaker>hard to get around some form of rebase if you develop a patch queue for a project
15:22<@planetmaker>or if on your own project you have different braches with different features. But there you can easier use merges
15:22<@planetmaker>and rebasing for patch queues can be done, too, by means of merge when done
15:22<Xaroth|Work>with git you can easily merge across forks anyhow
15:22<Xaroth|Work>patch queues in git usually come in the form of pull requests
15:22<@planetmaker>with hg as well
15:23<@planetmaker>with any dvcs they do
15:23<@planetmaker>patch queues is svn style :)
15:23<Xaroth|Work>yep
15:23<Xaroth|Work>and nothing sucks more than patch queues that don't apply easily :P
15:24<@planetmaker>yeah :)
15:24<Xaroth|Work>but tbqfh, there's not -that- much different between hg and git; both have similar approaches to a lot of things.. the main difference is just -how- they make the users do it
15:24<fjb>Usually I'm working on each feature in its own branch and mege it together when a feature is ready.
15:25<@planetmaker>works with either
15:25<Xaroth|Work>fjb: that'll work, np
15:26<fjb>And is there something like that subproject thing that planetmaker mentioned in git? It could be very useful.
15:26<@planetmaker>I'll never get over git forgetting revs though after some time which are not a tag
15:26<Xaroth|Work>wait what?
15:26<Xaroth|Work>@fjb: there is, but it's not widely used
15:27<fjb>Git is forgetting revisions?
15:27<Xaroth|Work>never seen that happen
15:27<Xaroth|Work>heck, git revisions are the main source of it's security :|
15:27<@planetmaker>Xaroth, create a branch with a name. Update to another rev, commit something and give it the same name
15:28<@planetmaker>then without reflog there's no means to get back to your previous branch
15:28<@planetmaker>and it will be garbage collected after some (decent) time
15:28<Xaroth|Work>as in, create the same branch twice?
15:28<Xaroth|Work>or what, exactly?
15:28<@planetmaker>moving the branch tag, yes
15:29<Xaroth|Work>I don't get what steps you did exactly, but the second I try to push a tag or branch that's already known in the system, git will start screaming bloody murder
15:29<@planetmaker>dangling commits will eventually be gone
15:29<@planetmaker>I'm not talking about push or anything
15:30<@planetmaker>a commit w/o any ref to it
15:30<@planetmaker>*ref pointing to it
15:31<@planetmaker>I wish I find that video again where it's explained... git 101 or so
15:31<Xaroth|Work>that should only happen if you do a hard reset
15:31<Xaroth|Work>and you shouldn't be doing those unless you know what you're doing
15:31<Xaroth|Work>and you can easily retrieve those, until a gc is executed
15:32<Xaroth|Work>git fsck --lost-found will locate dangling commits
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15:32<Xaroth|Work>at which point you can merge that with your current head
15:32<Xaroth|Work>and get your changes back
15:32<Xaroth|Work>(it'll even do the standard conflict resolution if needed)
15:33<@planetmaker>well, you can get easily obviously into a state Jenkins repos got a few weeks ago ;)
15:33<Xaroth|Work>that's because jenkins, as many other CI systems, do hard resets when they shouldn't
15:34<@planetmaker>that was not the CI itself. But a commit to github...
15:34<@planetmaker>by a person
15:34<Xaroth|Work>o_O
15:35<Xaroth|Work>I'd have to see what happened then to see what went wrong
15:35<@planetmaker>http://www.reddit.com/comments/1qefox
15:35<Xaroth|Work>oh -THAT-
15:35<Xaroth|Work>yes, that was a giant fail from both github and jenkin's side
15:35<Xaroth|Work>github for allowing jenkins to push
15:35<@planetmaker>(yes, different than what I mentioned before)
15:36<Xaroth|Work>and jenkins for being idiots to push forced :\
15:36<@planetmaker>Xaroth, jenkins didn't push...
15:36<Xaroth|Work>no, one of their devs did
15:36<@planetmaker>yeah
15:36<Xaroth|Work>so yeah, if you give somebody admin rights to your system, and he does a rm -rf / , things will go tits up
15:37<@planetmaker>a bit different. It's only commit rights
15:37<@planetmaker>commit rights to remove history
15:37<@planetmaker>by remote command
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15:38<Xaroth|Work>it's a bit more complicated than just commit rights
15:39<Xaroth|Work>the jenkins-ci plugin has certain access, that people grant to their repositories.. of those access, they have the ability to do some minor modification of things in order to do their jenkins thing
15:39<Xaroth|Work>what they didn't know, is that they had access to push --force
15:39<Xaroth|Work>which forces the overwriting of reflogs
15:40<Xaroth|Work>so you can force a repository to a completely different state
15:40<Xaroth|Work>even when the sanity checks tell you not to do that
15:40<Xaroth|Work>(i.e. when something has made it into the commit tree that you want to be wiped out of history)
15:40<Xaroth|Work>(or when you want to change the name of an author)
15:40<Xaroth|Work>git doesn't like that, normally, because you shouldn't be doing that
15:40<Xaroth|Work>BUT, git allows one to tell git to 'sudo make me a sandwich'
15:41<Xaroth|Work>by means of the --force arg
15:41<Xaroth|Work>now what happened, is that the jenkins dev accidentally triggered a forced push on 150+ repositories
15:41<Xaroth|Work>and realised too late, that they actually had access to do that
15:41<Xaroth|Work>at which point, of those repositories, many were set back in time
15:42<Xaroth|Work>now the actual commits weren't 'gone', but all commits made to after the point in time where jenkins pushed to, were dangling
15:42<Xaroth|Work>so they had to figure out which ref ID that was, to restore it
15:43<Xaroth|Work>to summarize, derp from jenkins (dev), and derp from github for allowing said jenkins derp.
15:43<Xaroth|Work>(and every was restored, to my knowledge)
15:45<fjb>I think that should not bother me that much. I know that I should know what I'm doing when I'm forcing stuff.
15:47<Xaroth|Work>well, if any, you can trust in the fact that most screwups can be fixed
15:47<Xaroth|Work>(if you know how)
15:48<Xaroth|Work>each commit ref is also a checksum, so if you ever get data corruption, git can detect that (and with a LOT of effort (seriously, just get a backup or something..), you can track it down to which file in which commit got corrupted, and restore that)
15:48<Xaroth|Work>and I believe hg has something similar-ish to that as well
15:48<Xaroth|Work>safety first
15:49<@planetmaker>with hg there is no way at all to remove anything from a remote repo
15:50<@planetmaker>you cannot rewrite history via push with hg
15:51<Xaroth|Work>yes you can
15:51<Xaroth|Work>hg convert :)
15:51<@planetmaker>if you force push with hg, you simply add new heads (unnamed branches)
15:51<@planetmaker>you cannot convert a remote repo
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>i always do "hg pull && hg rebase" when push tells me it would create another head
15:53<@planetmaker>exactly
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>that rewrites the local history, so i don't have spurious merge commits
15:54<@planetmaker>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ffBJ4sVUb4 <-- this is what I meant initially, at 1:25:30 and the next minute about dangling commits and forgetting them,
15:54<@planetmaker>which only can be accessed via reflog
15:54<@planetmaker>hg heads are nicer there
15:54<@planetmaker>(rubi once dug out that video - quite useful one)
15:56<@planetmaker>1:27:56 actually: it takes like two weeks to throw away the detached commit
15:56<Xaroth|Work>it even tells you what is going to happen and how to fix it o-O
15:56<@planetmaker>yes
15:56<@planetmaker>it does
15:56<@planetmaker>but given my frequency to work on different projects, two weeks could easily pass before I return somewhere. It would be gone
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15:57<Xaroth|Work>that's like having a "Warning, Slippery when wet" sign next to a "Warning, wet, ground is slippery" sign
15:57<@planetmaker>with hg I just commit and update. No action required
15:57<Xaroth|Work>if you fall, you should have read the signs :p
15:57<@planetmaker>nothing wet and slippery in these situations with hg :)
15:57<@planetmaker>just normal workflow, easily seen with hg heads anytime later
15:57<Xaroth|Work>that's because hg is trying to think for you :)
15:58<Xaroth|Work>as I said before, git is made for kernel devs initially
15:58<Xaroth|Work>if they do 'sudo make me a sandwich', they expect a sandwich
15:58<Xaroth|Work>hg just strips out any notion of sudo, and checks itself whether or not people have access to make, or let alone a sandwich
16:17<fjb>Now I have many stuff to read and think about. Thank you.
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16:17<Xaroth|Work>np :)
16:18<andythenorth>@seen alberth
16:18<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: alberth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 1 hour, 4 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Alberth> hi hi
16:19<@planetmaker>welcome. Also look at http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/BeginnersGuides :)
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16:24*fjb is reading beginners guides of Mercurial and Git.
16:27<fjb>And I need to find out how both are integrated into Eclipse and the like. Yes, I'm using warm water to shower. My monitor is not big enough for the open Vim and shell windows I would need otherwise.
16:28<Xaroth|Work>from what I know from the dev team, there is a quite elaborate git plugin in eclipse
16:29<Xaroth|Work>though some prefer the github client or tortoisegit (context menus under windows) over it
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16:30<andythenorth>I found that using a graphical git client was unpleasant
16:30<andythenorth>it was very magical
16:30<andythenorth>I had no idea what was actually being done
16:30<Xaroth|Work>that's a matter of taste, tbqfh
16:30<andythenorth>yeah
16:31<@planetmaker>the only time I prefer some graphical feedback is when I need an overview over how branches go
16:31<@planetmaker>what belongs to where
16:31<@planetmaker>but definitely taste
16:31<andythenorth>I like to know (a bit) how stuff works
16:31<Xaroth|Work>I like the simplicity the github client has, no fuss, just click on what you want and it does it
16:32<andythenorth>I am -1 on clicking 'commit all changes' then watch progress box :)
16:32<Xaroth|Work>until it doesn't get what you want, at which point there's a separate git shell for it
16:32<fjb>I just need Eclipse for getting the coding done. But a plugin for a vcs would be nice so they do not interfere with each other.
16:32*andythenorth used eclipse once, for a bit
16:32<Xaroth|Work>fjb: there should be plugins for git, and I would find it odd if hg didn't have one either
16:33<fjb>Both have a plugin. The question is how useful they are.
16:33*planetmaker has not much experience with eclipse. Didn't find my way around there
16:34<andythenorth>I am happier being very unproductive in a text editor
16:34<@planetmaker>:D
16:34<andythenorth>although I did recently turn on 'show unbalanced braces'
16:35<andythenorth>that's quite advanced :P
16:35<andythenorth>and occasionally I use 'de-educate quotes' instead of doing it with find and replace
16:36<andythenorth>mostly I find that the slow thing is the thinking, not the editor
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>that video is fun... "do not rebase" ... "i show you how to rebase now" :p
16:39<@planetmaker>yeah :)
16:39<@planetmaker>well, it's a quite good video, IMHO
16:39<Xaroth|Work>it's the same as sex ed.. they tell you not to do it, but they at least prepare you for the moment when you will
16:40<@planetmaker>they tell you not to do it? strange places
16:40<MNIM>Xaroth|Work: well, at least in civilized countries.
16:40<MNIM>planetmaker: not in civilized countries!
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16:54<@Terkhen>good night
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16:56<Xaroth|Work>nn
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17:14*frosch123 throws ENoSense
17:14<frosch123>do squirrel fnuctions need a "return" ?
17:14<NTG>Is this the openTTD subreddit channel?
17:14<frosch123>no
17:14<frosch123>that is #/r/openttd
17:14<frosch123>or so
17:15<NTG>Thanks. I will try that
17:16<NTG>Ah, that does it.
17:16<NTG>Thanks
17:16<frosch123>i learned from that channel that "/" is allowed in channel names :p
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17:18<NTG>That is why I could not find it. I though those characters weren't allowed.
17:18<andythenorth>bed for me
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17:34<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26270 trunk/src/script/api/script_town.cpp (2014-01-20 22:34:22 UTC)
17:34<@DorpsGek>-Fix-ish: If ScriptTown::FoundTown fails to generate a new random town name, don't bother sending a command, but fail immediately.
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18:39<Wolf01>'night all
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20:21<mek42>hiyas, new player, having trouble getting docks to work
20:22<Lizz>what's the problem? can't build them? can't send things to them?
20:23<mek42>can't load stuff - does the yates cargo ship carry only goods or anything other than pax and oil?
20:24<mek42>(pax = passengers, sometimes i make up my own shorthand and forget what is me and what is therest of the world)
20:24<+glx>pax is known here ;)
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20:26<+glx>yate cargo ship can carry 160 units of Mail, Coal, Livestock, Goods, Grain, Wood, Iron ore, Steel, Valuables
20:26<mek42>so, i built a dock, which said it supplied grain and livestock when i built it, but now nothing. i even added a couple land terminals to make sure the farms were in range, but nothing
20:27<+glx>you just need to refit it
20:27<mek42>oh, ok, let me try that
20:28<Lizz>yeah that's important to remember
20:28<Lizz>come back when you've had a train running several years but not carrying anything because you didn't refit it properly
20:31<mek42>now to hit the wiki to figure out how to refit something
20:31<+glx>http://wiki.openttd.org/Refit <-- this page ;)
20:36<mek42>got it, tyvm!
20:37<mek42>for future refernce, what is the minimum size for a town to accept goods?
20:37<+glx>it's not the size, it's the different buildings in acceptance area
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20:39<+glx>commercial buildings start to appear when population is above 500
20:41<mek42>ah, ok, tyvm
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21:08<mek42>well, despite the large amount of smoke coming out of the engines,my plane made it to the next airport for maintenance and did not crash
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21:59<mek42>does anyone have a good link for where i can read about switching? i'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around it
22:06<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of switching?
22:06<Eddi|zuHause>smoke only makes the plane slow, it does not increase crash chance.
22:07<mek42>right now i know nothing about any kind of switching
22:07<mek42>in fact, i might be getting confused with different articles talking about different switching
22:12<Eddi|zuHause>but you are talking about railways, right? :p
22:13<Eddi|zuHause>maybe this helps: http://uwe.s2000.at/ttdx/signal/index.php?lang=en&filter=ottd
22:13<Pinkbeast>mek42: Are signals the issue?
22:13<Pinkbeast>Eddi|zuHause: Urrr, that's pre-PBS...
22:14<mek42>yeah, i'm trying to figure out how to share rail between multiple trains
22:15<mek42>i think it will be simple once i get it, but i've got a mental block right now
22:15<Pinkbeast>mek42: Moving in the same direction?
22:15<Eddi|zuHause>http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals#Path_Signals
22:16<mek42>i'd like to get a general understanding so i know when i want to use one way or two way systems
22:16<Pinkbeast>And http://wiki.openttd.org/Tutorial/Two_Platforms http://wiki.openttd.org/Tutorial/Two_Tracks http://wiki.openttd.org/Tutorial/Basic_Network
22:17<Eddi|zuHause>you use two-way signals if you only have a single track, or at stations that should be reached from both sides. you use one-way signals if you have at least 2 tracks
22:17<Pinkbeast>mek42: 95% of the time in OTTD, trains will only move in one direction down a given piece of track. There's no efficient way for trains moving in both directions to use a long single piece of track.
22:21<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you find this "walkthrough" helpful: http://uwe.s2000.at/ttdx/tutorial/freight.php?lang=en
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22:26<mek42>reading the freight tutorial, tyvm!
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---Logclosed Tue Jan 21 00:00:38 2014